"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1006 - AVS Forum
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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
Roger Dressler's Avatar Roger Dressler 07:20 PM 08-27-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Yes it does! That's because Tom Holman insisted that they add these based on the USC work on 10.2.

Cool. And whose idea was it to make the HD-DVD and Blu-ray formats support all those channels so we could enjoy them at home? That would be me. [/horn toot]

audyssey's Avatar audyssey 09:40 PM 08-27-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Cool. And whose idea was it to make the HD-DVD and Blu-ray formats support all those channels so we could enjoy them at home? That would be me. [/horn toot]

Nice! Now all we need is someone to make an 10 or 11 channel movie... Do you have Spielberg's phone number handy?
audyssey's Avatar audyssey 09:44 PM 08-27-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

Does DSX also provide an alternative to Dolby PL2x for back surrounds -> therefor expanding 5.1 content to 7.1/9.1/11.1 (depending on having wide and/or height speakers as well)?

If the algorithms are so much more advanced than PL2x than certainly DSX would have benefits for generating back surrounds as well.

Nope. DSX creates content for the Wides and Heights starting with 5.1 content. Back Surrounds are already created by today's upmixing algorithms. However, if you do decide to use the Back Surrounds then DSX will apply Surround Envelopment Processing to blend them better with the main surrounds and the fronts.
Roger Dressler's Avatar Roger Dressler 10:14 PM 08-27-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Nice! Now all we need is someone to make an 10 or 11 channel movie... Do you have Spielberg's phone number handy?

Sorry, I'm just the plumber. For that you gotta call the city water department.
TheLion's Avatar TheLion 02:07 AM 08-28-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Nope. DSX creates content for the Wides and Heights starting with 5.1 content. Back Surrounds are already created by today's upmixing algorithms. However, if you do decide to use the Back Surrounds then DSX will apply Surround Envelopment Processing to blend them better with the main surrounds and the fronts.

Exactly. But you keep stating that DSX processing is much more advanced than "simple" matrix upmixing like PL2x.

So why not use it for backk channels as well?
markus767's Avatar markus767 03:56 AM 08-28-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

Exactly. But you keep stating that DSX processing is much more advanced than "simple" matrix upmixing like PL2x.

So why not use it for backk channels as well?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post19110913
gamelover360's Avatar gamelover360 05:37 AM 08-28-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

BGC is a good idea, but I think it's not needed when you are actually measuring the sub in your room. It's a fixed solution to a problem that varies depending on the exact distance of the sub from the walls and floor. So, I guess it doesn't really matter if you have it on or off. MultEQ will measure through it either way and make the needed adjustments.
I don't know what the THX Subwoofer setting Yes or No actually does. I think it simply enables the BGC control that is only available if you have a THX sub.

I think you are right. I actually turned off Audyssey EQ, and listened to some subwoofer sweeps from 15 hz to about 100hz....with THX subwoofer on and off. I heard no difference in extension or output.
Gary J's Avatar Gary J 05:38 AM 08-28-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Roger,

True, and likewise in the home listening arena the problem is never in showing their value to the obsessives that frequent this forum. However, I should add that there are normal consumer folks who may place a totally different benefits to cost ratio when considering the necessity of upgrading to new multichannel AVRs/PrePros, adding speakers, power amplifiers, etc.

Larry

Yes, after 7.1, lossless and Room EQ what is left for the industry to promote if not more channels? I find myself more interested in the continuing improvements in EQ than more channels.
pepar's Avatar pepar 09:54 AM 08-28-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post


Nice! Now all we need is someone to make an 10 or 11 channel movie... Do you have Spielberg's phone number handy?

I would think that James Cameron would be more likely to experiment with this.
pepar's Avatar pepar 10:47 AM 08-28-2010
Chris, when will MultEQ XT 32 be added as a search option on your "find products with Audyssey" web page? Also, pre/pros are mis-classified as AV receivers making searching a matter of knowing in advance what model numbers are pre/pros or reading all of the fine print.
audyssey's Avatar audyssey 12:31 PM 08-28-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Chris, when will MultEQ XT 32 be added as a search option on your "find products with Audyssey" web page? Also, pre/pros are mis-classified as AV receivers making searching a matter of knowing in advance what model numbers are pre/pros or reading all of the fine print.

The web team will be adding the new models soon.
Johnla's Avatar Johnla 08:29 PM 08-28-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I would think that James Cameron would be more likely to experiment with this.


Maybe he has that planned for when he does his 3rd or 4th re-release of the ongoing Avatar money grab....
jedrgy's Avatar jedrgy 09:39 PM 08-28-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post


Maybe he has that planned for when he does his 3rd or 4th re-release of the ongoing Avatar money grab....

Agreed!
gamelover360's Avatar gamelover360 02:02 AM 08-29-2010
I can report that Pro graphs look no different with THX subwoofer set to yes or no. I have also listened to some frequency sweeps and could here no difference. So if there is any difference (which I doubt seriously) it is too small to be measured or heard by me.
pulse's Avatar pulse 03:01 AM 08-29-2010
Does anyone know if i change from 4ohm mode to 6ohm mode in the speaker setup menu in my Onkyo 876 if i'll need to re-run an Audyssey calibration again ?
Hugo S's Avatar Hugo S 03:30 AM 08-29-2010
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by pulse View Post

Does anyone know if i change from 4ohm mode to 6ohm mode in the speaker setup menu in my Onkyo 876 if i'll need to re-run an Audyssey calibration again ?

Yes... as it is indicated in the user manual.

Hugo
pulse's Avatar pulse 04:08 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post

Hi,



Yes... as it is indicated in the user manual.

Hugo

Ok many thanks for confirmation Hugo, I thought i had read that somewhere before that i would need to re-calibrate but could'nt remember where
markus767's Avatar markus767 05:41 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The curves you posted are just a measurement of the static Dynamic EQ response. What's missing is the most important part: the Dynamic part! The adjustment being applied depends on two factors: (1) the volume control setting (those are the curves in the picture) and (2) a real time estimation of the content loudness in each channel. That last part is the tricky one to get right. Think of it this way: content comes along and it varies between soft and louder parts as its playing. Then you turn the volume down. The softer parts will need different adjustment than the louder parts. The trick is to do this with the right time constants so you don't have the listener go crazy. The other trick is to make sure you are not messing the spatial balance of the mix (in surround). And finally, you have to come up with the right way to measure loudness in real time.

Hi Chris,

I think this is not what we want to do. We don't want the loudness compensation EQ to change within a single track. This track was mixed at a certain fixed reference level, so the compensating equal-loudness contour EQ must not change as long as the overall listening level is not changed.

Another observation: the compensation curves of Volume EQ look different from the curves in ISO226:2003. What is the reason for this rather huge difference?

Best, Markus
Mactavish's Avatar Mactavish 05:44 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

I can report that Pro graphs look no different with THX subwoofer set to yes or no. I have also listened to some frequency sweeps and could here no difference. So if there is any difference (which I doubt seriously) it is too small to be measured or heard by me.

Thanks for doing the test and reporting back!
mogorf's Avatar mogorf 07:09 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Hi Chris,

I think this is not what we want to do. We don't want the loudness compensation EQ to change within a single track. This track was mixed at a certain fixed reference level, so the compensating equal-loudness contour EQ must not change as long as the overall listening level is not changed.

Another observation: the compensation curves of Volume EQ look different from the curves in ISO226:2003. What is the reason for this rather huge difference?

Best, Markus

Markus, I want Dynamic EQ to work as it was designed by Audyssey experts, i.e. to compensate in real-time whenever the MV is set to anything else than 0 dB. That's the whole idea of Dynamic EQing and to me it makes perfect sense. Think it over again, please.......and you'll surely get to the same conclusion.
Gary J's Avatar Gary J 07:15 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Markus, I want Dynamic EQ to work as it was designed by Audyssey experts, i.e. to compensate in real-time whenever the MV is set to anything else than 0 dB. That's the whole idea of Dymanic EQing and to me it makes perfect sense. Think it over again, please.......and you'll surely get to the same conclusion.

Are you saying you are going with 10 years of research at Audyssey Labs over an internet poster?
markus767's Avatar markus767 07:58 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Markus, I want Dynamic EQ to work as it was designed by Audyssey experts, i.e. to compensate in real-time whenever the MV is set to anything else than 0 dB. That's the whole idea of Dymanic EQing and to me it makes perfect sense. Think it over again, please.......and you'll surely get to the same conclusion.

What is MV? Master Volume? If yes, then we're on the same page but Audyssey is not. You might want to reread Chris' post. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting what he's saying.
mogorf's Avatar mogorf 08:09 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

What is MV? Master Volume? If yes, then we're on the same page but Audyssey is not. You might want to reread Chris' post. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting what he's saying.

MV = Master Volume

Chris in his referred post explains how Dynamic EQ works exactly for louder and softer parts within a given MV setting. 10 years of research has yielded such a fine, yet sophisticated product. Any reason to deny Audyssey Labs expertise? Better way would be to study it a bit more, eh?
larryis1's Avatar larryis1 08:11 AM 08-29-2010
The default setting on my Onkyo TR-SX608 for LPF of LFE is 120 Hz (this is also the setting I get after I run Audyssey). What is the criteria for changing this setting to say for example 80Hz? I read the Onkyo AVR manual and it discusses filtering out unwanted hum as an element (I do not appear to get hum at either 120 or 80 Hz).

I am using the Energy Take Classic 5.1 speaker system (including the provided Subwoofer (see following URL for speaker specifications).

Also, the Audyssey set-up provided a distance of 14 ft. from the main seating position to the SW, the distance is more like 12 ft. Is there any harm of mannually changing this setting in the Onkyo?

Another question, my center channel shows 70 Hz, whereas the side fronts shows 80 Hz. THX. Is there any harm or benefit to change the center to 80 Hz. THX or just leave it at the 70 Hz. setting?

If I manually change setting (Hz) or LPF for LFE, or distance from the SW to the main listening position... do I need to re-run Audyssey?

Any feedback on my questions would greatly be appreciated?

Best Regards
pepar's Avatar pepar 08:20 AM 08-29-2010
Like it or not, Audyssey is using their research to go beyond even a dynamic adjustment of a static loudness compensation curve, i.e. here's the curve for this delta from reference, here's the curve for for that one, etc. And personally, I like it. With the roster at that company and their depth of experience in the film industry (and music industry based on the interviews and endorsements), how could someone with an interest in taking their theater to higher levels not like it?

We are getting Tomlinson Holman In A Box. Yea, I'm a fanboy.

edit: So I don't sound like a complete idiot (an incomplete idiot?), I want to qualify that.

I was a skeptic first. MultEQ XT "came along for the ride" when I bought my OP 885. When it equalized my LCR behind an AT screen to where the front soundstage sounded infinitely better than I had ever been able to make it sound, I sold my Rane 1/3-oct equalizers. When it cleaned up my bass far better than I had ever been able to do, I sold my Rane PE17. There was revelation upon revelation as I added an AS-EQ1 and Pro.

That's why I am a fanboy.
pepar's Avatar pepar 08:22 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryis1 View Post

The default setting on my Onkyo TR-SX608 for LPF of LFE is 120 Hz (this is also the setting I get after I run Audyssey). What is the criteria for changing this setting to say for example 80Hz?

There is no criteria for changing the LPF on LFE; it should always be 120Hz. Better yet, there shouldn't even be a "setting" for it.
audyssey's Avatar audyssey 09:16 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Hi Chris,

I think this is not what we want to do. We don't want the loudness compensation EQ to change within a single track. This track was mixed at a certain fixed reference level, so the compensating equal-loudness contour EQ must not change as long as the overall listening level is not changed.

Actually it is exactly what's needed. When the track was mixed at the "fixed" level they were listening to the softer and louder parts of that track and making decisions about the mix. Now, when you turn down the level the softer part of the track turns down more (in the bass region) because the loudness curves are not parallel! They start to diverge as you go lower in level. Therefore the soft part of the track now needs different adjustment than the loud part that falls on a different curve.

Quote:
Another observation: the compensation curves of Volume EQ look different from the curves in ISO226:2003. What is the reason for this rather huge difference?

Our internal research results and listening panels.
markus767's Avatar markus767 09:39 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Actually it is exactly what's needed. When the track was mixed at the "fixed" level they were listening to the softer and louder parts of that track and making decisions about the mix. Now, when you turn down the level the softer part of the track turns down more (in the bass region) because the loudness curves are not parallel! They start to diverge as you go lower in level. Therefore the soft part of the track now needs different adjustment than the loud part that falls on a different curve.

Got it, thanks. I misread your reply to Larry's post. Those graphs do show Audyssey's compensation curves at certain loudness levels but they are dynamically applied based on the actual program loudness relative to the reference level.
LarryChanin's Avatar LarryChanin 09:47 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Has anybody ever measured the compensation contours of Dynamic EQ? I once did this for Dolby Volume but they looked wrong when compared to the equal-loudness contours defined in ISO 226:2003

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

That's because the equal loudness contours are not appropriate for listening to audio programs. They measured sensitivity to sine waves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Another observation: the compensation curves of Volume EQ look different from the curves in ISO226:2003. What is the reason for this rather huge difference?

Best, Markus

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Our internal research results and listening panels.

Hi Chris,

In Roger's quote above in responding to a similar question, he states that using sine waves as test signals for determining perceptual equal loudness curves is not appropriate when listening to more complex audio content.

Can you please provide your insights on this issue?

Thanks.

Larry
Jeremy Anderson's Avatar Jeremy Anderson 09:50 AM 08-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryis1 View Post

The default setting on my Onkyo TR-SX608 for LPF of LFE is 120 Hz (this is also the setting I get after I run Audyssey). What is the criteria for changing this setting to say for example 80Hz? I read the Onkyo AVR manual and it discusses filtering out unwanted hum as an element (I do not appear to get hum at either 120 or 80 Hz).

I am using the Energy Take Classic 5.1 speaker system (including the provided Subwoofer (see following URL for speaker specifications).

Also, the Audyssey set-up provided a distance of 14 ft. from the main seating position to the SW, the distance is more like 12 ft. Is there any harm of mannually changing this setting in the Onkyo?

Another question, my center channel shows 70 Hz, whereas the side fronts shows 80 Hz. THX. Is there any harm or benefit to change the center to 80 Hz. THX or just leave it at the 70 Hz. setting?

If I manually change setting (Hz) or LPF for LFE, or distance from the SW to the main listening position... do I need to re-run Audyssey?

Any feedback on my questions would greatly be appreciated?

Best Regards

LPF of LFE should always be left at 120Hz, since the LFE channel itself extends to 120Hz. It only exists on the Onkyos to maintain compatibility with subwoofers designed around THX specs that don't allow for 80-120Hz reproduction from the sub. Good to see that Onkyo is defaulting to 120Hz instead of 80Hz now.

Audyssey's subwoofer distance measurement takes into account delay caused by the amp in your sub as well as room acoustics. This will not always line up with actual physical distance, but should be the proper setting to put your subwoofer in phase with your other speakers, so I wouldn't change it.

There's no harm in bumping up your center to 80Hz from 70Hz. You just never want to go DOWN (i.e. from 80 to 70) because the detected point is where Audyssey stops EQ'ing.

Changing any of these settings won't require you to re-run Audyssey.
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