"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1200 - AVS Forum
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post #35971 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

*Other*???

Kind Regards,

Keith

Klingons.


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post #35972 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Limp Fox View Post

Hello everyone. Can someone please do me a big favor and either help me or help others understand Audyssey better and Audyssey with THX and subs?

The convo about my subs not working gets started in post 12596 and so far we are only about a page in. I think having some one or some people who are very knowledgable with Audyssey chime in will really help things out. If I am just not understanding then it can tremendously help me out, but if I am right and others might not get Audyssey and just blame my sub issues on it then perhaps they need some help understanding.

Keep in mind, since others did not that I did not run my subs with Audyssey. It has been advised not to run them with Audyssey from ED from day 1. Only recently after speaking with some one from Audyssey (Chris I think) did I try running the 18" s450 sub I have with it. Currently the sub to is out of comission and I do not blame Audyssey for it since I was having issues with the little A2-300 sub woofer pretty much from the begining when I first got it. Went through 4 amps one after another.

Ok here's the link
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...53081&page=420
thread #12596 and beyound.

Judd


If I understood your posts correctly you have never run Audyssey with the subs connected, so Audyssey can't be the problem. Unless Onks work way differently from Denons, once you plug the subs in and tell the reeiver you have them, Audyssey will turn off, anyway. It won't run with speakers it has not "seen" and corrected "in action."

The advice you've gotten from ED suggests that there is clipping somewhere in the preamp stages. Since Audyssey is not running on the subs, Audyssey cannot be contributing to the clipping. Something else must be amiss.

I can't recall people saying that their subs failed after running Audyssey. Audyssey will not try to increase output of the sub at any frequency below the -3 dB point that it measures in your room, as I understand it. What some have experienced is that after Audyssey eliminates various peaks in the sub's in-room performance, setting the sub to be the correct loudness will turn it up more than it would have been turned up with a frequency response dominated by big peaks.

Naturally, turning up the sub means turning up the very low frequencies, too, so in subs without a rumble filter, you can push the sub itself into distortion on loud peaks with very low frequency energy.

But again that's not what you've experienced. Looks like your voice coil fried. I'm no expert, but I think the risk with very low frequency peaks is overexcursion damaging the driver so it no longer works. Might develop a rub (scraping sound), might simply stop making noise.

While it's a potential problem, and it depends on how loudly you listen, with a sealed sub, the sub essentially self-protects against overexcursion and your "risks" relate to hearing distortion. I suspect I get some of this with my significantly less capable sub in some circumstances. But I only hear a problem very seldom. An explosion may contain a lot of low frequency energy, but it contains kind of an undifferentiated mass of frequencies (compared to a musical note and its harmonics) which tends to make added distortion not call attention to itself. Not suggesting that a cleaner version would not be superior (saving for new sub now) but unless you know how a particular explosion is supposed to sound, the added harmonic content may not be noticeable.

I'd focus on getting the "gain structure" right with any new sub. So that your input signal is not clipped (basically this would have you turning up the volume on the sub to keep the receiver's sub channel level lower)
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post #35973 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

*Other*???

Kind Regards,

Keith

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Klingons.

U guys!

My kids are 9, 7, 5, and......gummy bears, wrappers, M&M's......
Not as bad as "The Rocky Horror Picture" show clean up though, I worked 4 months in 10th grade 1978 cleaning theaters, and that theater was the stickiest/dirtiest after every show. Friday and Sat late night/early mornings.
(Southfield Michigan Prudential Plaza theater back then, I still remember the name)
We'd sweep each row of seats stuff into the aisle, and have 10's of garbage bags packed with the junk.
Then, take buckets of HOT water w/cleaning solution, from the top of the theater dump buckets down and mop up all the floors gooieyness, just to re-do it the next night.
IMO, kids today don't work like we used to, they are too busy texting/facebooking/etc how "bored" they are.

btw, I know EVERY line from that movie still, we saw all flicks for free, got to flirt/other with the candy counter girls, etc....

Mike R,P.E. clickable DIY hot links:

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post #35974 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 11:48 AM
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I posted this question on the Integra 80.2 forum and it was suggested that I try here. I measured my left front speaker and sub utilizing a test sweep first with the Integra set as two channel stereo and then all channel stereo and got different results from about 150hz on down. I don't happen to think this has anything to do with Audyssey but rather the Integra approach to all channel stereo versus two channel stereo.



Any ideas why I would get different results in just the bass?

R 8:28


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post #35975 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I posted this question on the Integra 80.2 forum and it was suggested that I try here. I measured my left front speaker and sub utilizing a test sweep first with the Integra set as two channel stereo and then all channel stereo and got different results from about 150hz on down. I don't happen to think this has anything to do with Audyssey but rather the Integra approach to all channel stereo versus two channel stereo.

Any ideas why I would get different results in just the bass?

I know from my experience that the bass is boosted in my system when listening to stereo CD's in all ch stereo mode. I surmised that there is additional sub content because of the additional channels being bass-managed.


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post #35976 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I know from my experience that the bass is boosted in my system when listening to stereo CD's in all ch stereo mode.

You've done it now! Chris will be along in a few moments to punish you. All Channel Stereo indeed

Kind Regards,

Keith


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post #35977 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I know from my experience that the bass is boosted in my system when listening to stereo CD's in all ch stereo mode. I surmised that there is additional sub content because of the additional channels being bass-managed.

Works for me.

I don't listen to all channel so it doesn't really matter but wanted to make sure I didn't have some kind of problem.

R 8:28


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post #35978 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You've done it now! Chris will be along in a few moments to punish you. All Channel Stereo indeed

Kind Regards,

Keith

Even more likely since I select that mode when I want more bass!


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post #35979 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You've done it now! Chris will be along in a few moments to punish you. All Channel Stereo indeed

Kind Regards,

Keith

Keith,

The only excuse acceptable for All Channel Stereo is in case Jeff has tossed a house party!!

Cheers, Feri


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post #35980 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Keith,

The only excuse acceptable for All Channel Stereo is in case Jeff has tossed a house party!!

He says he uses it when he wants more bass too. I think he's a closet headbanger

Kind Regards,

Keith


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post #35981 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

He says he uses it when he wants more bass too. I think he's a closet headbanger

Kind Regards,

Keith

Looks like I've been outed.


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post #35982 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I posted this question on the Integra 80.2 forum and it was suggested that I try here. I measured my left front speaker and sub utilizing a test sweep first with the Integra set as two channel stereo and then all channel stereo and got different results from about 150hz on down. ...

Could you be more precise about the nature of the test? Did you run this test with only the left front speaker connected as a satellite, all the other satellites disconnected, so that both represent the sub with just the one left front speaker, the only difference being the choice of processing mode? Or were all speakers connected, with just the left stereo channel being driven, so that the all-channel stereo mode is showing comb filtering between several satellite speakers?

Did you have DynEQ enabled when you ran this test? It looks to me as if you did.

Whichever way you ran the test, it is normal to see a boost in the sub relative to the rest of the range when driving two channels with the identical signal. The two channels are combined electrically with no interference in the sub, and combined acoustically in the room above the crossover. The result is an apparent 3-6dB boost in the bass when two front channels are driven. I would expect to see a similar effect appear, but even stronger, in all-channel stereo. Irrespective of exactly how the two stereo channels are divided over 5/6/7 satellite speakers, you end up with multiple identical channels being combined electrically in the sub and acoustically in the room. When only one front channel is driven instead of two, you would still have the bass content from 2.5 or 3.5 satellite speakers diverted below the crossover to the sub, and combined there electrically without loss. So a ~4 dB boost, as you are seeing, would seem reasonable to me. (I've not verified this, as I still have only a 2.1 system, so I've only personally measured the interference between two front channels.)

Bill
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post #35983 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I know from my experience that the bass is boosted in my system when listening to stereo CD's in all ch stereo mode. I surmised that there is additional sub content because of the additional channels being bass-managed.
I get an audible boost in the bass frequency when listening to 2-channel CD's in all channel stereo from my Integra DTR-80.1. Very noticable when switching from 2-channel stereo. It's fun for parties, although I don't know how much I'd want to use it for everyday listening. I'm no acoustic expert, but I always figured that it was due to all of the bass speakers in my 9.2 system working at the same time in phase with each other. But that's just a guess. Anybody out there know exactly what's going on?

Cheers,
SB

ps - please don't tell Chris that I use the all channel stereo mode. I think we all know how he feels about it
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
... all channel stereo versus two channel stereo.

[...]

Any ideas why I would get different results in just the bass?
I never understood what "all channel stereo" is or what it's for. Looks like the left and right channel simply get summed and that mono mix is sent to each speaker. Bass is mostly monophonic (coherent signal in all channels) hence you'll see an increased level at lower frequencies when channels are summed.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #35985 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly
I'm no acoustic expert, but I always figured that it was due to all of the bass speakers in my 9.2 system working at the same time in phase with each other. But that's just a guess. Anybody out there know exactly what's going on?

Cheers,
SB
It's duplication in the signal that gets sent to the sub. Here's how to verify it: select all-ch stereo and then do the following two tests
1) disconnect the wires to all satellites
2) reconnect a single pair of speakers and set all other speakers to large (and turn double-bass off).

In 1), you see the boost; in 2), you don't. In fact, 2) is typically how you would use REW on non-front speakers.
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I never understood what "all channel stereo" is or what it's for.
Markus,

Apart from parties when the house is full of people, here are some more tips/ideas for the practical use of "all channel stereo":

- when listening to poorly recorded music,
- during house cleaning and repair,
- when you are not a home music enthusiast/purist per se,
- when using it to break-in new speakers,

Oooops, almost forgot to add:

- when wife loves listening to music all day long.

Friday humor, eh?! Have a nice weekend!

Cheers, Feri


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post #35987 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post
Could you be more precise about the nature of the test? Did you run this test with only the left front speaker connected as a satellite, all the other satellites disconnected, so that both represent the sub with just the one left front speaker, the only difference being the choice of processing mode? Or were all speakers connected, with just the left stereo channel being driven, so that the all-channel stereo mode is showing comb filtering between several satellite speakers?
Left channel ONLY and all other speakers were turned off.

Quote:
Did you have DynEQ enabled when you ran this test? It looks to me as if you did.
It was not enabled

Quote:
Whichever way you ran the test, it is normal to see a boost in the sub relative to the rest of the range when driving two channels with the identical signal. The two channels are combined electrically with no interference in the sub, and combined acoustically in the room above the crossover. The result is an apparent 3-6dB boost in the bass when two front channels are driven. I would expect to see a similar effect appear, but even stronger, in all-channel stereo. Irrespective of exactly how the two stereo channels are divided over 5/6/7 satellite speakers, you end up with multiple identical channels being combined electrically in the sub and acoustically in the room. When only one front channel is driven instead of two, you would still have the bass content from 2.5 or 3.5 satellite speakers diverted below the crossover to the sub, and combined there electrically without loss. So a ~4 dB boost, as you are seeing, would seem reasonable to me. (I've not verified this, as I still have only a 2.1 system, so I've only personally measured the interference between two front channels.)

Bill

R 8:28


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post #35988 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post


I never understood what "all channel stereo" is or what it's for. Looks like the left and right channel simply get summed and that mono mix is sent to each speaker. Bass is mostly monophonic (coherent signal in all channels) hence you'll see an increased level at lower frequencies when channels are summed.

Had a custom installer tell me he couldn't remember all the installs that he would go back to only to see that the customer was watching everything (including 5.1 movies) in 5 channel stereo. Customers said they liked more "sound" coming from the surrounds. Ouch!

Regards,
John

Regards,
John
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post

Had a custom installer tell me he couldn't remember all the installs that he would go back to only to see that the customer was watching everything (including 5.1 movies) in 5 channel stereo. Customers said they liked more "sound" coming from the surrounds. Ouch!

Regards,
John

i listen to a lot of recorded "boots" IE; live shows & all stereo make them shine
but on Cd's there is quite a stereo effect on my system in this mode
mind you i don't do serious listening in this mode but when doing things all over the house it makes for a good listen while I work .. you know the "Honey DOO" stuff
L O L ...

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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post #35990 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:22 PM
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RE: Denon Upgrades

What does the "including Audyssey Pro" mean -- is a Pro kit (and license) included?

Quote:


Link

RECENT UPDATES/UPGRADES

[AVR-5308CI(A)] (02/07/2011)
Denon AVR-5308CI UPGRADE

It’s Official! Denon will be offering an upgrade to our flagship A/V Surround components, the AVR-5308CI.
The upgrade program will begin in October and will include the following feature enhancements to these already incredible products, ensuring them of being the entertainment centerpiece to their owners’ home.

What is included in this upgrade

* Audyssey MultEQ XT32 (including Audyssey Pro)
* Audyssey DSX Surround Processing
* Dolby PLIIz Surround Processing
* 3D Video Pass-through via HDMI

How do you get this upgrade?

The upgrade will be done via both hardware and firmware, and will be done at our many Denon Factory Service Centers around the country. Click Here to go to our Updates & Upgrades Page.

How much does this upgrade cost?

Pricing for the upgrade will be $1099 and will also include the return shipping and new box and packing if needed for shipping to or from from the Service Center.

When will the upgrade be available? More information on the upgrade process will be released in September, however we invite you to sign up for email updates on this amazing Feature Upgrade from Denon!



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post #35991 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

i listen to a lot of recorded "boots" IE; live shows & all stereo make them shine
but on Cd's there is quite a stereo effect on my system in this mode
mind you i don't do serious listening in this mode but when doing things all over the house it makes for a good listen while I work .. you know the "Honey DOO" stuff
L O L ...

+1, in the basement when we have the internet radio on in the HT + the 2nd zone going with same I have the HT in all ch stereo mode....

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Is there an optimal sequence to applying audyssey, installing room treatments, and adjusting speaker placement?

I don't have audyssey(xt32) yet, or room treatments such as bass traps and some kind of wall panels etc. that I'm looking at. I was curious to know if running audyssey would give a better idea of what kind and where to place room treatments before purchasing them.

I guess the speaker placement can be a best guess thing done first, then the audyssey, then by the results, one can determine which treatments. Right? Does audyssey give results precise enough to know which frequencies need, for lack of a better word, "fixing"? I see the room treatments affect certain frequencies, so afterwards, of course the audyssey would be ran again.

Am I on the right track here?
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post #35993 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cissado View Post

Is there an optimal sequence to applying audyssey, installing room treatments, and adjusting speaker placement?

I don't have audyssey(xt32) yet, or room treatments such as bass traps and some kind of wall panels etc. that I'm looking at. I was curious to know if running audyssey would give a better idea of what kind and where to place room treatments before purchasing them.

I guess the speaker placement can be a best guess thing done first, then the audyssey, then by the results, one can determine which treatments. Right? Does audyssey give results precise enough to know which frequencies need, for lack of a better word, "fixing"? I see the room treatments affect certain frequencies, so afterwards, of course the audyssey would be ran again.

Am I on the right track here?

Optimize your room before Audyssey is optimal.
Audyssey can't fix everything.

Mike


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post #35994 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Optimize your room before Audyssey is optimal.
Audyssey can't fix everything.

Mike

Yes, but aside from the best speaker placement I can get right now, wouldn't audyssey 'help' me optimize the room by telling me where and how much room treatments should be?

Just browsing the room treatments, they have different frequencies that I can "adjust" or help or whatver the words they use are. If audyssey tells me which ones are being or are trying to be fixed, I thought it would help me buy the room treatments. THEN afterwards, I can run audyssey again.
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post #35995 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cissado View Post

Yes, but aside from the best speaker placement I can get right now, wouldn't audyssey 'help' me optimize the room by telling me where and how much room treatments should be?

Just browsing the room treatments, they have different frequencies that I can "adjust" or help or whatver the words they use are. If audyssey tells me which ones are being or are trying to be fixed, I thought it would help me buy the room treatments. THEN afterwards, I can run audyssey again.

How does Audyssey "TELL" you what treatments to:
- buy (brand, specific type)
- where to place


???

Better to call a room treatment company with your room specifics, preferably with a diagram and ask their opinion.

The Audyssey 'readout" is a rough approximation of what it is doing.

Mike


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post #35996 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

How does Audyssey "TELL" you what treatments to:
- buy (brand, specific type)
- where to place


???

.

Mike



Ha, I knew I'd get myself in trouble by not knowing the exact terminology.

I didn't mean it exactly like that. I just assumed that audyssey, giving graphs of where the sound is higher or lower, one could deduce certain things and make room corrections that way.

I need to read more. I've spread myself too thin by reading hundreds and hundreds of pages from the different Receivers I'm looking to buy, then the audyssey pages, now the room treatments.... I'm getting confused. Thanks for the help. I'll keep reading for now.
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post #35997 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:43 PM
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Had a custom installer tell me he couldn't remember all the installs that he would go back to only to see that the customer was watching everything (including 5.1 movies) in 5 channel stereo. Customers said they liked more "sound" coming from the surrounds. Ouch!

Regards,
John

I use all channel stereo for ball games. That and the height speakers. Anyone have a better idea?
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post #35998 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

... Did you have DynEQ enabled when you ran this test? It looks to me as if you did. ...

It was not enabled

Looking at the gradual upward slope in the bass, if you did not have DynEQ enabled, I would infer that there is a difference between your mic and the calibration file you are using. I saw something like this when I was measuring with a RadioShack meter using a generic calibration file for a "typical" meter. That anomaly went away when I started using a calibrated mic with its individual file. Of course, this is independent of the question you asked, about the relatively constant difference between the all-stereo and 2-channel stereo curves.

Bill
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post #35999 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:48 PM
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My current setup is as follows:

JVC DLA-RS1
Da-Lite high power 133" screen
Onkyo TX-NR3008
Polk RTi8's
Polk CSi5
Polk FXi3
Two MFW-15 subwoofers

ROOM DIMENSIONS: 21L x 12w x8h


So I tried doing the Audyssey setup two times now, both produced the same outcome. My room is dead silent when doing the measurements, i physically leave the room when measuring, and use all 8 positions.

First calibrate each sub volume level to 75DB using the Audyssey microphone and on screen setup which puts the gain control on my subs at about the 3' o clock position. After running the setup I checked all the SPL levels using a radio shack SPL meter and my fronts, center and surrounds read 72-73DB. Both of my subs read 62-63DB.

Why is Audyssey setting my sub woofers to 62DB?! Should I manually adjust them using the gain and the Radio shack meter to read 72-73DB or use the "level calibration" menu and adjust them in there? It puts each sub at -4.0 in that menu.
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post #36000 of 72388 Old 02-04-2011, 05:50 PM
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Getting ready to watch "Takers" here shortly and would like some bass Should I adjust the gain on the subs to read 72-73DB or go into the level calibration menu and adjust the subs from -4.0 to +6.0?
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