EMOTIVA Thread Q&A [TECHNICAL TALK ONLY] - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 17196 Old 05-08-2007, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

It seems as if the Emotiva forum has some Outlaws trashing the Emotiva name.

Does Emotiva have a forum? Please direct me there so I can see the "trashing". That's the very problem that is keeping me from buying a DMC: I'm concerned that the level of commitment that appeared to be available when the sales were going through AV 123 isn't there in terms of user-generated support.

I don't see anyone HERE trashing anyone's name. There are positive and negative comments about BOTH Outlaw and Emotiva, particularly for both missing promised delivery dates. All things considered, for any AVS thread where two brands that each have vocal supporters, this one is reasonably civil! Let's try adn keep it that way.
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post #632 of 17196 Old 05-08-2007, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by phtnhappy View Post

Does Emotiva have a forum? Please direct me there so I can see the "trashing".

Amen to that. Love 'em or hate 'em, but it's asinine that an online-only retailer doesn't have their own forum. I've emailed Emotiva asking them if/when they're going to set up a forum. No response.

I actually set up my own out of frustration and fun over on proboards. It took me all of about 20 minutes. I'd love to get it going as an unofficial place for Emotiva lovers & haters to hang out, but I don't really know how to start the ball rolling.

I haven't publicised it yet because a) I don't really know what I'm doing and b) I haven't heard from Emotiva to make sure that they don't have a problem with it (though, why would I care?)
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post #633 of 17196 Old 05-08-2007, 04:38 PM
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What are the well documented problems with the Emotiva LMC-1?
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post #634 of 17196 Old 05-08-2007, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

What are the well documented problems with the Emotiva LMC-1?

For starters, throughout this thread:

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=19727

Were there an Emotiva forum these issues would rightfully be aired there. In the absence of that, you'll find comments, concerns, complaints and compliments scattered here in AVS as well as over at AV123. Thus, to a previous point, not "trashing", but discussion looking for its proper home.

My concern is that the lack of such a forum telegraphs a lack of openness for issues concerning a company's products to be discussed in public. AV123 and Outlaw have had their warts and stood up to the test of airing them for all to see. Emotiva should do the same. The "give them a break they are busy" excuse doesn't cut it anymore.
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post #635 of 17196 Old 05-08-2007, 05:22 PM
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That thread is probably the best single source for summarizing the LMC-1 firmware's current state of affairs, particularly this post.

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post #636 of 17196 Old 05-08-2007, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BigStig View Post

I actually set up my own out of frustration and fun over on proboards.

Could you please give us a link to your board?
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post #637 of 17196 Old 05-08-2007, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by phtnhappy View Post

Could you please give us a link to your board?

Err, ahh, well...

It's a real happenin place right now.
Here
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post #638 of 17196 Old 05-08-2007, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

However, according to consumer reports, Denon's are unreliable. I have friends who have Denon's that have crapped out early.

Huh. Well, there's the problem.
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post #639 of 17196 Old 05-08-2007, 10:04 PM
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Thanks for the links guys. I agree with the idea presented about Emotiva developing a forum similar to Outlaw Audio. HSU Research also has an excellent forum. Once I have my components, I will give them a thorough listen. I will listen to everything for 20+ hours before jumping to conclusions.

Considering the low entry price for the LMC-1, one must accept some short comings. With the 40% off future upgrade, it makes it easier to deal with flaws. However, I will be very interested in firmware upgrades for the LMC-1.

I disagree with the argument that Emotiva is offering a 40% future upgrade discount on Pre/Pro's to keep cumstomers because they make poor equipment or have bad reliability or may not be around in a few years. There are hundreds of component manufacturers, keeping customers is very difficult because there are so many choices. It's an economic reward designed to reward the customer while keeping a long term customer for Emotiva. Once you have a customer, keeping the customer cuts down on advertising and other forms of promotions to obtain new customers.

I wasn't implying that members were intentionally trashing Emotiva. I was pointing out that when somebody says Outlaw Audio followed by better than Emotiva or an Outlaw knockoff. My experience was mainly with HSU subwoofer customers having to deal with SVS customers trashing HSU on the HSU forum. The trash talk is not bad here.

In conclusion, I agree Emotiva needs a forum. I also like the idea of firmware upgrades.
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post #640 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

Considering the low entry price for the LMC-1, one must accept some short comings.

This viewpoint has been offered many, many times since the LMC-1 entered public beta testing, and I've never disagreed with it from the standpoint of features offered. Many of the problems that exist with the LMC-1, however, are not related to bells and whistles that one would reasonably expect to have to pay more to get. Instead, there are core features that belong on any surround processor or bells and whistles that have been explicitly included which are not working properly. For example, surround mode memory per input can be found on $200 receivers and is reasonably a necessity for a surround sound processor that is used with multiple sources - there's nothing in the Emotiva documentation to indicate that it doesn't exist on the LMC-1, but users at AV123 finally figured out that the processor uses a single global surround mode memory. Hopefully the firmware update dongles that were supposed to be shipped to Emotiva on April 18 will start going out to existing owners soon along with a software update that starts to address some of these longstanding issues.

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post #641 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vddobrev View Post

Please don't take this as grounds for a fight, but how did you know?
Did you actually do an A/B test with a switching box?
Was your perception subjective due to the "bad modules"?

Granted the LMC-1 I received hisses like crazy, I am impressed with the LPA-1 nevertheless. It is a very good amp. I did an A/B test with my Sony-STR-DA5ES, and the improvment is great.

Not looking for a fight either, and i didn't take it that way...

That is exactly what i did...A/B test with a switcher.

My room is acoustically treated with absorption in the front (sides and ceiling), difussion in the rear (sides, ceiling & rear wall) and bass traps in the corners.

It sounded worse on both DVDs and music. Even my wife, who could care less, said it sounded worse. My BP7002's have a HUGE soundfield with just the Yammy, but it was much less open with the MPS-1.

I wish I had a different experience...and EMOTIVA was GREAT to deal with. Replacement modules were shipped quickly and the return wasn't a problem. They even picked up the return shipping after 45 days with the amp. Lonnie and Kathy were a pleasure to deal with; maybe I just got a bad amp. But I am looking for another amp.

Any suggestions?
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post #642 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 05:52 AM
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JVC RS-1
Firehawk G3
Yamaha RX-v2600
Opp DVD981-HD
Def Tech BP7002, CLR 2300, BPVX

A/B test with a switcher. I actually own 2 of the Yamaha recivers. One was hooked to the MPS-1 and the other was not.

My room is acoustically treated with absorption in the front (sides and ceiling), difussion in the rear (sides, ceiling & rear wall) and bass traps in the corners. The yamaha sounds great, I just wanted more power in reserve.

The Yammy/MPS-1 combo sounded worse than the Yammy alone on both DVDs and music. Even my wife, who could care less, said it sounded worse. My BP7002's have a HUGE soundfield with just the Yammy, but it was much less open with the MPS-1.

I wish I had a different experience...and EMOTIVA was GREAT to deal with. Replacement modules were shipped quickly and the return wasn't a problem. They even picked up the return shipping after 45 days with the amp. Lonnie and Kathy were a pleasure to deal with; maybe I just got a bad amp. But I am looking for another amp.

Any suggestions?
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post #643 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 07:09 AM
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How did you match the relative levels between the two setups?
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post #644 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ped View Post

How did you match the relative levels between the two setups?

Indeed, identical level is very important. In an A/B test, the louder system will be perceived as the better.
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post #645 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 10:08 AM
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And with two separate Yamaha receivers, it would be easy enough to calibrate the two in the same manner. I would suspect that someone that went through the significant trouble of doing an A/B test like this would have done just that, although gmauriello will have to confirm that to be sure.

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post #646 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vddobrev View Post

Indeed, identical level is very important. In an A/B test, the louder system will be perceived as the better.


A Radio Shack SPL. But it wasn't a question of volume, the MPS-1/Yamaha combo sounded like it was under water...you didn't need a meter or a "golden ear" to hear the difference. The MPS sounded horrible...it was literally unlistenable.

Maybe I missed something and wasn't comparing apples to apples, but i don't think so.
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post #647 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmauriello View Post

A Radio Shack SPL.

This should be good enough.

Some update on the hissing issue with my LMC-1. Yesterday I pulled out 2 Klipsch Quintet II satelites that I have in my closet. Hooked them up as fronts and listened to some music. LMC-1 is not hissing at all with the Quintets - their sensitivity is 90db. All other speakers I have are 98db - RF-3 II, RC-7, RS-7. So what should I conclude from this test? The LMC-1 is not a good match for very sensitive speakers?
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post #648 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmauriello View Post

A Radio Shack SPL. But it wasn't a question of volume, the MPS-1/Yamaha combo sounded like it was under water...you didn't need a meter or a "golden ear" to hear the difference. The MPS sounded horrible...it was literally unlistenable.

Maybe I missed something and wasn't comparing apples to apples, but i don't think so.

Hi,

Please keep in mind I'm just trying to get a better feel for how you setup/conducted the test as I'm a bit surprised that at this level there would be such a huge difference.

I would assume:

You had the same source connected to both pre's
The calibration tone for level matching was generated by the source
Both pre's were setup exactly the same wrt speaker size, distances, xover, audio modes, tone control, etc.
That you had the output of each amp going to your switchbox and then to your speakers
There was no delay in switching between amps

What was your switching arrangement? Something with relays similar to this or some other type of switch?

Thanks!
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post #649 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vddobrev View Post

This should be good enough.

Some update on the hissing issue with my LMC-1. Yesterday I pulled out 2 Klipsch Quintet II satelites that I have in my closet. Hooked them up as fronts and listened to some music. LMC-1 is not hissing at all with the Quintets - their sensitivity is 90db. All other speakers I have are 98db - RF-3 II, RC-7, RS-7. So what should I conclude from this test? The LMC-1 is not a good match for very sensitive speakers?

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you're using the internal amp of the LMC-1, the pre-pro should have nothing to do with the sensitivity of the speakers. That's kind of the point of seperates.

Perhaps the hiss you are hearing is coming from your amplifier, and not the LMC-1?
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post #650 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigStig View Post

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you're using the internal amp of the LMC-1, the pre-pro should have nothing to do with the sensitivity of the speakers. That's kind of the point of seperates.

Perhaps the hiss you are hearing is coming from your amplifier, and not the LMC-1?

I think you are wrong. If we leave the speaker sensitivity aside, the pre/pro and the amp each will inject some noise.
But the LPA-1 amp is quiet enough, right now I am playing it with my 6-year-old Sony connected as a pre/pro, and there is no hiss - same source, same interconnects, speaker wires, etc.
Obviously the noise floor of the LMC-1 is too high for my 98db Klipsch speakers. Emotiva lists Signal-to-noise as 105db, which means the LMC-1 should be very very quiet. I am not convinced this is true, unless the unit is defective...
A few more days for the replacement to arrive, and I will know for sure.

Edit: I think the more sensitive speakers you have, the quieter receiver or processor/amp you need, because sensitive speakers will reaveal it.
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post #651 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 11:12 AM
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What is even more surprising is that my Sony STR-DA5ES receiver has S/N of 100db, which in theory indicates it is noisier than LMC-1.
Specs are often not true, but the Sony (contrary to popular belief) has never hissed with my Klipsch speakers...
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post #652 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 11:14 AM
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The more I think about it, I think you're right in that I was wrong. If the LMC is a bit noisier than it should be, then a really sensitive speaker will pick up on that noise more readily than a less sensitive one, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vddobrev View Post

I think you are wrong. If we leave the speaker sensitivity aside, the pre/pro and the amp each will inject some noise.
But the LPA-1 amp is quiet enough, right now I am playing it with my 6-year-old Sony connected as a pre/pro, and there is no hiss - same source, same interconnects, speaker wires, etc.
Obviously the noise floor of the LMC-1 is too high for my 98db Klipsch speakers. Emotiva lists Signal-to-noise as 105db, which means the LMC-1 should be very very quiet. I am not convinced this is true, unless the unit is defective...
A few more days for the replacement to arrive, and I will know for sure.

Edit: I think the more sensitive speakers you have, the quieter receiver or processor/amp you need, because sensitive speakers will reaveal it.

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post #653 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 11:23 AM
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Outlaw's original Model 950's had a problem with hiss that tended to show up mainly with very efficient speakers (particularly horns). In that case, it was not related to the amplifier but the analog section of the pre/pro and it took some hardware changes to resolve (ask 950 owners about the original "red dot" and final "blue dot" revisions). That was a rather unusual case, though.

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post #654 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmauriello View Post

Emotivas look cool...but talk about a waste of money...they are built like junk and don't sound much better. keep your denon until you can buy a REAL amp


I have had my DMC-1/MPS-1 "Big Dogs" combo since they first came out over at AV123. They are a very good sounding combo... I am very satisfied with them, as are the majority of owners as I have read.

On the other hand, I have never heard of anyone state they sounded "horrible". Sure some have preferred other combos for many legitimate reasons or preferences, and that is perfectly fine. And yes, some MPS-1 have had amp module issues, but those have been isolated instances and not an indicator of the product in general. Any amp module issues have been quickly resolved by Emotiva's excellent customer service. IMHO it is slightly unfair to make blanket statements to those interested in the company's product like your quote above.

You certainly have the right to dislike the product for your own reasons, (ie. the amp does not work well with your current gear, or you have some setup problems, different tastes as to sonic signature or aesthetics, etc., or even actual MPS-1 issues) but to disparage the company and product outright to others because of your own issues... which may be even a case of issues only applicable to your circumstances... well, I believe is a little out of line. Hey, but your opinion is respected just like an opposing one is.

There are always two sides to every coin.
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post #655 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmauriello View Post

Emotivas look cool...but talk about a waste of money...they are built like junk and don't sound much better. keep your denon until you can buy a REAL amp


I'll have to agree with GBRV I also own a MPS-1 and love it. I've been doing this for some time and have been through more audio gear than most, in fact since you mentioned Denon the last product I owned was a 4806 and the MPS-1 sounds a bit better in my opinion.
My guess is that you may have inadvertently had a DSP mode on with the the Yamaha/Emotiva pair or because you had issues with a couple of modules (then by no fault of your own), your judgment was impaired. As far as the wife part I can tell you 101 times of of 100 if I ask my wife, does this $1700.00 add on amp sound better or do you prefer it without? she would say I can't hear a difference, you wasted how much of our money?
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post #656 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 12:40 PM
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You are absolutely right...and my bad experience did not cost me a nickel because EMOTIVA stepped up and picked up the return postage after i spent 45 days ordering, removing, replacing and repacking the bad modules. They sent me 11 modules in total...and 4 were bad...that is not an isolated problem. In addition, the bad module issue has been mentioned in several different reviews...those issues have always been taken care of quickly...as i said there customer service is great...no complaints there. But the sonic quality (at least with my amp) was really bad...BOSE-like.

Even my kids...6, 7, 10 and 11...asked why the system sounded so bad. You didn't need an A/B comparison to hear it.

With respect to their preamps, I don't think they have the R&D budget to be cutting edge...and that is where the cutting edge is most needed in my opinion. I hoped to use the MPS-1 with my Yamaha receiver (which has more features than any of the emotiva amps and is a great sounding piece of equipment) as a pre/pro until the HDMI 1.3/True HD issues are resolved and then go with a great pre/pro like Lexicon or Classe. I am looking at amps from Adcom, Arcam, Anthem, Earthquake, Theta, Parasound and Gemstone. Have you had any experience (positive or negative) with any of them?

I am glad to hear that you are enjoying them, but at the very least I was hoping to help someone avoid the mistake I made.
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post #657 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akbungle View Post

I'll have to agree with GBRV I also own a MPS-1 and love it. I've been doing this for some time and have been through more audio gear than most, in fact since you mentioned Denon the last product I owned was a 4806 and the MPS-1 sounds a bit better in my opinion.
My guess is that you may have inadvertently had a DSP mode on with the the Yamaha/Emotiva pair or because you had issues with a couple of modules (then by no fault of your own), your judgment was impaired. As far as the wife part I can tell you 101 times of of 100 if I ask my wife, does this $1700.00 add on amp sound better or do you prefer it without? she would say I can't hear a difference, you wasted how much of our money?


I was out of line (see post above)...based on the many people enjoying this amp, and the rave reviews...it is NOT a piece of junk. But it didn't sound good at all in my system. It wasn't a DSP issue...it even sounded horrible in "Pure Direct" mode. My 6 year old noticed the difference!

I know what I am doing and have an extensive collection of equipment myself...i have a separate 2 channel system with NAD separates and 4 different "HT sytems," all of which are Yamaha/DefTech based systems...built around a 42" Pioneer Elite Plasma (bedroom), 60" Sony XBR (family room), 55" Mits RPTV (gameroom) and JVC RS-1/110" Firehawk G3 (dedicated theater).


I can't explain it, but I'm not making it up either. Lonnie was great to deal with but the product left a lot to be desired IMO. And it WAS difficult to get over a 36% fail rate on the mods...that is a very high number.

When you say it sounded a bit better than the 4806, what were you using as a pre/pro with the mps-1?


BTW...Earthquake CineNova Grande and Adcom GFA-7807 have 300 wpc and can be had for not much more than the MPS-1. I bet they would both sound great with the 4806 as a pre/pro too.
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post #658 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

Outlaw's original Model 950's had a problem with hiss that tended to show up mainly with very efficient speakers (particularly horns). In that case, it was not related to the amplifier but the analog section of the pre/pro and it took some hardware changes to resolve (ask 950 owners about the original "red dot" and final "blue dot" revisions). That was a rather unusual case, though.

Gonk, my speakers are both very efficient and horn loaded Klipsch...
Are you aware of any hardware changes in the LMC-1 that have happened between their beta model and the latest? It could very well be that the replacement is no better, but should I hope for it, i.e. could it be with different hardware? Lonnie assured me he did a full system test before sending it, but he also mentioned they do not have high efficiency speakers to test with... Shouldn't Emotiva test their gear on a variety of speakers?
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post #659 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vddobrev View Post

Gonk, my speakers are both very efficient and horn loaded Klipsch...
Are you aware of any hardware changes in the LMC-1 that have happened between their beta model and the latest? It could very well be that the replacement is no better, but should I hope for it, i.e. could it be with different hardware? Lonnie assured me he did a full system test before sending it, but he also mentioned they do not have high efficiency speakers to test with... Shouldn't Emotiva test their gear on a variety of speakers?



EMOTIVA should do a lot of things that they don't...like test all of the bad modules being shipped. The customer service was great...but it was a waste of two months of my time from placing the original order to getting my refund.
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post #660 of 17196 Old 05-09-2007, 01:21 PM
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"Even my kids...6, 7, 10 and 11...asked why the system sounded so bad. You didn't need an A/B comparison to hear it."

"I am glad to hear that you are enjoying them, but at the very least I was hoping to help someone avoid the mistake I made.[/quote]"

If you have a problem with Emotiva and their customer service is excellent, why trash their products? You said Emotiva even paid for the return shipping charges after 45 days.

It's possible that the speakers you used had shot tweeters. It's also possible that you incorrectly hooked up the system. To say that your wife and kids all agree with your opinion of the Emotiva products is silly. Children will also agree with a authoritarian figure if they know what's good for them. As for your wife, women don't care much about sound quality, they care about shopping and what others think of their house, clothes and children.

Considering you had a bad experience with Emotiva's products in your home and an excellent experience with customer care, you shouldn't be complaining.
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