"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 141 - AVS Forum
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post #4201 of 71860 Old 05-28-2008, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guapote View Post

Hi Chris, well a few more hours put into this and no change in the results. At last nights get together Magnolia was kind enough to loan me a different amp to try out. It was a primare. Long story short with that amp running either a single wire to the various speakers or biwired (I tried both). The results were the same. All the speakers in the room measure the xover a 200HZ (except the mists which have continualy measured at either 90HZ or 100HZ on each of the now 12 or so tests I have run). Magnolia is sending out someone (hopefully today or tomorrow I have not heard back from them yet this morning). At this point I am very interested to see what the issue turns out to be. I really have no clue. Let me know what you think.

Thanks Mel

Mel,

As HDTVChallenged mentioned, this could be an issue with the mic (or more likely the cable). If there is a bad solder joint it could be adding a capacitance to the path that would show up as a high pass filter. Trying another mic would definitely be worth it.

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post #4202 of 71860 Old 05-28-2008, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Mel,

As HDTVChallenged mentioned, this could be an issue with the Mic (or more likely the cable). If there is a bad solder joint it could be adding a capacitance to the path that would show up as a high pass filter. Trying another Mic would definitely be worth it.

Chris

Hi Chris, I guess I could ask Magnolia for another Mic tomorrow. How could it be the Mic if it is able to correctly set the xover for the mists at 90HZ and not the others? Paul Magee (the sales manager at the Roosevelt store) has just about every tech he has trying to figure out this issue. It will be interesting to see what it turns out to be. In the meantime I am using the piece in the bypass mode (called pure direct by Denon) for analog material and with out the eq for digital. The sonics are very good and I am sure they will be terrific for digital once this issue is sorted out. Again thanks for your help.

Mel
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post #4203 of 71860 Old 05-29-2008, 12:39 AM
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Greetings all. Looks like my question got missed. Might try again...

I'm looking to upgrade my pre-pro, but the current favourite - the NAD T175 - doesn't feature Dynamic EQ.

Can those who've heard Dynamic EQ please help... what sort of improvement does it really make?

I listen at below-reference levels. (My guide is that the dialogue is around the same volume as a person talking in the room.)
It's a fairly small, 4x4.5 metre room in an apartment that's reasonably well padded out, but isn't quite as "dead" as it could be.

Thanks in advance!

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post #4204 of 71860 Old 05-29-2008, 06:22 AM
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Kal Rubinson has stated before that The Audyssey Pro implementation is very dependent on the number of filters and processing power/memory of the AVP/Reciever. How does the Denon AVP compare to the Interga and NAD AVP's, other Denon Pro implementations and to the Audyssey stand alone Pro unit?
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post #4205 of 71860 Old 05-29-2008, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post

Kal Rubinson has stated before that The Audyssey Pro implementation is very dependent on the number of filters and processing power/memory of the AVP/Reciever. How does the Denon AVP compare to the Interga and NAD AVP's, other Denon Pro implementations and to the Audyssey stand alone Pro unit?

I doubt that this is what Kal said. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever in the core algorithm of MultEQ in all products. There are some interface differences and choices of target curves that may be slightly different, but the main code is identical for all products in the same category (MultEQ XT, MultEQ, 2EQ).

Similarly, there is no difference whatsoever in the MultEQ Pro software that runs on all these products. It is identical.

Finally, the stand-alone Sound Equalizer box has twice the filter resolution than all other MultEQ XT products. This is because it doesn't have to share DSP resources with other algorithms as is the case in receivers and pre-pros.

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post #4206 of 71860 Old 05-29-2008, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I doubt that this is what Kal said. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever in the core algorithm of MultEQ in all products. There are some interface differences and choices of target curves that may be slightly different, but the main code is identical for all products in the same category (MultEQ XT, MultEQ, 2EQ).

Right. What I did say, or try to say, is that there are differences among devices in how much DSP resources they devote to Audyssey. Now, I only said that because I believe I got that information from you and I must defer to you on these matters.

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post #4207 of 71860 Old 05-29-2008, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Right. What I did say, or try to say, is that there are differences among devices in how much DSP resources they devote to Audyssey. Now, I only said that because I believe I got that information from you and I must defer to you on these matters.

OK, now I understand the issue. Yes, there are different versions of MultEQ that were created to fit within the available DSP resources. They are called MultEQ XT, MultEQ, and 2EQ in decreasing order of resolution. So, a product with 2EQ will not perform the same as one with MultEQ XT. However, all products with MultEQ XT will perform identically to each other in terms of room correction.

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post #4208 of 71860 Old 05-29-2008, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

OK, now I understand the issue. Yes, there are different versions of MultEQ that were created to fit within the available DSP resources. They are called MultEQ XT, MultEQ, and 2EQ in decreasing order of resolution. So, a product with 2EQ will not perform the same as one with MultEQ XT. However, all products with MultEQ XT will perform identically to each other in terms of room correction.

Chris

And I suppose Dynamic EQ is separate again?
So a product with MultiEQ XT won't automatically have Dynamic EQ inbuilt?
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post #4209 of 71860 Old 05-29-2008, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post

And I suppose Dynamic EQ is separate again?
So a product with MultiEQ XT won't automatically have Dynamic EQ inbuilt?

That's correct. Dynamic EQ is a different technology that addresses the problem of loudness perception as the volume changes. Products that have it will have a Dynamic EQ logo.

Chris

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post #4210 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKR1963 View Post

Does anyone here know if Audyssey Dynamic Volume can be added to an existing unit (Denon AVR-3808CI) via a firmware update. I need to know if this is possible.

I'm thinking of buying the Onkyo 805. Chris, can the Onkyo 805 be upgraded to Dynamic Volume?
Thanks for any replies.
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post #4211 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tocaje View Post

I'm thinking of buying the Onkyo 805. Chris, can the Onkyo 805 be upgraded to Dynamic Volume?
Thanks for any replies.

Onkyo has not announced any plans to offer this as an upgrade.

Chris

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post #4212 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

That's correct. Dynamic EQ is a different technology that addresses the problem of loudness perception as the volume changes. Products that have it will have a Dynamic EQ logo.

Chris


Chris,
is that like Dolby's "night time" setting? Will the price of equalization be loss sound quality?

Finally I think I saw your name in the press when Denon announced 9 or 10 new AVRs (under $1000). That many in the same price point...what were they thinking?

Thanks,
Hansang
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post #4213 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hansangb View Post

Chris,
is that like Dolby's "night time" setting? Will the price of equalization be loss sound quality?

No, it has nothing to do with Night Time (DRC). Also, Dynamic Volume has nothing to do with equalization. There is information on our website about how we developed this and what it does. It is based on a long study involving professional mixers and how they "remastered" the content to maintain a given dynamic range. We created a model that mimics their actions and can react with the proper time constant to avoid the common issue with standard compressors: pumping. Also, Dynamic Volume includes Dynamic EQ so that when the volume is turned down there is no loss of loudness perception. DRC/Night mode do not have loudness compensation.

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post #4214 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 11:22 AM
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Cris,

"However, all products with MultEQ XT will perform identically to each other in terms of room correction."

Now I'm confused. I thought you said earlier that even w/the same MultEQ s/w, results could differ because less hardware DSP available meant less filters and correcting power.

Noah
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post #4215 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 11:23 AM
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If Audyssey detects and sets my front three speakers to Full Range, can I manually change them to small without over ridding everything Audyssey did? Thanks
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post #4216 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Cris,

"However, all products with MultEQ XT will perform identically to each other in terms of room correction."

Now I'm confused. I thought you said earlier that even w/the same MultEQ s/w, results could differ because less hardware DSP available meant less filters and correcting power.

Hi Noah,

Nope. Never said that. The only device that offers a higher resolution MultEQ XT is the Audyssey Sound Equalizer. The reason is that we get to use the entire DSP chip. All receivers and pre-pros that have the MultEQ XT logo perform identically. Similarly, all receivers and pre-pros that have the MultEQ logo perform identically to each other (but not the same as MultEQ XT).

The resolution differences are here:
http://www.audyssey.com/technology/multEQ_products.html

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post #4217 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSlade View Post

If Audyssey detects and sets my front three speakers to Full Range, can I manually change them to small without over ridding everything Audyssey did? Thanks

You can and you should.

Chris

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post #4218 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 11:37 AM
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Chris,

Since its usually commercials that play so loud maybe you can figure out a way to stop them from playing? Now THAT would be something....

I'm looking forward to how Denon is going to respond to Onkyo's release of additional "features" for your software. Then how Onkyo will respond to Denon. Competition is great for us end users....

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #4219 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

OK, now I understand the issue. Yes, there are different versions of MultEQ that were created to fit within the available DSP resources. They are called MultEQ XT, MultEQ, and 2EQ in decreasing order of resolution. So, a product with 2EQ will not perform the same as one with MultEQ XT. However, all products with MultEQ XT will perform identically to each other in terms of room correction.

Chris

Thanks for the clarification. One more question on this around the Pro install.
Does this just provide more sampeling points or is there increased resolution by offloading processing to the PC.
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post #4220 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 12:11 PM
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OK, thanks for the clarification, Chris.

Noah
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post #4221 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSlade View Post

If Audyssey detects and sets my front three speakers to Full Range, can I manually change them to small without over ridding everything Audyssey did? Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

You can and you should.

Chris

If you are not running a sub woofer, it is my understanding you can not change this with 2EQ. Am I correct, Chris?
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post #4222 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 12:19 PM
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Chris -

My questions concerns the channel graphs MultEQ Pro software creates on the customer certificate after optimizing a room. As I understand, the "Before" graphs indicate Audyssey's measured room response but the "After" graph is Audyssey's prediction of the room's corrected response. Can you discuss how accurate the After graph's are when compared to the actual measured response of a room after Audyssey correction? Wouldn't there be circumstances when a corrected room's response won't equal Audyssey's predicted response?

Also, on the graphs, can you please describe the delineations of the grid lines? I'm assuming the vertical lines indicate frequencies, starting at 20 Hz (left) and ending at 20 KHz (right), plotted in a logarithmic scale. Is this correct? What is the step value for each of the horizontal lines indicating amplitude?

Thanks,

Andre'
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post #4223 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

You can and you should.

Chris

Thanks Chris!
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post #4224 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Chris,

Since its usually commercials that play so loud maybe you can figure out a way to stop them from playing? Now THAT would be something....

I'm looking forward to how Denon is going to respond to Onkyo's release of additional "features" for your software. Then how Onkyo will respond to Denon. Competition is great for us end users....


TWC had a huge problem with this on their HD channels. When SD commercial came on, you had to *dive* for the remote. I actually called to complain after reading a thread about it on AVS (what the real issues were) Now, it's much much better. I hardly run into these days.

Thanks,
Hansang
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post #4225 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 01:03 PM
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OK Folks, here is my latest crazy question:
Can Audyssey 2EQ give any kind of performance ehancement to a "Quadraphonic" type Audio setup?

Here is what I am thinking about -
I have 4 sats and a sub, which I have repurposed for audio in my dining room; which I have mounted the speakers on the walls up near the ceiling corners. I have an oval table, which seats 6, and sits smack in the center of the 13x16 room.

I can get an Onkyo 575 AVR, which has the 2EQ feature, on clearance for only ~$230. So I have a few questions:
1) Is the 2EQ for movie 5.1/7.1 listening only, or could it be used for 4-channel audio as described above?
2) If I use "All Channel Stereo", does the 2EQ get shut-off?
3) Since the 2EQ has fewer measurement positions (3 I think?), is it not ideal for the six seating positions around the oval?

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

I've got some stuff.
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post #4226 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMAR10 View Post

If you are not running a sub woofer, it is my understanding you can not change this with 2EQ. Am I correct, Chris?


Large and Small has nothing to do with 2EQ or MultEQ. It is the designation used by the receiver manufacturers to indicate if the bass from your speakers will be sent to the subwoofer (Small) or just play from the speakers (Large).

So, if you don't have a subwoofer there is no such thing as Large and Small for the front two speakers. They can only be Large. However, most AVR makers have bass management systems that allow you to set your other speakers (center and surrounds) to Small and then redirect their bass to the front two speakers.

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post #4227 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post

Thanks for the clarification. One more question on this around the Pro install.
Does this just provide more sampeling points or is there increased resolution by offloading processing to the PC.

The Pro install offers the following advantages;

1) The mic used by the installer is individually calibrated by serial number rather than the bulk calibration used in the consumer version of the mic. That makes the tolerance ±0.5 dB instead of ±2 dB relative to the industry-standard 1/4" calibration mic

2) You can measure more positions (up to 32) in the listening area for better sampling of the acoustical problems

3) You can select from more than one target curves

4) The crossover calculation is much more sophisticated because it looks at not only the -3 dB roll-off, but also scans several possible frequencies to find which one provides the best acoustical summation for each speaker and sub combination. This greatly reduces the crossover suckout problem

Chris

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post #4228 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Smith View Post

Chris -

My questions concerns the channel graphs MultEQ Pro software creates on the customer certificate after optimizing a room. As I understand, the "Before" graphs indicate Audyssey's measured room response but the "After" graph is Audyssey's prediction of the room's corrected response. Can you discuss how accurate the After graph's are when compared to the actual measured response of a room after Audyssey correction? Wouldn't there be circumstances when a corrected room's response won't equal Audyssey's predicted response?

Also, on the graphs, can you please describe the delineations of the grid lines? I'm assuming the vertical lines indicate frequencies, starting at 20 Hz (left) and ending at 20 KHz (right), plotted in a logarithmic scale. Is this correct? What is the step value for each of the horizontal lines indicating amplitude?

Thanks,

Andre'

Hi Andre,

The after graphs are created by applying the calculated MultEQ XT filter to the before response. So, if you were to measure the room in the exact same spots you used for calibration and combined the measurements using our combining algorithm you would get the exact same curve. Alternatively, if you used some off-the-shelf measurement software and a calibrated microphone and took a few measurements in the listening area and then averaged them you would get something very close. The graphs are intended to give you an indication of the improvement over the entire measured area.

The graph starts at 20 Hz and ends at 20 kHz on a log scale. The bold vertical lines are 100 Hz, 1000 Hz, and 10000 Hz. The horizontal steps are 5 dB per division.

Chris

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post #4229 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

4) The crossover calculation is much more sophisticated because it looks at not only the -3 dB roll-off, but also scans several possible frequencies to find which one provides the best acoustical summation for each speaker and sub combination. This greatly reduces the crossover suckout problem

Chris

Could you explain the crossover suckout problem? Is there a way that those without the Pro could minimize it on our systems?
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post #4230 of 71860 Old 05-30-2008, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

Could you explain the crossover suckout problem? Is there a way that those without the Pro could minimize it on our systems?

Chris,
Does the pro installation also adjust the treble and bass for each speaker? I believe the Onkyo 885 has this feature.

Matnick
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