5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 3041 Old 11-11-2006, 12:20 PM
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HDMI 1.3 is backward compatible with all prior HDMI versions, so that should not be a problem as far a working with HDMI 1.1 or 1.2, but obviously you will be limited to the features of lower version of implementation in your setup.
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post #182 of 3041 Old 11-11-2006, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetwoodguy79 View Post

Ok, this may be a dumb question.

I have been holding out on a new receiver until the addition of HDMI 1.3 I have a 1080p 1.3 compatible set, and have the Toshiba XA-2 on preorder from ****************.

Since it looks as if receivers that are already out can pass true 7.1 uncompressed PCM audio (TrueHD etc...) via 1.1 and 1.2, is it pointless waiting for a 1.3 receiver? My only problem is that if my output of the HDDVD player is 1.3, the receiver is 1.1/1.2, does that mean I'm only getting 1.1/1.2 back to my TV set? Or is there HDMI video passthrough on the receivers to allow the 1.3 standard to pass? I know there is a new video standard that is allowed with 1.3, and that is why I was waiting for it. Not to mention, I would love to enjoy true 1080p resolution. Thoughts anyone?

I'll take a shot at the answer. From what I have read, the issue is one of which device does the decoding. An excerpt from an article here http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles...part_5_-_a.php

"Hi Def DVD, Using HDMI for Audio

"In September 2005, Dolby announced that A/V receivers capable of processing PCM over their HDMI 1.1 inputs should also be able to have sufficient bandwidth to accept the HD video and the PCM multi-channel audio decoded by the Hi-def DVD player.

"Any HDMI suited A/V receiver should be capable to input the PCM and reproduce the higher bandwidth of the soundtracks. Initially, it was believed that those HDMI 1.1 suited A/V receivers would have to use analog cables from the multi-channel audio connectors (as with DVD-Audio), and wait until specification version 1.3 of HDMI be completed (and eventually change to a 1.3 compliant A/V receiver).

"According to Dolby, there should be no need to replace a receiver suited with HDMI 1.1 to get the benefit of the higher-bit audio formats. However, when using the latest HDMI version 1.3 from player to receiver, the decoding would not have to happen in the player, the connection would stream the native mandatory and optional audio formats to the HDMI 1.3 suited A/V receiver, which would perform the decoding job."

Also, note Kris Deering's comments above indicating that a receiver with HDMI 1.1 should get the job done.

Dana

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post #183 of 3041 Old 11-11-2006, 12:39 PM
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Also, note the comment here (in bold) in the outline of the HDMI 1.3 spec.

"HDMI 1.3

"Released 22 June 2006.[1] [2]

"* Increases single-link bandwidth to 340 Mhz (10.2 Gbps)
"* Supports 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths or over one billion colors, up from 24-bit in previous versions.
"* Supports xvYCC color standards.
"* Incorporates automatic audio syncing (lip sync) capability.
"* Supports output of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio streams for external decoding by AV receivers.[3] TrueHD and DTS-HD are lossless audio codec formats used on HD DVDs and Blu-ray Discs. If the disk player can decode these streams into uncompressed audio, then HDMI 1.3 is not necessary, as all versions of HDMI can transport uncompressed audio.
"* Availability of a new mini connector for devices such as camcorders.[4]"

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

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post #184 of 3041 Old 11-11-2006, 05:22 PM
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Hi Dana,

Couple of small clarifications to the sources you quoted:
Quote:


In his review of the Samsung BD-P1000 blu-ray player, Kris Deering offers this comment on HDMI for audio.

"The analog multi-channel outputs also support this soundtrack but they lack the ability to do time alignment and channel level balancing. The only option available is bass management. This is a HUGE oversight by Samsung. Proper channel balancing and time alignment are CRUCIAL for proper playback of multi-channel sound."

In theory it may seem like a "HUGE" problem, but in reality it isn't as bad a Kris is making it out to be.

Current HT gear does time alignment down to half a foot, which is nice for a solitary listener locked exactly in the sweet spot. But for everyone else watching the movie, or if the listener moves his head six inches, those delays aren't doing much good.

As for channel level balancing, that's done in the receiver during initial calibration and is not needed in the player. Each channel's level is set by an analogue volume contol in the receiver. These are ganged together and controlled simultaneously by the large main volume knob. Since volume levels are controlled in the analogue domain, initially calibrated channel balance applies to the analogue multi-channel inputs too.
Quote:


An excerpt from an article here http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles...part_5_-_a.php

"However, when using the latest HDMI version 1.3 from player to receiver, the decoding would not have to happen in the player, the connection would stream the native mandatory and optional audio formats to the HDMI 1.3 suited A/V receiver, which would perform the decoding job."

That depends on the way the soundtrack was authored. If authored in Basic mode, then the native bitstream can be transmitted via a HDMI 1.3 connection. If authored in Advanced mode (for on-the-fly mixing of audio: button sounds, commentary tracks, foreign languages, etc), then the decoding will still have to take place in the player and cannot be transmitted natively, even with HDMI 1.3.

So far I think all soundtracks have been authored in the Advanced mode. So even when HDMI 1.3 arrives, decoding would still have to happen in the player for most soundtracks, despite what hdtvmagazine.com says.

Sanjay

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post #185 of 3041 Old 11-11-2006, 06:28 PM
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So do we have confirmation that the Marantz SR4001 is the only low priced receiver so far that processes surround sound over HDMI?

For me there would be no other choices then.

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post #186 of 3041 Old 11-11-2006, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

So do we have confirmation that the Marantz SR4001 is the only low priced receiver so far that processes surround sound over HDMI?

No, there has been no such confirmation (see the first post). According to the manual, the SR4001 and SR5001 cannot perform surround processing on multi-channel PCM, only stereo PCM. You'll have to move up to the SR7001. You can call to ask if the manual is wrong, but no one has done so yet. They will do bass management and other simple processing on multi-channel PCM (someone called about that), but that doesn't mean it will do surround processing.
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post #187 of 3041 Old 11-11-2006, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

So do we have confirmation that the Marantz SR4001 is the only low priced receiver so far that processes surround sound over HDMI?

For me there would be no other choices then.

I ordered SR4001 and Oppo 970HD last week. So, you'll soon hear confirmed information.
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post #188 of 3041 Old 11-11-2006, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

So do we have confirmation that the Marantz SR4001 is the only low priced receiver so far that processes surround sound over HDMI?

what do you mean by "process"?

Boo!
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post #189 of 3041 Old 11-11-2006, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold View Post

what do you mean by "process"?

What I mean is that I am able to take the sound from HDMI and use it for standard PLII, DTS, etc. Or am I confused on what you can do with HDMI 1.1 sound?

OK, so I think someone else answered my question...As I understand it...I should be able to do PLII on stereo sources, but I will still have to feed the 4001 with a SPDIF input for all other surround? (Which makes it all very confusing).

So it seems the 4001 is equivalent to the Onkyo TX-SR604 in this regard?

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post #190 of 3041 Old 11-11-2006, 10:18 PM
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no Lindahl's answer was for the incoming multichannel LPCM stream (already decoded) and its probably treated like the analog multichannel input and does not go thru processing. normal DD and DTS should pass through HDMI unmolested to be decoded by the receiver - although we need a peek into the manual for this, as some receivers seem to require the optical digital connection for these older formats.

Boo!
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post #191 of 3041 Old 11-12-2006, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold View Post

no Lindahl's answer was for the incoming multichannel LPCM stream (already decoded) and its probably treated like the analog multichannel input and does not go thru processing. normal DD and DTS should pass through HDMI unmolested to be decoded by the receiver - although we need a peek into the manual for this, as some receivers seem to require the optical digital connection for these older formats.

The manuals for the 4100 don't say anything about this, which is why people say they are waiting to receive their units before they come to a conclusion.

I guess once the PS3 and other lower priced HD-DVD and BD players arrive we should see more lower end HDMI 1.1/1.2 supporting receivers.

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post #192 of 3041 Old 11-12-2006, 02:53 PM
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Re: using the PS3 as a BD player with a current generation HDMI receiver. Does the PS3 decode any of the new lossless audio formats? Because if it doesn't, then I take it you will need an HDMI 1.3 receiver to do the decoding? Or am I missing something?
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post #193 of 3041 Old 11-13-2006, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

What one do you have?

I have the Denon A1-SR (+upgrade from Denon)
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post #194 of 3041 Old 11-13-2006, 05:29 AM
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@sdurani:
Thanks for your reply from 11-10-06, 07:25 PM. So IF my receiver will be able to make the signal (that comes via the 7.1 component outputs from a HD/BR player to my 7.1 input) digital via an ADC, than I can still apply room correction, BM, TA, and other DSPs to the signal and make advantage of my high end Denon receiver? And as this works I will get THE EXACT SAME SQ (soundquality) as someone with HDMI input on their receiver. How can I find out if my Denon has ADC on the 7.1 input and how can I find out how good that ADC is?


@Lindahl (or sdurani :
Is it so that all the current receivers on the market with HDMI inputs can receive the lossless format or has the HDMI input has got to have some conditions before able to receive this signal?
IF all the receivers with HDMI inputs can do this job, than why is this thread been made with levels of receivers for the future? Probably I still do not see some things but maybe you guys will not be angry at me and can again take a look at my post and explain (not too technical ) why this thread has been made.........
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post #195 of 3041 Old 11-13-2006, 08:06 AM
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Sander,
Quote:
IF my receiver will be able to make the signal (that comes via the 7.1 component outputs from a HD/BR player to my 7.1 input) digital via an ADC, than I can still apply room correction, BM, TA, and other DSPs to the signal and make advantage of my high end Denon receiver?

Correct. Once the signal is in the digital domain, you can treat it just like any other digital signal and use all the functionality of your receiver.
Quote:
And as this works I will get THE EXACT SAME SQ (soundquality) as someone with HDMI input on their receiver.

Almost. You'll get the same functionality, not the same sound quality. Someone using the HDMI connection is sending the signal digitally to the receiver, thereby avoiding two conversion steps: D/A in the player and A/D in the receiver. Theoretically, each step has the potential to degrade the sound, though in practice the difference may end up being small or inaudible.
Quote:
How can I find out if my Denon has ADC on the 7.1 input and how can I find out how good that ADC is?

The instruction manual should tell you whether it does A/D conversion of the multi-channel analogue inputs. The only way you can judge the quality of the A/D conversion is by listening for yourself.
Quote:
Is it so that all the current receivers on the market with HDMI inputs can receive the lossless format or has the HDMI input has got to have some conditions before able to receive this signal?

Technically, the receiver isn't getting a "lossless format". It's receiving uncompressed PCM over HDMI. The term "lossless" usually refers to the signal being compressed without any bits being discarder (i.e., data packing).

Even amongst receivers that have the same version of HDMI, functionality varies. Some receivers act like simple switchers, routing the signal you selected but not doing anything with the audio. Others accept only 2-channel hi-resolution audio over HDMI. Still others are limited to 5.1 channels while some boast 7.1-channel input capability. That's the reason for this thread.
Quote:
Probably I still do not see some things but maybe you guys will not be angry at me and can again take a look at my post and explain (not too technical ) why this thread has been made.........

Sander, you should never worry about anyone here getting angry at you. You're asking valid questions, and the answers help other people too. So keep asking, until the concepts are clear to you.

Sanjay

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post #196 of 3041 Old 11-13-2006, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

...Sander, you should never worry about anyone here getting angry at you. You're asking valid questions, and the answers help other people too. So keep asking, until the concepts are clear to you.

Sanjay

My compliments to you, Sir. A wonderful response that should be posted on every thread.

Dana

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post #197 of 3041 Old 11-13-2006, 08:19 AM
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Can anyone help me out here please? I'm very interested in buying the Harman/kardon AVR 445 which is below the 645. Well I want to now if it will accept LPCM tracks from an HD DVD player thru the HDMI input? Thanks!


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post #198 of 3041 Old 11-13-2006, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJ25 View Post

Can anyone help me out here please? I'm very interested in buying the Harman/kardon AVR 445 which is below the 645. Well I want to now if it will accept LPCM tracks from an HD DVD player thru the HDMI input? Thanks!

You might want to read reliability reports about those receivers on this forum. A large number of people are having trouble getting any audio signal over HDMI. Personally, I'd wait for the next generation HK HDMI receivers, or choose another manufacturer. Marantz has a similiar tonality (thought a bit more exaggerated).
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post #199 of 3041 Old 11-13-2006, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

I have the Denon A1-SR (+upgrade from Denon)

I'm not familiar with that one, so I don't know if it converts analog inputs to digital for processing or not. I think the 4806 and the 5805 do.
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post #200 of 3041 Old 11-14-2006, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl View Post

You might want to read reliability reports about those receivers on this forum. A large number of people are having trouble getting any audio signal over HDMI. Personally, I'd wait for the next generation HK HDMI receivers, or choose another manufacturer. Marantz has a similiar tonality (thought a bit more exaggerated).


what about the Denon receivers that you can buy at this moment? Are they fully compatible to output 7.1?
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post #201 of 3041 Old 11-14-2006, 02:55 AM
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just got off the phone with the tech.support of Denon here in the Netherlands. He told me that is isn t possible to make DSP changes and that everything has to be done by the player........
I didn t like this answer so I searched for a munual of my A1-SR on the internet. Didn't found it, but found the manual for the AVR-5803 which is the USA variant of the A1-SRA from europe. I found something on page 44 about the 7.1 input. I m not sure what is explained there but my feeling says it looks likes the guy from Denon told me the wrong thing and that there IS an ADC after the 7.1 input. Can someone comfirm this thought of me and take a look at page 44 in the manual?

http://usa.denon.com/AVR5803_ownersmanual.pdf
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post #202 of 3041 Old 11-14-2006, 03:32 AM
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sdurani,
thanks for your very well written reply again. Every post it gets clearer for me how everything works/will work in the near future.
So, can I make the conclusion that best thing to do for me is find out how the quality is of the ADC in my Denon and after this look for players in the near future with a good quality DAC? If I can find a good match between those and this way make no consessions on quality between this and HDMI, than I will be able with my Denon to play TrueHD and also in a 7.1 setup? (I now have a 7.1 setup with 4x rears B&W 705. My Denon does some things now with a 5.1 track to make it some kind of Matrix).

Little off topic:
I now have the 7.1 setup like I said. What does happen when I play a dvd that has a 6.1 audio stream on it? are my 2 back surrounds produce both the same singnal?
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post #203 of 3041 Old 11-14-2006, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

just got off the phone with the tech.support of Denon here in the Netherlands. He told me that is isn t possible to make DSP changes and that everything has to be done by the player........
I didn t like this answer so I searched for a munual of my A1-SR on the internet. Didn't found it, but found the manual for the AVR-5803 which is the USA variant of the A1-SRA from europe. I found something on page 44 about the 7.1 input. I m not sure what is explained there but my feeling says it looks likes the guy from Denon told me the wrong thing and that there IS an ADC after the 7.1 input. Can someone comfirm this thought of me and take a look at page 44 in the manual?

http://usa.denon.com/AVR5803_ownersmanual.pdf

I think you are correct. Also note paragraph 15 on page 6. (The Adobe document does not support copying text.)

Dana

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post #204 of 3041 Old 11-14-2006, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

I think you are correct. Also note paragraph 15 on page 6.
Dana

Yes, you are right. The text on page 6 (#15) confirms it.

The text in #15, says "A/D converters are provided for each channel for digital down-mixing compatibility". It was referring to all 8 channels (7.1)
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post #205 of 3041 Old 11-14-2006, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

can I make the conclusion that best thing to do for me is find out how the quality is of the ADC in my Denon and after this look for players in the near future with a good quality DAC?

Try this: connect your player to two different inputs on your receiver (for example: VCR and CD). Connect one with a digital connection, hook up the other with a stereo analogue connection.

Play a well recorded CD in stereo/2-channel mode. Switch between the two inputs and listen carefully. One of those connections will have extra D/A and A/D steps in the signal path. If you can't hear the difference (or it is extremely small), you'll know that the ADCs in your receiver are of good quality.

Also, don't worry about the quality of the DACs in the player. The analogue outputs will be digitized to PCM anyway. So the only DACs you'll really be hearing will be the ones in your receiver.
Quote:


If I can find a good match between those and this way make no consessions on quality between this and HDMI, than I will be able with my Denon to play TrueHD and also in a 7.1 setup?

If your receiver's A/D converters are transparent to your ears, then the quality will be close to the HDMI connection. Sending the signal directly will still have the advantage because you are avoiding the two extra D/A and A/D steps. Whether you can hear that difference is another story.
Quote:


(I now have a 7.1 setup with 4x rears B&W 705. My Denon does some things now with a 5.1 track to make it some kind of Matrix).

Your Denon extracts surround information that would have phantom imaged behind you, and sends it to the rear speakers. Nothing more complicated than that.
Quote:


I now have the 7.1 setup like I said. What does happen when I play a dvd that has a 6.1 audio stream on it? are my 2 back surrounds produce both the same singnal?

Yes, with 6.1 sources (or when using EX/ES decoding), the two rear speakers get the same mono signal.

Sanjay

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post #206 of 3041 Old 11-14-2006, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

what about the Denon receivers that you can buy at this moment? Are they fully compatible to output 7.1?

See the first post.
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post #207 of 3041 Old 11-14-2006, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

but found the manual for the AVR-5803 which is the USA variant of the A1-SRA from europe. I found something on page 44 about the 7.1 input. I m not sure what is explained there but my feeling says it looks likes the guy from Denon told me the wrong thing and that there IS an ADC after the 7.1 input. Can someone comfirm this thought of me and take a look at page 44 in the manual?

According to Audioholic's A/V Processor/Receiver Comparison Checklist Summary Chart (http://www.audioholics.com/productre...compared01.php), Denon AVR-5803 and 5805 apply ADC to its analog 7.1 input because they can digitally bass-manage the signals. Only very few receivers/processors support this function (of course, all of them apply ADC to analog 2 ch input).

Also click on Audioholic's explanation of this function. It says:

"Optional Digital Bass Management for 7.1 Inputs Bonus Feature
This is a very useful feature when using a Universal DVD player lacking a high resolution digital interface (i.e. IEEE 1394) for transmission of DVD-A/SACD. It allows for the incoming signal to be run through an analogue to digital converter so that proper bass management and digital delay compensation can be made for these formats. We have found that with top-quality DACs, there is no audible loss of resolution or quality from the conversion."

It is Denon 5803 and 5805 that use top-quality DACs.

-Jay
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post #208 of 3041 Old 11-14-2006, 08:11 PM
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Ok guys,

I have read through the thread. Can you guys give me choices on receivers that are basically level 5 (I don't need 7.1 outputs)? I am really interested in BM for Magnepan speakers!

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post #209 of 3041 Old 11-15-2006, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_WJ View Post

According to Audioholic's A/V Processor/Receiver Comparison Checklist Summary Chart (http://www.audioholics.com/productre...compared01.php), Denon AVR-5803 and 5805 apply ADC to its analog 7.1 input because they can digitally bass-manage the signals. Only very few receivers/processors support this function (of course, all of them apply ADC to analog 2 ch input).

Also click on Audioholic's explanation of this function. It says:

"Optional Digital Bass Management for 7.1 Inputs Bonus Feature
This is a very useful feature when using a Universal DVD player lacking a high resolution digital interface (i.e. IEEE 1394) for transmission of DVD-A/SACD. It allows for the incoming signal to be run through an analogue to digital converter so that proper bass management and digital delay compensation can be made for these formats. We have found that with top-quality DACs, there is no audible loss of resolution or quality from the conversion."

It is Denon 5803 and 5805 that use top-quality DACs.

-Jay

This is great news for me! Now all I have to find out is if the 5803 is EXACTLY THE SAME as my AVC A1-SRA.........
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post #210 of 3041 Old 11-15-2006, 05:21 AM
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http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/why-does-d...nd-so-good.php

Don t understand this article. As I read this picture, you will need, HDMI 1.3 if you want DTS-HD master audio (24.5mbps). So am I eventually still f**** in the a**** and will I have to buy a forthcomming receiver with HDMI 1.3 or is 24.5mbpx also possible with an analogue ext. 7.1 input?
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