"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1140 - AVS Forum
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post #34171 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghstudio View Post

First thing i noticed was that pro tuning on the 4311 did zero tuning of my sub!!!

Forgot to mention this. Thrang just sent me his Pro graphs on the 4311 and the sub is calibrated as expected.

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post #34172 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 02:59 PM
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Presumably one polarity of subwoofer connection gives a better blend at XO than the other.

Is there a way to divine this with Pro?

It just shows separate sub and satellite responses, so how is one to know?

Or does the polarity error message work for subs?

Noah
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post #34173 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Presumably one polarity of subwoofer connection gives a better blend at XO than the other.

Not really...

Quote:


Is there a way to divine this with Pro?

It just shows separate sub and satellite responses, so how is one to know?

Or does the polarity error message work for subs?

Yes, it does check for sub polarity. But, the polarity is not really useful for blending. What's really needed is varying the phase as a function of frequency (also known as group delay). Pro performs this calculation internally and checks the flatness of the resulting blend based on the measurements it took from the subs and sats. Then it reports a list of choices for the xover frequency starting from the best one.

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post #34174 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 03:20 PM
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Does this happen with XT32 implementations without Pro?
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post #34175 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 03:25 PM
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I might be able to test using the amps in the 4311 (if my speaker cables will reach)....but I don't hear the harshness when I use the sound equalizer thru the same amp, so I'm not quite sure what that will prove. Doesn't mean i won't do it....it's just unlikely to be the problem (NHT Power 5).

Let me step thru this calmly on Monday. Something is wrong..probably me but I'm pretty experienced isolating problems.

One thing I am going to do is get the sound equalizer out of the path. We now know that both the sound equalizer and 4311 see the same before curves in the pro software (I have them saved) and that was important to see.

I have not run the 4311 with the pro equalization because of the sub curve which likely means I did something wrong so listening would probably have no value.

If my other measurements are correct (forgetting for a moment about the sub), then it's really looking like something is happening as Denon applies the Audyssey corrections.

I'll go thru it methodically on Monday.....and send whatever I can capture.

One other thought is that the NHT 2.9's are known for their directionality. I may be setting the microphone too wide from the sweet spot, because I sit almost directly in front of the left front....so I use that as postion 2. I'll try setting the 4311 taking all readings within the sweet spot and see if that changes things. However, I am using the exact same measurement points for all my testing so far...and I don't hear the harshness when use the sound equalizer...only when I use the 4311's XT32 so this is an unlikely path.

Have a happy new year's eve and don't drive tonight....

I haven't really tried audyssey dynamic eq at all yet.
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post #34176 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

Does this happen with XT32 implementations without Pro?

Sadly no..It requires significant computing horsepower to do that calculation so it has to be done on the PC.

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post #34177 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

What's really needed is varying the phase as a function of frequency (also known as group delay). Pro performs this calculation internally and checks the flatness of the resulting blend based on the measurements it took from the subs and sats.

So Pro has full control over relative phase of subs and sats - great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Sadly no..It requires significant computing horsepower to do that calculation so it has to be done on the PC.

Just to make sure I understand, the sub polarity would matter then, right?

Except for the rare case where they were 90 deg out of phase at XO, in which case a +/-180 change wouldn't matter.

Noah
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post #34178 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post


Sadly no..It requires significant computing horsepower to do that calculation so it has to be done on the PC.

So what does the sub EQ that is part of the standard XT32 with my 80.2 do with respect to phasing for the two sub woofers in my system?
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post #34179 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 07:43 PM
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i apologise in advance if this question has already been asked.
I have been a fan of Audyssey, since the the denon 4306. I currently own the denon 4308 and am anxiously awaiting delivery of the new denon avr-a100 with audyssey multeq xt 32. My question is after audyssey does it's thing can i still go back and manually change crossovers and speaker size like i did in the 4308, and is there anything else i need to know regarding audyssey.

thank you very much for your help.
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post #34180 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 07:48 PM
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oops almost forgot.

HAPPY NEW YEAR. Mr. Audyssey and evryone on this forum.
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post #34181 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHUELIPH View Post

i apologise in advance if this question has already been asked.
I have been a fan of Audyssey, since the the denon 4306. I currently own the denon 4308 and am anxiously awaiting delivery of the new denon avr-a100 with audyssey multeq xt 32. My question is after audyssey does it's thing can i still go back and manually change crossovers and speaker size like i did in the 4308, and is there anything else i need to know regarding audyssey.

thank you very much for your help.

Yes you can. It will act the same as your previous Denon in that regard.

There is a TON of stuff you can always learn about Audyssey by reading this thread and the great FAQ/Setup Guide on the first page of this thread.

Make sure you only "raise" your crossovers if you choose to do so, however, and do not lower them as Audyssey does not correct below the measured/recommended crossover setting in your AVR.

Happy New Year to you and everyone else, too!!

--J

Thanks to EVERYONE that Helps Make These Threads so Awesome!

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post #34182 of 71785 Old 12-31-2010, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post


This has been my contention all along. MultEQ is working correctly on the data it's given. If the incoming data has a high frequency roll off then it will adjust accordingly to meet the target. The question we should be focusing on is why it sees a roll off. So far we have seen blown tweeters as one cause. Another cause is measuring too far off axis.

We do have the equipment and we have checked the production unit we were sent (as we do with all products prior to certifying them). There were no issues found.

It does make sense and, yes, that is part of the test.

I hate to bring this up, but can you try without an external amp connected? What if there's something wrong in the amp? Would not be the first time we have seen this...

Dolby Volume and MultEQ XT32 are not comparable. One limits the dynamic range for late night listening and the other performs acoustical correction. Not even apples and oranges as they are both fruit. More like apples and cows.

I intend to do some REW sweeps again, but in my case I know for sure I am flat until at least 10 KHz in my room. So I can't understand why any boost would be necessary in that FR range. I would think negative trims instead.
I'm hoping this is user error on my part. I can't say I'm an expert with REW either, so that is a wild card too . I think I have a handle on it, but who knows? I will post graphs if I can find the time and figure out how to do it again.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
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post #34183 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moodyman View Post

The only remedy for room nulls, that I know of, is to change subwoofer placement, use multiple subs, or you might be able to play with the phase adjustment on the subs. The goal here is to move the room null somewhere else other than the listening position.

You could also change the listening location and/or use acoustic treatments but those would be bulky.
By the way, a "room null" can't be moved. A room's modal pattern distibution is fixed because it is a property of the room, not the source.

Markus

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post #34184 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 08:02 AM
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I posted this on the Onkyo thread but it was suggested that I might get a better response here.

OK, everythings out of the box, network is fine, firmware is updated with no problem. I've tried to run Audyssey several times and it hangs during the calculating phase. All the speakers check out. I've even let it run overnight and it still hangs. I've tried 3 and 6 positions for calibration - same problem. I've tried re-setting the unit and starting over - same problem. My speaker configuration is set for 5.1 although I have front-high's on order. The progress bar is stuck right in the middle during the calculating phase and doesn't move. Faulty unit or am I missing something???? Could it be problems with the Audyssey Mic?? When it says set your sub to 75db, the Mic measures that with no problem. Help!
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post #34185 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1959 View Post

The progress bar is stuck right in the middle during the calculating phase and doesn't move. Faulty unit or am I missing something???? Could it be problems with the Audyssey Mic?? When it says set your sub to 75db, the Mic measures that with no problem. Help!

Sounds like a faulty unit. The mic can't cause the hangup. If it was a mic problem then you would be getting an error during the measurements.

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post #34186 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 08:41 AM
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Hello. I've been reading everyone talk about mic height...I've read that the position of the mic is highly important to the results you get back from Audyssey. My question is what part of the mic should be ear level-the top tip of the mic, the base of the mic, or is the mic sensitive enough to even matter? If I need to place the mic on a stand above my head due to a couch, where should I measure from my ears to what part of the mic for best results? Bob.

Bob
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post #34187 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 09:03 AM
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Hey all, I been reading for hours and I'm still confused.
First off, crossovers settings. In the guide it says it's ok to raise them but not lower them.
Where are these crossovers exactly? In the receiver settings? Aren't the crossovers the same thing as when Audyssey sets the speakers to full band and then everyone says it should be lowered to 60 or 80?
Am I just that dumb or what?

Also can I or should I readjust the Audyssey levels to be the same at all speakers with spl meter? i.e 75db

Should I run Audyssey with or without THX audio mode?
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post #34188 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

So what does the sub EQ that is part of the standard XT32 with my 80.2 do with respect to phasing for the two sub woofers in my system?

Sub EQ HT is independent of MultEQ. It can work with any version of MultEQ including XT32. It is a method for properly blending two subwoofers. Each sub is measured individually and the differences in level and delay between the two subs are corrected. Then the subs are treated as "one" and MultEQ pings them together to create a single filter. We found that this gives better results than creating a filter for each sub separately.

Chris

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post #34189 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSlow View Post

First off, crossovers settings. In the guide it says it's ok to raise them but not lower them.
Where are these crossovers exactly? In the receiver settings?

Yes, they are in the Speaker Settings menu in your AVR

Quote:


Aren't the crossovers the same thing as when Audyssey sets the speakers to full band and then everyone says it should be lowered to 60 or 80?

Audyssey doesn't set speakers to Full Range, the AVR does based on the measurements. Each has their own rules, but most now use 40 Hz as the decision point to set speakers to Full Range. Audyssey strongly recommends against setting any speaker to Full Range if you have a subwoofer in your system. Unfortunately we are not allowed to be in charge of this setting. You have to change speakers to Small by manually setting a crossover after the calibration is finished and stored.

Quote:


Also can I or should I readjust the Audyssey levels to be the same at all speakers with spl meter? i.e 75db

You can make manual adjustments if you want, but Audyssey is already setting the levels for reference.

Quote:


Should I run Audyssey with or without THX audio mode?

When you run the Audyssey calibration all internal AVR settings are ignored.

Chris

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post #34190 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSlow View Post

Aren't the crossovers the same thing as when Audyssey sets the speakers to full band and then everyone says it should be lowered to 60 or 80?

There may be an issue with inverted terminology here. Think of 'large' as 0Hz crossover and 'lowering' as decreasing the numerical value of the crossover point. Going from 'large'/0Hz or 40Hz to 60Hz is raising the crossover and is OK. The other way is not OK.
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post #34191 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post


Sub EQ HT is independent of MultEQ. It can work with any version of MultEQ including XT32. It is a method for properly blending two subwoofers. Each sub is measured individually and the differences in level and delay between the two subs are corrected. Then the subs are treated as "one" and MultEQ pings them together to create a single filter. We found that this gives better results than creating a filter for each sub separately.

Does the tuning the delay mean they are "phased" with thesystem?
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post #34192 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

Does the tuning the delay mean they are "phased" with thesystem?

The delays for all speakers and subs are set so that sound from each arrives at the same time. In the case of two subs, they are individually time delayed to match each other. Then the summed combo is delayed to match the other speakers.

Chris

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post #34193 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneV View Post

There may be an issue with inverted terminology here. Think of 'large' as 0Hz crossover and 'lowering' as decreasing the numerical value of the crossover point. Going from 'large'/0Hz or 40Hz to 60Hz is raising the crossover and is OK. The other way is not OK.

Now I get it!

Thnx all...
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post #34194 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 11:12 AM
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This Chris guy must have the patience of Job!
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post #34195 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 11:25 AM
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jmschur, you probably know this, but the delays for all speakers and subs are set so that sound from each arrives at the same time ... at the first measurement position.

Jeff
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post #34196 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Yes, it does check for sub polarity. But, the polarity is not really useful for blending. What's really needed is varying the phase as a function of frequency (also known as group delay). Pro performs this calculation internally and checks the flatness of the resulting blend based on the measurements it took from the subs and sats. Then it reports a list of choices for the xover frequency starting from the best one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

Does this happen with XT32 implementations without Pro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Sadly no..It requires significant computing horsepower to do that calculation so it has to be done on the PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

So Pro has full control over relative phase of subs and sats - great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

So what does the sub EQ that is part of the standard XT32 with my 80.2 do with respect to phasing for the two sub woofers in my system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Sub EQ HT is independent of MultEQ. It can work with any version of MultEQ including XT32. It is a method for properly blending two subwoofers. Each sub is measured individually and the differences in level and delay between the two subs are corrected. Then the subs are treated as "one" and MultEQ pings them together to create a single filter. We found that this gives better results than creating a filter for each sub separately.

Hi Chris,

I'm still a bit unclear about the issue of phase.

In an effort to resolve that uncertainty I'd like to make a number of statements which reflect my current understanding (or confusion ) and if you wouldn't mind could you please confirm, correct or amplify each statement?
  • All devices that have MultEQ XT32 happen to also have Sub EQ HT.

  • If you have a Sub EQ HT device and two subwoofers the issue of manually adjusting the phase between the subwoofers is irrelevant because Audyssey sets the timing individually and by correctly adjusting the timing by definition it sets the subwoofers in phase.

  • If you do not have a Sub EQ HT and have two or more identical subwoofers you can get them in phase at the primary listening location by locating them the same distance from the first measurement location.

  • If you do not have Sub EQ HT and have two or more subwoofers that can't be located the same distance from the first measurement location, then it may be beneficial to either manually change the Audyssey established distance or adjust the phase controls on the subwoofers. However, these approaches would require using measurement software to provide visibility of the effects of altering the distance or phase and through trial and error to find values that yield the flattest pre-Audyssey calibration frequency response. Then run the version of MultEQ that you have to further adjust the combined response.

  • If you have MultEQ Pro it will adjust the phase relationship between the subwoofer and the satellites to yield the smoothest response near the recommended crossover frequency.

Thanks.

Larry
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post #34197 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 01:38 PM
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I'd like to add a question to Larry's: why is there a need to "phase-align" subwoofers? It has been shown that adding delays (subwoofer to mains and/or subwoofer to subwoofer in a multiple subwoofer setup) can considerably improve the in-room frequency response at the listening position(s).

Markus

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post #34198 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 02:37 PM
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Does an AVR that's equipped with MultEQ XT, like an Integra DTR-80.1 for example, also have the Sub EQ HT feature?
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post #34199 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

Does an AVR that's equipped with MultEQ XT, like an Integra DTR-80.1 for example, also have the Sub EQ HT feature?

http://www.audyssey.com/products/?cat_filter=38
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post #34200 of 71785 Old 01-01-2011, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

You could also change the listening location and/or use acoustic treatments but those would be bulky.
By the way, a "room null" can't be moved. A room's modal pattern distibution is fixed because it is a property of the room, not the source.

yes.."moving a room null" was a poor choice of words on my part....
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