"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1103 - AVS Forum
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post #33061 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post
My reading comprehension is fine, thanks. But I am beginning to question that of others.

AGAIN, my Denon 3808 was XT-equipped with the DYN EQ and DYN VOL upgrade purchased, so that alone doesn't explain the trim differences between my 3310 and a 3808. Both with 1.2 V pre-outs and an identical "adj gain-less" ext amplifier.

My though was perhaps the 3310 "just" having MultEq and/or the mic was accounting for the at LEAST 4db differences.

James
I'd guess that the DEQ upgrade imposed reference operation on it, but that'd be one for Chris to answer. But then, across two different installations, two different calibrations and possibly two different sets of content(?), it's possible that there are more variables you are not accounting for.

Jeff


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post #33062 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride525 View Post
Clearly there is a mixture of questions here. Some questions are Audyssey, some speakers. Why not just see if someone will answer them? Any of them.
In my case there is no question at all re loudspeakers. They have remained identical in their identical positions.

The only factor that has changed has been the AVR.

It's important to understand that I comprehend the difference between a DYN EQ/VOL unit and one that is not so equipped. The problem is some are not noting that 3 of my units were equipped with the aforementioned and I am/was receiving very different rsesults in otherwise identical scenarios.

James

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post #33063 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I'd guess that the DEQ upgrade imposed reference operation on it, but that'd be one for Chris to answer. But then, across two different installations, two different calibrations and possibly two different sets of content(?), it's possible that there are more variables you are not accounting for.

Jeff
And I would be all ears as to the understanding/unearthing of those variables. The furniture and furnishings in the room even remained unchanged.

I did paint the front wall from tan to blue though, .

TBH, I'm really not expecting a breakthrough here. I have gone through this over and over so many times that I cannot insert much of a sense of reason behind it at all.

I guess I really am hoping I can't see the forest through the trees.

If we're going to work off the notion that +/- 4db (at least) differences are not audible/significant, that seems to fly in the face of the purpose of sophisticated room correction systems.

James

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post #33064 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad T View Post
Here, here. No need to get bent out of shape. Actually, I believe you were mis-reading what I wrote. Because what I wrote confirms everything you posted.

In other words, I get the same levels with the 805 at -5 as I do with the 3008 at 0. So when I set the 805 to -5, I am actually listening to reference level (at least that's what I gather from what audyssey wrote).
I didn't think that there were any combinations of smileys that would let me get away with that, but I posted it anyway. (I'll remove the large point size.)

My takeaway from what Chris said is that there is no comparison possible between a non-DEQ-equipped AVR and one with it. The "next guy" might be at +3dB. But your supposition seems logical.

Jeff


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post #33065 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Did I make a big mistake by doing this? I remember the earlier kits using a fatter mic(looks just like my behringer ECM8000 that I've used with REW) with a different mic holder.Was that a factor in switching to the current mic and holder set-up?
If the mic tip was as far as possible from the holder then you're fine. These chubby holders can cause reflections at very high frequencies if the mic tip is very close to it.

Chris

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post #33066 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Now, while I know 45 off center is ideal, will the 30 deg and 3 feet above the mains work out decently for a spell? Again, it's just not practical to wall mount, use in walls , or construct 6' stands at this point.

Hi James,
Not really... There needs to be more separation vertically in order to get the real benefit of the DSX Heights.

Chris

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post #33067 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 10:24 AM
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thanks Chris, good to know.

Nother quick one...I have rather low ceilings (just a touch over 7').

So with this 13" tall direct-radiating monitor (tweeter about 10" up the cabinet) if the 45 degree position to place the speakers finds the tweeter about 4" from the ceiling will that be an issue (reflection/sonic-wise)?

It's (the tweeter) an aluminum-dome if that helps.

here, actually: http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...oMonitor%20450

EDIT: after reading a bit on the Aud site, it seems it shouldn't be an issue...I may even incoporate a "wedge" on the top-rear of my stands to better angle the spkr down unto the listening area.

thanks,
James

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post #33068 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

EDIT: after reading a bit on the Aud site, it seems it shouldn't be an issue...I may even incoporate a "wedge" on the top-rear of my stands to better angle the spkr down unto the listening area.

Correct. Not an issue. Pointing down is key.

Chris

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post #33069 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Good point...I plan on doing just that this week.

James

If you have the RadioShack SPL meter, for the most accurate readings and the best response,
you should point the meter's microphone toward the sound source and not towards the ceiling.
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post #33070 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Not Chris.

The Pro mic holder provides some isolation from the rubber suspension. Did you not get a mic stand and holder with your kit?

Jeff


I have the complete kit.I just found using the "goose-neck" holder to be more time consuming to re-adjust and staighten from one measurement positon to another.I found the clip style one to be easier to keep the mic positioned for my arrangement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

If the mic tip was as far as possible from the holder then you're fine. These chubby holders can cause reflections at very high frequencies if the mic tip is very close to it.

The bottom of the mic was even with the bottom of the holder,so the tip was as far away as I could get it,otherwise the clip won't hold the mic properly.

I just assumed that mic holders were designed to be unobtrusive as possible,never thought about vibration transfer or reflections being a problem with them.
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post #33071 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 01:38 PM
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Hi Chris,

Thank you again for the Holman Paper, an interesting material indeed. What caught my attention was the findings between U.S. homes and European homes, especially regarding their reverberation time in view of construction materials. If I understood correctly the use of more rigid materials in Europe will lead to longer reverberation times in a similar sized dwelling than in the U.S.

Now, previously I used an online calculator ( http://www.sae.edu/reference_materia...Calculator.htm ) to see roughly how my Eurpoean room performs in this department.

After choosing the appropriate items in the pull-down menus here are the calculator's findings:

125 Hz: 0.81 sec
250 Hz: 0.85 sec
500 Hz: 0.54 sec
1000 Hz: 0.48 sec
2000 Hz: 0.43 sec
4000 Hz: 0.42 sec


I know these are just approximations made out by an online calculator, but, hey, IMHO they are pretty close to Tom's findings in general, aren't they?

FYR, materials used in my living room are: (as seen from the MLP)

Left: glass doors with curtains

Right: door + rough textured wallpaper

Front: rough textured wallpaper + wooden shelves

Rear : wall to wall cabinet with large sliding doors made of MDF panels + some mirrors in the middle (ouch!)

Floor: parquet covered with carpet (wool)

Ceiling: painted


Building materials:


- brick walls covered with plaster and wallpaper.
- the floor covering is parquet finish glued onto a leveling layer of OSB (oriented standard board) panels, now a new trend instead of cement mortar. (Renovated in 2008.)


Room dimensions:



Length: 13 feet/ 4 meters
Width: 12 feet/ 3.7 meters
Height: 10 feet/ 3.1 meters

Now, my simple question, if I may: does MultEQ (or XT or XT32) take care of extented European reverberation times with a reasonable result? Or in another approach, what is the longest reverberation time Audyssey is capable to handle successufully?


Should it be interesting I have some photos of my room here:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1193473

Thanks in advance for your kind reply Chris.

P.S. Should your team of experts need more on-site surveys of European dwellings, it goes without saying, that they are more than welcome to pop-in to Budapest any time.

Cheers, Feri


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post #33072 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 02:36 PM
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Feri,

reverberation time in acoustically small rooms is irrelevant (see Toole). This should be common knowledge by now. Psychoacoustically more important is the listening room's reflection pattern (number of reflections, delay, angle, spectrum, level) which is dominated by speaker placement and directivity, room dimensions and furniture. Unfortunately Holman raises more questions in his paper than he answers (see "7. FURTHER WORK").

Best, Markus

Markus

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post #33073 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 02:46 PM
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I considered the pre amp output voltage of the AVRs, but all 4 units seem to be right ~ 1.2 Vs.

I would compare these opuputs with a scope. 1.2 volts AC is 1.2 volts and the external will produce the same level. I would guess what you are measuring is
not all signal.
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post #33074 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

..
reverberation time in acoustically small rooms is irrelevant (see Toole).

Hi Markus,
It's a bit harsh to call RT irrelevant. Maybe not for frequency response, but certainly relevant for dialog intelligibility, right?

Chris

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post #33075 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


P.S. Should your team of experts need more on-site surveys of European dwellings, it goes without saying, that they are more than welcome to pop-in to Budapest any time.

Hi Feri,
Yes, the impulse responses that MultEQ measures can certainly handle the slightly longer reverberation times. The algorithm itself is scalable to the available memory. So, even giant churches could be measured using the same math if there was enough on-board memory to store the responses. Hint: you can't use an AVR to equalize that kind of space.
I've never been to Budapest, but if I do you will be the first person I call.

Chris

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post #33076 of 72388 Old 11-22-2010, 04:46 PM
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I remember when you used to create reverb (verb verb) and it was certainly something you wanted to have the ability to turn off.

Gary J
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post #33077 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Markus,
It's a bit harsh to call RT irrelevant. Maybe not for frequency response, but certainly relevant for dialog intelligibility, right?

Hi Chris,

when looking at small room acoustics, RT says nothing about how good a system/room sounds. Furthermore, all the studies I know - including Holman's new paper - show that the reverberation time in furnished domestic listening rooms is already low. Swapping out a couch for a different one can have a huge impact on RT. The same is true for speaker directivity and speaker placement because the sound field is highly directional (which renders RT meaningless by definition).

RT is not wrong as a measurement, it just doesn't give us the information we're interested in, e.g. modal ringing.

We're seriously lacking meaningful measurements. Holman rightfully asks, "How do we data reduce waterfall displays to something meaningful, both psychoacoustically and across rooms?
What is the role of directivity and its change with frequency when factoring early reflections and reverberation? What is its proper role in mono, twochannel stereo, and multichannel reproduction?"

The answer is, "We don't know".

Best, Markus

Markus

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post #33078 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Hi Chris,

when looking at small room acoustics, RT says nothing about how good a system/room sounds.

Hi Markus,
I agree with your observations. But, I think that if a home theater room measured at 2 seconds RT it would have some serious dialog intelligibility problems. In that sense, RT does tell us (something) about how it sounds. So, yes, for modal ringing it's not a good measure. But, it doesn't mean that we should not pay attention to it when designing a room.

Chris

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post #33079 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Markus,
I agree with your observations. But, I think that if a home theater room measured at 2 seconds RT it would have some serious dialog intelligibility problems. In that sense, RT does tell us (something) about how it sounds. So, yes, for modal ringing it's not a good measure. But, it doesn't mean that we should not pay attention to it when designing a room.

Chris,
By your mention of said 2 sec RT as clearly problematic, is there a recommended RT threshold to target below of?
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post #33080 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Markus,
I agree with your observations. But, I think that if a home theater room measured at 2 seconds RT it would have some serious dialog intelligibility problems. In that sense, RT does tell us (something) about how it sounds. So, yes, for modal ringing it's not a good measure. But, it doesn't mean that we should not pay attention to it when designing a room.

"[...] excessive reflected sound is undesirable, and an RT measurement can tell us that we are in the ballpark, but for that matter, so can our ears or an acoustically aware visual inspection." (Toole "Sound reproduction")

Markus

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post #33081 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 08:04 AM
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Is there any chance of an 11 amplified channel receiver product on the horizon with the full 11.2ch DSX setup?
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post #33082 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Chris,
By your mention of said 2 sec RT as clearly problematic, is there a recommended RT threshold to target below of?

There is a recommendation by the European Broadcast Union (EBU) that is widely used. The RT depends on the volume of the room and is given by:

RT = 0.25*(V/100)^(1/3) where V: room volume in cubic meters.

Hard to do equations in text... ^(1/3) means cube root. Also note that RT is frequency dependent. When a single number is mentioned, it usually refers to the RT value at 500 Hz.

Chris

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post #33083 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 08:21 AM
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... the formula assumes that the sound field is "homogeneous (the same everywhere in the space) and isotropic (with sound energy arriving at every point equally from all directions)". This is (sufficiently) true for large rooms like concert halls but it's NOT true for domestic listening spaces like living rooms or home theaters.

Markus

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post #33084 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

... the formula assumes that the sound field is "homogeneous (the same everywhere in the space) and isotropic (with sound energy arriving at every point equally from all directions)". This is (sufficiently) true for large rooms like concert halls but it's NOT true for domestic listening spaces like living rooms or home theaters.

Nonetheless it is the EBU recommendation for mixing rooms.

Chris

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post #33085 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Nonetheless it is the EBU recommendation for mixing rooms.

And that recommend value is? And would this be suitable 'ballpark target' for a home theater?

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post #33086 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Nonetheless it is the EBU recommendation for mixing rooms.

Holman: "It is not known how EBU came up with their recommendation."

Don't get me wrong, standardization IS the key to better sound reproduction but where is EBU's 0.24 s coming from?

Markus

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post #33087 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post

And that recommend value is? And would this be suitable 'ballpark target' for a home theater?

It depends on your room volume. Please see the formula I posted above. Make sure you plug in your room volume in cubic meters.

Chris

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post #33088 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

It depends on your room volume. Please see the formula I posted above. Make sure you plug in your room volume in cubic meters.

Room (ft): 21x16x8= 2 688 cubic foot = 76.115 683 639 cubic meter...

Inserting this data into the formula gives a RT of 0.228

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post #33089 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post

Room (ft): 21x16x8= 2 688 cubic foot = 76.115 683 639 cubic meter...

Inserting this data into the formula gives a RT of 0.228

Which is quite low (lower than what is found in most home listening rooms) and hence the discussion. How did the EBU come up with this? BTW, they're not the only ones. ITU has very similar recommendations.

Chris

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post #33090 of 72388 Old 11-23-2010, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post

Room (ft): 21x16x8= 2 688 cubic foot = 76.115 683 639 cubic meter...

Inserting this data into the formula gives a RT of 0.228

That looks pretty close to the EBU's 0.24 recommendation, doesn't it.

Cheers,
SB
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