"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 100 - AVS Forum
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post #2971 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post


My suggestion would be to set the crossover in the Denon for all your speakers to be 80 Hz (the closest number to 85 Hz that is not available as a choice). That way you will sort of match the filters in the servo controller. The Velodyne filters don't have the correct slope of 24 dB/octave, but that can't be changed so you have to live with it.

Chris


The speakers blend very nice with the sub.

I have this now:

Mains - Small - 80Hz
Center - Small - 80Hz
Surrounds - Small - 80Hz
LFE - 120Hz

Thanks for knowing a work around for my sub.

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post #2972 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 02:07 PM
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So I set up my Denon 3808 last night. Then I ran the Audyssey auto-set up and went to bed.

Got up this morning to watch some TV and it sounded like crap! So step one: Go in and set crossover to manual 80Hz all across. Step two: set the Room Eq to Audyssey Flat and that helped a lot. But boy it sounded tinny and mechanical before I did that.
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post #2973 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 02:20 PM
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Jaki,

I am by far from being an expert. Far from even being experienced end user. New to Audyssey via new 3808 myself. The first time I ran Audyssey I also was very unimpresssed. It sounded as you described, tinny. It sounded like the sound was waaaaay out there somewhere.

I have played with it a few times now, tweaking some stuff, however as Chris noted and I experienced some of those tweaks don't matter when Audyssey is run. It pays no attention to some of the tweaks.

I do not have several listening positions. I basically have four. A couch (2 places where folks sit) and two over stuffed chairs. So when i ran Audyssey the first time I did only ran 2 positions. The next time I ran five, one for each place on the couch, one for each chair. Results were much better and no tinniness. Still working on it and dialing it in.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #2974 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 02:23 PM
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Upgraded by B&K Ref 50 to an NAD T175 last week. Getting Audyssey room correction was a major factor in not waiting out the upcoming B&K Ref 70. Today I have finally had some time to play with the setup, and spend quality time reading parts of this vast thread. Lot's of good stuff here, but being so long, I don't know if I am repeating something from the past (did try to search).

Much of my questions are because I am still ignorant about how this processing function is working. I realize much is proprietary, but if there is anything published that summarizes the basic technical architecture of the processing functions, much might be obvious from that. (My degrees are in EE, and I have worked closely with some pretty heavy duty signal processing folks in my career, though that is not my specialty.)

As I gather from this thread, once the calibration process is complete, one can change crossover frequencies and even change speaker distances and gains, and the Audyssey computations will still be correctly applied. (I also understand that playing with the measured distances and gains are risky, as one should question why they know better than what was explicitly measured).

How about number of speakers? If I have a 7.1 setup, and decide to create a configuration to play 5.1 sources through just the 5.1 subset, does that affect the calibration that was done with all 7 speakers enabled?

I guess this depends on whether the output of the room calibration calculation ever ties data from one speaker channel into another in order to correct specific room modes. If the filters are all specific to a channel, than I would suppose you could turn on/off speakers without problem.

I suspect this is a question for Chris...

Again, if there were a non-proprietary block diagram/paper that shows where the Audyssey computations fit in the overall set of processing that goes from an N-channel source to an M.P channel set of speakers (where things like DD Prologic IIx fit in), that would help us technical types get a better grasp on what's happening.

Thanks!
Ken
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post #2975 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khoyme View Post


As I gather from this thread, once the calibration process is complete, one can change crossover frequencies and even change speaker distances and gains, and the Audyssey computations will still be correctly applied. (I also understand that playing with the measured distances and gains are risky, as one should question why they know better than what was explicitly measured).

How about number of speakers? If I have a 7.1 setup, and decide to create a configuration to play 5.1 sources through just the 5.1 subset, does that affect the calibration that was done with all 7 speakers enabled?

I guess this depends on whether the output of the room calibration calculation ever ties data from one speaker channel into another in order to correct specific room modes. If the filters are all specific to a channel, than I would suppose you could turn on/off speakers without problem.

Hi Ken,

You could change all of the settings that you mention, but you should only ever change the x-overs. If the speaker distances are (way) off, then try re-running Audyssey setup. As for levels, if it gets the distances right, then it is most likely that everything is correct. You may, however, prefer hotter (or more subdued) surrounds. It would not be what the filmmixer heard, but you could change the levels. Some of us goose the sub a bit.

The calibrations should be done for all channels, and the resulting filter *are* for their respective channels. Playing a 5.1 source will play only through 5.1 channels. You could, I suppose, "turn speakers off," but why would you want to?

The question about tying data from one speaker to another in order to correct room modes is *definitely* one for Chris, but I don't remember seeing anything about that.

Personally, I ran Audyssey one time, changed the front L&R x-overs and put on a movie to hear the results. It was the 4th Diehard movie - helicopter chase/tunnel scenes - and the results were STUNNING!

- Jeff
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post #2976 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 02:55 PM
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I have question about what I am looking at when I review the Audyssey EQ parameters in the 3808? The graph images. What is plotted?

Frequency added/subracted by Audyssey so what I'm seeing below the 0 line is actually what my speakers are too strong on so Audyssey subracts those freq, information above the 0 line where Audyssey adds so my speakers are weak there?

Or is it true output from my speakers so below the 0 line my speakers are weak in those areas, above the line my speakers are too strong?

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #2977 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khoyme View Post

As I gather from this thread, once the calibration process is complete, one can change crossover frequencies and even change speaker distances and gains, and the Audyssey computations will still be correctly applied. (I also understand that playing with the measured distances and gains are risky, as one should question why they know better than what was explicitly measured).

You can certainly change the crossover frequencies, but remember that the MultEQ corrections are only applied over the frequency range the system found for the speaker. So if MultEQ found that the crossover was at 100 Hz and you decided to change the crossover to 40Hz, you would just hear your speaker's raw response from 40-100 Hz - no correction over that range. The gains can also be adjusted, and since the measurement mic included is not well-controlled for sensitivity, your absolute levels may be off. You can correct that by just measuring the SPL of your fronts using the test signal and an SPL meter, find out how much you need to correct the gains, then applying that correction to all the channels.
Quote:


How about number of speakers? If I have a 7.1 setup, and decide to create a configuration to play 5.1 sources through just the 5.1 subset, does that affect the calibration that was done with all 7 speakers enabled?

I guess this depends on whether the output of the room calibration calculation ever ties data from one speaker channel into another in order to correct specific room modes. If the filters are all specific to a channel, than I would suppose you could turn on/off speakers without problem.

Each speaker is measured and corrected independent of the others, so you can enable and disable speakers at will. Just don't move the speakers around.
Quote:


Again, if there were a non-proprietary block diagram/paper that shows where the Audyssey computations fit in the overall set of processing that goes from an N-channel source to an M.P channel set of speakers (where things like DD Prologic IIx fit in), that would help us technical types get a better grasp on what's happening.

The MultEQ filtering is entirely independent of any other processing that happens before it in the chain, like the DD Prologic, etc. It just operates on whatever signal is sent to that speaker.
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post #2978 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 05:35 PM
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Watching Phantom of the Opera, well wife is, I'm listening to it. Using the Audyssey eq settings, Audyssey distance-levels, the small/80/120 settings. Sounds pretty good I must say.

Low organ notes making couch vibrate.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #2979 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

You can certainly change the crossover frequencies, but remember that the MultEQ corrections are only applied over the frequency range the system found for the speaker. So if MultEQ found that the crossover was at 100 Hz and you decided to change the crossover to 40Hz, you would just hear your speaker's raw response from 40-100 Hz - no correction over that range.

According to Chris(Audyssey), this is not 100% accurate.

Quote:


Audyssey
No, no. Not over time. What I mean is that the correction doesn't "stop" at exactly 150 Hz. It slowly reduces down to no correction as you go lower than 150 Hz. So, you still have some correction running at 149 Hz, less at 140 Hz, and so on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by saprano
so the correction doesin't go away? so if i lower it to 100hz there will still be some EQ but not as much as it woud be at 150hz? and can i change back to 150hz and get the full EQ or do i have to run the audyssey again.

Quote:


Audyssey
That's right. Think of it as slowly fading down to no correction as you go lower in frequency. You can always change back to the default value without running MultEQ again.

Chris

Very interesting stuff.

I just recently lowered my center channel xover to 80Hz from an Audyssey
recommended 100Hz and the sound has improved greatly. So, I assume
that there is still some EQ applied even down to 80Hz.

It is certainly a pleasure having Chris participate in this thread as I
have learned an enormous amount from his many posts.

Much appreciated.

Mike

Display: Pioneer PRO-151 60" Elite
Blu-ray player: OPPO BDP-93, Sony BDP-S1000ES
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Speakers: Mythos ST(Fronts), Mythos Ten(Center), Mythos One(Rears)

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post #2980 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petmic10 View Post

According to Chris(Audyssey), this is not 100% accurate.[...]

Going from 100Hz to 40Hz is significant, representing well over an octave. Considering that this area is typically the most troublesome for low-bass room interaction, I wouldn't want to give up proper mains EQ.
Also, these frequencies being redirected to the SW channel benefit from a Multeq treatment at 8x the resolution of the mains channels.

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post #2981 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 08:23 PM
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Here's a question (amateur maybe, but I just don't understand it)
Why does the Ausessey on my 805 keep puting my center channel at FULL BAND when it is only rated to go down to 75hz?
TiA.

~Dave

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post #2982 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Here's a question (amateur maybe, but I just don't understand it)
Why does the Ausessey on my 805 keep puting my center channel at FULL BAND when it is only rated to go down to 75hz?
TiA.


It is possible that the "in room" response may be different than the specs. What kind of center is it and where is it located (on a shelf, in an av rack, on top of a tv, ect)? Being near to a wall can also increase lower frequency output.
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post #2983 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

It is possible that the "in room" response may be different than the specs. What kind of center is it and where is it located (on a shelf, in an av rack, on top of a tv, ect)? Being near to a wall can also increase lower frequency output.

Sorry, should have known better than to not give more details.
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Right now it's in temp set-up till I get my new screen on the wall, and then the shelf-mont to hold it will go just below the screen. So for right now, it is sitting on top of my sub. I made some feet for on the bottom of it so as to have as little contact with the sub as possible, and to also give a slight upward tilt. The front of the CC is not quite even with the front of the sub, the CC is sitting back about 2 inches.

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post #2984 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

The next time I ran five, one for each place on the couch, one for each chair. Results were much better and no tinniness. Still working on it and dialing it in.

I really only have 2 positions. But now, doing flat and manually setting x-overs, it's good. Dunno what it's doing if anything with the audyssey, but using it to set distances was nice, but for now I trust my meter.
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post #2985 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petmic10 View Post

I just recently lowered my center channel xover to 80Hz from an Audyssey
recommended 100Hz and the sound has improved greatly. So, I assume
that there is still some EQ applied even down to 80Hz.

Yes, it is certainly true that the Audyssey filter effects don't go away abruptly at the cutoff frequency, but Chris has also in the past made it clear that the system does not attempt to extend the response past what it perceives to be the cutoff frequency, and the room can add significant and sometimes quite narrowband resonances below the Audyssey cutoff which it will not attempt to correct in the mains (but will try to correct in the sub channel).

Going from 100 Hz to 80 Hz is only about 20%, and would in most rooms be just fine (as you have found). But dropping from 150 Hz down to 80 Hz, as some folks want to do to avoid sub localization, can be problematic. Just as an aside, in what way did you find the sound improved greatly when you lowered the crossover freq?
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post #2986 of 72215 Old 04-06-2008, 11:36 PM
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Hey Audyssey,

I have 5 Bose double cubes hooked directly to Denon 3808. After ran the auto Audyssey set up, I have the following result - All 5 channels is "Small" and the crossover is 250Hz. Sub is 80Hz (Main + LFE). If I adjust the crossover for all 5 channels to 100 or 120Hz, will it be a better result? or leave if as 250Hz for all 5 channels?
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post #2987 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Here's a question (amateur maybe, but I just don't understand it)
Why does the Ausessey on my 805 keep puting my center channel at FULL BAND when it is only rated to go down to 75hz?
TiA.


Because Onkyo chose to specify a speaker with a measurable response below appr. 80 Hz as "Large/Full spectrum".
This decision is not be done by Audyssey but by the manufacturers default.
Just change it in the Setup to "Small" and You are fine.
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post #2988 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liwc_michael View Post

Hey Audyssey,

I have 5 Bose double cubes hooked directly to Denon 3808. After ran the auto Audyssey set up, I have the following result - All 5 channels is "Small" and the crossover is 250Hz. Sub is 80Hz (Main + LFE). If I adjust the crossover for all 5 channels to 100 or 120Hz, will it be a better result? or leave if as 250Hz for all 5 channels?

If the crossover is being set at 250 Hz, that means the frequency response of your speakers is dropping off significantly below that. Crossover frequency is set based on the point where the speaker's response has dropped to -3 dB, and the speaker's response is going to roll off significantly below the crossover frequency.

If you reset the crossover to 100 hz or 120 Hz, you're dropping the crossover frequency by an octave or slightly more. That's a big drop. Not only will Audyssey not be applying much correction to the speaker at that frequency, it's level will have dropped considerably and you're probably going to end up with a noticeable dip in frequency response between the old and new crossover points due to the combination of natural speaker roll off and lack of Audyssey correction for this. In other words sound will be worse, possibly quite significantly.

The Bose double cubes are quite small speakers with small drivers. You would not expect significant bass response from such speakers and the 250 Hz crossover is probably quite accurate. Bose call their bass unit a "subwoofer" but that's simply an advertising ploy. It really is the woofer for your speakers rather than a subwoofer.
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post #2989 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 03:14 AM
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HI Chris:

I have the same question as Derek. I have an Axiom EP-500 SW. It is a great sub but it has a "brickwall" filter at 100 Hz.


When I run Audyssey it sets my surround speakers with a crossover of 120 Hz, above the brickwall 100Hz of the sub. What do you recommend in this situation? I have set my Denon to crossover the surrounds at 100 Hz. Given the slopes built into the crossover settings, am I losing frequency response with this setting? I set the LFE low pass to 100 Hz in the Denon.

This question has been crazy for the past year or so. I originally used the Audyssey settings but I figured I was losing information between 100 and 120Hz.

Thank you for your help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlouw View Post

Hi Chris,

There is a question that I could not find an answer to. If a speaker is determined to need a higher crossover, say 120hz does it also determine is the subwoofer is capable of reproducing this frequency accurately? If not how does it compensate?


Thank You,
Derek

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post #2990 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

I have question about what I am looking at when I review the Audyssey EQ parameters in the 3808? The graph images. What is plotted?

That was one of my first questions too!

It plots the adjustment Audyssey is making. So when below the line, Audyssey is cutting, above the line Audyssey is boosting.

So it's the same way up as a "Manual EQ" curve.
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post #2991 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 07:15 AM
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KMO

Thanks. So basically its a mirror image of the speakers frequency output?

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #2992 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 08:08 AM
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Please, some help explaining this:

finally got a chance to run audyssy on my set-up (Def Tech 7004 mains, c/l/r 2002, and jbl surrounds until i figure out which surrounds to get) and the first couple times I ran it, i kept getting the error messege "PHASE" for my front left speaker (7004). The receiver (Denon 3808) owner's manual said this means the polarity is reversed on the speaker OR some speakers just display this message even when connected properly. Well, the speaker is connected properly.

Has anyone else had this come up when running Audyssey?

The receiver is a Denon 3808...but anyone with an Audyssey equipted reciever, you info is helpful.

I did end up "skipping" the error message and when I looked at the EQ graph after the calibration, both front speakers look pretty good and "equal."

I'm totally confused?!?!
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post #2993 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 08:11 AM
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Slight change of subject; I recently ran-in a new set of speakers (Focal JMLabs Chorus 816WSE lovely things plus matching centre and SR800V surrounds...) and while I love their stereo musical performance *without* Audyssey there is still a noticeable bass resonance in the room. MultiEQ XT (Denon 4306) works great for TV viewing and films but I want to retain the character of the speakers for stereo.

Trying EQ: Flat loses me lots of character in the low end (I like feeling a kick drum...) so if I use "EQ: Front" but with the LFE channel enabled at a 80Hz x-over, will the Denon leave the front channels alone but - and this is the important thing - apply EQ to the S/W ?

Not had a chance to play and listen, but I hope this is the right direction to go in.
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post #2994 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don't h8 View Post

Please, some help explaining this:

finally got a chance to run audyssy on my set-up (Def Tech 7004 mains, c/l/r 2002, and jbl surrounds until i figure out which surrounds to get) and the first couple times I ran it, i kept getting the error messege "PHASE" for my front left speaker (7004). The receiver (Denon 3808) owner's manual said this means the polarity is reversed on the speaker OR some speakers just display this message even when connected properly. Well, the speaker is connected properly.

Has anyone else had this come up when running Audyssey?

The receiver is a Denon 3808...but anyone with an Audyssey equipted reciever, you info is helpful.

I did end up "skipping" the error message and when I looked at the EQ graph after the calibration, both front speakers look pretty good and "equal."

I'm totally confused?!?!

The Phase warning is just that: a warning. Some manufacturers wire one of the drivers in their speakers out-of-phase intentionally in order to address crossover blending issues. If the wires are connected correctly, then you don't have to worry about it. Just check on both ends (back of receiver and back of speaker).

Chris

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post #2995 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

So I set up my Denon 3808 last night. Then I ran the Audyssey auto-set up and went to bed.

Got up this morning to watch some TV and it sounded like crap! So step one: Go in and set crossover to manual 80Hz all across. Step two: set the Room Eq to Audyssey Flat and that helped a lot. But boy it sounded tinny and mechanical before I did that.

The reason for the tinny sound is that your subwoofer was not playing any sound before you made this change. That's what Large means: "don't send signal to my subwoofer". Audyssey doesn't decide on that setting and it's the most common question that we get. Setting speakers to Small fixes it as you found. I would suggest not using the Audyssey Flat setting for TV unless you have THX turned on to take care of the high frequency roll-off.

Chris

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post #2996 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 09:39 AM
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Quote:


QUOTE=fyzziks;13576575]Yes, it is certainly true that the Audyssey filter effects don't go away abruptly at the cutoff frequency, but Chris has also in the past made it clear that the system does not attempt to extend the response past what it perceives to be the cutoff frequency, and the room can add significant and sometimes quite narrowband resonances below the Audyssey cutoff which it will not attempt to correct in the mains (but will try to correct in the sub channel).

Going from 100 Hz to 80 Hz is only about 20%, and would in most rooms be just fine (as you have found). But dropping from 150 Hz down to 80 Hz, as some folks want to do to avoid sub localization, can be problematic. Just as an aside, in what way did you find the sound improved greatly when you lowered the crossover freq?

My center channel sounded much fuller and seem to flow better with
my mains. Voices were much clearer and it just provided a better overall
movie experience. My center is capable of going down to 31Hz, but I
was always worried of changing it to a lower crossover than what Audyssey
figured for the fear of losing the EQ that Audyssey provides.

Display: Pioneer PRO-151 60" Elite
Blu-ray player: OPPO BDP-93, Sony BDP-S1000ES
HD DVD player: Toshiba HD-XA2(2)
Processor: Onkyo PR-SC885
Amplifier: Emotiva IPS-1 150Wx7
Game Console: Xbox 360, PS3
Speakers: Mythos ST(Fronts), Mythos Ten(Center), Mythos One(Rears)

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post #2997 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Jaki,

I am by far from being an expert. Far from even being experienced end user. New to Audyssey via new 3808 myself. The first time I ran Audyssey I also was very unimpresssed. It sounded as you described, tinny. It sounded like the sound was waaaaay out there somewhere.

I have played with it a few times now, tweaking some stuff, however as Chris noted and I experienced some of those tweaks don't matter when Audyssey is run. It pays no attention to some of the tweaks.

I do not have several listening positions. I basically have four. A couch (2 places where folks sit) and two over stuffed chairs. So when i ran Audyssey the first time I did only ran 2 positions. The next time I ran five, one for each place on the couch, one for each chair. Results were much better and no tinniness. Still working on it and dialing it in.

Jim,

One important thing to note: the number of measurements is not the same as the number of listening positions. We recommend taking the maximum you have available in your system (i.e. 8 for MultEQ XT) even if you only sit in one seat. The algorithm needs to have as much information about the listening space as possible and this can only be done by sampling multiple points. Try to avoid going too far off-axis and near walls, but other than that try to take at least 6 measurements around the main listening area. If you search back a few pages you will find the recommended pattern for placing the mic in most rooms.

Chris

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post #2998 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter Galbavy View Post

Slight change of subject; I recently ran-in a new set of speakers (Focal JMLabs Chorus 816WSE lovely things plus matching centre and SR800V surrounds...) and while I love their stereo musical performance *without* Audyssey there is still a noticeable bass resonance in the room. MultiEQ XT (Denon 4306) works great for TV viewing and films but I want to retain the character of the speakers for stereo.

Trying EQ: Flat loses me lots of character in the low end (I like feeling a kick drum...) so if I use "EQ: Front" but with the LFE channel enabled at a 80Hz x-over, will the Denon leave the front channels alone but - and this is the important thing - apply EQ to the S/W ?

Not had a chance to play and listen, but I hope this is the right direction to go in.

Peter,

Yes, if you use "Front L/R Bypass" the two front speakers will not be corrected, but the subwoofer will (as will all the other speakers if you listen in surround).

Chris

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post #2999 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 10:32 AM
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Two questions about my surrounds.

1. I have NHT dipoles as my surrounds. Per NHT directions I wired these out phase. Does Audyssy let this stand or has it put them in phase. If the latter, how do I correct this?

2. My rear speakers are NHT ceiling mid quality speakers placed too cloase ot the side, ceiling, and rear walls with lots of resonances. Audyssy MultiEQ has set these speakers a 40 HZ (BTW it did this for the good NHT dipoles (70 hz is specThe specs show them as 80 hz.)

In order to get away from the heavy rear bass I am getting I set the cutoff at 200 and decreased the tone control for the rears all the way done. The system sounds ok-but of course rear bass is not right-just gone.

Is there a better way to handle this other than moving the speakers (not an option right now)?

Joel
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post #3000 of 72215 Old 04-07-2008, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Jim,

Try to avoid going too far off-axis and near walls, but other than that try to take at least 6 measurements around the main listening area.

Chris

is there a minimum distance from boundaries that you recommend?
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