Sherwood Newcastle R-872 & R-972 HDMI 1.3 receivers - Page 38 - AVS Forum
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post #1111 of 2075 Old 04-15-2008, 03:34 PM
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Noah:

Every demo we have conducted has used the Sherwood DSP code and not the Trinnov professional code. The show in Munich will be our public debut with the code fully inside the R-972.

Jeff
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post #1112 of 2075 Old 04-15-2008, 10:40 PM
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"Every demo we have conducted has used the Sherwood DSP code and not the Trinnov professional code."

Yes, you've said so before, but does that take the hardware out of the equation?

Perhaps Trinnov is different, but I know that the filter resolution available from Audyssey software (2EQ, MultEQ, etc) depends on the DSP resources available on the platform, and I'd think the R-972 has much less than the Trinnov pro unit.

Noah
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post #1113 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Every demo we have conducted has used the Sherwood DSP code and not the Trinnov professional code."

Yes, you've said so before, but does that take the hardware out of the equation?

Perhaps Trinnov is different, but I know that the filter resolution available from Audyssey software (2EQ, MultEQ, etc) depends on the DSP resources available on the platform, and I'd think the R-972 has much less than the Trinnov pro unit.

But didn't Jeff just say that this demo would be fully integrated into the 972 at this demo engagement?
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post #1114 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 09:35 AM
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"But didn't Jeff just say that this demo would be fully integrated into the 972 at this demo engagement?"

The only word I see that's common to what he just said and what you just said is "the".

Noah
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post #1115 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Hi:
...there will be a demo of the R-972 with the Trinnov Optimizer embedded in the AVR at the High End Show in Munich...
Jeff

Noah...

I interpret the above quote as saying a pre-production unit without a separate, piggy backed Trinnov Optimizer will be demoed at the event. Having said that, I share your concern over the likelihood that the processing power of the AVR will be substantially less than that in the stand alone unit. Hopefully the show will shed some light.

Edit: Maybe I should have said the processing power allocated to the Trinnov Optimizer within the AVR will likely be substantially less than the processing power within the stand alone unit. Time will tell if that makes a difference.... and hopefully the event next week will shed light on whether there is a difference or not. Hopefully an independant person can comprare the R-972 with an embedded Trinnov Optimizer versus a R-972 with an outbard stand alone unit using the R-972's algorithm. It's not hard to immagine people being very happy with an unknowingly underperforming embedded processor if they haven't heard the effects of the stand alone unit (even though it uses the same algorithm). Hopefully the Trinnov Optimizer won't have the same problems Audyssey had. I expect to be very pleased, but you just don't know until it's released.

Krister
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post #1116 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

I'm in Seoul now and can report the following: R-772's have been available for several months. R-872 is scheduled for producion at the end of this month. R-972 is now scheduled for the end of June.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krholmberg View Post

The idea that a R-972 with an embedded Trinnov Optimizer will be publicly shown next week is exciting and shows progress. The idea that it's release is pushed back to late June isn't so exciting. Is that when manufacturing will begin... or is that when the first shipments will be sent out to dealers... or is that when dealers should actually have them in their showrooms?

In the context of the paragraph, it is implied that it will start production then; but it isn't stated, so we don't know.

However, if one has waited this long, it probably doesn't matter at this point.
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post #1117 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by QZ1 View Post

... [h]owever, if one has waited this long, it probably doesn't matter at this point....

Ain't that the truth.

Krister
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post #1118 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 12:59 PM
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Stereophile (May '08) on Sherwood Trinnov. Used prototype of R-972; not outboard unit.

5.1 system w/fronts too close; surrounds too far apart; ctr on carpeted floor. Sounded awful.

With Trinnov, "the soundfield blossomed, and most amazingly, the voice from the ctr spk no longer rose from below, but seemed to come directly from the screen."

Had listener turn sideways, switched in another correction, "Amazingly, the SN created a convincing soundfield correctly oriented to my new posture."

"This seem like a system w/potential."
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post #1119 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 01:06 PM
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Any news on the pre/pro version?

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post #1120 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 01:20 PM
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While it won't be the same as the pro version it is obvious they are trying to get as much out of it as they can...

"We demonstrated the codes that will be resident in the R-972. We did not demo the professional codes. Both rely on a combination of FIR and IIR filters and have the same number of FIR taps. I am not authorized ato give complete details on the number of IIR filters, but it is not 7 versus 30. The actual difference is much smaller.

The other difference between the Sherwood code set and the pro version is the amount of boost available. To insure that our home unit does not run out of headroom, boost is limited to 6 dB. The professional version does not have this limitation."

And I think that if they were going to debut the 972 in Munich withOUT Trinnov being "integrated" (see integrated "formed into a whole or introduced into another entity") then Jeff would not have used the word "integrated".
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post #1121 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 02:25 PM
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I don't know how to further clarify the Trinnov demos and the power of this technology.

I have demoed the technology at CES, at EHX, at the End Result Dealer Show in Pittsburgh, for Davis Distributing in Wheeling, WV, at the DCC Supply open house in Atlanta, at the CBI dealer show in Illinois. Every one of these demonstrations has used the Sherwood DSP code. Next week our sales manager for Europe will demonstrate the R-972 with the identical Sherwood/Trinnov code embedded completely in the R-972.

I believe two AVS Forum members have written about their Trinnov demonstration. Regarding the impact of the technology, both wrote that they "experienced" the demo. The didn't just listen to it. I promise their jaws dropped.

Although the guys at Trinnov tell me the code is only slightly simplified from their pro code, I will argue that is irrelevant.

Trinnov, as used in the R-972, measures speaker distance to the closest centimeter. Azimuth and elevation are accurate to plus or minus 1 degree. With both EQ and 3D remapping engaged, our version of Trinnov offers system performance improvement that, IMO, rivals the improvement Dolby Digital made over Dolby Pro Logic.

Jeff
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post #1122 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 03:21 PM
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"Jeff would not have used the word "integrated"."

He didn't.

Jeff,

"I don't know how to further clarify the Trinnov demos and the power of this technology."

That's not the question.

The question is if buyers of the R-972 will get the same *hardware* that's been demo'd.

Will we?

If not, Trinnov in production R-972's may or may not perform as well as in the demo's.

Noah
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post #1123 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 04:30 PM
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Noah:

Stop it! R-972 users will get exactly the performance we have demonstrated.

Jeff
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post #1124 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 05:04 PM
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"He didn't."

You know what? You're right, my bad. He said "inside" which is even better.
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post #1125 of 2075 Old 04-16-2008, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"But didn't Jeff just say that this demo would be fully integrated into the 972 at this demo engagement?"

The only word I see that's common to what he just said and what you just said is "the".

Er... I don't follow. He's saying that the non-pro Trinnov code will be inside the box for the upcoming demo. He's also said that the non-pro version is the version that will be in the final product. So how is what I said, any different than what he said? And furthermore, why won't you give Jeff the benefit of the doubt? Seems as though he's been quite generous answering your many questions -- not sure what more he can do to put your mind at ease.
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post #1126 of 2075 Old 04-17-2008, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanksworthy View Post

-- not sure what more he can do to put your mind at ease.

Agreed, Shanksworthy.

All along I thought calling the Trinnov Pro nothing more than a "code bucket" meant it was merely holding the receiver code until they could stick it on a smaller chip. Then, I understood it to be "embedded" and "fully inside" the AVR.

Anyway, the nuances of these technical questions are usually beyond me.

As long as it sounds awesome at the end of the day...

JP

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post #1127 of 2075 Old 04-17-2008, 11:49 AM
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Jeff,

"R-972 users will get exactly the performance we have demonstrated."

Thanks, that's all I wanted to know.

Sorry for being paranoid.

Noah
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post #1128 of 2075 Old 04-18-2008, 01:55 AM
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Jeff,

The brochure you sent out shows no dolby volume and support for a single subwoofer but I have seen posts from you and other Sherwood literature that says that Dolby Volume will be supported on release and also seen other releases intimating that Sherwood will be releasing a system including speakers which was 7.2, which means it would have two subwoofer outlets under trinnov control.

Could you confirm the Dolby Volume support and whether there will be support for 2 subs under Trinnov ontrol.

If you have anything to add on a likely release date for the prePro I would also be interested in knowing.

Thanks
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post #1129 of 2075 Old 04-18-2008, 05:48 AM
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Or the likely availability to consumers date for the R-972.
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post #1130 of 2075 Old 04-18-2008, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broke_ht_nut View Post

Jeff,

Could you confirm the Dolby Volume support and whether there will be support for 2 subs under Trinnov ontrol.


I'd also like to know if Trinnov has a feature equivalent to Audyssey DynamicEQ which is featured on the Denon xx08 models. This is different from, and complimentary to, Dolby Volume.
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post #1131 of 2075 Old 04-18-2008, 09:56 AM
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Broke:

While I did write that we expected to demo a pre-pro at CEDIA with Dolby Volume, we never planned to have Dolby Volume in the R-972 and have never stated that we would.

Regarding the use of dual subwoofers, although the R-972 supports only 7.1, I have been using dual subs during my demos arrayed per the research of Todd Welti at Harman. Although the subs are run in parallel, Trinnov does equalize the acoustic sum of their outputs and I have been able to achieve plus or minus 1 dB response at the listening position.

Jeff
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post #1132 of 2075 Old 04-18-2008, 09:58 AM
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yngdiego:

Trinnov does not offer an equivalent to Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. Trinnov is engaged in ongoing product development but I cannot comment on any future offerings.

Jeff
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post #1133 of 2075 Old 04-18-2008, 10:45 AM
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Jeff, thank you for your continued support of this discussion! I have learned a great deal. I have decided to wait for the pre/pro (having just purchased my first amp.).

Are there any other bones you can throw us regarding your planned demo of the pre/pro at CEDIA?

Should someone start an anticipation thread for the pre/pro? Keep it here for now?

JP

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post #1134 of 2075 Old 04-18-2008, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Broke:

Regarding the use of dual subwoofers, although the R-972 supports only 7.1, I have been using dual subs during my demos arrayed per the research of Todd Welti at Harman. Although the subs are run in parallel, Trinnov does equalize the acoustic sum of their outputs and I have been able to achieve plus or minus 1 dB response at the listening position.

Jeff



How does the Trinnov Optimizer / R-972 account for the difference in time delay/phase between the seated position and the two subs. Realistically, if the two subs are centered left to right on the front and rear wall, the rear sub will be much closer to the seated position than the front sub (since most people sit towards the rear of the room). I ask this because if I remember correctly, the to subs are subs are supposed to be completely out of phase.

edit: I realize the easiest thing is to add an external passive phase adjustor to one sub to alter it's phase relative to the other. I'm just curious as to whether you tried anything else.

Krister
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post #1135 of 2075 Old 04-18-2008, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

yngdiego:

Trinnov does not offer an equivalent to Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. Trinnov is engaged in ongoing product development but I cannot comment on any future offerings.

Jeff

Thanks! I hope they come out with an equivalent or even better DynamicEQ feature that could be in a future firmware update for the 972 and pre/pro.
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post #1136 of 2075 Old 04-21-2008, 05:03 AM
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[quote=krholmberg;13674314]I realize the easiest thing is to add an external passive phase adjustor to one sub to alter it's phase relative to the other. /QUOTE]



Why?
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post #1137 of 2075 Old 04-21-2008, 09:59 AM
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My understanding (and I could be wrong), is that the subs are supposed to be perfectly out of phase. In order to do that, you could swap polarity to reverse phase, but you'd still need to account for the distance between them. That's where the individual phase adjustment comes into play. It's been a while since I read the white paper... maybe I need to revisit it.

Krister
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post #1138 of 2075 Old 04-21-2008, 10:05 AM
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"I realize the easiest thing is to add an external passive phase adjustor to one sub to alter it's phase relative to the other. "

Not so w/o serious performance degradation.

"the subs are supposed to be perfectly out of phase"

That's backwards; they would cancel each other's output.

Noah
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post #1139 of 2075 Old 04-21-2008, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

Thanks! I hope they come out with an equivalent or even better DynamicEQ feature that could be in a future firmware update for the 972 and pre/pro.

It is likely to require significantly more horsepower so I would not count on it being upgradable at all. In fact I would say the chances are slim to none of it being upgradable. That is why I was asking about Dolby Volume. While jeff says it will be implemented in other receivers it seems that he has now ruled it out of their flagship product. Basically this means that when it does eventually get announced you will need to buy a new receiver or pre pro.

So if you need this functionality now you are mostly stuck with Denon who do the Auddessy with Dynamic Eq.

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post #1140 of 2075 Old 04-21-2008, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"I realize the easiest thing is to add an external passive phase adjustor to one sub to alter it's phase relative to the other. "

Not so w/o serious performance degradation.

"the subs are supposed to be perfectly out of phase"

That's backwards; they would cancel each other's output.

Thanks Noah... looks like I need to revist the Harman white paper . It's been a while.

Krister
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