5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 3041 Old 03-12-2007, 07:14 PM
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also if you can add processing to a 5.1 signal through HDMI then how could it not also add bass management, etc to a 7.1 signal. That doesn't make sense. The sony clearly states upto 8 channels of uncompressed audio.
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post #1352 of 3041 Old 03-12-2007, 10:17 PM
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My Denon 3806 handles 7.1 PCM over HDMI. I updated the firmware a few weeks ago which enabled that. Prior to the firware update it would only handle 5.1 pcm over HDMI. No need to use the analog inputs with the 3806. It has two HDMI inputs. I run the the HDMI from my PS3 through a Connectgear HDMI splitter and send one output to the 3806 for audio and the other to a VP50 for Video. I use the second HDMI input on the 3806 for audio from my VP50 which also runs through an HDMI splitter sending the other output to my Samsung display. Bottom line is the 3806 sounds excellent with audio over HDMI. It applies DPLIIx processing to 5.1 and lower. For 6.1 discrete and 7.1 it doesn't apply DPLIIx processing which it doesn't need to.
My HDMI output from my HD-A2 HD DVD player goes into my VP50. Without the VP 50 you can just run it staright into the 3806 HDMI input or get an HDMI switch if you have more HDMI sources. The Monoprice Splitter works well with my HD TiVos, but thsoe also go to my VP50 before going to my 3806.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowtrooper1966 View Post

Greetings!
Thanks all who have contributed positively to this very informative thread! I have read the entire 45 pages of posts, and at times, my CPU was in danger of crashing
I have purchased a Samsung HL-S6187W 61" DLP, a Toshiba HD XA2 HD DVD player and a Denon AVR 3806.
My main goal is to get the best possible picure, and to take advantage of the advanced audio codecs available with HD DVD.
I will be having a ISF calibrator coming over to work his magic, so the TV will be calibrated to each input source (HD DVD, Dish Network HD DVR 611, cable) which will preclude me from hooking up each source to the Denon 3806 and the to the Samsung via single HDMI interface.
Being a big fan of as direct a signal path as possible, this vexes me a bit, but the trade off in picture quality obtained by the TV calibrated to each input source should outweigh the benefit of singal HDMI connection.
From my understanding, I have two options for hooking up the Toshiba XA2 to the Denon 3806:

1) Use the 8 channel analog outs of the XA2 to the Denon 3806
or
2) Find a high quality HDMI switch/spiltter

The problem with #1, I am not sure the 3806 will do advanced digital signal processing via the 8 channel analogs. After two conversations with Denon tech, I have two differnt answers. One said yes, DSP is available, and second says no, signal will just be pass through. Maybe I should call one more time and see who breaks the tie

Seriously, I want to use the DSP funstions of the 3806 AVR, not the ones built into the XA2, as I belive the Denon's to be far more flexible, if not superior. I am leaning towards believing that the 3806 DOES NOT process analog 8 in. That seems to be a function of the THX certified (part of that certification requirement) Denon models 4806 and 5805, hence the severe increase in cost for those two units.

The problem with option 2 is finding a high quality switch. I have done zero research for them. Price really is not an object, as I will pay a premium to assure best signal. Nothing fancy, just a simple switch. I have two HDMI ins on the Denon and two on the Samsung, so think that two 1x2 switches (one for the Toshiba HD DVD) and one for the Dish Network 611 would do for now. However, sould I aquire more HDMI sources..........

I have not yet hooked all this stuff up, as I am at the tail end of a remodel that will house my new home theater. Not a dedicated room, just a living room. All this equipment is still in the boxes, just waiting for the day...

I was hoping someone here might have some advise or experience with my proposed setup, as well as where to start looking if the switch seems to be the answer.


Thanks in advance for your time and trouble...
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966@hotmail.com


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post #1353 of 3041 Old 03-12-2007, 11:27 PM
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Yes, by "processing" I mean DSP, base management, etc. PLIIx is great, don't get me wrong and I use it deliberately as a matter of habit.

I can and have applied the Denon DSP to 7.1 LPCM coming from my PS3.

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post #1354 of 3041 Old 03-13-2007, 08:00 PM
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Can anyone please confirm that the sony will or will not add processing to a 6.1 or 7.1 LPCM signal.
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post #1355 of 3041 Old 03-14-2007, 07:03 AM
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I'm looking at the Sony DG1000 or the Denon 887.
Which would you guys go with?

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post #1356 of 3041 Old 03-14-2007, 07:48 AM
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Wow, this forum has never made me this angry before. Now on the 5200es owners thread they are saying that the 5200 wont apply ANY processing to a LPCM signal and that there is no way to get my back surrounds playing from a 5.1 LPCM signal. Is there anyway to get a straight answer? Im sure calling Sony will be no help as the customer support probobly doesn't even know what HDMI is.
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post #1357 of 3041 Old 03-14-2007, 09:16 AM
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I called sony, and downloaded the manual and sony said, no it will not apply processing to LPCM from HDMI in. THe manual basically says that there is no processing applied to ANY PCM signal that is coming through the HDMI input. So how the hell is this a level 4 receiver? It clearly says no processing. ex. PLIIx on PCM signals connected through the HDMI input. Do Sony themselves not know what their receiver is capable of? I guess I'll scratch the Sony of the list. Which brings me back to the Yamaha.

Can someone please confirm that the Yamaha 1700/6090 will be able to add processing to a PCM signal from the HDMI input. If it can then I will buy it.
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post #1358 of 3041 Old 03-14-2007, 10:03 AM
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At least you found out before you bought it
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post #1359 of 3041 Old 03-14-2007, 10:15 AM
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While I understand your frustration, I think the better place to check would be the relevent owners' threads (if any). This thread is more of a guideline with the repository of known behavior a potential feature that could be added (with the appropriate PM/request to the OP). Otherwise, it would probably be appreciated if YOU could investigate the issue and report in.

From your latest post, it does sound like the 5200ES may be level 4 instead of level 5, though that seems to conflict with some other reports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

4) 7.1 receivers that provide SPDIF, 7.1 analog input channels, 5.1 HDMI PCM but can't perform surround processing on PCM digital sources.
Examples: Onkyo 604 and higher. Panasonic XR700 (7.1 HDMI PCM). Sony STRDG1000 (7.1 HDMI PCM).

5) Level 4 receivers that allow all three processing types on uncompressed lossless 5.1 HDMI PCM formats.
Examples: HK 645 and higher. Marantz SR7001 and higher. Sony 5200ES.


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post #1360 of 3041 Old 03-14-2007, 10:41 AM
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I have an onkyo 804 and yes, it will not apply DSP to a 5.1 LPCM signal. On the BRD Casion Royale, the DD track sounds great, and the LPCM, without any DSP, sounds a little muffled (strong bass, but a little muffled in the middle).

I don't know if I should consider this a deal breaker. This receiver seems great for everything else (I have a 5.1 setuup). I have like 2 days before my return window closes...any suggestions? Or am I just overreacting?

Nth
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post #1361 of 3041 Old 03-14-2007, 10:47 AM
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Whenever the manual mentions DSP processing like sony cinema modes or its SB decoding or PL2x the manual (ex. pg. 67) mentions this in the notes section:

This function does not work in the following cases. (it also mention Multi Ch input and a few other parameters)

"The Multi-Channel PCM signals are received via an HDMI IN jack."
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post #1362 of 3041 Old 03-14-2007, 04:13 PM
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The Yamaha 1700 and up will add PL2x to and PCM signal over HDMI

This is from the Yamaha 1700/ 2700 thread: (Charles R )

"We auditioned this AV receiver as it was supposed to fully support HDMI audio by supporting up to 7.1 channels, allowing its sound processing to be applied all the way up to Dolby Digital PLIIx, and handle LFE without any issues. With the help of Toshiba's HD-A2 and the Sony PS3 the receiver quickly passed all three tests with ease. Which is rare with most of today's AV receivers"


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ht=YAMAHA+1700
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post #1363 of 3041 Old 03-15-2007, 02:45 PM
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What level receiver would the RX-V661 be? I am really hoping to create a some what budget system with PS3 as the BD player and my HTPC as a HD-DVD player. According to others the Yamaha 1700 is perfect when it comes to dealing with 7.1PCM over HDMI. So should I expect the same with the 661?

Thanks in Advance.

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post #1364 of 3041 Old 03-15-2007, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ky22 View Post

What level receiver would the RX-V661 be? I am really hoping to create a some what budget system with PS3 as the BD player and my HTPC as a HD-DVD player. According to others the Yamaha 1700 is perfect when it comes to dealing with 7.1PCM over HDMI. So should I expect the same with the 661?

Thanks in Advance.

The 661 & 861 should be on the same level as the 1700. All of these receivers use hdmi 1.2a. Usually when a receiver is implemented with hdmi 1.2a it handles 7.1 LPCM with no problems. It should also allow post processing on 5.1 LPCM sources, I would be shocked if it didn't.

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post #1365 of 3041 Old 03-15-2007, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nth Degree View Post

I have an onkyo 804 and yes, it will not apply DSP to a 5.1 LPCM signal. On the BRD Casion Royale, the DD track sounds great, and the LPCM, without any DSP, sounds a little muffled (strong bass, but a little muffled in the middle).

I don't know if I should consider this a deal breaker. This receiver seems great for everything else (I have a 5.1 setuup). I have like 2 days before my return window closes...any suggestions? Or am I just overreacting?

Nth

Hmm. I have the 803 and the PCM track on "Casino Royale" sounds a lot better, no to mention much more powerful than the DD track.

BTW: for some peculiar reason Sony encoded the DD track at 448kbps instead of the normal 640. The *French* track is 640...

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post #1366 of 3041 Old 03-16-2007, 02:10 PM
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Can someone please help me. I have a Philips BDP9000 blu-ray player and a Toshiba HD-XA2 hd-dvd player going hdmi into a Denon AVR-2807. For some reason the Blu-ray player seems to be lacking in bass but the HD-DVD player sounds fine. Is it because the hd-dvd player has it's own built-in bass management and the blu-ray player doesn't. I have a Mirage S12 subwoofer that I have set-up to bypass it's internal crossover to allow the receiver to do the bass management. If I activate the crossover in the sub will that improve the bass for PCM sources? If I'm thinking correctly the receiver does not do bass management for LPCM sources, it's done in the player, correct? And if there is no bass managment in the player I can then use the bass management in the Subwoofer, is this right?

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post #1367 of 3041 Old 03-17-2007, 10:26 AM
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I have a question. I have an older Pioneer receiver that only does Dolby digital 5.1 though coax or optical out. I have a PS3 that puts out audio through the Optical out and on some Blue-ray has only "HD audio". I am assuming I need to upgrade my receiver to get the full effect of this audio output. I only have a 5.1 speaker setup at this time I do not have a center surround.
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post #1368 of 3041 Old 03-17-2007, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Wow, this forum has never made me this angry before. Now on the 5200es owners thread they are saying that the 5200 wont apply ANY processing to a LPCM signal and that there is no way to get my back surrounds playing from a 5.1 LPCM signal. Is there anyway to get a straight answer? Im sure calling Sony will be no help as the customer support probobly doesn't even know what HDMI is.

lrstevens421 misinformed this thread that the 5200ES (3200ES) would apply processing to PCM over HDMI. All Sony receivers are now listed in the proper level 4 category. As another poster mentioned, be happy you didn't purchase it yet!
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post #1369 of 3041 Old 03-17-2007, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

lrstevens421 misinformed this thread that the 5200ES (3200ES) would apply processing to PCM over HDMI. All Sony receivers are now listed in the proper level 4 category. As another poster mentioned, be happy you didn't purchase it yet!

Call Sony and speak to level II tech support. I know it will do it on the 3200 but bickering will get us nowhere.

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post #1370 of 3041 Old 03-17-2007, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

I called sony, and downloaded the manual and sony said, no it will not apply processing to LPCM from HDMI in. THe manual basically says that there is no processing applied to ANY PCM signal that is coming through the HDMI input. So how the hell is this a level 4 receiver? It clearly says no processing. ex. PLIIx on PCM signals connected through the HDMI input. Do Sony themselves not know what their receiver is capable of? I guess I'll scratch the Sony of the list. Which brings me back to the Yamaha.

Can someone please confirm that the Yamaha 1700/6090 will be able to add processing to a PCM signal from the HDMI input. If it can then I will buy it.

When you call Sony they have no idea what's going on, it's usually some college girl just trying to hold down a job. Ask to speak to level II support, it's a hassel but it works.

I really don't remember the Sony not being able to do it. In the last year I've owned the Denon AVR-3806, Yamah RX-V1600, Panasonic SA-XR57, Onkyo TX-SR604, Sony 3200ES and now finally a Denon AVR-2807. It been a bit of a blur, so if I was wrong, I apologize.

Nevertheless, it's worth giving level II support a call.

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post #1371 of 3041 Old 03-17-2007, 04:57 PM
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After reviewing the manual I think I remember how to do it. You cannot press the A.F.D button while receiving a LPCM signal but you can configure the back speakers to always to PL2X MV in the speaker set-up menu. In the speaker set-up menu there's an option to configue the back speakers to always be on as PLIIX.

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post #1372 of 3041 Old 03-19-2007, 06:29 PM
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From http://www.twice.com/article/CA6423493.html(Mar. 17,2007

(Denon) receivers will support a plethora of formats including Windows Media, XM, HDMI, Simplay HD, FLAC, Wi-Fi, CI (Custom Integration), DLNA, iPod, HD Radio, Audyssey ---- the Denon receiver will be "the first, or one of the first" to introduce Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and dts-HD Master Audio later this year. And Zarow added, "Marantz will follow soon after. Eventually all D&M brands will support it." D&M A/V receivers will have expanded multisource, multizone or whole-house audio/video capabilities, with enhanced Ethernet connectivity and Wi-Fi/USB connectivity. The company's A/V receivers, preamp-processor and system solutions for this year will feature HDMI 1.3 inputs and outputs. All will support 36-bit deep color, 1,080p pass-through, and most will support eight-channel 24-bit/96kHz uncompressed PCM audio and some will support HD Surround formats. The A/V receiver model range will be expanded to feature onboard 1,080p scaling and analog to HDMI conversion, while all of D&M's DVD players will feature 1,080p up-scaling this year. And finally for custom installers and their customers, D&M will improve its custom integration features enabling remote maintenance or provide software upgrades via the Internet by installers. "Installers won't have to go on site. They can test and upgrade remotely, which will save them money," Talmadge said. The improved program will also be introduced this summer with multiple models, he noted.

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post #1373 of 3041 Old 03-19-2007, 07:57 PM
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Many of the current models already support 8 channel 96khz pcm. I know my 3806 does after I upgraded the firmware. It also supports 1080P passthrough but I'd rather have an external scaler than my receiver doing it. I believe my 3806 also does analog to HDMI conversion if I enable it, but I don't have any analog devices I use with my 3806.

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post #1374 of 3041 Old 03-20-2007, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrstevens421 View Post

Call Sony and speak to level II tech support. I know it will do it on the 3200 but bickering will get us nowhere.

I'll just make it simple. Until someone can actually confirm it by using the receiver (and the person appears to know what they're doing), then I'll give it the level 5 designation. I won't move a receiver up a level based on calls made to the manufacturer.
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post #1375 of 3041 Old 03-21-2007, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

I'll just make it simple. Until someone can actually confirm it by using the receiver (and the person appears to know what they're doing), then I'll give it the level 5 designation. I won't move a receiver up a level based on calls made to the manufacturer.

Well Lindahl, since we're being "technical" about it; I never asked you to move it up a level, I was merely trying to help a fellow avs'r. Considering this is not a Sony thread it's probably just worth it to the title of the thread.

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post #1376 of 3041 Old 03-31-2007, 09:53 PM
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Audiooldhand,

Do you know what Denon's release dates for these new AVRs is?

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post #1377 of 3041 Old 04-02-2007, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Audiooldhand,

Do you know what Denon's release dates for these new AVRs is?

I'm also very excited about the new Denon recievers. Anyone have any release dates?
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post #1378 of 3041 Old 04-02-2007, 02:40 PM
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Announcements have been very light on the details (both technical and temporal). Very tentative dates are:

AVR-4308ci: July
AVR-3808ci: July
AVR-2808: September
AVR-1708: September
AVR-1508: September

...pulled from here.

Personally, there are no new features yet announced that really have me thinking that I should wait versus just getting a 2807 now, but that is based on my particular requirements.
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post #1379 of 3041 Old 04-03-2007, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little_donkey View Post

But that means that the Sony receivers (3200-5200) are Level 5 receivers and not 4?
Can someone confirm this?


About the STR-DA5200ES, come over to the owners thread. We can assure you that this is a level 4 box. There has been some rumbling of a firmnware update, but IMHO we will se a 5250 or 5300 instead.

Sony in the past has made minor hardware changes (& changed the model number slightly) instead of updating existing kit.

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post #1380 of 3041 Old 04-03-2007, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

So you want to pay for TrueHD when it's already decoded in the player?


Gary this can not be stressed enough. It is better to have the processing done in the player & sent out LPCM.

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