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the way different amps "Sound"

27K views 474 replies 60 participants last post by  Kysersose 
#1 ·
Would anyone like to chat about the way certain amps have a "Sound"?


I have just tried 2 different amps on my home speakers and was wondering what you guys thought about the type of sound you get with different amps that are available out there.....



My Adcom 555 II was too bright in the mids/highs so I bought a Carver TFM 55x and now I like the mids/highs but the bass is too soft and doesnt hit as hard...



Is there an amp out there that may give me both attributes I'm seeking?



Thanks,

John
 
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#77 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuthed /forum/post/0


I bought good enough stuff the first time around.

that is the right strategy: we are usually too poor to buy cheap stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuthed /forum/post/0


Moral of the story: You get what you pay for.

you may not get what you pay for, especially in high-end audio gears.


you certain don't get what you don't pay for.
 
#78 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuthed /forum/post/0


My point is they are standing behind their products more so than most other manufacturers.

the point others are trying to point out for you is that Bryston stands behind their products simply because you paid them to stand behind their products.


They didn't offer a 20-year warranty just because they love you. They offered it because you bought it, together with your amp.
 
#79 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty Williams /forum/post/0


Most used consumer electronics are rarely worth 50% after 1 year.

maybe the comparison should be made between Bryston and similar amps with comparable warranties.


would Bryston hold its value better in that regard?


as pointed out, the market for extremely long warranty isn't that big so you see very few manufacturers offering them. Could Denon or Yamaha offer similar policies? sure. Would a typical Denon / Yamaha buyer value such a policy? no.


there is no correlation between long warranty and quality of equipment, let alone quality of sound.


if anything, the opposite is more likely to be true.
 
#82 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues /forum/post/0


Amp choice can make or break your system. All receivers sound different to me.

Room treatments wont cure a bad amp selection.


Most important imo is-


1.speakers

2.amp

3.room

I actualy cant see how you cant tell a difference in amps after we A/B the Adcom 555II against the Carver TFM-55x! It's night and day! We made sure to keep same volume levels, and use identical source material, while only swapping out the amps...Someone suggested maybe my electrolitcs are shot in the Adcom, but another friend of mine had a new adcom 5500 and he said his had forward sounding mids too.


I know room acoustics do play a big role, but like I said earlier, we did the test in two completely different home theaters with all different equipment and both of us noticed the same thing. So, I'm not buying you cant tell a difference. (Assuming both my amps are 100% functioning, maybe they arent?)
 
#84 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlf9999 /forum/post/0


Hyundai / GM have 10-year/100K miles on their cars. Toyota has 3-year, Honda has 3-year, MB has 4-year.


Does that mean Hyundai / GM make better cars than Toyota/Honda/MB?


think about it.

Hyundai has a 5 year - 60,000 mile basic warranty and a 10 year -100,000 mile powertrain warranty.


General Motors has a 3 year - 36,000 mile basic warranty and a 5 year - 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.


Toyota/Honda have a 3 year - 36,000 mile basic warranty and a 5 year - 60,000 mile powertrain warranty.


Mercedes Benz has a 4 year - 50,000 mile basic warranty.
 
#85 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty Williams /forum/post/0


The car analogy is interesting, but cars != amps. What GM or MD does in terms of quality and warranty has absolutely no impact on the quality and warranty of a Bryston, Classe', Parasound, etc. The industry and market force differences between automotive and consumer electronics are significant.

you are different from craigsub: you are likely born to different families on different dates; you are likely raised differently; you are likely to have grown up in different school districts, different states or even different countries. ....


Does that mean that starvation wouldn't kill you while it will kill craigsub?


sure, cars aren't amps, and GM or MB aren't Bryston. and the differences are significant.


But are they significant enough so that long warranty leads to better quality in the amp world but not in the car world? if so, why?


Just pointing out that the obivious (that cars aren't amps) is superfacial at best.
 
#86 ·
I love posts on amp sounds, wires, etc. Whenever I get down I can always count on them to give me a laugh. I don't know what delights me more, the "ears" people without a shred of anything to support their beliefs other than their ears or the people who continue to argue with them as if anything will ever be accomplished. Does anybody really believe that Nuthed will ever change his opinion that his "ears" are all that counts and anything to the contrary is wrong, stupid, and "here we go again"? I would guess that Nuthed doesn't believe that he will convince anybody, he just posts his blather to incite and he gets what he is looking for. If those of us who don't believe in the "golden ears" method of argument simple ignored these types of posts and people, soon they would get bored and go away. But then I wouldn't have anything to read on a night when I'm looking for a good laugh!



By the way, the earth is flat. My eyes support that observation. I don't care what any instrument says, what any photograph shows, or what all the scientists prove with the scientific method. There is no denying the simple fact that my eyes are the best instruments in the world to measure what I see and they don't see any ball or curve. All they see is a flat surface. Those who state any different based on facts, "well here we go again" Won't you simply believe your own eyes? They never lie are are never fooled.
 
#87 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty Williams /forum/post/0


What's your problem with Bryston? What's your basis for questioning the "quality" of Bryston amps? You don't think they have "good sound"? They aren't reliable? The build quality if poor? The cost/performance (value) is not equivalent to others in it's class?

what's your problem with reading comprehension?


we are NOT here to talk about Bryston being bad (or good for that matter), its build-quality, or sound quality. or its cost/performance. and we certainly are NOT here to question the quality of Bryston or any other amps.


We are here to understand the correlation between long warranty and (build/sound) quality of amps.


Hope that clears it for you, Monty.
 
#88 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico /forum/post/0


I love posts on amp sounds, wires, etc. Whenever I get down I can always count on them to give me a laugh. I don't know what delights me more, the "ears" people without a shred of anything to support their beliefs other than their ears or the people who continue to argue with them as if anything will ever be accomplished. Does anybody really believe that Nuthed will ever change his opinion that his "ears" are all that counts and anything to the contrary is wrong, stupid, and "here we go again"? I would guess that Nuthed doesn't believe that he will convince anybody, he just posts his blather to incite and he gets what he is looking for. If those of us who don't believe in the "golden ears" method of argument simple ignored these types of posts and people, soon they would get bored and go away. But then I wouldn't have anything to read on a night when I'm looking for a good laugh!



By the way, the earth is flat. My eyes support that observation. I don't care what any instrument says, what any photograph shows, or what all the scientists prove with the scientific method. There is no denying the simple fact that my eyes are the best instruments in the world to measure what I see and they don't see any ball or curve. All they see is a flat surface. Those who state any different based on facts, "well here we go again" Won't you simply believe your own eyes? They never lie are are never fooled.

Your rather juvenile approach to this topic does warrant a response. In the late 90's, I was looking for the right 2 channel amp to go with a pair of Legacy Classics. The contenders were an Aragon 8008, and Adcom 555 II, and the NAD 218 THX.


All three were place in my system by my dealer, and I spent several weeks listening to each of the under blind conditions. The Aragon definitely won the comparison, and held a place in my 2 channel system until I sold it in favor of the McIntosh MA-6900 in 2003.


Here are some graphs of the NAD and the Aragon ...


NAD FR curve ...



Aragon FR curve ...



Both were operating well under clipping, and deliver in excess of 350 WPC into a 4 ohm load.


I picked the Aragon consistently over the NAD. Yet the FR curve, output and THD levels were consistent between the two amps.
 
#89 ·
So, were all three amps set up such that they produced the same levels and you simply switched among the three, or was it that all three were hooked up in such a way that you were able to vary the volume but all you could identify during your evaluation was A, B, or C?
 
#90 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai /forum/post/0


So, were all three amps set up such that they produced the same levels and you simply switched among the three, or was it that all three were hooked up in such a way that you were able to vary the volume but all you could identify during your evaluation was A, B, or C?

I could vary the volume, but could only identify A, B or C.
 
#91 ·
Well, then what your evaluation determined was that one of the amps was the best suited to drive your speakers. I don't see a problem with that.
 
#92 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai /forum/post/0


Well, then what your evaluation determined was that one of the amps was the best suited to drive your speakers. I don't see a problem with that.

Agreed ... We then tried a Krell a couple months after getting the 8008. I could not tell the difference using the same technique.


It is a pretty good way for someone to find out whether the upgrade is worth it.


As for selling the 8008 for the Mcintosh ... Sound Quality was not the issue ... it was strictly because a dealer was liquidating stock, and the $4600 amp sold for $2500.
 
#95 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico /forum/post/0


I love posts on amp sounds, wires, etc. Whenever I get down I can always count on them to give me a laugh. I don't know what delights me more, the "ears" people without a shred of anything to support their beliefs other than their ears or the people who continue to argue with them as if anything will ever be accomplished. Does anybody really believe that Nuthed will ever change his opinion that his "ears" are all that counts and anything to the contrary is wrong, stupid, and "here we go again"? I would guess that Nuthed doesn't believe that he will convince anybody, he just posts his blather to incite and he gets what he is looking for. If those of us who don't believe in the "golden ears" method of argument simple ignored these types of posts and people, soon they would get bored and go away. But then I wouldn't have anything to read on a night when I'm looking for a good laugh!



By the way, the earth is flat. My eyes support that observation. I don't care what any instrument says, what any photograph shows, or what all the scientists prove with the scientific method. There is no denying the simple fact that my eyes are the best instruments in the world to measure what I see and they don't see any ball or curve. All they see is a flat surface. Those who state any different based on facts, "well here we go again" Won't you simply believe your own eyes? They never lie are are never fooled.
Good analogy.
 
#96 ·
Your evaluations suggest that in a strict 2 channel setup, at the volumes you were listening to, one of the amps probably had more reserve capacity. I don't know what the input sensitivity for the amps are but I'm assuming that wasn't an issue as was noise. I'd suspect that in a 2.1 channel evaluation, it might be a wash and that even lesser amps would be adequate. I do think craigsub, that over a few beers and some pencil and paper, we might find that we are in general agreement but viewing the picture from different angles.
 
#97 ·
Interesting thread. It's too bad people some people can't avoid confrontational language though. That sort of thing just creates fame wars, and gets threads closed.


It's clear some people really believe they can hear the difference. It serves to purpose to tell these people they are wrong. On the other hand, they can't prove to YOU that you would hear a difference. That's where tests have a use.


Tests indicating that differences are at best minor and hard to detect can save you money. If you are convinced you can't hear a difference, and tests back that up, why not buy a cheaper amp?


I am sure it's tempting to justify purchasing an expensive amp to others. But you only need to justify it to yourself. And people purchasing cheaper amps should not insult those buying more expensive amps. You both had your reasons, and they were (I hope) good enough for you.
 
#98 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai /forum/post/0


Your evaluations suggest that in a strict 2 channel setup, at the volumes you were listening to, one of the amps probably had more reserve capacity. I don't know what the input sensitivity for the amps are but I'm assuming that wasn't an issue as was noise. I'd suspect that in a 2.1 channel evaluation, it might be a wash and that even lesser amps would be adequate. I do think craigsub, that over a few beers and some pencil and paper, we might find that we are in general agreement but viewing the picture from different angles.

Sometime, when you are bored, check out all the graphs from Stereophile's measurements on the NAD and the Aragon. There is some interesting stuff.


I tend to listen to music in the 50-95 dB range ... the 95 dB being absolute peaks. Absolutely, take out the deep bass requirement from the amp (for your 2.1 suggestion), and it will be an even more difficult task to discern the differences.


That being said, the Emotiva MPS-1 was much better sounding, even at low levels, than was the Denon 3805 on its own. The only difference in this test was the receiver handling all amplification vs. adding the MPS-1 into the system.


Based on experience, I don't see the need to go beyond amps like the MPS-1, Outlaw, Rotel, Sherwood, etc ...


However, if someone else hears a difference in a large Krell set up, cool. And if another guy is happy with a $500 receiver, even better, for him.
 
#100 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/0


..It's clear some people really believe they can hear the difference. It serves to purpose to tell these people they are wrong..

That's where I disagree. I have been reading these posts for years, many years, that comprise hundreds of threads and thousands of posts. And I have never seen a single instance where anybody ever changed their mind. So the evidence would seem to support the fact that not a single person who trusted only their "ears" could be argued to another point of view, thus making these types of threads not only reptitive, but the exact type to attract people with agendas looking for nothing more than participating in an argument for the simple sake of arguing. And despite what Craigsub says, this is a valid statement. If we ignored them, this would be a much more pleasant place to visit.
 
#101 ·
It gets tricky using receivers being that signal processing issues need to be addressed as well as other factors. The Emotiva seems to be a fairly competent amp notwithstanding the slight bickering that's gone on about how the watts are measured and reported and should meet many people's needs. A few years ago I got a Carvin catalog where they compared the waveforms of their amp to some unnamed competitor using something like repeated hits of a kick drum. Theirs appeared to reproduce each kick the same while the competitor soon was rounding off things and having other issues. Running out of steam at the bottom can of course lead to other issues in the rest of the frequencies. But then, that's not what I think is meant by saying that the amps sound different. As you, I'm a proponent that it's nice to have more than enough clean power to meet one's needs.
 
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