"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1209 - AVS Forum
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post #36241 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 02:28 PM
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Quick question in regards to Audyssey. I have an Onkyo 606, which only has 3 spots to utilize it. My media room has 2 rows of seating. Audyssey calibrates the center, the right, and the left. Should I calibrate from the front row, the back row, or in the middle. I actually utilize both rows, depending on what I am watching.

Thanks for your help

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post #36242 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahm View Post

Hi SB

Audyssey has recommended the trim level at -15 for Sound Equalizer, based on 24 point room measurement i performed.

With regard to sub gain, i thought it should be kept at the 12 o'clock position, however i can always go the the 10 o'clock position when i do the next calibration.

I am confused when you mention sub gain being maxed out as i can go higher on the volume knob

If THX recommendations are to be belived, everything should be set to THX

This is getting interesting.....

Keep the recommendations coming folks!

The weird thing is, if i have messed it all up, it still sounds better than before!!

Regards

mahm

Hello mahm,

Audyssey didn't recommend -15 for the sub trim level on your 886. What's going on is that -15 happens to be as low as the 886 will go, so there's really no idea where Audyssey would have set your sub trim level if it was allowed to do so without going up against the range limit of your 886. I know, 'cause I ran into the same problem when I first set up Audyssey. What I strongly suggest is for you to back off on the Volume (gain) control on your sub. The recommended 12 o'clock position is just something to get you into the ballpark. If you've set it at 12 o'clock try turning it down to around 10 o'clock. Then re-run Audyssey. You can just run through it for the first (MLP) position and check where Audyssey put the sub trim level on your 886. Audyssey will then have a chance to work its magic on your sub frequencies. Personally, I'm comfortable when Audyssey sets the sub gain in my AVR somewhere between -12 and -9. But it really doesn't matter as long as your sub trim level isn't pushing the -15 setting.

Cheers,
SB
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post #36243 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahm View Post

Hi SB

I am confused when you mention sub gain being maxed out as i can go higher on the volume knob

If THX recommendations are to be belived, everything should be set to THX

mahm

In simple terms with the current 12 o'clock setting on your sub "knob", Audyssey adjusted volume for your sub to -15db (meaning your sub is producing too much bass and Audyssey had to trim it down -15db). However, the culprit is that -15db is the maximum that Audyssey can trim it down to, and there is a good chance I might have to go ever lower than that, but can't. If you reduce your sub volume by setting it at 9 or 10 o'clock, Audyssey might have better chance to adjust the -db value to appropriate level, without hitting the -15db bottom limit.
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post #36244 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t0lik View Post

In simple terms with the current 12 o'clock setting on your sub "knob", Audyssey adjusted volume for your sub to -15db (meaning your sub is producing too much bass and Audyssey had to trim it down -15db). However, the culprit is that -15db is the maximum that Audyssey can trim it down to, and there is a good chance I might have to go ever lower than that, but can't. If you reduce your sub volume by setting it at 9 or 10 o'clock, Audyssey might have better chance to adjust the -db value to appropriate level, without hitting the -15db bottom limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

Hello mahm,

Audyssey didn't recommend -15 for the sub trim level on your 886. What's going on is that -15 happens to be as low as the 886 will go, so there's really no idea where Audyssey would have set your sub trim level if it was allowed to do so without going up against the range limit of your 886. I know, 'cause I ran into the same problem when I first set up Audyssey. What I strongly suggest is for you to back off on the Volume (gain) control on your sub. The recommended 12 o'clock position is just something to get you into the ballpark. If you've set it at 12 o'clock try turning it down to around 10 o'clock. Then re-run Audyssey. You can just run through it for the first (MLP) position and check where Audyssey put the sub trim level on your 886. Audyssey will then have a chance to work its magic on your sub frequencies. Personally, I'm comfortable when Audyssey sets the sub gain in my AVR somewhere between -12 and -9. But it really doesn't matter as long as your sub trim level isn't pushing the -15 setting.

Cheers,
SB

Hi guys

NOW I GET IT!

Thanks for clarifying that.

OK, so when i do the next calibration, i'll set the sub to 10 o'clock and see what happens.

Still confused about the rest of what was on page 27 of the Audyssey manual and the crossovers

But i have learned something in the last half hour

Keep the advice coming please folks!

mahm
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post #36245 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 03:03 PM
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Generally speaking doing "what" to a room allows audyssey to not boost the highs as much? Ie more curtains or what?

I've done about all I can think of....
If you want to go back a few pages and have a look at my room any help is grateful.

Thanks,
Matt

(a tired and sore eared 4311 owner!)
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post #36246 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wouldtoo View Post

Quick question in regards to Audyssey. I have an Onkyo 606, which only has 3 spots to utilize it. My media room has 2 rows of seating. Audyssey calibrates the center, the right, and the left. Should I calibrate from the front row, the back row, or in the middle. I actually utilize both rows, depending on what I am watching.

Thanks for your help

My uneducated guess would be to calibrate from the middle row
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post #36247 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Erwin,

There is no question that more speakers is better, but it becomes an issue of diminishing returns. Rear Heights would most likely not add much more than what the Back Surrounds are already adding--especially since most times the Back Surrounds are mounted above ear level. We have done experiments with that and several other candidate locations and found that there are improvements to be made with additional speakers, but the setup and processing complexity needed don't justify adding them.

I just can't help thinking that working for Audyssey and doing these types of experiments must be the most fun job in the world. Maybe, when I retire, I can offer to work there for free as a janitor, provided I can listen in on these experiments.

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post #36248 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrix View Post

Generally speaking doing "what" to a room allows audyssey to not boost the highs as much? Ie more curtains or what?

I've done about all I can think of....
If you want to go back a few pages and have a look at my room any help is grateful.

Thanks,
Matt

(a tired and sore eared 4311 owner!)

I would say the opposite actually -- having more reflective surfaces would reduce the amount of high frequencies being absorbed and thus decrease the need for Audyssey to boost the highs.

I think it would also help if you:

1) Make sure that the LCR+ Wide speakers are raised so that their tweeters are at ear-height.

2) Point the tweeters of all speakers at your ears.

3) Use a tighter set of mic calibration positions. Don't measure too far from the MLP.

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post #36249 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 03:43 PM
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I ran Audyssey a few times with the Denon AVR-A100/4311. It always sets the sub 3 db below the Onkyo 5008. All the other reading are close to identical between the 2 receivers. Two frequency sweeps using an RS SPL meter showed a 3 db increase over the Onkyo at 5 KHz

I did a lot of back and forth listening tests, mostly in stereo and found the Onkyo to be the winner. Both units sound close and continued listening to either unit would satisfy most. But I found the Onkyo to be slightly more lively and dynamic in comparison. I think this may be due to the 32 bit DACs and the 3 transformers. As far as heat goes, the Onkyo is warmer in one area and cold in others. The Denon is warm all over. The total heat output is probably close to the same. A couple surprises were the speaker binding posts look identical. The front plate on the A100 sparkles in the sunlight. For me that is where the sparkle ended. In the end it is like comparing Garmin with a Tom Tom GPS. If you like menus, then get the Denon. If you like convenience and being able to adjust Video, Bass, Treble and Level on the fly, get the Onkyo. I don't think you can adjust the tone in Audyssey with the Denon. I much prefer the remote on the Onkyo. The Denon will drive 11 speakers with the addition of 2 more amps. With the Onkyo you have to give up the back speakers if you want high and wide at the same time. Denon seems to do the DSX setup a lot faster. May be more accurate, takes distance down to tenths. Denon wouldn't allow a 70 db crossover, like the Onkyo. With the graphs, I got what looks like the same results using a tripod and a mic boom.
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post #36250 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 03:46 PM
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My new construction build is prewired for in-ceiling 6.1 surround w/ only one back surround. I intend to add two bookshelf speakers for the fronts, then use the front in-ceiling speakers as the heights but will still only have ONE rear surround.

My question is: is one rear surround sufficient? This is not a reference system or anything but I would like to get the best sound possible for an in-ceiling installation based on my budget. The drywall is already set but I could get up in the attic and fish another speaker cable to the rear surround for 9.1 but the placement would be a little off center as the single rear is perfectly in the center of the room. Anyways, ramble over...I hope you get the gist of my question.
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post #36251 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post


I would say the opposite actually -- having more reflective surfaces would reduce the amount of high frequencies being absorbed and thus decrease the need for Audyssey to boost the highs.

I think it would also help if you:

1) Make sure that the LCR+ Wide speakers are raised so that their tweeters are at ear-height.

2) Point the tweeters of all speakers at your ears.

3) Use a tighter set of mic calibration positions. Don't measure too far from the MLP.

Mark

Thanks streetsmart - ye I currently have all speakers tilted up / down to MLP

I have heard a few times now about tighter mic positioning which I did with current slightly better sounding tune how tight are we talking here???

....a 1m by .5m rectangle over MLP?
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post #36252 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrix View Post

Thanks streetsmart - ye I currently have all speakers tilted up / down to MLP

I have heard a few times now about tighter mic positioning which I did with current slightly better sounding tune how tight are we talking here???

....a 1m by .5m rectangle over MLP?

mine was even tighter 12"
it will be done agin anyway adding more speakers soon
but sounds Killer with a 5008 Onk

Mike

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post #36253 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 04:01 PM
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And you did 8 positions with a 12" square over MLP? Far out!
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post #36254 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahm View Post


My uneducated guess would be to calibrate from the middle row

Thanks. I will calculate it from in the middle if the 2 (the walkway so-to-speak). I can get Audyssey to set it to sound good for only the front row, or only the back row, but not both at the same time. I don't know if the Onkyo 3800 with Audyssey XT32, I think it is, which does up to 8 positions, would do better. Am looking to upgrade to that maybe over summer.

Thanks again.

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post #36255 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahm View Post

Note: The Audyssey filter calculation is optimized based on your selected crossover
frequency setting in the “Crossover” drop-down menus. Make sure you select the same
crossover frequency as what you enter into the preamplifier/processor. If you do not, then the
subwoofer to satellite “splice” or transition region will not be optimally flat. Namely, there may
be frequency response peaks and dips that will negatively affect the sound quality.


If my understanding of the above is correct, Audyssey needs the crossover values I enter into my pre/pro (either the recommended or next best from the list) to calculate the filters which can the be saved to the SEQ.

What are you thoughts?

Somehow, that is being interpreted incorrectly. "Make sure you select the same crossover frequency as what you enter into the preamplifier/processor" really means "make sure you enter the same crossover into the pre/pro that you selected" in the pulldown menu.

Actually, re-reading it a few times, I think it is the way it is worded that leads to the misinterpretation. It could be phrased better.

Jeff


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post #36256 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Somehow, that is being interpreted incorrectly. "Make sure you select the same crossover frequency as what you enter into the preamplifier/processor" really means "make sure you enter the same crossover into the pre/pro that you selected" in the pulldown menu.

Actually, re-reading it a few times, I think it is the way it is worded that leads to the misinterpretation. It could be phrased better.

Jeff

That is what i mean Jeff

I didn't 'select' a crossover from the pull down menu (from the SEQ software on the laptop), but did select a crossover in the 886. That is why i reckon i did it wrong

Maybe Chris can come in at some point to clarify matters for us
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post #36257 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahm View Post

That is what i mean Jeff

I didn't 'select' a crossover from the pull down menu (from the SEQ software on the laptop), but did select a crossover in the 886. That is why i reckon i did it wrong

Maybe Chris can come in at some point to clarify matters for us

Well if you didn't select crossover frequencies in the pulldown menus, then the defaults were used .. by default. You only need to enter those crossovers into the 886 after you complete the SEQ calibration. And you enter the distances and trims detected by MultEQ Pro, too.


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post #36258 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtara View Post

Is there any way to view the EQ curve for the sub?

Yes: connect the sub-out of your receiver to a line-in jack on a computer and run REW.
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post #36259 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

The result followed the speaker, so do not worry about it. Some speakers have the mid and tweeter wired in reverse polarity to obtain the best frequency response on the listening axis. No reason to suspect that both speakers are wired wrong versus the manufacturer's design

Yes, what batpig said, it followed the speaker though

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

As an aside, are you sure hte split is between bass and mid drivers? Many appear to be between tweeter and mid or bass driver depending on what's there.

Unless you have the detailed specs for the speaker, or a review with full measurements that shows the intended, designed relative polarity of the drivers, I would tend toward the "no changes" approach. Put things back to plus to plus on all terminals. This is consistent with Audyssey's recommendations, and you could change your speaker's performance by changing the designed phase between te drivers.

But that's just my guess. YMMV

Check with MA tech engineer, phase is not reversed in these speakers at all. Only ones they make that are is in ceiling. He also reported he tested a different model MA R6 with Pioneer's MCAA and it reported out of phase. He took it apart and checked and no mis-wiring. He suggested that since it followed the speaker I should check internal wiring but that it was low probability, but possible it was wired at the factory wrong. Any rate he is sending data back to UK to validate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

but if BOTH are not wired wrong, how did the result "follow" the speaker? If they are the same, why is only ONE of them reporting the phase error, regardless of where it is placed?

agree it doesn't matter where I place it phase error follows w/ Audyssey...

Quote:
Originally Posted by raster8 View Post

With just the front L R speakers playing, and the HF inputs disconnected, play some pink noise or tune between radio stations for noise. Whichever polarity gives you more low frequency response is the correct way to wire the LF input. If it turns out that you need to reverse the +- on one side, do it!

Interesting test was after I reversed polarity, ran Audyssey auto setup again, all tested fine. It also changed by speaker size in the front from SMALL to LARGE and the crossover was set to FULL. I am not sure what to make of this...
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post #36260 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrix View Post

And you did 8 positions with a 12" square over MLP? Far out!

Yeah 4 up 6" & 4 down 6"
12 " square Right @ the recliner L O L
it is "The Man-Cave "

the wife let me have total control over the living room
I love Her !

you don't want to know what I had to give-up in return ....

Mike

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post #36261 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirelessness View Post

My new construction build is prewired for in-ceiling 6.1 surround w/ only one back surround. I intend to add two bookshelf speakers for the fronts, then use the front in-ceiling speakers as the heights but will still only have ONE rear surround.

My question is: is one rear surround sufficient? This is not a reference system or anything but I would like to get the best sound possible for an in-ceiling installation based on my budget. The drywall is already set but I could get up in the attic and fish another speaker cable to the rear surround for 9.1 but the placement would be a little off center as the single rear is perfectly in the center of the room. Anyways, ramble over...I hope you get the gist of my question.

I have only 1 back surround and find it quite adequate (room is 17' L and 13' W, and there is ~ 4' from MLP to back wall). I also have DSX Heights, so overall a 8.1 rig; works great in my room. (But all speakers are external, i.e., no inwall or inceiling ones.)
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post #36262 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrix View Post

Thanks streetsmart - ye I currently have all speakers tilted up / down to MLP

I have heard a few times now about tighter mic positioning which I did with current slightly better sounding tune how tight are we talking here???

....a 1m by .5m rectangle over MLP?

Yes, 1m x 0.5m is pretty tight. I use about 1.5m x 0.5m.

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post #36263 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ReneV View Post

Yes: connect the sub-out of your receiver to a line-in jack on a computer and run REW.

Cool. I'd just bookmarked REW and TruRTA. Mostly, I'm just curious what the curve looks like. (I have a Rythmik F-15).
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post #36264 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 09:15 PM
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Speaker detect error
Left Error.................................Right Error
surround left yes.........................Surround right yes
Front wide left no......................Front wide right no
Front high left no.......................Front high right no
Surround back left no................Surround back right no
Center yes...............................Subwoofer 1 ---

New onkyo 3008. Can't get past the first round of testing. Failure on the front right and left. I have tried reversing to test for out of phase.

Had no problem fully running audyssey with the denon 4311ci a few days ago.

any tips?
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post #36265 of 72409 Old 02-09-2011, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotchaa View Post


Interesting test was after I reversed polarity, ran Audyssey auto setup again, all tested fine. It also changed by speaker size in the front from SMALL to LARGE and the crossover was set to FULL. I am not sure what to make of this...

Actually that makes complete sense, with the LF drivers out of phase from L to R there would have been lots of cancellation. So before, Audyssey would detect poor LF response and set a high crossover point and speakers to SMALL and so your sub would do all the missing LF.

Now that you have corrected the phase error somewhere in your LF chain, Audyssey hears the fuller LF response and knows that your fronts are capable of full frequency response.

Now you can do a full calibration knowing that everything is correct, then reset the size to SMALL and 80Hz after and hear what the Audyssey Gods intended.
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post #36266 of 72409 Old 02-10-2011, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Yes, 1m x 0.5m is pretty tight. I use about 1.5m x 0.5m.

Mark

This topic of the size of the Audyssey bubble has come up many times before. I think ultimately it is good to experiment some within reason. I know that Audyssey's stance is that the bubble shouldn't be too small, even for one or two listeners. The more data Audyssey has about the listening area, the better it can prioritize what problems to deal with because they are "common" problems.

I find it odd that a video tutorial on Audyssey setup on AV forums in the UK, the guy says the front measurements should be 1 meter in front of the MLP, and then he proceeds to place the mic about half that distance for the measurements. A bit odd and sloppy IMHO.


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post #36267 of 72409 Old 02-10-2011, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

This topic of the size of the Audyssey bubble has come up many times before. I think ultimately it is good to experiment some within reason. I know that Audyssey's stance is that the bubble shouldn't be too small, even for one or two listeners. The more data Audyssey has about the listening area, the better it can prioritize what problems to deal with because they are "common" problems.

Yes, that's Audyssey's stance but why does MultEQ need to know anything about locations that are not within the listening area of a single seat setup? Why would the optimization yield better results? One would think the resulting frequency response would be much smoother without data points that are very different from those within a small area.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #36268 of 72409 Old 02-10-2011, 02:03 AM
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The degree of optimization achievable for the prime listening position lessens with the extension of the measuring area, because more and more compromises have to be dealt with by the transfer function. My standard advise would be to cover a sphere of about 1/3 - 1/2 yard around the mathematical center between the ears at ears height for the prime listening position to garner the most from the measuring process. This should remove most of the local disturbances due to room modes.
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post #36269 of 72409 Old 02-10-2011, 03:58 AM
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Edit: darn! This has been answered prefectly by various users and the advice taken on board by the OP. That will teach me to reply without reading all the new posts! I haven’t the heart to delete it now


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Originally Posted by mahm View Post

Hi SB

Audyssey has recommended the trim level at -15 for Sound Equalizer, based on 24 point room measurement i performed.

If the range only goes down to -15, the point is, how do you know it wouldn't have set it to -20 if it had been able to? That is SB's point I think.

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With regard to sub gain, i thought it should be kept at the 12 o'clock position, however i can always go the the 10 o'clock position when i do the next calibration.

You need to turn the sub down (using the sub's gain control) because at the moment Audyssey is setting it to the extent of its range at -15. If you turn down the sub gain you may find that Audyssey then sets it to, say, -12 or -10 and then you will be sure that it has been set properly and not just "run out of room' for adjustment further.

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I am confused when you mention sub gain being maxed out as i can go higher on the volume knob

He means you are maxed out on the trim level (at -15dB). FWIW my subs run their gain control at 9 o'clock position and the trims read about -4.5 dB.
Don't worry about where the gain control is set on the sub - just aim for a final trim reading that is somewhere more towards the middle of the range of -15db to +15dB rather than maxed out at the -15dB limit.

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This is getting interesting.....

Keep the recommendations coming folks!

The weird thing is, if i have messed it all up, it still sounds better than before!!

That's encouraging!

SB - sorry to jump in here - I know you can answer this post perfectly well yourself - but I was here anyway...

Kind Regards,

Keith


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post #36270 of 72409 Old 02-10-2011, 04:02 AM
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The degree of optimization achievable for the prime listening position lessens with the extension of the measuring area, because more and more compromises have to be dealt with by the transfer function.

To my knowledge this was never reconfirmed by Chris.

Markus

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