Originally Posted by markus767
Asking what is shown in certain graphs is "challenging someone"?
Hi Markus. This seems to have got out of hand and I wish I hadn't posted those graphs now. I am well aware of the value of measuring and, in my own limited way, I use the tools at my disposal, which are Audyssey MultEQ XT, my SVS AS-EQ1 and the mics and mic stand, positioned in defined places - and my ears. MultEQ XT doesn't produce any graphs, or indeed any evidence at all in my Onkyo that it has done anything beneficial to the sound. But my ears tell me that there has indeed been a substantial benefit. Similarly, the EQ1 makes a huge and immediately noticeable improvement to the bass in my room, and it produces some sort of graph to support that. Forgive me if I don't undertake substantial additional measurements but I have neither the time nor the inclination to do so. The sole reason I put those graphs on here was, as I said at the time, because they seemed interesting. There was no Damascene conversion or revelation. I made no recommendations that everyone should move their subs apart by 2 inches and in fact I even said that I had not had any time to even listen thoroughly to the resulting bass in my room. I simply thought that it was interesting that the graphs showed such a difference despite such a small change in sub positions. FWIW, I doubt if I will hear a great deal of difference when I do listen seriously.
But, as Tom Hilton expressed with such superb eloquence in his long, thoughtful and considered response, it is - to me at least - fundamentally nonsensical to disregard the value of the human ear in evaluating what one hears in one's own listening room.
I would never presume to tell you how to spend your time, on your system in your home, and I would simply ask that you respect the same consideration when it comes to my time, my system and my home. You may want to sit measuring everything to the nth degree, but I don't. I am sure that many others on these forums feel the same way as I do. We use the tools at our disposal in the way we want to and we make the final judgement as to whether it is good or bad by using our ears. You mock these ears as "not being measuring instruments" but your mockery is groundless because our ears were never meant to be measuring instruments. They are the interface our brain uses in order to make sense of (and derive pleasure from) acoustical information that is present in our environment. As such, they are almost infinitely sophisticated. Again, as Tom put it so well, no measuring instrument in all of time has listened to something and derived pleasure from it. But if you prefer to measure, measure and measure some more before you can enjoy a movie or an opera or a jazz concert, that is your right and I support your right wholeheartedly. I just ask the same consideration in return. Please, Markus, don't pounce on me like you're Tom and I am Jerry, just sticking a whisker harmlessly out of my mousehole. A little lubrication works far more wonders than a ton of abrasion you know.
To be honest, my main passion isn't 'sound' or 'home theatre'. It's Movies. I watch hundreds of movies a year and derive huge pleasure from doing so. My interest in HT is there for one reason alone: to enable me to make the best of the movies in my own modest HT. Yes, I want to get as close as I can to what the director and sound mixer intended. I want the cinematography to be represented as closely as possible on my own screen as it was on theirs. I want the sound to be as close as I can to what the mixer heard. I want this, not because I care very much about sound or vision as such but because the closer I get to the original intentions of the creators, the greater the emotional impact on me. When that small, frightened 12 year old boy is spying on his father in Road To Perdition, and the brutal murder happens right in front of his eyes, I want my system to take me there - to put me in the place of that 12 year old boy. I want to feel his reactions and his fear. The violent, visceral impact of the gunshots is essential to that. But really, I could care less if there is a 2dB roll off at 8kHz that should be flat. How would I know what those gunshots sound like in real life? Why would I care, so long as the emotional content of the movie is maintained. When, to take another Tom Hanks movie as an example, he is leading the assault on the French beaches in Saving Private Ryan, I want to be there with him. I want the explosions to be deafening. I want to feel the bomb blasts. I want to be scared as bullets whizz from behind me, over my head. I want to instinctively duck as a mortar round explodes in front of me. In other words, I want to be there with Hanks and his men, experiencing something like the emotions they are experiencing. That, to me, is the be-all and end-all of my interest in the technology that makes it possible.
I am not an expert in any aspects of home cinema. What little I have learned has been thanks to the endless help of people on these forums and in this thread in particular. It restores my jaded faith in humanity that people will so selflessly give so much of their time and expertise to help others. I am staggered and in awe when I see people who have posted well over 10 or even 15 thousand times. In my own way, I try to put something back, when I can, by passing on what I have learned to others. If I make a mistake, as I am bound to, I apologise, correct it and try to learn. I am here to learn not to be lectured at.
To everyone who hoped that this particular discussion had faded away, I apologise for resurrecting it with this post, but promise you it will be my last word on the subject