"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1231 - AVS Forum
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post #36901 of 71855 Old 02-23-2011, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dnoyeB View Post

This only seems logical to me. There is a complaint about Audyssey not doing this. I asked in this thread and got nothing but conspicuous silence. I assume it means none of the Audyssey receivers here are doing this.

All my recordings do not enter the receiver at reference quality. Especially when they come from different formats.

I have an Audyssey receiver on the way. If I find it doesn't do this, its probably going back. Pioneer's MCACC does this. I think its desirable.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one. I never studied up on Pioneers MCACC but you're saying that it lets you adjust tone/EQ on top of it's settings? If so, that's definitely desirable!
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post #36902 of 71855 Old 02-23-2011, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Emig5m View Post

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one. I never studied up on Pioneers MCACC but you're saying that it lets you adjust tone/EQ on top of it's settings? If so, that's definitely desirable!

I can't speak for other AVR manufacturers, but Denon allows you to use tone controls on top of Audyssey (if Dynamic EQ is turned off). Once Dynamic EQ is engaged you lose the ability to use the tone controls. Only makes sense, IMHO.

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post #36903 of 71855 Old 02-23-2011, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Where did you place the subs? How far from the listening location? Is your room very small with rigid walls?
Run MultEQ with the lowest gain setting, then check and report which level MultEQ has choosen.
I do not have a mic stand. What I did is placed a small camera tripod on the couch cushion and screwed the mic into the top of the tripod.

My subs are both in the front, about 1/3 from the wall on the left and right. I use the Jamo sub300 subs. Volume on both subs is all the way down. Crossover setting on the subs is all the way up to 150hz.
I changed the phase on the subs to 0, and placed the mic in the right position and got 76db on the subwoofer reading before continuing setup.

After 6 positions Audyssey MultEq calibration, my readings are: 0db for surrounds, -4.5db for center and -4db for front right, -2.5db for front left. Subwoofer was set to -5db.

I have subsequently put the subwoofer level up to +10db. At -5db, the bass is definitely there, but to get the THUMP that I like during movies, I find it way too low. This is why I worry it might be an issue when I need to adjust by 10db.

So Im thinking that its 1 of the options:
1) Something wrong with my Audyssey in my amp.
2) Audyssey's bass levels just set much lower than I like, and I'll have to adjust accordingly, nothing wrong with the actual amp at all.
3) Audyssey is messing up as I don;t have a proper tripod?

Thanks for the help!
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post #36904 of 71855 Old 02-23-2011, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by alkit View Post
After 6 positions Audyssey MultEq calibration, my readings are: 0db for surrounds, -4.5db for center and -4db for front right, -2.5db for front left. Subwoofer was set to -5db.

I have subsequently put the subwoofer level up to +10db. At -5db, the bass is definitely there, but to get the THUMP that I like during movies, I find it way too low. This is why I worry it might be an issue when I need to adjust by 10db.

So Im thinking that its 1 of the options:
1) Something wrong with my Audyssey in my amp.
2) Audyssey's bass levels just set much lower than I like, and I'll have to adjust accordingly, nothing wrong with the actual amp at all.
3) Audyssey is messing up as I don;t have a proper tripod?

Thanks for the help!
After having calibrated a lot of home cinema theatres, we can easily see the following needs:

1) Always use all (8) positions.

2) Be accurate with the first position, as this MUST be dead on center (sweet spot). The very first position sets the standard for the whole calibration - especially the speaker distances.

3) Don't place the microphone outside the area you plan to use. This will only make the sound worse. It's better to keep the covered area as small as possible, and also the exact same distance to left & right from sweet spot.

4) Get rid of pillows, tables and furniture between the microphone and the speakers before calibrating. If those are corrected for, they only tend to do more damage to the sound than if they are introduced (again) after the calibration.

5) Almost all receivers on the market will give too little information through the sub/LFE channel. We tend to put on 6-10dB before it "sounds right".
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post #36905 of 71855 Old 02-23-2011, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post
I can't speak for other AVR manufacturers, but Denon allows you to use tone controls on top of Audyssey (if Dynamic EQ is turned off). Once Dynamic EQ is engaged you lose the ability to use the tone controls. Only makes sense, IMHO.
This question comes up quite often it seems...
I'll add that Onkyo allows adjusting treble/bass "on top" of all Audyssey technologies: MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume (and I assume DSX as well which I don't personally use).
You can adjust (–10 dB to +10 dB in 2 dB steps) Treble and Bass for all speakers as well as the Bass for the subwoofer(s) for all listening modes except when the Direct, Pure Audio or a THX listening mode is selected.
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post #36906 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by alkit View Post
I do not have a mic stand. What I did is placed a small camera tripod on the couch cushion and screwed the mic into the top of the tripod.
Should work. Is the mic at ear height?

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Originally Posted by alkit View Post
My subs are both in the front, about 1/3 from the wall on the left and right
I'd try these configurations:



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Originally Posted by alkit View Post
I changed the phase on the subs to 0, and placed the mic in the right position and got 76db on the subwoofer reading before continuing setup.
What is "the right position"? The mic needs to be placed at the main listening position.
Changing phase on both subs shouldn't change output at all.

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Originally Posted by alkit View Post
So Im thinking that its 1 of the options:
1) Something wrong with my Audyssey in my amp.
2) Audyssey's bass levels just set much lower than I like, and I'll have to adjust accordingly, nothing wrong with the actual amp at all.
3) Audyssey is messing up as I don;t have a proper tripod?
Probably 2). Is Dynamic EQ engaged?

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #36907 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Should work. Is the mic at ear height?
It is ever so slightly below ear level.

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
I'd try these configurations:


Thanks for the pic, but can't see anything - it just says "domain unregistered"

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
What is "the right position"? The mic needs to be placed at the main listening position.
Changing phase on both subs shouldn't change output at all.
Got a 3 seater couch. I put the 1st position in the middle of the 3 seats

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Probably 2). Is Dynamic EQ engaged?
On the receiver, it says "AUDYSSEY" and under it, it says "Dynamic EQ", but when I go into my Audio settings on the amp, it says OFF for both Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume
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post #36908 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by alkit View Post
On the receiver, it says "AUDYSSEY" and under it, it says "Dynamic EQ", but when I go into my Audio settings on the amp, it says OFF for both Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume
Is "on the receiver" the front plate or the display? What's the difference between receiver and amp? Without actually seeing what you see it's hard to give any advice. You'd need to consult the manual.

Markus

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post #36909 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by scraps@midnight View Post
Thanks for the kind words. Many years of working on this beast! As to how it sounds...not great with Audyssey to be frank. Better when I bring up the level on the center but it still sounds a bit odd. The highs seem rolled off and the stage seems unnaturally large. It does bring the voices to the fore front which is nice but it seems artificial. There is a certain smoothness to the overall sound but it is less dynamic and sounds a bit blended. These are hard points to articulate so I hope that makes sense.

I did check the drivers, phase etc and all is well there. I tried changing the tweeter position and angle of the speaker placement and no real impact to the measurements. As suggested, maybe that is just how it measures in this room, dunno. If it is, I may not be a fan of the program overall and may need to come to terms with that in itself. I am going to keep at it and see what I can find for now.
I am in total awe of your system. I would have to sell a kidney, my wife, my dog, my car and my other kidney and still I wouldn't be able to afford that system of yours! Your centre speaker *stand* costs more than my centre speaker It must sound truly awesome - a very overused word but in your case it must be literally true.

This makes it all the more annoying that the centre speaker seems to be set wrongly. I've looked at some reviews of your centre speaker and also the specs and it does seem to me that there is no way it should be setting the XO to 100Hz. Even worse, you say that with Audyssey engaged the system doesn't sound all that good, so it's not even as though all the other benefits of Audyssey are compensating for this one problem.

I'm sorry I cannot suggest anything more, other than you send details of your system to Chris Kyriakakis and see if he can help - he will be far more familiar with systems of the quality of yours than pretty much anyone else on here I would think and he may have some ideas.

I hope you get a resolution to the problem because if you can make that system sound even better, you will surely have achieved something spectacular.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #36910 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by heavy-b View Post
So I think that your only option is to turn it down, or accept the ringing. If you are getting the ringing then you could be causing long term damage!
Many years ago I went to a King Crimson gig. This was in the days before sound levels at concerts were governed by law. The sound levels achieved in the hall were awesome. At the end of the gig, when I came out of the hall, I was slightly deaf and had a loud ringing in both my ears. Now, 40 years later, the ringing in my right ear is still there. It has been there for 40 years. Tinnitus. This was after about two hours exposure. Just a word of warning to everyone. Tinnitus is unpleasant and sometimes can wear you down. Just keep an eye (ear!) on those SPLs.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #36911 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 03:03 AM
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I am in total awe of your system. I would have to sell a kidney, my wife, my dog, my car and my other kidney and still I wouldn't be able to afford that system of yours! Your centre speaker *stand* costs more than my centre speaker It must sound truly awesome
That's exctly what the "high end" manufacturers want you to believe. "More expensive equals better sound." - that's just plain wrong. Do those manufacturer even show specs that would customers allow to choose the right system for their room? Far from it. Not a single frequency response graph on the Wilson site. Let alone polar data. The data I've seen from "independent" reviewers suggest that the Wilsons are nothing more than a rip-off. Any cheap EconoWave build will sound better.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #36912 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
That's exctly what the "high end" manufacturers want you to believe. "More expensive equals better sound." - that's just plain wrong. Do those manufacturer even show specs that would customers allow to choose the right system for their room? Far from it. Not a single frequency response graph on the Wilson site. Let alone polar data. The data I've seen from "independent" reviewers suggest that the Wilsons are nothing more than a rip-off. Any cheap EconoWave build will sound better.
I’d swap them for mine

Does "more cheap equal better sound"?

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #36913 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 03:36 AM
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I'd swap them for mine
So that you can have the same center problems?

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Does "more cheap equal better sound"?
Any black and white thinking doesn't help. But choosing a Formula 1 car by its color most certainly does not enable you to win the race.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #36914 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Many years ago I went to a King Crimson gig. This was in the days before sound levels at concerts were governed by law. The sound levels achieved in the hall were awesome. At the end of the gig, when I came out of the hall, I was slightly deaf and had a loud ringing in both my ears. Now, 40 years later, the ringing in my right ear is still there... Just keep an eye (ear!) on those SPLs...
Sorry about that. I remember a KC concert as a very impressive artistic weaving of musicianship and technology for the time. Fortunately I couldn't afford "good" seats in the theater and from the balcony, the levels were safe.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #36915 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 04:21 AM
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So that you can have the same center problems?
We haven't really established if he has a problem yet.


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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Any black and white thinking doesn't help. But choosing a Formula 1 car by its color most certainly does not enable you to win the race.
You seem to be saying that if something is very expensive it's automatically not much good. That is an absurd generalisation. Something very expensive can be excellent or worthless; something relatively cheap can be excellent or worthless. The point is that judging either way, by price alone, is pointless.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #36916 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 04:25 AM
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Sorry about that. I remember a KC concert as a very impressive artistic weaving of musicianship and technology for the time. Fortunately I couldn't afford "good" seats in the theater and from the balcony, the levels were safe.
Oh the gig was brilliant But the SPLs must have been absurd and I am still paying the price 40 years later. I only mentioned it as a warning that really high SPLs can permanently damage hearing, which we all know in an abstract way but which I know in a very real way. HST, I suspect the SPLs at the gig were way higher than what most of us can achieve at home. But then again, I was only at the gig for 2 hours and I believe the damage can be cumulative. I still listen at home at high (but not dangerous) SPLs - have to to overcome the tinnitus

Kind Regards,

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post #36917 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 05:33 AM
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You seem to be saying that if something is very expensive it's automatically not much good. That is an absurd generalisation. Something very expensive can be excellent or worthless; something relatively cheap can be excellent or worthless. The point is that judging either way, by price alone, is pointless.
Zactly, maybe your post here was misleading?
"Your centre speaker *stand* costs more than my centre speaker It must sound truly awesome"

Markus

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post #36918 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am in total awe of your system. I would have to sell a kidney, my wife, my dog, my car and my other kidney and still I wouldn't be able to afford that system of yours! Your centre speaker *stand* costs more than my centre speaker It must sound truly awesome - a very overused word but in your case it must be literally true.

This makes it all the more annoying that the centre speaker seems to be set wrongly. I've looked at some reviews of your centre speaker and also the specs and it does seem to me that there is no way it should be setting the XO to 100Hz. Even worse, you say that with Audyssey engaged the system doesn't sound all that good, so it's not even as though all the other benefits of Audyssey are compensating for this one problem.

I'm sorry I cannot suggest anything more, other than you send details of your system to Chris Kyriakakis and see if he can help - he will be far more familiar with systems of the quality of yours than pretty much anyone else on here I would think and he may have some ideas.

I hope you get a resolution to the problem because if you can make that system sound even better, you will surely have achieved something spectacular.

Kind Regards,

Keith

Again thanks so much for the kind words! It's been a very long journey to get to the gear I have now as this has been a passion since I was young. I'm mostly a 2 channel geek and the system is based on that but now serves double duty as HT. I do not intend to get into a debate about gear, $, Wilson Audio, cables etc but I will say my room sounds quite good

Another point that I forgot to include has to do with the configuration of seating in my room. As stated, it is mainly a 2 channel set up but for movies/tv we sit on couches that are not centered in the space. They are parallel and sit long ways off the side walls, roughly even with the l/r speaker (speakers toed in to center). This creates a quandary as to where the first position should be. I chose to use a spot centered between the couches toward the back of the room. This is a challenge because most of the seating is off axis or close to it and mic spots should not be off axis. In general, the speakers size, output, dispersion etc compensate for this but that is by ear and does not consider where to place a mic!
I do not think any of this impacts the odd measurements of the center but it may be part of why the overall outcome is not strong to my ears.
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post #36919 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Zactly, maybe your post here was misleading?
"Your centre speaker *stand* costs more than my centre speaker It must sound truly awesome"

I take your point there - that line you quote is a bit of a non-sequitur. I was commenting on the price and then on the sound - it wasn’t meant to come across as a post-hoc argument but it did for which I apologise - sloppy English. I wasn't really meaning that simply because it is so expensive it must automatically sound good. From what I have read of the Wilson Maxx and the Watch, and the reviews I've read, and the awards they've won and the fact that many Hollywood studios apparently use them, my remarks were really made on how I imagine they sound rather than the fact they cost a huge amount of money.

IOW, I wasn't really meaning that simply because of their enormous price they must sound good, but rather that from what I have read about them, they must sound good.

Have you heard these speakers, properly set up in a decent room? If you haven't then I guess you're no more qualified to say they sound no better than much cheaper units than I am to say the converse. IOW, it's just speculation on your part, and indeed on mine.

I'd still swap them for mine

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #36920 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by scraps@midnight View Post

Again thanks so much for the kind words! It's been a very long journey to get to the gear I have now as this has been a passion since I was young. I'm mostly a 2 channel geek and the system is based on that but now serves double duty as HT. I do not intend to get into a debate about gear, $, Wilson Audio, cables etc but I will say my room sounds quite good

Another point that I forgot to include has to do with the configuration of seating in my room. As stated, it is mainly a 2 channel set up but for movies/tv we sit on couches that are not centered in the space. They are parallel and sit long ways off the side walls, roughly even with the l/r speaker (speakers toed in to center). This creates a quandary as to where the first position should be. I chose to use a spot centered between the couches toward the back of the room. This is a challenge because most of the seating is off axis or close to it and mic spots should not be off axis. In general, the speakers size, output, dispersion etc compensate for this but that is by ear and does not consider where to place a mic!
I do not think any of this impacts the odd measurements of the center but it may be part of why the overall outcome is not strong to my ears.

Have you tried a totally different mic setup, just to see the difference it might make? For example, have you tried taking the first position (the most important one) with the mic exactly where *you* usually sit, at ear height? This may not optimise the best for the whole room and the other listeners but it might give some insight into this 100Hz centre speaker XO business. Just a thought.

Kind Regards,

Keith
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post #36921 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I take your point there but from what I have read of the Wilson Maxx and the Watch, and the reviews I've read, and the awards they've won and the fact that many Hollywood studios apparently use them, my remarks were really made on how I imagine they sound rather than the fact they cost a huge amount of money. I've never heard them of course, as you probably haven't, so it's all guesswork really. I'd still swap them for mine

Kind Regards,

Keith

In either case their marketing is way better than their speakers

Markus

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post #36922 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by scraps@midnight View Post

Another point that I forgot to include has to do with the configuration of seating in my room. As stated, it is mainly a 2 channel set up but for movies/tv we sit on couches that are not centered in the space. They are parallel and sit long ways off the side walls, roughly even with the l/r speaker (speakers toed in to center).

Are you saying you turn your head to one side to see the display?
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post #36923 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 07:13 AM
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Are you saying you turn your head to one side to see the display?

Not really. We sit long ways on the couch's leaning against the back side cushion. I suppose if we sat on the couch normally vs laying long ways then yes, you would have to turn your head to the display.
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post #36924 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Have you tried a totally different mic setup, just to see the difference it might make? For example, have you tried taking the first position (the most important one) with the mic exactly where *you* usually sit, at ear height? This may not optimise the best for the whole room and the other listeners but it might give some insight into this 100Hz centre speaker XO business. Just a thought.

Kind Regards,

Keith

Yes. I think I am going to try running one with the mic positions creating a U around the end of the couch and back. Hard to explain but if you drew a line from one arm of the couch to the other couch then continued that line around the back corner and about 1/4 way down the back side of the couch. That would create a U, sort of a bubble which en composes the 2 main potions. Problem is some will be off axis. I think I did try this before and it may be the best way to get both seats recognized properly. First position will have to be in the center as I have been doing.
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post #36925 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 07:22 AM
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In either case their marketing is way better than their speakers

Have you actually had the chance to listen to them then? I have edited my earlier post so you can see that I have not.

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Keith
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post #36926 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 07:41 AM
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Yes. I think I am going to try running one with the mic positions creating a U around the end of the couch and back. Hard to explain but if you drew a line from one arm of the couch to the other couch then continued that line around the back corner and about 1/4 way down the back side of the couch. That would create a U, sort of a bubble which en composes the 2 main potions. Problem is some will be off axis. I think I did try this before and it may be the best way to get both seats recognized properly. First position will have to be in the center as I have been doing.

Hi scraps, according to the specs of your Wilson Watch center speaker it has a feature called Phase Delay Correction for it's tweeter.

http://www.wilsonaudio.com.au/watch.htm

Can you disable or bypass this feature before running Audyssey? Or set it to 0, just like setting the same phase knob on our subs to 0 before running Audyssey. Dunno, but this feature might make some unwanted issues during set-up.
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post #36927 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 07:47 AM
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Hi scraps, according to the specs of your Wilson Watch center speaker it has a feature called Phase Delay Correction for it's tweeter.

http://www.wilsonaudio.com.au/watch.htm

Can you disable or bypass this feature before running Audyssey? Or set it to 0, just like setting the same phase knob on our subs to 0 before running Audyssey. Dunno, but this feature might make some unwanted issues during set-up.

This feature is basically a method of moving the tweeter back or forward so it is not something that can be disabled. It relates to a distance and hieght chart to set the arrival of tweeter information. I did mess around with moving it back and forward to see if it changed the measurments and it did not do too much. This was actually the first thing I thought of that could be an issue as it seemed maybe too much hihg end was getting to the mic and the low end was not. Unfortunatly, it did not correct it
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post #36928 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 08:00 AM
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Have you actually had the chance to listen to them then? I have edited my earlier post so you can see that I have not.

Kind Regards,

Keith

No, I don't need to listen to them. Have you seen this? Looks like an accident to me. Other speakers perform much better, even a cheap Behringer. You can even keep your children

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #36929 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 08:35 AM
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No, I don't need to listen to them. Have you seen this? Looks like an accident to me. Other speakers perform much better, even a cheap Behringer. You can even keep your children

Markus those speakers you are scrutinizing the measurements of sound extraordinary. If you ever have an opportunity to give them a listen I highly recommend it. I'd guess you'd enjoy the experience.
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post #36930 of 71855 Old 02-24-2011, 08:48 AM
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Markus those speakers you are scrutinizing the measurements of sound extraordinary.

I have no doubt about that

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If you ever have an opportunity to give them a listen I highly recommend it. I'd guess you'd enjoy the experience.

Is this an invitation? You're talking about the Wilson's, right?

Markus

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