"Official" "Why you don't need HDMI 1.3" thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1694 Old 02-15-2007, 01:03 AM
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"Lossless audio is also only relevant to people with an already significant investment in their surround sound system"

Do you say this because the quality difference between core and lossless is small and only resolvable on very good systems?

Noah
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post #182 of 1694 Old 02-15-2007, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Lossless audio is also only relevant to people with an already significant investment in their surround sound system"

Do you say this because the quality difference between core and lossless is small and only resolvable on very good systems?

I was implying that in the context of the average consumer, any receiver+speaker surround system ($1000+) would be considered a significant investment. Most people simply plug their player directly into their TV and it would have to be a very special TV to resolve the difference between lossless and lossy audio.
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post #183 of 1694 Old 02-15-2007, 02:17 PM
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Guys, I'm very new to all this and I find it extremely informative as I am beginning my research in preparation for upgrading to a new AVR and DVD player to go with my current Pioneer Elite 530 with DVI. But my question is this: What happens to all this when the format war of HD-DVD vs Blue Ray is settled? Or will it not be settled and us poor consumers are going to have to make a choice between the 2 based on audio/video quality and/or the availability of content? Have I missed something along the way? Thanks
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post #184 of 1694 Old 02-15-2007, 02:57 PM
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I suspect the Format War still has a few more years to finally play out before there is any clear cut answer. There are all sorts of tactics whoever is falling behind can use to extend things.

But none of that is going to have much impact on how HDMI plays out for home theater unless the industry comes to its senses and abandons its quest for digital rights management at all costs.

Actually the first crack in that has already happened since current HD-DVD and Blu-Ray titles allow high def video output on Component cables.
--Bob


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post #185 of 1694 Old 02-15-2007, 05:09 PM
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"I was implying that in the context of the average consumer, any receiver+speaker surround system ($1000+) would be considered a significant investment."

OK, I'll take that to mean the difference would only be unnoticeable in systems <$1K.

Thanks

Noah
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post #186 of 1694 Old 02-16-2007, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockomanOK View Post

Guys, I'm very new to all this and I find it extremely informative as I am beginning my research in preparation for upgrading to a new AVR and DVD player to go with my current Pioneer Elite 530 with DVI. But my question is this: What happens to all this when the format war of HD-DVD vs Blue Ray is settled? Or will it not be settled and us poor consumers are going to have to make a choice between the 2 based on audio/video quality and/or the availability of content? Have I missed something along the way? Thanks

I own BOTH HD format players and my Library has both
format movies.

I HAVE NO BIAS EITHER WAY.

Although HD DVDs got the head start and I did not get
my Pioneer Blu-Ray player until they were released in
Early December - I have not bought a HD DVD since
12/5.

WHY - the movies of interest to me seem to be all on
Blu-Ray now. The HD DVD Movie Camp seems to have fallen
down delivering new content. Sure they are still releasing
movies that are OLD and I already own then in SD. But
that is not what I call delivering new content.

BOTH Technologies are GREAT. When it comes time to buy,
see who has the BEST SOURCE of CONTENT.

Maybe by the time you are ready - there will be a GOOD
Dual Format Player. One is available today - but since it
is Gen 1 - I would recommend Staying away from it.
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post #187 of 1694 Old 02-16-2007, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhankz View Post

I own BOTH HD format players and my Library has both
format movies.

I HAVE NO BIAS EITHER WAY.

Although HD DVDs got the head start and I did not get
my Pioneer Blu-Ray player until they were released in
Early December - I have not bought a HD DVD since
12/5.

WHY - the movies of interest to me seem to be all on
Blu-Ray now. The HD DVD Movie Camp seems to have fallen
down delivering new content. Sure they are still releasing
movies that are OLD and I already own then in SD. But
that is not what I call delivering new content.

BOTH Technologies are GREAT. When it comes time to buy,
see who has the BEST SOURCE of CONTENT.

Maybe by the time you are ready - there will be a GOOD
Dual Format Player. One is available today - but since it
is Gen 1 - I would recommend Staying away from it.

And that's why you don't need HDMI 1.3!

Gary J
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post #188 of 1694 Old 02-19-2007, 08:37 AM
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There's still one area I'm not sure about.
Let's say I buy a 1.1 AVR receiver right now (like the Onkyo 674 as I'm only going 5.1 surround).
If two years from now, Blue Rays are down in price, would they be compatible with 1.1 HDMI connections or will they only send the data to the receiver in 1.3 or higher format? I see the point in waiting until the DVD player processes the data instead of the receiver, I just want to make sure that a 1.1 receiver I buy today will be compatible through HDMI with a newer blue ray DVD player.
Thank you in advance for your response.
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post #189 of 1694 Old 02-19-2007, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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HDMI 1.3 devices should be compatible with HDMI 1.1 devices.

From hdmi.org's FAQ

"Q. Are all of the new HDMI versions backwards compatible with previous versions?

Yes, all HDMI versions are fully backwards compatible with all previous versions.
"

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #190 of 1694 Old 02-19-2007, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo View Post

There's still one area I'm not sure about.
Let's say I buy a 1.1 AVR receiver right now (like the Onkyo 674 as I'm only going 5.1 surround).
If two years from now, Blue Rays are down in price, would they be compatible with 1.1 HDMI connections or will they only send the data to the receiver in 1.3 or higher format? I see the point in waiting until the DVD player processes the data instead of the receiver, I just want to make sure that a 1.1 receiver I buy today will be compatible through HDMI with a newer blue ray DVD player.
Thank you in advance for your response.

Part of the V1.3 spec is that it is backwards compatible with the earlier specs. Presumably any future changes to the HDMI specifications would also be designed that way. That means a V1.3 (or higher) source device like a new Blu-Ray player, should work just fine with a V1.1 receiver -- limited of course to just the V1.1 feature set. Theoretically.

Whether the IMPLEMENTATION in any give device follows the spec is another question entirely. For example, HDMI devices are ALSO supposed to be backwards compatible with DVI devices and yet many source device manufacturers are guilty of using an HDMI driver chip with a known flaw that causes clipping of Blacker than Black and Peak White data if the destination device is a DVI device.

It is not yet known how well the bulk of HDMI V1.3 manufacturers will do with designing and testng for backwards compatibility, nor whether the efforts to provide cross manufacturer testing (SimPlay) will adequately test for that. The factor working against backwards compatibility testing is that manufacturers make more money if customers decide they have to upgrade all their stuff to HDMI V1.3 once they buy their first HDMI V1.3 device. The factor working for it is that customers won't buy their first HDMI V1.3 device if they discover it doesn't work with the HDMI V1.1 stuff they already have.

However the odds are reasonably good that this will all work out just fine because of the timing of product releases. That is, HDMI V1.3 devices are going to be launched in a world that is still almost entirely HDMI V1.1 or V1.2. The key circuits implementing HDMI V1.3 will likely be standardized during that period. This was not quite the case in the HDMI vs. DVI situation because at the time HDMI devices first came out DVI devices were still mostly stuck in the computer world (which is why that faulty chip happened). DVI on TVs was originaly intended to connect computers to TVs.

So consider the important HDMI V1.1 features:

1) Supported video resolutions and bandwidth: HDMI V1.3 supports a superset of HDMI V1.1, but the bulk of the market will be in the resolutions supported by HDMI V1.1 so HDMI V1.3 devices will have to work well with those. TVs, even HDMI V1.3 TVs, will likely support only a subset of what HDMI V1.3 can theoretically do, so HDMI source devices will have to work well with destinations that accepted only limited resolutions. An HDMI V1.1 receiver would look just like that to an HDMI V1.3 player.

2) Bitstream audio for legacy formats (i.e., traditional Dolby Digital and DTS): Again this is a core technology, and such a commodity technology that it would be very odd if HDMI V1.3 screwed it up.

3) High bandwidth PCM audio for transmitting decoded versions of new, high def audio formats: If "advanced content" HD-DVD discs, and "player profile 1.1 or higher" Blu-Ray discs become the norm as expected, then HDMI V1.3 devices will need to do this well even when connected to other HDMI V1.3 devices. The fact that new audio format "bitstreams" are also supported in HDMI V1.3 should then lead to no problems.

4) Connection protocols and copy protection: This is where Simplay certification will likely have its biggest impact. What matters here is how seriously the Simplay folks address backwards compatibility testing -- particularly cross-manufacturer backwards compatibility testing. The problem goes in both directions. Newer sources need to know to restrain themselves in the features they use when talking to older destinations. And newer destinations need to present their optional capabilities to older sources in a way that doesn't confuse the older sources. The problem here is that if any older source is found to have difficulty, the first reaction will be to tell the customer he has to buy a new source device rather than "correcting" the HDMI V1.3 destination device to not cause the problem. There are a huge number of badly engineered legacy HDMI devices out there already. Cable TV boxes for example. Some of these probably really should be abandoned. But that shouldn't give V1.3 manufacturers license to abandon ALL older HDMI source devices.

Then you've got the stuff that HDMI V1.3 does which has no match in the HDMI V1.1 world:

A) Auto lip synch: This is an optional feature, so HDMI V1.3 devices have to be prepared for even other HDMI V1.3 devices not doing it. So this should be no problem when connected to HDMI V1.1 devices.

B) Deep Color and xxYCC Color Space: Making connections to V1.1 devices or even V1.3 devices that don't support these should be no problem. Again the V1.3 devices will be launched in a V1.1 world so this will have to work. But what MAY be a problem is if errors creep in as regards data conversion. Will manufacturers (or Simplay) test whether conversion from xxYCC to YCbCr or even to RGB is done correctly across the entire data range and without clipping problems as found in the HDMI to DVI bug (in fact due to faulty YCbCr to RGB conversion) I mentioned above?

So the upshot is that there are lots of ways this COULD get screwed up. Manufacturers of new, cheap, HDMI V1.3 players MIGHT make them in a way where things don't work right with an HDMI V1.1 receiver you could buy today. But the odds are against it because the "standardized" implementations affecting all of the above stated issues will likely end up being developed and cast in stone while "working right with HDMI V1.1" is still a key marketing requirement.
--Bob


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post #191 of 1694 Old 02-19-2007, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Part of the V1.3 spec is that it is backwards compatible with the earlier specs. Presumably any future changes to the HDMI specifications would also be designed that way. That means a V1.3 (or higher) source device like a new Blu-Ray player, should work just fine with a V1.1 receiver -- limited of course to just the V1.1 feature set. Theoretically.

Whether the IMPLEMENTATION in any give device follows the spec is another question entirely. For example, HDMI devices are ALSO supposed to be backwards compatible with DVI devices and yet many source device manufacturers are guilty of using an HDMI driver chip with a known flaw that causes clipping of Blacker than Black and Peak White data if the destination device is a DVI device.

It is not yet known how well the bulk of HDMI V1.3 manufacturers will do with designing and testng for backwards compatibility, nor whether the efforts to provide cross manufacturer testing (SimPlay) will adequately test for that. The factor working against backwards compatibility testing is that manufacturers make more money if customers decide they have to upgrade all their stuff to HDMI V1.3 once they buy their first HDMI V1.3 device. The factor working for it is that customers won't buy their first HDMI V1.3 device if they discover it doesn't work with the HDMI V1.1 stuff they already have.

However the odds are reasonably good that this will all work out just fine because of the timing of product releases. That is, HDMI V1.3 devices are going to be launched in a world that is still almost entirely HDMI V1.1 or V1.2. The key circuits implementing HDMI V1.3 will likely be standardized during that period. This was not quite the case in the HDMI vs. DVI situation because at the time HDMI devices first came out DVI devices were still mostly stuck in the computer world (which is why that faulty chip happened). DVI on TVs was originaly intended to connect computers to TVs.

So consider the important HDMI V1.1 features:

1) Supported video resolutions and bandwidth: HDMI V1.3 supports a superset of HDMI V1.1, but the bulk of the market will be in the resolutions supported by HDMI V1.1 so HDMI V1.3 devices will have to work well with those. TVs, even HDMI V1.3 TVs, will likely support only a subset of what HDMI V1.3 can theoretically do, so HDMI source devices will have to work well with destinations that accepted only limited resolutions. An HDMI V1.1 receiver would look just like that to an HDMI V1.3 player.

2) Bitstream audio for legacy formats (i.e., traditional Dolby Digital and DTS): Again this is a core technology, and such a commodity technology that it would be very odd if HDMI V1.3 screwed it up.

3) High bandwidth PCM audio for transmitting decoded versions of new, high def audio formats: If "advanced content" HD-DVD discs, and "player profile 1.1 or higher" Blu-Ray discs become the norm as expected, then HDMI V1.3 devices will need to do this well even when connected to other HDMI V1.3 devices. The fact that new audio format "bitstreams" are also supported in HDMI V1.3 should then lead to no problems.

4) Connection protocols and copy protection: This is where Simplay certification will likely have its biggest impact. What matters here is how seriously the Simplay folks address backwards compatibility testing -- particularly cross-manufacturer backwards compatibility testing. The problem goes in both directions. Newer sources need to know to restrain themselves in the features they use when talking to older destinations. And newer destinations need to present their optional capabilities to older sources in a way that doesn't confuse the older sources. The problem here is that if any older source is found to have difficulty, the first reaction will be to tell the customer he has to buy a new source device rather than "correcting" the HDMI V1.3 destination device to not cause the problem. There are a huge number of badly engineered legacy HDMI devices out there already. Cable TV boxes for example. Some of these probably really should be abandoned. But that shouldn't give V1.3 manufacturers license to abandon ALL older HDMI source devices.

Then you've got the stuff that HDMI V1.3 does which has no match in the HDMI V1.1 world:

A) Auto lip synch: This is an optional feature, so HDMI V1.3 devices have to be prepared for even other HDMI V1.3 devices not doing it. So this should be no problem when connected to HDMI V1.1 devices.

B) Deep Color and xxYCC Color Space: Making connections to V1.1 devices or even V1.3 devices that don't support these should be no problem. Again the V1.3 devices will be launched in a V1.1 world so this will have to work. But what MAY be a problem is if errors creep in as regards data conversion. Will manufacturers (or Simplay) test whether conversion from xxYCC to YCbCr or even to RGB is done correctly across the entire data range and without clipping problems as found in the HDMI to DVI bug (in fact due to faulty YCbCr to RGB conversion) I mentioned above?

So the upshot is that there are lots of ways this COULD get screwed up. Manufacturers of new, cheap, HDMI V1.3 players MIGHT make them in a way where things don't work right with an HDMI V1.1 receiver you could buy today. But the odds are against it because the "standardized" implementations affecting all of the above stated issues will likely end up being developed and cast in stone while "working right with HDMI V1.1" is still a key marketing requirement.
--Bob

Bob - Thanks for taking the time to give a well thought out answer.
Unfortunately, there is still some risk with a V1.1 receviers for the future.
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post #192 of 1694 Old 02-19-2007, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo View Post

Bob - Thanks for taking the time to give a well thought out answer.
Unfortunately, there is still some risk with a V1.1 receviers for the future.

Yes. However there is also risk with a V1.3 receiver! V1.3 is harder to implement. There are additional ways to screw it up.

The bottom line is none of this stuff is really plug and play yet.

The manufacturers are, of course, SUPPOSED to make this stuff correctly. But in reality the only way to be sure is to wait to buy until you know (from reviews or your own trials) that the devices you are interested in, in fact work together. It also helps to buy from manufacturers that have a good track record of fixing problems in a timely fashion.

Understand that there is no good reason why a future V1.3 player shouldn't work with a current V1.1 receiver. If it doesn't, then one or both manufacturers have screwed up and should be held to account.
--Bob


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post #193 of 1694 Old 02-19-2007, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Yes. However there is also risk with a V1.3 receiver! V1.3 is harder to implement. There are additional ways to screw it up.

The bottom line is none of this stuff is really plug and play yet.

The manufacturers are, of course, SUPPOSED to make this stuff correctly. But in reality the only way to be sure is to wait to buy until you know (from reviews or your own trials) that the devices you are interested in, in fact work together. It also helps to buy from manufacturers that have a good track record of fixing problems in a timely fashion.

Understand that there is no good reason why a future V1.3 player shouldn't work with a current V1.1 receiver. If it doesn't, then one or both manufacturers have screwed up and should be held to account.
--Bob

Agreed. I wonder how long it will take them to get to the point where they should be. It sure adds wrinkles to making an intelligent buying decision.
I started off looking at TVs, went into receivers (and HDMI connectivity) and speakers and am amazed by all I didn't know!
Thanks again, this forum is a huge help.
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post #194 of 1694 Old 02-19-2007, 09:46 PM
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Another thing to bear in mind is that there are plenty of poor implementations of HDMI 1.1 in terms of features, and I'm sure that will carry on into HDMI 1.3.

My main bugbears are

1) Lack of support for aspect ratio signalling - a lot of devices either don't send aspect ratio flags, or don't listen to them. And I'm not sure how many receivers pass them on. This is a massive step backwards from good old fashioned SCART.

2) Lack of support for 480i/576i - how on earth can we take a video output from a DVD player seriously if it can't output it in its native format without mangling it through a deinterlacer? Far too common in DVD players.

3) Lack of support for multichannel hi-res audio with standard definition video. Head. Wall. Thump.

4) Receivers that can't show video from one input with audio from another. I don't care how hard HDMI makes this, and that it means adding an extra HDMI receiver chip - it's not my fault some moron put video and audio in the same signal. Just make it work.

Many of those no doubt stem from HDMI's inception as a "high-definition" interface, but anyone seriously proposing it as a universal video+audio connector needs to think a bit harder about the 99.9% of SD content out there... I hate it when "upgrades" mean losing functionality.

Will HDMI 1.3 fix any of this? Will it heck. HDMI 1.1 already supports all 4, but so few actually implement it well.
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post #195 of 1694 Old 02-20-2007, 09:24 AM
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It looks to me that HDMI has been about "DRM first, customer last" since inception....they had digital video down 6+ years ago with DVI and digital audio 10+ years ago. All this other stuff is just fluff to disguise a poorly conceived, poorly implemented and pointless encryption standard (HDCP).

I find it really odd that a technology advertised to simplify connectivity (1 wire versus 6-11) creates so much confusion, incompatibility, delay and complexity. Most consumers have a "see the plug, use the plug" mentality, myself no exception. I was hacked off to no end when my brand new SA8300HDDVR wouldn't output a video signal over DVI (due to HDCP error) while the older, previous SA3250 output beautifully over DVI for several years prior.

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post #196 of 1694 Old 02-20-2007, 09:32 AM
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Lest we get this thread too far off topic, I just want to reiterate that the idea is not so much to turn folks off to HDMI, but to help them find their way through the thicket.

For better or worse, this is the way the industry has decided to go. And if you find products that do it right, HDMI, right now, is clearly the way to go.

The purpose of THIS thread is to help people understand that they can do all the fun and useful stuff coming out now, and over the next year or so (and quite likely longer), with HDMI V1.1.

HDMI V1.3 is not worth holding off for, nor worth paying a premium for over a well designed HDMI V1.1 product. But there's also no good reason NOT to get it if the other things the HDMI V1.3 product does are a fit for you.

In addition, you can feel free to upgrade gradually to new HDMI V1.3 devices instead of having to swap out everything all at once. For the things folks really want to do, a mix of well designed V1.3 and V1.1 (or V1.2) devices will work just fine.
--Bob


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post #197 of 1694 Old 02-20-2007, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Bob is right. This was never intended to be an anti-HDMI thread. In fact I used HDMI at home with no issues.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #198 of 1694 Old 02-20-2007, 06:50 PM
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Bob and Mike,

I understand the intent for the thread..however, since this is a sticky thread, it bears noting that there are many people with problematic HDMI installs.... it would be misleading to suggest otherwise by glossing over the dissatisfaction. I was responding to others expressing concern.

While you may not "need" HDMI 1.3, if your current HDMI doesn't work, there's no guarantee even 1.3 is going to accomodate whatever component is causing the current problem. I'd hate to see someone splurge on a current $2000 HDMI receiver only to find it was the cablebox causing the problem anyway. I'd hate to see someone splurge on a future HDMI 1.3 receiver only to find its still the cablebox causing the problem. In that case, they won't need HDMI old or new...they'll need component.

Anyway, carry on, I hope everyone's HDMI works out, it is a great picture if your setup works.

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post #199 of 1694 Old 02-21-2007, 01:11 PM
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Thanks for the responses and the additional information. My primary focus right now is digital audio (DVD-A and SACD). Along with my 1080i Elite 530 with DVI. If I want to go HDMI, my best bet, right now at least, is to purchase HDMI v1.2 AVR and DVD player, preferably from the same manufacturer or test drive different manufactures to make sure they are compatible... correct?
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post #200 of 1694 Old 02-21-2007, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockomanOK View Post

Thanks for the responses and the additional information. My primary focus right now is digital audio (DVD-A and SACD). Along with my 1080i Elite 530 with DVI. If I want to go HDMI, my best bet, right now at least, is to purchase HDMI v1.2 AVR and DVD player, preferably from the same manufacturer or test drive different manufactures to make sure they are compatible... correct?

There's no good reason why a receiver or DVD player from Pioneer would work better over HDMI with your 530 than a receiver or DVD player from any other good manufacturer. Your 530 won't know what's on the other end of the cable and all manufacturers make mistakes. Pioneer is doing a firmware upgrade right now in some of its receivers due to the "low LFE" problem for example.

Do your homework and try to find the best products you can afford. And then, even if it IS a Pioneer product you settle on, figure out a way to do a test drive to make sure it really works the way you think it works. The product could be perfect in description and in its implementation matching that description, but if you don't really understand its features and limitations you can still find you've been bitten just because the details of all this stuff really are pretty tricky. You may simply have bought one or two models lower in price than you should have bought for what you want to do. Or higher in price for that matter.

Pioneer makes some fine products, but you should not exclude other manufacturers from consideration just because you already own some other Pioneer products.

Most HDMI problems are actually the result of faulty implementation in SOURCE devices, because the source device -- the device that begins the video and audio chain -- bears the brunt of the responsibility for setting up the connection correctly. And for some types of source device you don't have a lot of choices. HDMI Cable HDTV boxes are a big offender here for example.
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post #201 of 1694 Old 02-21-2007, 02:04 PM
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Wow, Bob you're very fast with the reply...thanks so much. I was not very clear in my previous post. I didn't mean I wanted to stay with Pioneer for all my gear because I have a Pioneer TV. What I meant to ask/say was I should chose a manufacturer of AVR and DVD and stay consistant with them ie Pioneer, Denon and/or others. If I maintain a minimum of HDMI 1.2 within a given brand, my chances for compatibility would be greatest, hopefully.
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post #202 of 1694 Old 02-21-2007, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by KMO View Post

There was already a working successor to S/PDIF, with copy protection and the capability to handle all the HD audio formats, but without any of the HDMI compatibility grief, and that's i.Link.

Sending audio over the same lead as video, as HDMI decided to do, is only making life harder for anyone attempting to use a receiver. SCART caused enough problems when wiring up complex systems, but it could be dealt with by break-out boxes to separate the audio. But HDMI pretty much rules that out altogether with copy protection. I suppose some

Personally, I've decided i.Link is the way to go for now. HDMI is okay for the simplest case of connecting a DVD player straight to a TV, but people with real A/V setups need a proper dedicated audio connection.

i.Link's bus system is so much more elegant than the old-fashioned unidirectional point-to-point HDMI scheme.

I prefer I-Link as well, I've said it before and will say it again, it offers daisy chaining and offers auto switching and remote command transmission which HDMI is only offering now in a very few select 1.3 devices. I-Link could still be used for HD players, it is AACS approved. Interestingly the A&M spec that defines I-Link audio specs requires 2 channel 24/192 and 6 channels 24/96 support but allows optionally for 12+ Channels of 24/192.

I'm hoping someone like Denon or Onkyo will see the advantage of I-Link not only for compatibility but also for easier control and daisy chaining which would likely encourage buying the same brand source as receiver and hence sell more kit. Denone more or less changed the connector and rebranded I-Link to Denonlink for this exact purpose.
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post #203 of 1694 Old 02-22-2007, 02:53 AM
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Shockoman

Here's a post illustrating what I was talking about previously:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9842927

These are problems between a bona fide 1.3 solution (PS3) and a very recent 1.2 Denon (I think 1.2).

I suspect your approach of matching separates from the same manufacturer is a good idea but certainly no guarantee.

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post #204 of 1694 Old 02-22-2007, 09:10 PM
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I have considered buying a Parasound C2. The C2 has straight analog bypass. I see downside of using a C2 with the new HD formats is that no processing could be done with the C2. If the movie was produced in 5.1 that is all that you would get unless the HD player had some way of creating the back 2 channels. All base management and speaker settings would have to be done in the HD player. Basically the C2 would just be a volume control. Do I have this right?
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post #205 of 1694 Old 02-27-2007, 10:24 AM
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This thread is really informative, but Im kinda confused. To be able to receive TrueHD or DTS-HD I need an HDMI 1.3 receiver (that part I understand). But if I want to get lossless PCM I just have to have a receiver with analog out that can decode PCM? Or is HDMI required to decode lossless PCM? I was thinking of getting the Onkyo TX-SR 504 receiver, so even though it doesn't have a HDMI port, I should still be able to get lossless PCM right?

thanks

edit: looks like i was wrong. I looked over the 1st post and it appears you don't even need HDMI for TrueHD or DTS-HD.
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post #206 of 1694 Old 02-27-2007, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdizzle View Post

This thread is really informative, but Im kinda confused. To be able to receive TrueHD or DTS-HD I need an HDMI 1.3 receiver (that part I understand). But if I want to get lossless PCM I just have to have a receiver with analog out that can decode PCM? Or is HDMI required to decode lossless PCM? I was thinking of getting the Onkyo TX-SR 504 receiver, so even though it doesn't have a HDMI port, I should still be able to get lossless PCM right?

thanks

edit: looks like i was wrong. I looked over the 1st post and it appears you don't even need HDMI for TrueHD or DTS-HD.

I think you may still be confused. This is confusing stuff. Here's a post from another thread that may help clarify the situation for you:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9817674

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post #207 of 1694 Old 02-27-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdizzle View Post

This thread is really informative, but Im kinda confused. To be able to receive TrueHD or DTS-HD I need an HDMI 1.3 receiver (that part I understand). But if I want to get lossless PCM I just have to have a receiver with analog out that can decode PCM? Or is HDMI required to decode lossless PCM? I was thinking of getting the Onkyo TX-SR 504 receiver, so even though it doesn't have a HDMI port, I should still be able to get lossless PCM right?

thanks

edit: looks like i was wrong. I looked over the 1st post and it appears you don't even need HDMI for TrueHD or DTS-HD.

think of it in terms of steps, from the disc to your speakers. sound from a digital disk has to be in PCM form at some point.

encoded data on disk --> decoded to PCM --> any processing necessary --> sent through Digital-to-Analog converter --> amplified --> speakers

Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital +, DTS, DTS HD, DTS HD MA, Dolby True HD are simply compression codecs for how the data is stored on disc (the 1st step above).

a lot of blue-ray discs skip the first step and store the data as uncompressed PCM on the disc. DVD and HD-DVD store the compressed codecs.

now, there's basically 3 ways to hear lossless sound right now.
1. if your player has multi-channel analog outputs, you can accomplish all of the steps up though D-A conversion in the player and send those analog signals to the receiver for amplification.
2. HDMI - send the raw PCM stream to the receiver, this only requires HDMI 1.1
3. HDMI - send the encoded data to the receiver for the remaining steps, this requires HDMI 1.3, in both the player and the receiver.

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post #208 of 1694 Old 02-27-2007, 03:26 PM
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Ok I think I understand it a little bit more now. To receive TrueHD, DTS-HD, or PCM, I need a player that can decode the stream internally and output it to a receiver over multichannel analog (the receiver has to be hdmi 1.1 at least, even though im not using the hdmi port, right?). If I dont have a player that can decode it, then id need a 1.3 player and 1.3 receiver connected via hdmi to get lossless audio.

If that's correct then the only way to get lossless audio with current hd-dvd players is through hdmi because none of them have 5.1 multi out right? And since the xbox 360 addon doesnt have hdmi or multiout, that means that you can't get any lossless audio through it correct? And the ps3 and samsung players would have to use hdmi to get lossless audio correct?

The last thing I'm confused about is do I need a receiver with HDMI to get some form of lossless audio, or can I get one with component inputs (like an onkyo 504)?
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post #209 of 1694 Old 02-27-2007, 04:20 PM
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HDMI is digital, not analog.

multi-channel analog refers to RCA-type connections from the player to the receiver. there's one cable for each speaker. if you have this, you don't need HDMI at all.

the Toshiba A1, XA1, and XA2 all have multi-channel analog outputs.

the XBOX 360 cannot output lossless sound right now because it only has an optical output.

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post #210 of 1694 Old 02-27-2007, 06:16 PM
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Quote:


The last thing I'm confused about is do I need a receiver with HDMI to get some form of lossless audio, or can I get one with component inputs (like an onkyo 504)?

If your player has the internal decoder for the audio format being played then you can get away with using the analog input on your receiver. You can also use HDMI 1.1 to send PCM to your receiver and use only one cable instead of 6. And if you buy a Blu-ray player I would not want to be stuck without a HDMI receiver. Because I doubt you have a receiver with dual 5.1 analog inputs. So it would be beneficial IMHO to at least have a well built receiver with HDMI 1.1 especially if you might add Blu-ray to your HT along with your HD-DVD player.

Supporter of 1080p & 4K video / Supporter of Lossless PCM, Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio / Say No To MP3 & WMA / Say no to Bose & LG!
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