Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers - Page 32 - AVS Forum
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post #931 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 04:24 AM
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Do a google search for "Fletcher-Munson Curves" or "equal-loudness contour" and we can stay on topic.

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post #932 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 06:10 AM
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Yngdiego:

We are not involved with Audyssey. There are competing technologies that have similar goals and we expect to demo a unit with both Trinnov and Dolby Volume at the CEDIA show in Spetember.

For any AVS members in the Orlando area, I will be demonstrating the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer completely on-board during the upcoming EHX Show. We will no be part of the show but will be in the Peabody Hotel across the street. You are invited to attend.

Jeff
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post #933 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Yngdiego:

We are not involved with Audyssey. There are competing technologies that have similar goals and e expect to demo a unit with both Trinnov and Dolby Volume at the CEDIA show in Spetember.

For any AVS members in the Orlando area, I will be demonstrating the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer completely on-board during the upcoming EHX Show. We will no be part of the show but will be in the Peabody Hotel across the street. You are invited to attend.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I live in the Orlando area and would love to see the demo. Do you have any details yet, when, where and etc.?

Thanks

Ken
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post #934 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Yngdiego:

We are not involved with Audyssey. There are competing technologies that have similar goals and e expect to demo a unit with both Trinnov and Dolby Volume at the CEDIA show in Spetember.

For any AVS members in the Orlando area, I will be demonstrating the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer completely on-board during the upcoming EHX Show. We will no be part of the show but will be in the Peabody Hotel across the street. You are invited to attend.

Jeff

Glenn, maybe I misunderstood or didn't properly describe it. From the Audyssey site it says: "At a lower playback volume, voices change, bass disappears, and the surround soundstage becomes less enveloping. Now, Dynamic EQ lets you enjoy the original rich sound at any volume."

Looking at their example graphs, as the output volume is decreased they apply more bass boost to the overall EQ to compensate for the perceived drop in bass relative to other frequencies.

I could well be wrong, but I didn't think Dolby Volume had the same goals as Audyssey DynamicEQ. Dolby Volume seems to try and address the variability in loudness between sources or commercials and the main program. Maybe it also adjusts EQ depending on the AVR volume level, but I didn't think so.

So my basic question is, will the 972 have any type of compensation EQ technology based on the sound pressure level that boosts or cuts ranges of the audio signal depending on how high or low the user has the volume set?

I realize it doesn't have Audyssey DynamicEQ, but I was hoping it would have a similar feature that had the same goal since I never play at reference levels. And from what users have reported about DynamicEQ, they really like the feature and feel the sound is fuller at lower levels.
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post #935 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

Glenn, maybe I misunderstood or didn't properly describe it. From the Audyssey site it says: "At a lower playback volume, voices change, bass disappears, and the surround soundstage becomes less enveloping. Now, Dynamic EQ lets you enjoy the original rich sound at any volume."

Looking at their example graphs, as the output volume is decreased they apply more bass boost to the overall EQ to compensate for the perceived drop in bass relative to other frequencies.

I could well be wrong, but I didn't think Dolby Volume had the same goals as Audyssey DynamicEQ. Dolby Volume seems to try and address the variability in loudness between sources or commercials and the main program. Maybe it also adjusts EQ depending on the AVR volume level, but I didn't think so.

So my basic question is, will the 972 have any type of compensation EQ technology based on the sound pressure level that boosts or cuts ranges of the audio signal depending on how high or low the user has the volume set?

I realize it doesn't have Audyssey DynamicEQ, but I was hoping it would have a similar feature that had the same goal since I never play at reference levels. And from what users have reported about DynamicEQ, they really like the feature and feel the sound is fuller at lower levels.

By reading into his answer, I get the impression they will not have such a feature that you're describing, but that the Dolby feature may be added via firmware at a later date. Why? Because he wouldn't have brought it up if they weren't thinking about it, but he would have stated it will be in the receiver if it would at it's release.

Don't forget that Audssey has a major advantage in that they brought their technology to receivers a couple years ago and have applied it to several different receivers so they have worked out many of their kinks and are on to newer things. Trinnov in it's own right is very advanced (more so than Audyssey) so applying it to a receiver without losing it's guts is a feat unto itself. I wouldn't be surprised if Trinnov adds a feature like the one you're describing (especially if it is popular), but it's probably not possible to add it now without adding considerable delays. The Dolby feature is probably easier to add and thus much more likely to come via firmware update.

Krister
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post #936 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 03:21 PM
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Krister:

I'm not sure Audyssey has any advantages. Certainly Trinnov, coming directly from the studios, seems to have the leg that's up.

Jeff
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post #937 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 03:22 PM
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The demo in Orlando will be across the street from the convention center at the Peabody Hotel March 13-15.

Jeff
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post #938 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 03:27 PM
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Jeff,

If possible, could you elaborate on what Trinnov parameters the user can tweak? From the brochure, it looks like one can export the settings to a USB stick and upload them to a particular web site for further analysis and tweaking.

What I'm hoping for is more user control over the parameters than Audyssey Pro, which is zero.

Is the pre/pro still slated for August-ish 2008 timeframe?
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post #939 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 04:05 PM
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yngdiego:

Currently the user can select crossover frequency, one of the built-in target curves, 2D or 3D remapping and one of the two remapping targets: SMPTE Cinema or ITU Surround Music. The software has been configured to allow the uploading of new target curves. It may also be possible to allow the user to configure his own target curve, but that will be a future development.

I would think October would be a better estimate of the pre-pros availability.

Jeff
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post #940 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

yngdiego:

Currently the user can select crossover frequency, one of the built-in target curves, 2D or 3D remapping and one of the two remapping targets: SMPTE Cinema or ITU Surround Music. The software has been configured to allow the uploading of new target curves. It may also be possible to allow the user to configure his own target curve, but that will be a future development.

I would think October would be a better estimate of the pre-pros availability.

Jeff

Excellent, thanks for the information! I'm looking at a ICEpower amp, so I will probably hold out for your pre/pro which gives me time to absorb user feedback from the 972 and see if it gets rave reviews or not. I hope it does!

Edit: I hope the two curves will have discrete IR codes so we can flip between them with universal remotes.

Do you have a brochure for the pre/pro? Or will it be "exactly" like the 972 minus the amp section and add XLR output?
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post #941 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 05:35 PM
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No brochure yet on the pre-pro and no word on features. CEDIA's Expo is in September.

Jeff
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post #942 of 2075 Old 03-04-2008, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Krister:

I'm not sure Audyssey has any advantages. Certainly Trinnov, coming directly from the studios, seems to have the leg that's up.

Jeff

Jeff...

As far as I'm concerned, the only advantage Audyssey has over Trinnov is that they've had ample time to try to correct their screw ups with implementing their technology in receivers. That's a bit of a back handed complement for Audyssey. Since this will be Trinnov's first time in a receiver, they don't have that luxery. If Trinnov gets it right the first time, then more power to 'em.

Krister
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post #943 of 2075 Old 03-05-2008, 12:18 AM
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Jeff,

"we expect to demo a unit with both Trinnov and Dolby Volume at the CEDIA show in Spetember."

This would be the pre/pro, right?

"2D or 3D remapping"

What's that?

Is it that 2D moving the speakers' virtual image only laterally, and 3D does height as well?

Noah
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post #944 of 2075 Old 03-05-2008, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

This would be the pre/pro, right?

I've had a home theater setup for years dating back to laserdics, but I've never actually understood the pre/pro, amp thing...only AVRs. Can someone here give a quick rundown of the pros and cons? And is it worth investigating if one lives in a relatively small three-story townhome/condo?

Wish I lived near Orlando!

Thanks.

JP

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post #945 of 2075 Old 03-05-2008, 08:14 AM
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Pre-pro/amp vs. AVR Generally speaking:

By combining preamping and amping in one box, an AVR must have critical design thought as to layout, componentry, pathways, etc. in order to deliver best SQ. This is not always the case with mass produced items. With yearly remodeling, AVRs though have upper hand on latest processing codecs and sometimes features. AVR amping is considered less well designed and capable. Speaker selection requires thought to mate well with AVR amping, especially in the 4 Ohm or lower range.

Pre/pros/amps separate functions, generally use better quality components and almost always offer better direct modes for 2 channel. Design is optimized for best SQ. Processors also routinely feature phono amping. A separate amp delivers cleaner power on a comparative basis with cleaner signal reproduction and Bass control, to name a few.

Many folks, like myself, combine the two approaches and use a quality receiver with features we desire as pre/pro with an external amp.

Townhouse/condo living really has no bearing on whether to go separates or AVR. Dedicated listening spaces can make a difference in the AV experience but are not necessary. Depending on construction (cinderblock firewalls, etc.) townhouse/condo units are quite capable of handling high levels for HT or Audio without unnecessarily disturbing neighbors. The growth and progress of Room EQ has gone a long way to optimizing sound quality in difficult environments.
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post #946 of 2075 Old 03-05-2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Pre-pro/amp vs. AVR Generally speaking:

By combining preamping and amping in one box, an AVR must have critical design thought as to layout, componentry, pathways, etc. in order to deliver best SQ. This is not always the case with mass produced items. With yearly remodeling, AVRs though have upper hand on latest processing codecs and sometimes features. AVR amping is considered less well designed and capable. Speaker selection requires thought to mate well with AVR amping, especially in the 4 Ohm or lower range.

I would echo the comments on the amps. Generally, AVRs get dinged for less than stellar amp sections with over-rated power output estimates. ICEpower is becoming more popular, and only the flag-ship Pionner AVR has ICEpower built-in. So as ClarkeBar said, it's very popular to use a standard AVR such as the Denon or Onkyo to get all the wiz-bang features and pair it with a separate amp.

In addition, amps can give you many, many years of service and don't become quickly outdated. Get a good D-Sonic, Wyred 4 sound or Rotel ICEpower amp and it would power your system for many years.

AVRs change almost yearly, so you can preserve your investment in your amp, while more frequently upgrading your AVR to get the latest CODECs, HDMI, network features, etc.
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post #947 of 2075 Old 03-05-2008, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9suffix View Post

I've had a home theater setup for years dating back to laserdics, but I've never actually understood the pre/pro, amp thing...only AVRs. Can someone here give a quick rundown of the pros and cons?

There are different thoughts on separates. Here are the arguments for separates:
1) You can choose the best products from each manufacturer. So if Krell makes the amp you want, but Lexicon make the pre-amp you can get the best of both worlds.
2) By their very nature, separates are better because they don't have heat buildup from the amp interfering with chips in the preamp (and any other such issue).
3) Probably never need another amp in your life - why buy a 7 channel amp every time you need to decode the latest DTS or to get HDMI 1.3, just buy a new preamp.
4) Same as #3, but if the amp blows, why buy a preamp, just get a new amp.

Here's the A/V argument:
1) Lower cost of entry
2) You're going to need a new amp when 7 channels becomes 9 channels - it wasn't too long ago that 5 channels was standard
3) You don't even get a tuner! How can you listen to the radio
4) Sound quality - bah! I'd like someone to do a blind A/B test between a B&K amp and a B&K A/V - you won't hear the difference.
5) A/V's are so reliable you don't have to worry about the amp blowing.
6) A new A/V that decodes DTS-MA and has HDMI 1.3 costs about the same as a new pre-amp, so no long term cost savings there.

I use to have an NAD T773, but just spent $1,750 on a new NAD T775 - why? Because I needed HDMI. The NAD T175 preamp only cost $1,450, so I spent $300 more on the A/V receiver than if I had originally bought separates. That said, the NAD T975 amp would have cost me another $1,750 - so by buying another A/V receiver I'm still ahead by $1,450. The other side of the argument is the T975 amp is more powerful than my T775 A/V receiver, so I'm settling for less.

It's really a bunch of trade offs that require each consumer to make their own decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9suffix View Post

And is it worth investigating if one lives in a relatively small three-story townhome/condo?

I think it is worth investigating - the decision may be to stay only with A/V's, but you should think about the issues associated with each product type.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #948 of 2075 Old 03-05-2008, 07:37 PM
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ClarkeBar, yngdiego and SimpleTheater,

Thank you for the time you took to answer my questions. It's silly, but I've been intimidated-slash-intentionally ignorant of separates because, well, I just thought it was for the high-end or power-hungry crowd. I see now the benefits and disadvantages of having an amp connected to an AVR or pre-pro. I'm actually getting geeked at the idea of adding an amp to my system! Though, I'm sure the cooler, financial side of my brain will kick in after I've slept on it. Looking at $2K for a receiver and then dropping another $1,500 for yet another piece of equipment might be hard to justify (read: sell to my wife!).

Meanwhile, back to waiting for more information on the impending release of the R-8/972.

Thanks, again.

JP

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post #949 of 2075 Old 03-06-2008, 04:35 AM
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Looking at $2K for a receiver and then dropping another $1,500 for yet another piece of equipment might be hard to justify

One issue with receivers is the net cost of upgrades. You will notice that AVRs typically lose 50% of their resale value when new models with new/more bells & whistles are released.

Let's look at the situation of existing SN 965 series owners wishing to upgrade to 972. Those who went the R965 route need to purchase a R972. Those who went the P965 +A965 route paid ~ 50% more; but now can wait for the P972 (or whatever it will be called) to be released.

Touching on earlier posts; while the A965 is a good value amp, there are amps for a few hundred $ more (such as those from NAD, B&K and Parasound) that are better at driving speakers with low efficiency or low impedence.

And look at the new NAD AVRs - typically NAD - great amps, but with prepros lacking support for many of the newer formats + lots of bugs.

So with separates for example, I would expect the combination of the new SN P972 + NAD amp to give superior flexibility and performance to any AVR that either SN or NAD make.
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post #950 of 2075 Old 03-06-2008, 07:43 AM
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I again bought external amps. I have been using a Pioneer 59txi with the internal amps most recently. I decided to get off the Lexicon Upgrade merry-go-round and sold off my 9 MA 500's and my Lexicon processor a couple years ago.

The MA 500's were heating the house and the Lexicon upgrade costs were at least 1k per year.

I bought a Power 5 and Power 2 NHT amp and plan on getting the SN prepro when it comes out. The NHT's do not crank out much heat at all. In the meantime I bought a Pioneer 94THX to use as a prepro. Its not too expensive and probably will hold its value reasonably well until the SN piece comes out.

I simply want HDMI switching and processing right now. I'm familiar with the Pioneer Elite line and figure I will keep the amps for a LONG time. It also has some features few others do at it's price point.

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post #951 of 2075 Old 03-06-2008, 08:50 AM
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I sincerely hope that the new SN receiver and pre/pro will have USER upgradeable firmware. Receives are so complex today and standards so lose, that its impossible to release bug-free devices. I can tell you easy firmware upgrades was one reason why I got a Denon 3808 to hold me over until I can evaluate the 2008 SN devices.

USB stick, network or serial cable (not fond of serial...) would all suffice. Taking it into a service center is NOT a good option for people. Why? May not have a local service center, sometimes service centers have long back logs, getting the receiver in/out of the HT can be hard, etc.

If the new SN hardware does not allow users to perform upgrade upgrades, no matter how good Trinnov or the other features it, it's probably a deal breaker for me.

Denon, Onkyo, NAD, Yamaha, etc. have all required firmware updates to fix problems, some more serious than others.
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post #952 of 2075 Old 03-06-2008, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

I sincerely hope that the new SN receiver and pre/pro will have USER upgradeable firmware. Receives are so complex today and standards so lose, that its impossible to release bug-free devices. I can tell you easy firmware upgrades was one reason why I got a Denon 3808 to hold me over until I can evaluate the 2008 SN devices.

USB stick, network or serial cable (not fond of serial...) would all suffice. Taking it into a service center is NOT a good option for people. Why? May not have a local service center, sometimes service centers have long back logs, getting the receiver in/out of the HT can be hard, etc.

If the new SN hardware does not allow users to perform upgrade upgrades, no matter how good Trinnov or the other features it, it's probably a deal breaker for me.

Denon, Onkyo, NAD, Yamaha, etc. have all required firmware updates to fix problems, some more serious than others.

At least we know the new R/P-972 have the requisite hardware to make your request a possibility. That's a good sign. Given the relatively low number of S/N dealers (compared to other brands), I think S/N realizes it would be a nightmare for their dealers if the units had to be sent in. Since the chances of firmware updates being necessary are quite high, I can imagine many dealers pulling the line. For that reason alone I think S/N will strongly consider end user applied updates. It really should be just as easy to apply and much easier on everyone involved.

Krister
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post #953 of 2075 Old 03-06-2008, 09:14 AM
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At least we know the new R/P-972 have the requisite hardware to make your request a possibility. That's a good sign.

What requisite hardware would that be? Not doubting you...just curious. I know the brochure said upgradeable firmware but left out a key word "user."
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post #954 of 2075 Old 03-06-2008, 11:34 AM
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Current units are user upgradeable. I see no reason why subsequent models would deviate from that model.

Jeff
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post #955 of 2075 Old 03-06-2008, 11:39 AM
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Current units are user upgradeable. I see no reason why subsequent models would deviate from that model.

Jeff

Sweet! Glad to hear SN is on the leading edge. In the 972 brochure you might want to add "User" in front of the Upgradeable Firmware bullet point.
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post #956 of 2075 Old 03-07-2008, 07:36 PM
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I seem to be looking in vain for a reasonably priced (~$1000) avr that will do the following (what I consider to be) basic things.

(1) Properly sum the LFE channel and the redirected bass so as to not chop off/roll off LFE material above the crossover point.

For more on the issue see,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991439

(2) Properly boost the LFE channel sent over HDMI.

For more on the issue see,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

(3) Properly implement PLIIx so that it can be layered on top of 5.1 LPCM sent over HDMI as well as on top of lossless 5.1 decoded in the AVR.

(4) Properly process discrete 7.1 LPCM sent over HDMI or decoded in the AVR.

(5) Properly pass through 1080 video (e.g. without sparklies).

(6) Properly sync audio and video.

(7) Properly cool itself so that no extra fan is needed.

(8) Have preouts.

(9) Have reasonable DACs.

Any chance the new SN offerings will fit the bill?
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post #957 of 2075 Old 03-07-2008, 09:55 PM
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Wonder what'll come first, a BD player with profile 2.0 or the R-972 .

Still patiently waiting .... wonder if Jeff get's to demo one at home.
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post #958 of 2075 Old 03-08-2008, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by simon_templar_32 View Post

I seem to be looking in vain for a reasonably priced (~$1000) avr that will do the following (what I consider to be) basic things.

(1) Properly sum the LFE channel and the redirected bass so as to not chop off/roll off LFE material above the crossover point.

For more on the issue see,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991439

(2) Properly boost the LFE channel sent over HDMI.

For more on the issue see,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

(3) Properly implement PLIIx so that it can be layered on top of 5.1 LPCM sent over HDMI as well as on top of lossless 5.1 decoded in the AVR.

(4) Properly process discrete 7.1 LPCM sent over HDMI or decoded in the AVR.

(5) Properly pass through 1080 video (e.g. without sparklies).

(6) Properly sync audio and video.

(7) Properly cool itself so that no extra fan is needed.

(8) Have preouts.

(9) Have reasonable DACs.

Any chance the new SN offerings will fit the bill?

Seems like pretty obvious things that should be done right. The cooling issue is probably the least likely on the list. AVRs and amps in general tend to get hot... and I doubt there will be room in the case for excessive (proper) cooling. I expect the rest.

edit: obviously we won't know for sure until it hits the market (and AVSers run it through its paces ).

Krister
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post #959 of 2075 Old 03-09-2008, 11:06 AM
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Jeff; there is one concern I have about the Trinnov's optimization of the loudspeaker positions; I might be out to lunch here, but follow me on this...

Somebody in this forum who heard a demo of the Trinnov system, reported that it was capable of making a center speaker positioned below ear-level, appear as if it was raised up to ear-level. This sounds pretty cool, but from my limited experience with 3D audio, sound re-positioning in 3D space requires 2 elements; one is frequency colouration (e.g. lower elevation sounds tend to be heard with reduced high frequencies, and the higher frequencies return as the sound source elevates.). The other requirement however, is a binaural delay -- that is to say, it requires a left and right-positioned signal to achieve the proper inter-aural delay to trick your brain into thinking a sound has moved into a position where there is no physical speaker.

That being the case, wouldn't the Trinnov optimizer then need to create a 'phantom' center speaker by mixing the center channel information into the left and right speakers? If so, then this is a problem for me. My front left/right speakers do not reproduce dialog as clearly as my center speaker, which was made specifically for that task. I would much rather have my dialog coming from my center channel *below* ear-level, then to have it 'muddied' by my left and right channels just to trick my ears into thinking that the sound is at ear-level.

Hopefully my fears are unfounded -- I mean the whole Trinnov experience is one of the motivating factors for me waiting for the R-972, so I would hate to have to bypass it...
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post #960 of 2075 Old 03-09-2008, 11:38 PM
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"sound re-positioning in 3D space requires 2 elements"

A single speaker doesn't need to and can't reproduce 3-D.

All that's needed here is 1-D, the height dimension.

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