5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver - Page 94 - AVS Forum
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post #2791 of 3041 Old 05-14-2009, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raymondeast View Post

when referring to this

7.1 receivers that provide SPDIF, 5.1/7.1 analog inputs, and 7.1 HDMI PCM but can't perform surround processing on PCM digital sources.


what do yoy mean by pcm digital sources?

When the audio is decoded in the source player, the output on HDMI (up to 7.1) or S/PDIF (up to 2.0) is in PCM format.

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post #2792 of 3041 Old 05-17-2009, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

When the audio is decoded in the source player, the output on HDMI (up to 7.1) or S/PDIF (up to 2.0) is in PCM format.

ok can the yamaha htr 6180 do it? thanks

right now i have a pioneer 912k 6.1 receiver,if i upgrade to the yamaha will there be a huge difference in sound? of course it will be bluray
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post #2793 of 3041 Old 05-22-2009, 06:36 PM
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Hi,

Sorry for the n00b question, but I have been reading this forum and got really confused.

I have an ATI 4850 after reading the forums as been the preferred card.

Since I am happy with my new HTPC, the next project is my amp, I really want to it to support Vera as I have a Panasonic Plasma. I was originally looking at Panasonic amps, but in other sections I notice that Yamaha and Onkyo support Vera.

The real question is what is the preferred AMP for this kind of setup?

I read the Panasonic is a digital receiver, but also found that seating it up is not easy, as my issue is that my room is not very large, about 12 x 12 "feet", and my chair is against the back wall.

My understanding that the Yamahas are analogue so not recommended, and the Onkyo 606 has a few issues.

My main issue that I want this to be wife friendly, so when she changes video source audio source changes as well.
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post #2794 of 3041 Old 05-22-2009, 06:48 PM
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I do not see a question mark in there but here is one. Have you heard of spell checking?
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post #2795 of 3041 Old 05-22-2009, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIBBOYQ View Post

Hi,


Since I am happy with my new HTPC, the next project is my amp, I really want to it to support Vera as I have a Panasonic Plasma.

I thought Viera was simply a line of Panasonic TVs. Not sure what special to support them.

Quote:


I was originally looking at Panasonic amps, but in other sections I notice that Yamaha and Onkyo support Vera.

You mean receiver, not amp, I think. I am very familiar with Yamaha, and I know of nothing special they have done to support Panasonic TVs. Let me know what you need supported.

Quote:


I read the Panasonic is a digital receiver,

Note sure what you mean by "the" Panasonic. Maybe you could give a model number.

Quote:


My understanding that the Yamahas are analogue so not recommended, and the Onkyo 606 has a few issues.

Yes, Yamaha receivers are not class D, but that does not make them not recommended.

Quote:


My main issue that I want this to be wife friendly, so when she changes video source audio source changes as well.

What you need here, depends on what you are hooking up.

I don't think this post really makes send in this thread. I suggest reposting your request to a new thread in the same sub forum this thread is in. You should get more responses.

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post #2796 of 3041 Old 05-25-2009, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I do not see a question mark in there but here is one. Have you heard of spell checking?

I have a question. Why don't you be constructive
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post #2797 of 3041 Old 05-27-2009, 06:38 PM
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Looking for some advice. I currently employ a Harman Kardon AVR635 along with my Samsung PN58A550 TV, Sony PS3, Sony RDR-VX560 DVD/VCR, and Motorola DTC-3200 Cable Box. The PS3, DVD/VCR, and DTC-3200 all employ HDMI so I may be behind the curve. My family not being all that skilled in switching inputs and the new recievers doing that for you I feel the need to upgrade. Liking the sound from my Harman Kardon I was looking at the AVR 254 but do not see any Harman on anybodies top ten lists, and it might be a downgrade in actual sound compared to the 635. I see the AVR-254 selling on the Bay for ~$200, what else in that rough price range should I be looking at, and of course,... is there any advice out there for setting up a system such as this. Thanks!
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post #2798 of 3041 Old 05-27-2009, 07:19 PM
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Well you can pretty much forget about that price range and you still have to switch sources HDMI or not. Take a look at low/mid-level Denon or Onkyo. They have Audyssey Room EQ which is worth an upgrade on it's own merits. Or keep what you have and get a programmable remote like the Harmony which makes switching inputs easy.
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post #2799 of 3041 Old 05-30-2009, 12:34 PM
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I come here late in the game and don't have time to read 2800 posts to find an answer to my question (which I doubt has been asked anyway, which you will understand when you read the question), so here goes. If I am only interested in Dolby Digital Plus (5.1 or 7.1) and not Dolby TruHD or the other HD "lossless" codecs, and I have a Blu-Ray player (Panasonic BD-35) that will decode this format off a BD disc, can I get the DD+ sent to my SSP via SPDIF (coax or toslink) as PCM? And if so, will the SSP (Lexicon MC-4) process and give me the full fidelity of DD+ and not just downmix it to the more compressed plain DD? Thanks.

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post #2800 of 3041 Old 05-30-2009, 12:45 PM
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No.

Dolby Digital Plus can be had via one of these three methods. (this is not your best thread to ask this by the way.)

* Multi-channel analog outputs from a player with a DD+ decoder
* Multi-channel PCM over HDMI from a player with a DD+ decoder
* Bitstream DD+ over HDMI to a receiver with a DD+ decoder

DD+ is not real useful as most movies will not have it. I instead suggest two options.

1) Live with lossy from Blu-ray. See the stickied AVR FAQ for why this is true
2) Get a player/receiver combo that will support all lossless codecs. Typically people are buying either a PS3 or other player which decodes all soundtracks and using it with an HDMI receiver that can play back HDMI audio. OR get a player with bitstreams lossless and pair it with a receiver with TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoders.

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post #2801 of 3041 Old 05-30-2009, 04:33 PM
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I believe I have heard of about one Blu-ray with DD+. Some concert disc. Most DD Blu-rays have higher resolution audio than SD DVD though.
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post #2802 of 3041 Old 05-31-2009, 10:32 AM
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Does anyone know off hand what is currently the cheapest receiver that will accept multichannel LPCM via HDMI? I need a cheap receiver for my bedroom.
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post #2803 of 3041 Old 06-01-2009, 10:00 AM
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probably a used one or refurb. HK 247 refurb from HK ebay store (less than $200 shipped probably); or an entry-level model from the past couple of years like Yamaha RX-V463, Pio 918, Denon 1908 / 788, etc.

For the $300 range you can get a Marantz 4002 (refurb from a4less $299 shipped) or a newer entry-level model like Yammy RX-V465/565, Pio 819, the soon-to-be-released Denon AVR 590/1610, etc.

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post #2804 of 3041 Old 06-01-2009, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

No.

Dolby Digital Plus can be had via one of these three methods. (this is not your best thread to ask this by the way.)

* Multi-channel analog outputs from a player with a DD+ decoder
* Multi-channel PCM over HDMI from a player with a DD+ decoder
* Bitstream DD+ over HDMI to a receiver with a DD+ decoder

DD+ is not real useful as most movies will not have it. I instead suggest two options.

1) Live with lossy from Blu-ray. See the stickied AVR FAQ for why this is true
2) Get a player/receiver combo that will support all lossless codecs. Typically people are buying either a PS3 or other player which decodes all soundtracks and using it with an HDMI receiver that can play back HDMI audio. OR get a player with bitstreams lossless and pair it with a receiver with TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoders.

Thanks for the reply. I just assumed that DD+ was a standard on all BD movies (why isn't it?)! And I thought it was backward compatible with legacy DD processors, but then that is why I asked. Oh, well, I guess I can live with plain old DD since the experts have determined that the improvement of lossless over lossy is barely audible even under the best circumstances.

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post #2805 of 3041 Old 06-01-2009, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Thanks for the reply. I just assumed that DD+ was a standard on all BD movies (why isn't it?)!

As I said DD on Blu-ray is a higher resolution than on SD DVD.
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post #2806 of 3041 Old 06-03-2009, 06:26 PM
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OK, my Denon has 6 analog ins (5.1). Two questions: Will the BD out put 7.1 as 5.1 and still take advantage of lossless and other (better) codecs ? And secondly will my Denon still do bass management on this multichannel analog input I will be feeding it ?

Thanks,
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post #2807 of 3041 Old 06-03-2009, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

As I said DD on Blu-ray is a higher resolution than on SD DVD.

higher bitrate not resolution, right?
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post #2808 of 3041 Old 06-04-2009, 05:13 AM
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Yes bigger file sizes.
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post #2809 of 3041 Old 06-04-2009, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

higher bitrate not resolution, right?

Both, if we are using the same definition for resolution as DTS does. But if by resolution you mean sample rate, then no.

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post #2810 of 3041 Old 06-04-2009, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

I just assumed that DD+ was a standard on all BD movies (why isn't it?)!

Firstly, no codec is standard on discs. Content makers can choose from PCM, Dolby codecs, or DTS codecs.

Since, unlike HD DVD, the BD format did not adopt any of DTS's or Dolby's newer codecs as mandatory in players, they can only use the HR codec options when legacy codecs, standard DTS and Dolby Digital, are present on the disc to ensure compatibility. However, BD allows 5.1 DD to run up to 640 kb/s, and that increases the sonic "resolution" over DVD. If additional channels (say, 7.1) are in the soundtrack, then DD+ carries these as an extension packet on top of the core 5.1 DD.

DD 640 is compatible with existing AVRs, and S/PDIF connections. DD+ can exceed 1.5 Mbps, so it cannot be carried by S/PDIF.

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post #2811 of 3041 Old 06-07-2009, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoddee View Post

OK, my Denon has 6 analog ins (5.1). Two questions: Will the BD out put 7.1 as 5.1 and still take advantage of lossless and other (better) codecs ?

If you configure the player for 5.1, it will downmix 7.1 to 5.1 prior to the digital-analog conversion.

Quote:


And secondly will my Denon still do bass management on this multichannel analog input I will be feeding it ?

Probably not. Most receivers can't apply any digital processing to the analog inputs. With analog, bass management is usually done in the player.
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post #2812 of 3041 Old 06-07-2009, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

If you configure the player for 5.1, it will downmix 7.1 to 5.1 prior to the digital-analog conversion.

Just to expand a bit. When advanced codecs carry 7.1, they can output 5.1 without any player downmixing. They all carry a core, complete, 5.1 mix that was made in the encoder, and the extra 2 channels of the 7.1 are carried separately.

7.1 PCM soundtracks, however, do have to apply some form of player-based downmixing to make 5.1. That can cause certain compromises if not done well.

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post #2813 of 3041 Old 06-07-2009, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Just to expand a bit. When advanced codecs carry 7.1, they can output 5.1 without any player downmixing. They all carry a core, complete, 5.1 mix that was made in the encoder, and the extra 2 channels of the 7.1 are carried separately.

Presumably, the surround channels are not the same in the 5.1 and 7.1 mixes. How/where is the modification done with the advanced codecs?
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post #2814 of 3041 Old 06-07-2009, 07:39 PM
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Why would you presume that? No movies are recorded in 7.1. The extra 2 channels are derived in the mixing studio.
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post #2815 of 3041 Old 06-07-2009, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Why would you presume that? No movies are recorded in 7.1. The extra 2 channels are derived in the mixing studio.

I'm not sure what the number of original channels has to do with this. Perhaps you can explain.

Meanwhile, regardless of the source, I do not believe the exact same surround audio is used in the 5.1 and 7.1 mixes. Roger's post makes it sound like there's a 5.1 mix and the rear channels are simply added for 7.1 output. But, as I said, I don't think that's the way it works. So, I am asking whether and how the 5.1 surround audio is modified for the 7.1 output. Perhaps there's a separate 7.1 mix as part of the encoded package.
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post #2816 of 3041 Old 06-08-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Roger's post makes it sound like there's a 5.1 mix and the rear channels are simply added for 7.1 output. But, as I said, I don't think that's the way it works.

You're correct, that's not how it works. And I don't think Roger meant to imply that it does work that way.

Some coded soundtracks (as opposed to PCM soundtracks) use a core+extension structure. I'll use 7.1 TrueHD as an example. The core of a TrueHD soundtrack is a lossless 2-channel mix, either downmixed from the multi-channel original or a dedicated stereo mix. In any case, it contains all the information in the 7.1 soundtrack, just in fewer channels.

The first extension packet contains the data that, when combined with the core, will give you a lossless 5.1 soundtrack. Again, it contains all the information in the original 7.1 mix, but as a 5.1 version. The second extension packet contains the information that, when combined with the core and first extension packet, yields a lossless copy of the original 7.1 soundtrack. And so on, with more extension packets and more channels.

As a short-hand, you can say that the first extension packet contains 3.1 channels. But what it really contains is the specific data needed to convert the 2-channel core into a 5.1 track. As you can guess, some of the data in the stereo mix will have to be tossed or re-arranged to other channels as part of this conversion to 5.1.

Likewise, Roger used a short-hand to say that the second extension packet contains the last 2 channels of the 7.1 mix. What it really contains is the specific data needed to convert 2 surround channels back to the original 4. It's just easier to refer to these packets in terms of channels: 2-channel core, 3.1-channel first extension packet, etc. But it's really extension data, not actual channels.

This structure makes backwards compatibility easier. If your TV has 2 speakers, then the player only has to decode the core (no need to decode all 7.1 channels and downmix on-the-fly to 2.0). You'll still hear the entire soundtrack. If you have a 5.1 set-up, then your receiver only has to decode the core and first extension packet (no need to decode all 7.1 channels and downmix on-the-fly to 5.1). You'll still hear the entire soundtrack.

Make sense?

Sanjay
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post #2817 of 3041 Old 06-08-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Make sense?

Yes, perfect sense. Thanks.

So, unlike PCM, coded formats do no downmixing for output with fewer channels. Rather, there's some reconstruction of core elements as the extensions are added.
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post #2818 of 3041 Old 06-08-2009, 11:01 AM
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Sanjay, that is an awesome description and really clarified some things for me. I really appreciate your helpful descriptions and ability to describe the technical underpinnings of this stuff in easily comprehensible terms

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post #2819 of 3041 Old 06-08-2009, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The core ... contains all the information in the 7.1 soundtrack, just in fewer channels.
...
Make sense?

Not really. If all the information were already present in the core, what would be the point of the extension packets?

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post #2820 of 3041 Old 06-08-2009, 12:40 PM
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(to my understanding) the point is that there is no "downmixing" needed on-the-fly, which can be very DSP-intensive for 7.1 channels of high-bitrate lossless audio (some receivers, like Marantz, don't even have enough processing power to decode hi-rez audio and apply post processing).

With the setup as Sanjay described, the player can simply select the appropriate track (2.0, 5.1, or 7.1) and you will get the "correct" mix either way, as mastered in the recording studio, as long as you have configured the system correctly so that it "knows" how many speakers you have.

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