"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 102 - AVS Forum
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post #3031 of 72584 Old 04-07-2008, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

While I'm probably not going to settle on manual settings simply because of all what Audyssey does, I will at least be playing with the manual eq after writing down the results Audyssey gets on those graphs.


Jim,

In the 3808 you can actually transfer the results Audyssey finds to the Manual EQ. Well, sort of... The Audyssey filters use several hundred coefficients to model the measured response and create an inverse filter. The Manual EQ is simply a parametric equalizer with 9 bands. It works only in the frequency domain and does no time domain correction. So the "transfer" of hundreds of points to 9 bands is not exactly ideal, but a good starting point if you want to play with it. Of course, Audyssey is turned off when you switch to manual so they don't work at the same time.

Also, to answer your other question: every internal setting of the receiver is ignored when you run the calibration. This includes levels, delays, crossovers, manual EQ, tone controls.


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post #3032 of 72584 Old 04-07-2008, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Hello everybody.

I did a search of this thread for "speaker switches" and "boundary" but I haven't found exactly what I'm looking for, so I apologize if this question is intolerably noobistic.

I'm looking at bookshelf speakers for my front LCR, and there is a subset of bookshelf speakers that are labelled "in-cabinet". The in-cabinet speakers have "boundary switches" (which are -3 dB woofer adjustment) and also sometimes a tweeter switch +3dB, 0 dB, -3 dB.

If I have an AVR that has Audyssey (looking at Onkyo 875) do I need to consider these "in-cabinet" speakers, or will Audyssey do all the necessary adjustments for boundary effects?

Until I started following this thread a few days ago, I felt like I was stuck with finding speakers with these switches (at least the boundary switch), but after reading some of this thread I'm thinking it isn't necessary. Maybe not even desirable.

I would suggest starting with the boundary switches flat and let MultEQ measure the cabinet effect on your speakers in your room rather than use a generic cabinet correction.

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post #3033 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 06:36 AM
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"....a coarse representation of the filters set in the frequency domain and does not indicate filters in the time domain."

I just love it when you talk dirty to me like that pepar.


E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3034 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 06:38 AM
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Chris,

I'm still working on exactly what it is I'm seeing when I look at the fq graph for eq adjustments. Those are the corrections Audyssey sets? Is that correct. So if its below the line, Audyssey has subtracted those frequencies?

So while it isn't exactly a mirror image of my speaker frequency production, it is a mirror image of the frequencies Audyssey measures in the room? So lets say the graph is below the 0 line. Audyssey measured those particular frequencies high so it subtracted them and hence the graph is below the line?

"use several hundred coefficients"

Yes, very impressive.

Edit: "transfer the results Audyssey finds to the Manual EQ" I'll hit the 3808's manual to see how that is done tonight.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3035 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"....a coarse representation of the filters set in the frequency domain and does not indicate filters in the time domain."

Hey, wasn't that an Eloi?
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post #3036 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

No. The first measurement also captures the frequency response there and that information is combined with the other measurements to produce the MultEQ filters.

2) From what I read you recommend the 3-3-2 pattern when setting up the mic. Three measurement position across the main listening seat, 3 more 2 ft in front of the main listening seat and if possible 2 more in the back of the main seat if not back wall. Here is my question, is there is something wrong with setting up the mic in 2-2-2 or a 2-3-2 pattern? The reason for me doing this is that that my love seat is a little bit off-center. The left side is centered with the TV. If I place the mic two feet off that the mic will be too close to a lamp that I have on top of a end table.

The "2 ft." recommendation is approximate and will vary in individual cases. I just use it as a guideline because some people early on were moving the mic 5-6 ft every time and that wasn't capturing the needed information in the main listening area.

Chris

Thanks Chris and the other posters for their suggestions. I ran Audyssey late last night and I used all 8 measurement points (probably overkill for my 12x16 room but). Two on the love seat, three about 2 feet in front and three in the back of the love seat. I need to listen to the results a little bit more to see if I like it. While placing the mic in the back it got me thinking wouldn't the measurement there affect the fronts since the seat is blocking most of the direct sound? I made sure the mic was not blocked by the love seat.
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post #3037 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rveras View Post

Thanks Chris and the other posters for their suggestions. I ran Audyssey late last night and I used all 8 measurement points (probably overkill for my 12x16 room but). Two on the love seat, three about 2 feet in front and three in the back of the love seat. I need to listen to the results a little bit more to see if I like it. While placing the mic in the back it got me thinking wouldn't the measurement there affect the fronts since the seat is blocking most of the direct sound? I made sure the mic was not blocked by the love seat.

Is the seat back higher than the ears of seated individuals?
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post #3038 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Is the seat back higher than the ears of seated individuals?


No. The mic was at ear hight with puts it higher than the seat back. However I was thinking since the seat is in front of the mic most of the sound will be absorbed by the love seat which maybe could screw up things up, I think.
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post #3039 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rveras View Post

No. The mic was at ear hight with puts it higher than the seat back. However I was thinking since the seat is in front of the mic most of the sound will be absorbed by the love seat which maybe could screw up things up, I think.

I think as long as the mic can "see" all of the speakers and is at least several inches above the seat back, there would be no blocking. If the love seat is plastic or leather or some other similar material, there might be a concern re reflections. A cloth love seat, I don't think, would have that potential problem.

How does it sound? How did it sound before?

- Jeff
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post #3040 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 11:15 AM
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Well, last night I noticed some odd artifacts coming from the left surround speaker. I went in to the manual setting and noticed the distance was way off.

I'm tempted to just go back to using an SPL meter. If I use a ruler for the distances and an SPL meter for the levels can I still have Audyssey to the RoomEQ? And would there be any reason to?
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post #3041 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 11:23 AM
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Chris,

"As I have responded before, this only applies to satellite speakers and not subs. "

Oops, I forgot; thanks for the correction.

Still, though less likely, the same points could be made for satellites.

In fact, I have LCR's in the works using low-Q 12" Eighteen sound pro drivers which may have an EBS tuning.

Noah
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post #3042 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I think as long as the mic can "see" all of the speakers and is at least several inches above the seat back, there would be no blocking. If the love seat is plastic or leather or some other similar material, there might be a concern re reflections. A cloth love seat, I don't think, would have that potential problem.

How does it sound? How did it sound before?

- Jeff

It is a cloth love seat. As for how does it sounds, well I need to do more careful listening before I judge. I did the test pretty late last night so I didn't have time to really crank up the system plus I was really tired. One improvement I immediately noticed was that voices and sounds from the surround speakers were more clear.
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post #3043 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Hello everybody.

I did a search of this thread for "speaker switches" and "boundary" but I haven't found exactly what I'm looking for, so I apologize if this question is intolerably noobistic.

I'm looking at bookshelf speakers for my front LCR, and there is a subset of bookshelf speakers that are labelled "in-cabinet". The in-cabinet speakers have "boundary switches" (which are -3 dB woofer adjustment) and also sometimes a tweeter switch +3dB, 0 dB, -3 dB.

If I have an AVR that has Audyssey (looking at Onkyo 875) do I need to consider these "in-cabinet" speakers, or will Audyssey do all the necessary adjustments for boundary effects?

Until I started following this thread a few days ago, I felt like I was stuck with finding speakers with these switches (at least the boundary switch), but after reading some of this thread I'm thinking it isn't necessary. Maybe not even desirable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I would suggest starting with the boundary switches flat and let MultEQ measure the cabinet effect on your speakers in your room rather than use a generic cabinet correction.

Chris

Chris, thank you for the reply. I just want to say that the support you provide in this forum is truly amazing. I notice the times and the days you are on here. Amazing.

I apologize if my question wasn't clear enough. I was not asking how to run Audyssey with speakers having these boundary compensation switches. I was asking if there is any advantage or reason to buy speakers with boundary and/or treble +- 3dB switches. There are a lot more speakers without these switches, many of which I would prefer to have ... as long as the "adjustments" needed to correct boundary effects (or room brightness in the case of the treble switch) can be done by Audyssey.

My problem is near total ignorance of exactly what Audyssey does. I mean does it detect the abnormally loud woofer response of each individual speaker with a boundary boost and adjust each individual speaker appropriately? The switch on the speakers that have this switch would either be 0dB or -3dB for the woofer (and all of it's associated frequencies). Would Audyssey apply a more precise decrease than the "take it or leave it: -3dB", i.e., some fraction of -3dB or perhaps even more than -3dB? And does Audyssey apply it's correction to just the frequencies that need it, as opposed to the whole spectrum of frequencies coming from the woofer?
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post #3044 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petmic10 View Post

Chris,






I have since set my rears to small(X@ 80hz) and turned double
bass to "On". I was afraid of damaging my rear speakers by leaving
them at Full Range. After the change it seems that the front of the
room is more bass heavy now. My subwoofer is located directlly behind
my front right speaker.

I actually liked the original Audyssey settings of Full Range for fronts
and rears with double bass "off". The sound was much more dynamic
and the bass did not sound localized.

Any thoughts or ideas?


Could someone please explain what is meant by "double bass?" - Is this a feature of Audyssey, or of a particular AVR or pre-pro?

Thanks,
Jim Cate
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post #3045 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

Could someone please explain what is meant by "double bass?" - Is this a feature of Audyssey, or of a particular AVR or pre-pro?

Thanks,
Jim Cate

This is a feature of the receiver and it is only active if the fronts are set up as Large.
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post #3046 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rveras View Post

It is a cloth love seat. As for how does it sounds, well I need to do more careful listening before I judge. I did the test pretty late last night so I didn't have time to really crank up the system plus I was really tired. One improvement I immediately noticed was that voices and sounds from the surround speakers were more clear.

I would call that integration of the surrounds with the mains. Audyssey had the same effect on my room/system as well. Sounds coming off the screen into the room sounded the same regardless of where they "went." Overall clarity jumped. My bottom was very good before having just added 29 lineal feet of 24" face studiotips superchunk to all front "corners" in a room that's 13x21x8. It is even better now.

Crank it up!
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post #3047 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 01:08 PM
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I want folks to know that this morning I was very dissappointed. I got on-line and found this thread had been relegated to page 2. That is very unacceptable. I expect a great deal more than that. In no way should this thread ever get dropped from page 1.

Now lets get with it here.

Tonight I'm hoping to do the 2 feet in front of thing and redo calculations. NCAA was too good to not watch last night. And then I'll be watching the AVP Requiem blue ray. Each time I learn something here, reset, tweak, dial in Audyssey it is earning its own kudos. It does provide a lot more bang for the buck than MACC/YPAO. That bigger bang for the buck does come with a little learning curve. Not much, but there is some.

As a side benefit the model of the frequency response for our real world listening environments to me is priceless. How much would it cost us to either have the equipment or pay someone to create a similiar model? I can see easily what the dynamics of all the "stuff" in my room is doing and correct it as I see fit. Really valuable piece of information and its part of the deal. Quite impressed.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3048 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 02:14 PM
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After running Audyssey, my subwoofer's distance is incorrectly reported as being about 1 meter less than it actually is. Should I leave it as Audyssey found it, or should I set the correct distance manually?

Thanks!
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post #3049 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 02:29 PM
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mt...

I believe the consensus is leave it as Audyssey finds it. While I could be mistaken though, I think what most of us complain about is Audyssey (MACC and YPAO for that matter) report the sw being futher than it actually is not closer. How were the measurements for distance of your other speakers? So when it reports it closer than it is, I'm not 100 percent sure what to tell you.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3050 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 03:03 PM
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Chris,

I didn't see this asked earlier ... apologies if I missed it ...

I have two subs (and may eventually go to four subs.) I currently run the two subs in "mono" mode via a "Y" connector.

Several folks have told me that subs should not be optimized individually but as a "collective mono sub".

My question: given that I have extra channels on my Audyssey processor, should I continue to run the two subs in mono off one Audyssey output, or, put the "Y" connector before the Audyssey and let it equalize each sub independently?

Would your answer change if I had four subs?
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post #3051 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

Chris,

I didn't see this asked earlier ... apologies if I missed it ...

I have two subs (and may eventually go to four subs.) I currently run the two subs in "mono" mode via a "Y" connector.

Several folks have told me that subs should not be optimized individually but as a "collective mono sub".

My question: given that I have extra channels on my Audyssey processor, should I continue to run the two subs in mono off one Audyssey output, or, put the "Y" connector before the Audyssey and let it equalize each sub independently?

Would your answer change if I had four subs?

Bruce,

In our experiments we found that y-cording the subs as "one" gives better results (2 or 4 doesn't matter). What's important, though, is to make sure that they are set to the same SPL level and delay. The first part is easier to do than the second. If you can keep them at approximately the same distance from the main listening seat that would be best.

Chris

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post #3052 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtsag View Post

After running Audyssey, my subwoofer's distance is incorrectly reported as being about 1 meter less than it actually is. Should I leave it as Audyssey found it, or should I set the correct distance manually?

Thanks!

Jim is right, most of the time the distance reported is farther than the physical distance. That's because of the additional delay in lowpass filters and DSP in the sub. A shorter distance is unusual...Unless it's reported as 0.1 ft. which indicates a known firmware corruption that seems to happen when data loss occurs during an internet update. What type of subwoofer do you have?

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post #3053 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 05:44 PM
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Watching AVP Requiem. Sounds great. Ran the 8 places. I only thought I was impressed with the math in Audyssey. While I was running the test I was standing in the room, waiting to move the microphone around to the 8 places. When it got all done and I pulled off the graphs of the eq "maps", I put them together like an overhead, and man, it perfectly outlined my body. I could see exactly where I was standing in the gaps from the freq maps. Now that there's some darn good math.....

Ok, back to planet earth. Sounds good. EQ is probably not what I would have guessed based on what I know my speakers to reporduce. Its really interesting to see the effects of all the stuff in the room. AVP Requiem sounds really good. Opening scenes really catch your attention!

I did go to the manual eq section of the 3808's menu and copied the curve. Not using it on manual eq but I did copy the curve for later fooling around.

So far movie better than AVP by the way.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3054 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 05:53 PM
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I don't understand Bruce's question. The Audyssey processor have seperate sw outputs and have outputs that can be "before" and "after" Audyssey corrections?

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3055 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rveras View Post

This is a feature of the receiver and it is only active if the fronts are set up as Large.

Which receiver? Or is this a feature common to most of the new units?

Jim
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post #3056 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 07:05 PM
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I moved the subwoofer from behind the couch to the front side wall. Before it was 3' away. Now it is 9' away. This made a big difference. Audyssey coud not correct problem with the near field sub and the close rear surrounds.
Placing the sub on the side wall at a distance seems to enable Audyssey to do its thing for all 8 speakers.

I am impressed with the current results.

Joel
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post #3057 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

Which receiver? Or is this a feature common to most of the new units?

Jim

Onkyo/Integra. Don't know about other brands.
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post #3058 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 08:09 PM
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double bass?

You talking about lfe+main?

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3059 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

double bass?

You talking about lfe+main?

Sort-of... it's a setting you can apply, to route the bass from the front channels into the subwoofer when the front channels are set to outout "full band", or as the term most recognize, "large". So then you would have the lower tone from the front speakers playing through both the front speakers AND through the sub.

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post #3060 of 72584 Old 04-08-2008, 08:48 PM
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What is the fuss about this software that comes with some A/R and all the questions, why not just use the Rat Shack meter and test each separate speakers and that is that, problem solved. Why is ever one asking this and that about the software just get back to basics?

Ralph
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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