"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 103 - AVS Forum
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post #3061 of 73216 Old 04-08-2008, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by zapper View Post

What is the fuss about this software that comes with some A/R and all the questions, why not just use the Rat Shack meter and test each separate speakers and that is that, problem solved. Why is ever one asking this and that about the software just get back to basics?

Because the software is capable of making improvements well beyond what you can do with a sound level meter.

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post #3062 of 73216 Old 04-08-2008, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by zapper View Post

What is the fuss about this software that comes with some A/R and all the questions, why not just use the Rat Shack meter and test each separate speakers and that is that, problem solved. Why is ever one asking this and that about the software just get back to basics?

Um, maybe because the Rat Shack meter is not at all accurate, particularly at lower frequencies? And you aren't able to make adjustments in the time domain, nor adjust hundreds of points like Audyssey.
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post #3063 of 73216 Old 04-08-2008, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

Um, maybe because the Rat Shack meter is not at all accurate, particularly at lower frequencies? And you aren't able to make adjustments in the time domain, nor adjust hundreds of points like Audyssey.

Do you really buy that? " And you aren't able to make adjustments in the time domain, nor adjust hundreds of points like "

Some posting on this thread stated that when they used the meter it was more accurate as far as speaker distance and actual calibrations of the speakers, don't get me wrong on a fly Audyssey is fine. Had A Yamaha receiver and its readings would show you the size of room and just about everything that it calibrated the Audyssey, just shows footage and Db, no explanation on the size of room or if it is accousticly sound, etc. Just my opinion and findings only of course.

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post #3064 of 73216 Old 04-08-2008, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Jim is right, most of the time the distance reported is farther than the physical distance. That's because of the additional delay in lowpass filters and DSP in the sub. A shorter distance is unusual...Unless it's reported as 0.1 ft. which indicates a known firmware corruption that seems to happen when data loss occurs during an internet update. What type of subwoofer do you have?

Chris

Hi Chris,

The sub is a B&W ASW608, which is part of the B&W 685 home theater set.

I also found this result curious, particularly as Audyssey had measured all of the other distances much more accurately. Specifically, the sub is measured at 1.71m when the actual distance is about 2.90m. I had the volume knob on the sub at 9 o'clock and the LPF defeated when calibrating, as the manual suggested.

Thanks in advance for your assistance!

Cheers,
Michael
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post #3065 of 73216 Old 04-08-2008, 11:27 PM
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I know that Audyssey can do stuff I can't with a meter, but after I ran it my system sounded like way crap. Setting it to flat and doing the distances and levels manually got the sound back to at least what my old AVR sounded like. Clearly Denon's documentation is broken - how do I figure out what I did wrong?

And where can one find a boom arm for a tripod?
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post #3066 of 73216 Old 04-08-2008, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper View Post

Do you really buy that? " And you aren't able to make adjustments in the time domain, nor adjust hundreds of points like "

Some posting on this thread stated that when they used the meter it was more accurate as far as speaker distance and actual calibrations of the speakers, don't get me wrong on a fly Audyssey is fine. Had A Yamaha receiver and its readings would show you the size of room and just about everything that it calibrated the Audyssey, just shows footage and Db, no explanation on the size of room or if it is accousticly sound, etc. Just my opinion and findings only of course.

Man, you really need to hear an Audyssey Pro calibrated system before you comment any further. Audyssey helps a lot where SPL meters or RTA's just can't.

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post #3067 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

I don't understand Bruce's question. The Audyssey processor have seperate sw outputs and have outputs that can be "before" and "after" Audyssey corrections?

Bruce might have the Audyssey SEQ, which has I think 4 sub (high-res) channels, or he might have the Denon 5308, which I think has 2 sub channels. The question was whether to EQ those channels individually, or to connect multiple subs to the same channel and EQ them all together.
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post #3068 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Sort-of... it's a setting you can apply, to route the bass from the front channels into the subwoofer when the front channels are set to outout "full band", or as the term most recognize, "large". So then you would have the lower tone from the front speakers playing through both the front speakers AND through the sub.

There's one additional wrinkle - the signal from the fronts is routed through a low-pass filter with the corner frequency set to the value MultEQ found as the -3dB point of the fronts on its way to the sub, so although the signal is being fed to both the fronts and the sub, the fronts are going away while the sub is coming in. For the Onkyo, that corner freq is always the one MultEQ found, and for the Denon LFE+Mains, the corner freq is user-adjustable.
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post #3069 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 01:09 AM
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Ok, so ever since I ran the "auto setup" something has really been bugging me.



Right after I first ran the setup everything sounded REALLY wrong. Harsh, metallic, and very artificial. Setting the RoomEQ to Audyssey flat helped with that. Also it got some of the speaker distances really wrong, like the center channel. (Which sounded way bad.) I fixed those - it'd be great if I could manually set the speaker levels and distances (cuz I know I can get that right) and let Audyssey just worry about the Room EQ.

However, even after fixing the levels, setting the distances, and setting the Room EQ to flat something was still bugging me, especially when playing COD4. Positional audio is key in that game. You need to know where the bullets are coming from so you know where to send yours to. And I was noticing that the sound coming out of my left surround speaker was sounding "odd". Tinny, kinda.

I decided to try turning Room EQ completely off. But went to turn it off and found that I could look at the curves. All 5 speakers are the same - NHT SuperOnes. And all of the curves looked the same, EXCEPT for that left surround. I turned Audssey off so that it wouldn't bug me.

Now clearly I did something wrong when I ran the EQ. I did two spots - where I sit and where my friend sits. Where my friend sits is almost 90 degrees off-axis from the front of that speaker. (My room is kinda lacking for good spots to sit. But mostly I just care about where my throne, I mean recliner, is.)

I don't have a good way to get the mic to the right spots without moving furniture - what do other people do? The Audyssey Pro stuff shows a boom mic stand thingie - but finding something like that for the included mic (i.e. something with a tripod mount on the end) seems to be a challenge.

So how do I do this right? Everyone talks about how great Audyssey is, but my first run didn't go that well. I really want to make sure I'm getting the most out of my Denon 3808.
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post #3070 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

Ok, so ever since I ran the "auto setup" something has really been bugging me.



Right after I first ran the setup everything sounded REALLY wrong. Harsh, metallic, and very artificial. Setting the RoomEQ to Audyssey flat helped with that. Also it got some of the speaker distances really wrong, like the center channel. (Which sounded way bad.) I fixed those - it'd be great if I could manually set the speaker levels and distances (cuz I know I can get that right) and let Audyssey just worry about the Room EQ.

However, even after fixing the levels, setting the distances, and setting the Room EQ to flat something was still bugging me, especially when playing COD4. Positional audio is key in that game. You need to know where the bullets are coming from so you know where to send yours to. And I was noticing that the sound coming out of my left surround speaker was sounding "odd". Tinny, kinda.

I decided to try turning Room EQ completely off. But went to turn it off and found that I could look at the curves. All 5 speakers are the same - NHT SuperOnes. And all of the curves looked the same, EXCEPT for that left surround. I turned Audssey off so that it wouldn't bug me.

Now clearly I did something wrong when I ran the EQ. I did two spots - where I sit and where my friend sits. Where my friend sits is almost 90 degrees off-axis from the front of that speaker. (My room is kinda lacking for good spots to sit. But mostly I just care about where my throne, I mean recliner, is.)

I don't have a good way to get the mic to the right spots without moving furniture - what do other people do? The Audyssey Pro stuff shows a boom mic stand thingie - but finding something like that for the included mic (i.e. something with a tripod mount on the end) seems to be a challenge.

So how do I do this right? Everyone talks about how great Audyssey is, but my first run didn't go that well. I really want to make sure I'm getting the most out of my Denon 3808.

There are mic holders avilable, which have an adjustable clamp like attachment to use it as an universal holder for microphones. Attach a tripod screw extender or adapter to the mic and you can use it. Afix it to the boom stand and adjust it to Your liking (perpendicular to the axes of the tweeters) at around ear height.
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post #3071 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

There are mic holders avilable, which have an adjustable clamp like attachment to use it as an universal holder for microphones. Attach a tripod screw extender or adapter to the mic and you can use it. Afix it to the boom stand and adjust it to Your liking (perpendicular to the axes of the tweeters) at around ear height.

I guess that would work - but that seems like an awful lot for a setup I should only run once. Maybe I should look to see if I can borrow one...
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post #3072 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

Right after I first ran the setup everything sounded REALLY wrong. Harsh, metallic, and very artificial. Setting the RoomEQ to Audyssey flat helped with that. Also it got some of the speaker distances really wrong, like the center channel. (Which sounded way bad.) I fixed those - it'd be great if I could manually set the speaker levels and distances (cuz I know I can get that right) and let Audyssey just worry about the Room EQ.

Here's one thing we've found - if MultEQ doesn't get the right distances (except for the sub), then your prime measurement is compromised. Something needs to be changed: mic position, how you're supporting the mic, ambient noise level, etc. If you don't fix the problem, you are unlikely to get good results.
Quote:


However, even after fixing the levels, setting the distances, and setting the Room EQ to flat something was still bugging me, especially when playing COD4. Positional audio is key in that game. You need to know where the bullets are coming from so you know where to send yours to. And I was noticing that the sound coming out of my left surround speaker was sounding "odd". Tinny, kinda.

I decided to try turning Room EQ completely off. But went to turn it off and found that I could look at the curves. All 5 speakers are the same - NHT SuperOnes. And all of the curves looked the same, EXCEPT for that left surround. I turned Audssey off so that it wouldn't bug me.

Now clearly I did something wrong when I ran the EQ. I did two spots - where I sit and where my friend sits. Where my friend sits is almost 90 degrees off-axis from the front of that speaker. (My room is kinda lacking for good spots to sit. But mostly I just care about where my throne, I mean recliner, is.)

Well, if you've read this thread, you know what to do - do all 8 positions around your throne about 2-3 feet, maybe extend a little extra toward your second position, but keep things within the spread of your speakers, not too close to walls, mic aimed up using tripod or mic boom.
Quote:


I don't have a good way to get the mic to the right spots without moving furniture - what do other people do? The Audyssey Pro stuff shows a boom mic stand thingie - but finding something like that for the included mic (i.e. something with a tripod mount on the end) seems to be a challenge.

So how do I do this right? Everyone talks about how great Audyssey is, but my first run didn't go that well. I really want to make sure I'm getting the most out of my Denon 3808.

Before I had a mic boom, I just used the tripod with one leg on the furniture and two off to get some mic positions.
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post #3073 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

I know that Audyssey can do stuff I can't with a meter, but after I ran it my system sounded like way crap. Setting it to flat and doing the distances and levels manually got the sound back to at least what my old AVR sounded like. Clearly Denon's documentation is broken - how do I figure out what I did wrong?

Yes, the docs are "broken". Or more accurately they are over simplified. When you do the calibration right Audyssey does a wonderful job of correcting both for room conditions and speaker accuracy.

The primary difference between using a measuring tape and an SPL meter is that they give you static data which you type in like a chimp, with typically no real understanding of the effects of those figures. It works up to a point.

When you use a mic and a number of locations to measure a dynamic response (using the frequency sweeps) like Audyssey and others do, the software in the receiver uses those response to evaluate both the room and speaker characteristics over a frequency domain (via the sweep) and a time domain (knowing how long the sounds take to get to the mic).

Think about the difference of tuning a car using your ear vs. a dedicated analysis tool.

The problem with the Audyssey calibration that Denon fail to mention - and probably other makers too - is that it is very sensitive to other sounds in the house. I get the best results when I turn *everything* off except the amp - no plasma, no PVR HDD whiring, no central heating noises, no washing machine or dishwasher in a kitchen 20ft away etc. Seriously too - if you are in the room stay out of line of the mic to speakers *and* try to hold your breath during the frequency sweeps. Really. Oh, my cat is also banished to the other room at the time. One other things is if you get aircraft flying overhead wait until a quiet time or if they do while you are doing one position then redo that one again afterwards.

Following these I tend to get better results.

Quote:


And where can one find a boom arm for a tripod?

You local pro photo shop ?
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post #3074 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 03:13 AM
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After running MultEq a million of times, never finding the perfect sound, even though it is way better then Eq off, I am beginning to think that my speakers position is the culpright.

Particularly the back surround are definetely too close to the listening position.
I tryed to put hem toward the ceiling and I got some improvement, but nothing really good.
I wonder what else I could try as far as orientation is involved.
The problem is that they are too present, i.e they do not contribute to the envelopping sound. They just sound and you definetly notice them when they shoot.
About the same is for the Surrond speaker but in a much lower manner.
The center and front speakers are instead perfectly melted and you really can not tell from which speaker the sound is coming from.

The speakers are in a ellipsed area like this.

____________L____C_____R_____________________
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
_______________P___P___P__________________SR_
_____________________________________________
______SL________P______P____________________
wall wall wall __________________________________
wall wall wall_BL___LISTENING___BR_______________
wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall

To be noticed that I do not have a subwoofer.

The one I was using was the sub of two satellites and I put it back to his childrens that are the Back surround. It is below a coffea table over which the BL is positioned.

The last time I run MultEQ, I used 3-2-3 config. 3 were over the word LISTENING equally spaced with the 1st position centered between the two Back Surround and the others are the P.

What about if I do a new MultEQ run with these P plus ONE (main) on the LISTENING so trying to follow the pattern of the speakers?

____________L____C_____R_____________________
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
____________P_____P______P___________________
_____________________________________________
__________P____________________P__________SR_
_____________________________________________
______SL____P_________________P______________
wall wall wall __________________________________
wall wall wall_BL___LISTENING___BR_______________
wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall

What to do first? Try a different orientation or the different Positions?
Ciao
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post #3075 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

I guess that would work - but that seems like an awful lot for a setup I should only run once. Maybe I should look to see if I can borrow one...

You could use just a plain tripod for it.
The main problem is, that it's usually is not so easy to get that one to the exact position, where Your mic should be...

That's much easier with a microphone boom, which can be extended sideways.
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post #3076 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Galbavy View Post

One other things is if you get aircraft flying overhead wait until a quiet time or if they do while you are doing one position then redo that one again afterwards.

How can you do that? I live close to an airport.........
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post #3077 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

I don't have a good way to get the mic to the right spots without moving furniture - what do other people do? The Audyssey Pro stuff shows a boom mic stand thingie - but finding something like that for the included mic (i.e. something with a tripod mount on the end) seems to be a challenge.

You can make a simple holder out of some PVC pipe and a 1/4-20 bolt and nut, like the pictures from this post if you have a mic boom with a mic clip (which you can find at Radio Shack).
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post #3078 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtsag View Post

After running Audyssey, my subwoofer's distance is incorrectly reported as being about 1 meter less than it actually is. Should I leave it as Audyssey found it, or should I set the correct distance manually?

Thanks!




My problem when calibrating is my living room is at the front of my house. I can hear ambient noise of the cars passing by which I never mentioned to Chris. The only strange thing is when I had an Onkyo SR-805, it set the sub at a farther distance everytime, which is more correct than a closer distance. I may run Audyssey late at night, that should do the trick. Only one time my sub had the right distance. Every other time it comes up short. This thread along with Chris has helped me get some great sound though.

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post #3079 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post

And where can one find a boom arm for a tripod?

My tripod's adjustable center column can be taken out and mounted on the tripod top at 90 degrees making a boom arm quite adequate for the Audyssey mike.

It's a Bogen/Manfrotto. Got it from B&H Photo.

Ken
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post #3080 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Galbavy View Post

[...]
The problem with the Audyssey calibration that Denon fail to mention - and probably other makers too - is that it is very sensitive to other sounds in the house. I get the best results when I turn *everything* off except the amp - no plasma, no PVR HDD whiring, no central heating noises, no washing machine or dishwasher in a kitchen 20ft away etc. Seriously too - if you are in the room stay out of line of the mic to speakers *and* try to hold your breath during the frequency sweeps. Really. Oh, my cat is also banished to the other room at the time. One other things is if you get aircraft flying overhead wait until a quiet time or if they do while you are doing one position then redo that one again afterwards.[...]

I agree that ambient noise should be reduced to as little as possible. I turned off dishwashers, washing machine, chased the dogs outside (try to keep 4 dogs out of your living room and stop them from barking during 8 measurements, go ahead!), computers (including laptop), but I did leave the plasma and DVR on since they were 14 feet from the LP. I stayed off to the side too so I wouldn't be in any 'line of sound' from the speakers as they were tested. As Chris has also said previously, place the mic away from reflective surfaces such as seat backs (never put the mic on any part of the seat).

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post #3081 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 07:02 AM
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Installed Audyssey Pro in my Onkyo 885 Yesterday. I didn't do it in the "best" of conditions (I'll be redoing it soon when conditions are "optimal"...no wife, kids, phone calls, etc for hours on end). Anyway, the results were excellent. Much, much better than MultEQ XT...and again, this was in "less" than optimal conditions. I did MultEQ several times when I owned a Denon 4306, and was pleased with the results after several runs (like 6 to 7) and the last three were in the best of conditions. Pro killed 6 or 7 runs of XT in one shot. This should of course be obvious since you are using a much, much better mic along with numerous mapping points in the lower frequencies and the ability to choose the room curve which best fits your room. Just thought I would offer this up for those who were sitting on the fence.

Quote:


Audyssey helps a lot where SPL meters or RTA's just can't.

Don't be too quick to make that judgement. I still run a RTA before and after running Audyssey to see what it did do and what problems are still present. RTA's are very revealing if used properly and if understood. Combine that with an ETG, and you have the tools you need to calibrate a system conventionally. Audyssey just takes some of the work out of the convention. IMHO, from my limited experience, Audyssey is a great tool, but I would not implicitly trust it.

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post #3082 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 08:45 AM
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Concerning tripods and other ways to set the mic. I just sit a tall and narrow cardboard box on the seats to bring the mic over the the top of the chair's back to tweeter height. I use a book under it to level and steady the box. In front of the seating position I do the same thing but on top of a foot stool.
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post #3083 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

There's one additional wrinkle - the signal from the fronts is routed through a low-pass filter with the corner frequency set to the value MultEQ found as the -3dB point of the fronts on its way to the sub, so although the signal is being fed to both the fronts and the sub, the fronts are going away while the sub is coming in. For the Onkyo, that corner freq is always the one MultEQ found, and for the Denon LFE+Mains, the corner freq is user-adjustable.

1. for fronts that are found as full the Onkyo lets you set the crossover point- I have done that with my ML Vantage (40hz) to good effect.

2. The 885P lets you double the base of the cross over region to both the main and the sub if you wish.

Joel
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post #3084 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

1. for fronts that are found as full the Onkyo lets you set the crossover point- I have done that with my ML Vantage (40hz) to good effect.

2. The 885P lets you double the base of the cross over region to both the main and the sub if you wish.

Joel

No, I was already talking about Double Bass. In Double Bass, your fronts run full range, and the bass from them is additionally routed to the sub through a low-pass filter as I described.
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post #3085 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

Installed Audyssey Pro in my Onkyo 885 Yesterday. I didn't do it in the "best" of conditions (I'll be redoing it soon when conditions are "optimal"...no wife, kids, phone calls, etc for hours on end). Anyway, the results were excellent. Much, much better than MultEQ XT...and again, this was in "less" than optimal conditions. I did MultEQ several times when I owned a Denon 4306, and was pleased with the results after several runs (like 6 to 7) and the last three were in the best of conditions. Pro killed 6 or 7 runs of XT in one shot. This should of course be obvious since you are using a much, much better mic along with numerous mapping points in the lower frequencies and the ability to choose the room curve which best fits your room. Just thought I would offer this up for those who were sitting on the fence.

Agreed, SMB. While I don't notice much, if any, difference in the upper frequencies, as I ended up selecting the rolloff and Midrange Compensation curve that I believe MultEQ XT comes with by default, the mid and low bass is *much* improved.

Having said that, there is still work to be done on my room. I need treatments on the ceiling and rear wall... so I look forward to continued tweaking!

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post #3086 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pierrebnh View Post

(try to keep 4 dogs out of your living room and stop them from barking during 8 measurements, go ahead!) ... but I did leave the plasma and DVR

I agree on the dogs, one cat is bad enough...

But, WRT the plasma and DVR - it's not how far from the mic that they are but from any of the speakers being measured. I got different results with the plasma on and off... I cannot normally hear it from where I sit with anything else on even at low volume, but it is there at the high end.
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post #3087 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Chris, thank you for the reply. I just want to say that the support you provide in this forum is truly amazing. I notice the times and the days you are on here. Amazing.

I apologize if my question wasn't clear enough. I was not asking how to run Audyssey with speakers having these boundary compensation switches. I was asking if there is any advantage or reason to buy speakers with boundary and/or treble +- 3dB switches. There are a lot more speakers without these switches, many of which I would prefer to have ... as long as the "adjustments" needed to correct boundary effects (or room brightness in the case of the treble switch) can be done by Audyssey.

My problem is near total ignorance of exactly what Audyssey does. I mean does it detect the abnormally loud woofer response of each individual speaker with a boundary boost and adjust each individual speaker appropriately? The switch on the speakers that have this switch would either be 0dB or -3dB for the woofer (and all of it's associated frequencies). Would Audyssey apply a more precise decrease than the "take it or leave it: -3dB", i.e., some fraction of -3dB or perhaps even more than -3dB? And does Audyssey apply it's correction to just the frequencies that need it, as opposed to the whole spectrum of frequencies coming from the woofer?

anybody?

does Audyssey do what these switches do and thereby make this capability in speakers redundant/unnecessary?
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post #3088 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

anybody?

does Audyssey do what these switches do and thereby make this capability in speakers redundant/unnecessary?

No, Audyssey does not do what the boundary correction switches do, which is add a fixed amount of boost or cut to a specific freq range. At the risk of sounding too fanatical, MultEQ goes quite a ways toward what you really want, which is to correct the frequency and impulse response of your particular speaker arrangement, room, and seating location.
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post #3089 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 10:07 AM
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Taking Friday afternoon off from work so I can do the Pro Cal on my 3808...kid will be at daycare and the wife at work. That should give me some quiet time to play with. Will post impressions after I get a chance to put it through some demos.
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post #3090 of 73216 Old 04-09-2008, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

anybody?

does Audyssey do what these switches do and thereby make this capability in speakers redundant/unnecessary?

Set the switches to whatever setting is "neutral" and let Audyssey do its thing.
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