"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1452 - AVS Forum
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post #43531 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliCool View Post

Thanks for the suggestion guys!

My Audyssey set my Center at -8 during my calibration... in fact, it did set it to -8 to -9 most of the time.

My FL and FR are set at -5... I tried last night setting my Center to something like -3 and I can clearly hear the dialogue... no problems.

Setting it at -7 to -8 as Audyssey suggested though will make the dialogue really soft.

Pictures to follow... right now it's a mess!

Please note, in general, center speakers are more sensitive in the same speaker family than LRs and surrounds, due to the fact that centers usually have double woofers built in resulting in a 3-4 dB higher sensitivity than all other single woofer boxes. That's why Audysey had to turn down the center trim, i.e. in your case to -8 or -9 dB while LRs are at -5 dB as you reported, provided all speakers are arranged on a circle around MLP (and you have single woofer LRs and surrounds). I would leave it like that until your pictures arrive.

Cheers, Feri


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post #43532 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

... I have three main sources of programs with LFE content. Movies, music, and TV...
2) Music. OMG, what a state of affairs. Forget about LFE bandwidth, we cannot even get agreement on whether the LFE should be +10 dB or not. And then we have mixers who just copy some bass from the mains into the LFE, or who monitor with a filtered sub but no filter in the recorder. One thing we have going for us is these 5.1 discs also have a stereo version of the mix. That’s at least a hint at how the bass was intended to sound. I have tried several with the LFE filter at Off, 120 Hz, and 80 Hz, and to me, 80 Hz always wins. And for most SACDs and some DVD-As, don't forget to set the LFE mix ratio to be 10 dB less than for movies. I put a post-it on each box to remind me...

As a result, I set the LFE filter to 80 Hz and thar she stays. YMMV. Maybe I am missing something important or intended @ 116 Hz, but I'll never know. What I do know is I am not missing being annoyed by unjustified or unintended bass content.

Thanks for another considered, clear and detailed post which adds to our HT tweaking knowledge base. I had previously dismissed the LFE level adjustment as meaningful to those sending analog out of their players. It surprised me to find the LFE level too high when using HDMI, such as playing a DVDA. This became evident to me while comparing the MC and stereo mixes on DVDA recordings of Steely Dan's "Everything Must Go", "Two Against Nature" and "Gaucho", These are 3 of my favorite reference MC discs, produced with great care, well recorded and mixed (see here). But I found the electric bass/kickdrum bloated on the 5.1 mix, unless I adjusted the LFE level in my Denon A100 to -10 and lowered the LFE LPF from 120 to 80.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #43533 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Just a guess here, with my usual cynical take, that "choices" were made to go bigger, i.e. more impressive, with the DSX effect as opposed to more subtle ... for marketing reasons.

I don't think they were trying to make it sound more impressive for marketing reasons. I think Audyssey genuinely believes that listeners would prefer hearing proscenium reflections, hence adding them in. The fact that they are more noticeable than extracted out-of-phase info from the surround channels (PLIIz) is just the nature of the processing.

Sanjay
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post #43534 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

It surprised me to find the LFE level too high when using HDMI, such as playing a DVDA. This became evident to me while comparing the MC and stereo mixes on DVDA recordings of Steely Dan's "Everything Must Go", "Two Against Nature" and "Gaucho", These are 3 of my favorite reference MC discs, produced with great care, well recorded and mixed

It was some years ago when last I tried this, but take the DVD-A of "Two Against Nature," and connect the analog Sub/LFE output of your 5.1 BD/DVD-A player to some unused analog input (L or R or Y-split into both) of your processor. Make sure bass management is off in the disc player -- you want to hear the LFE track in isolation, but from a wideband playback system. IIRC, it has quite a a lot of content at higher frequencies, sounding like an open mic somewhere in the room. Not sure which track(s) it happened on, though.

Roger

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post #43535 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It will be interesting, if Roger comments, to see if there is any scientific basis for what SB and I are hearing.

There is a basis for the differences you hear between DSX height and PLIIz. It breaks down to this:

1) Derivation of height signals: In DSX, it comes from L/R channels, which are active virtually all the time. In PLIIz, the signals are derived from the surrounds, which come and go, and are often silent.

2) Treatment of the height signals: DSX runs them through room reflection modeling to create early reflections. PLIIz does none of that.

3) Treatment of surround signals: DSX decorrelates the surrounds and drops their level some 3 dB. Not sure if these are related--in that maybe the decorrelation processing needs a few dB headroom, but if that were the case, it should have been compensated downstream, so we have to conclude it is intentional. PLIIz does not do any of this to the surrounds.

Taken together, the results you report are quite understandable.

When I mentioned about the DSX wides adding 4-ish dB extra bass to L/R sounds using the Onkyo TX-NR1009, folks (maybe it was you!) in the Denon 4311 thread checked and reported no such boost at all, maybe a couple dB reduction if anything, which suggested that the AVR makers have some influence over the results beyond core Audyssey definitions. Maybe that is the case, too, with the surround -3 dB levels, but so far, the anecdotal evidence has not revealed that being in play. It's very easy to confirm, though. Take a test disc with steady noise in a surround channel. Play it with DSX and PLIIz on and off. Read results on SPL meter. That's how I confirmed it.

Some might opine that 3 dB difference is not much. In an absolute sense, that's right. But when we are talking about the balance across several speakers, it can make a huge difference in soundfield perception. Decorrelation plays a further role in perception especially of transients. Not sure why it is imposed in DSX. If I had to guess, it would be that it helps better blend the surrounds with the DSX-processed front channels, which now have a layer of added "stuff" in the name of expanded spatial impression (but which brings along a dose of decorrelation). The native surrounds perhaps sounded too pointed in contrast, so decorrelating them makes them sound more like the fronts. But all of this comes at some price in detail preservation.

Roger

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post #43536 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 12:37 PM
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Here are the pictures...

Shot of the TV, fronts, and center.







Shot of the coffee table.



Believe me... It's not that cluttered there. I usually just leave the remotes and one PS3 controller so most of the time it's clean.

The Main Listening Position.



Right side of the Main Listening Position.



The left side's leading to my bed, PC, Ref. The room in total is 7m x 4.5m.

So thoughts guys? I'm just surprised that in games or music the dialogue has no problem... but in Blu Ray movies sometimes its too low. Used Iron Man, Black Swan, Inception for reference.
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post #43537 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

There is a basis for the differences you hear between DSX height and PLIIz.

Taken together, the results you report are quite understandable.

Roger, thank you so much for that explanation and the confirmation that I am hearing more or less what I ought to be hearing, once the science is added to the pot :! Much appreciated.

Kind Regards,

Keith


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post #43538 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliCool View Post

Here are the pictures...


So thoughts guys? I'm just surprised that in games or music the dialogue has no problem... but in Blu Ray movies sometimes its too low. Used Iron Man, Black Swan, Inception for reference.

Hi, first off, as I mentioned in a previous post, we need to set up your system to film reference. Your photos show that the center is placed quite low, moreover there is a glass top () coffee table in between the center speaker and the MLP (at seated ear height) which can easily be "responsible" for unwanted reflections in the path of sound waves from speaker to ears causing unpredictable trouble for dialog intelligibility.

So, in order to improve dialog intelligibility (for movies) I would do the followings:

1. Find a way to place the center speaker above the TV set, but in close proximity to the top of the TV and tilt the center to face MLP. Speakers always deliver widest frequency range when they are on-axis, that is face-to-face.

2. Put a textile table cloth on the coffee table (and leave it there) in order to tame unwanted reflections off the glass top that can easily through off not just the sound quality, but Audyssey also. Any room by itself can be reflective enough in the mid and high frquency range, no need to enhance that unwanted character.

3. Re-run Audyssey and watch a film and listen carefully.

P.S. Room on the photos to me doesn't look like 7 meters X 4.5 meters = 31.5 square meters, but less.

Cheers, Feri


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post #43539 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliCool View Post

Here are the pictures...


So thoughts guys? I'm just surprised that in games or music the dialogue has no problem... but in Blu Ray movies sometimes its too low. Used Iron Man, Black Swan, Inception for reference.

The room seems quite 'lively' with that hard floor and a general lack of soft furnishings. Also the coffee table is glass and you say is usually not cluttered, so that could also be causing some reflections that are adding to the dialogue problems you are experiencing. A carpet over the whole floor and drapes instead of the blinds would make a big difference, as, of course, would some treatments to the walls.

I also notice that your L&R speakers are way higher than your centre speaker and that isn't the best idea - it would be better if you could lower the L&R speakers so they are more in line with the C speaker. Angle them towards the MLP so that the tweeters are pointed at your ears. If your surround speakers are on the same stands as your L&R it seems that they (the L&R) are going to be way above ear level when you are sitting in the couch. Ideally, the tweeters of the L&R speakers should be more or less at ear height when you are sitting in your usual position. The way things are at the moment, you might notice that pans from left to right are not as they should be because of the big difference in the heights of the L&R and centre speakers. This may also account for the differences in the Audyssey calibration.

Feri makes a good point in that the C speaker may be more efficient than the L&R speakers - do you have the specs for them both in terns of dB level at 1 metre for 1 watt? But regardless of that, dialogue should still be intelligible without requiring a 5dB increase over what Audyssey is finding.

Thanks for the pictures BTW - they are very helpful. The room is the most significant component in an audio system and I think that yours has substantial room for improvement in terms of taming the reflections and speaker positioning. I'd definitely try the room without that coffee table and if you could temporarily introduce some damping materials and then re-run Audyssey and see what differences it makes, that would be great. I'm thinking maybe some temporary drapes and floor coverings - if you can borrow some rugs for example to put on the floor and hang over the windows. I know it sounds ridiculous but it's just temporary to see what difference it makes. If the difference is substantial - as I suspect it will be - then it will give you a pointer towards where to go next with the room.

The way things stand at the moment, my first feeling would be to concentrate on the room rather than anything else.

Kind Regards,

Keith


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post #43540 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


...moreover there is a glass top () coffee table in between the center speaker and the MLP (at seated ear height) which can easily be "responsible" for unwanted reflections in the path of sound waves from speaker to ears causing unpredictable trouble for dialog intelligibility.

Hi Feri - yes, I think the coffee table is a potential issue, and also the general 'liveliness' of the room as it stands. More drapes, more soft furnishings, more carpet, some books on bookshelves etc etc would all help. Do you remember FilmMixer in this or another thread being asked to comment on dialogue intelligibility and he said that the number one culprit was room reflections?

Kind Regards,

Keith


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post #43541 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Feri - yes, I think the coffee table is a potential issue, and also the general 'liveliness' of the room as it stands. More drapes, more soft furnishings, more carpet, some books on bookshelves etc etc would all help. Do you remember FilmMixer in this or another thread being asked to comment on dialogue intelligibility and he said that the number one culprit was room reflections?

Kind Regards,

Keith

Yeah, I remember Keith, ...room reflections are enemy #1 when it comes to troubleshooting anomalies of our ambient in the mid and high frequency range where dialog intelligibility is affected, yet can be quite easily taken care of. The goal is not to make an anechoic chamber, but a room "dumbed down" (so to speak) that will allow Audyssey to take care of the rest.

I remember a post with photos where a guy had a room with plain walls, glass windows without curtains, no rugs, a glass coffee table and leather setup. Someone commented: "Now, that is a challange for Audyssey!"

Take care!

Cheers, Feri


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post #43542 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

It was some years ago when last I tried this, but take the DVD-A of "Two Against Nature," and connect the analog Sub/LFE output of your 5.1 BD/DVD-A player to some unused analog input (L or R or Y-split into both) of your processor. Make sure bass management is off in the disc player -- you want to hear the LFE track in isolation, but from a wideband playback system. IIRC, it has quite a a lot of content at higher frequencies, sounding like an open mic somewhere in the room. Not sure which track(s) it happened on, though.

What a cool trick and very revealing. You can hear every detail of the bass guitar, including prominant string squeak sounds. But as you say, several of the tracks have drum sounds in additon to the kick or toms, including snare and high hat WAY over 120Hz in the LFE!

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #43543 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 02:32 PM
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Thought I should chime in:

After silently following Keith and Roger's brief discussion regarding PLIIz vs. DSX I decided to test the two technologies in my room since I have been using DSX exclusively from the get go (per Keith's input a few weeks back). What I noticed pretty much confirms what Keith noticed: with DSX the height speakers are more noticeable, which at first creates a wow factor (much like walking by an LED TV set in torch mode). But once I tried PLIIz, the wow factor of DSX wore off. I noticed a more balanced field with PLIIz, not just in the front but in the surrounds also. Familiar 5.1 material (such as the jungles of Lost) felt more encompassing on all planes with PLIIz compared to DSX, mostly because DSX seemed to put too much emphasis on the front while lacking in the surrounds, which makes it harder to feel like I am running through the jungle with Jake and Kate. I also noticed that background music and obvious dialogue was no longer present in the height speakers when using PLIIz, again confirming DSX runs a little hot upfront.

Not a scientific review, but definitely liking PLIIz now. The question is, will Neo:X sound better then PLIIz when I finally get my DTR-70.3 this week? Hmm.....
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post #43544 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 02:49 PM
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Hello, I posted this in the sub forum, but thought maybe I should double check here and see if there is any more advice Audyssey experts can give me:

"I currently have an Integra DTC9.8 pre-amp and am using an Audyssey Pro calibration. I am using the balanced outs for my 7 speakers and standard rca out for my sub.

I am adding a sub that has a balanced input and keeping the original sub in the system.

My plan is to continue to use the rca out for my existing sub and using a balanced cable for my new sub, and then re-running the Audyssey Pro.

I would rather do that than add a y-adapter and split the sub signal between both.

Does anyone have any input on whether this would work the way I hope it will or if this may cause problems?

Thanks in advance.

Also neither sub has built-in calibration."


The advice from a seasoned subwoofer vet was to use a y connector to split the RCA sub out and then re-run the Audyssey pro calibration.

Thanks
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post #43545 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodshed View Post

Hello, I posted this in the sub forum, but thought maybe I should double check here and see if there is any more advice Audyssey experts can give me:

"I currently have an Integra DTC9.8 pre-amp and am using an Audyssey Pro calibration. I am using the balanced outs for my 7 speakers and standard rca out for my sub.

I am adding a sub that has a balanced input and keeping the original sub in the system.

My plan is to continue to use the rca out for my existing sub and using a balanced cable for my new sub, and then re-running the Audyssey Pro.

I would rather do that than add a y-adapter and split the sub signal between both.

Does anyone have any input on whether this would work the way I hope it will or if this may cause problems?

Thanks in advance.

Also neither sub has built-in calibration."


The advice from a seasoned subwoofer vet was to use a y connector to split the RCA sub out and then re-run the Audyssey pro calibration.

Thanks

Either way will work. Neither way provides a way to balance the output of the two subs to each other and you will have to do that yourself with a test signal and a SLM (or some other test/measurement system). You should set up each sub to output 75dB using their level controls. Then you can run Audyssey or AudysseyPro.

Kal Rubinson

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post #43546 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Either way will work. Neither way provides a way to balance the output of the two subs to each other and you will have to do that yourself with a test signal and a SLM (or some other test/measurement system). You should set up each sub to output 75dB using their level controls. Then you can run Audyssey or AudysseyPro.

Ok thanks!
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post #43547 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Thought I should chime in:

After silently following Keith and Roger's brief discussion regarding PLIIz vs. DSX I decided to test the two technologies in my room since I have been using DSX exclusively from the get go (per Keith's input a few weeks back). What I noticed pretty much confirms what Keith noticed: with DSX the height speakers are more noticeable, which at first creates a wow factor (much like walking by an LED TV set in torch mode). But once I tried PLIIz, the wow factor of DSX wore off. I noticed a more balanced field with PLIIz, not just in the front but in the surrounds also. Familiar 5.1 material (such as the jungles of Lost) felt more encompassing on all planes with PLIIz compared to DSX, mostly because DSX seemed to put too much emphasis on the front while lacking in the surrounds, which makes it harder to feel like I am running through the jungle with Jake and Kate. I also noticed that background music and obvious dialogue was no longer present in the height speakers when using PLIIz, again confirming DSX runs a little hot upfront.

Not a scientific review, but definitely liking PLIIz now. The question is, will Neo:X sound better then PLIIz when I finally get my DTR-70.3 this week? Hmm.....

Keith, BCJ, how is the move to PLIIz changing your experience with all the movies you were talking about where sounds would be above you (deck creaking in M&C), or that sounds would travel no only from front to back but had height elements in them too (gunshots in Saving PR)? Now that the sound is more refined than 'Wow', are these directional ques still in the Y and Z axii?

Raj
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post #43548 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 08:34 PM
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Guys, thanks so much for the advice! I'm now having an idea as to what to do with my set-up.

With regards to the room... It may look small but I'll follow it up with pictures if you want. I didn't take a picture of the bed, the computer area, the closet area, and the bathroom area because it will be irrelevant. After all, the sound stage I am creating is aimed toward the couch area only. Like I said, the total room is 7m x 4.5m.

So I will follow the advices here and will do the following.

1) Table cloth on the coffee table
2) Adjust the height of the speakers. The biggest challenge will be the center speaker. I fear that I'll have a hard time setting it above the TV. I tried sitting down in the couch right now and see if the left and right are way above ear level... It is above ear level, but not by a large margin. I do agree though with the panning shots.
3) Also see if I could improve the treatments in the room. Will acoustic panels help?
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post #43549 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi, first off, as I mentioned in a previous post, we need to set up your system to film reference. Your photos show that the center is placed quite low, moreover there is a glass top () coffee table in between the center speaker and the MLP (at seated ear height) which can easily be "responsible" for unwanted reflections in the path of sound waves from speaker to ears causing unpredictable trouble for dialog intelligibility.

So, in order to improve dialog intelligibility (for movies) I would do the followings:

1. Find a way to place the center speaker above the TV set, but in close proximity to the top of the TV and tilt the center to face MLP. Speakers always deliver widest frequency range when they are on-axis, that is face-to-face.

2. Put a textile table cloth on the coffee table (and leave it there) in order to tame unwanted reflections off the glass top that can easily through off not just the sound quality, but Audyssey also. Any room by itself can be reflective enough in the mid and high frquency range, no need to enhance that unwanted character.

3. Re-run Audyssey and watch a film and listen carefully.

P.S. Room on the photos to me doesn't look like 7 meters X 4.5 meters = 31.5 square meters, but less.

Oops.. I'm sorry. I meant 4.5 x 7 m... Not the other way around!
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post #43550 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 09:11 PM
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Keith, BCJ, how is the move to PLIIz changing your experience with all the movies you were talking about where sounds would be above you (deck creaking in M&C), or that sounds would travel no only from front to back but had height elements in them too (gunshots in Saving PR)? Now that the sound is more refined than 'Wow', are these directional ques still in the Y and Z axii?

With DSX, a lot of "filler" sounds coming from the height speakers are copies of sounds already playing from the Front L/R speakers (Roger explains it with more detail). So watching Monday Night Football the other day the crowd noise was audible from both my mains and my heights. Ambient jungle noises that would normally only be heard from the mains in a show like Lost are also audible from the heights. Music in the background of commercials/movie soundtracks are equally audible from the mains and heights. During the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan, gunshots which are normally reserved for just the mains are also audible from the heights even if they are just confined to the horizontal plane of the picture on screen. The more "direct" sounds one would expect from the height speakers (creaking planks in Master and Commander, gunshots from above in The Rock, helicopter blades swirling in Black Hawk Down) are also audible with DSX. The big downside I noticed from over activity of said "filler" sounds from the heights was a decreased presence of my surround speakers. Good example is a jungle scene of Lost: DSX makes the height speakers so noticeable that my attention is gravitated towards the front soundstage in a way that I completely lose the feeling of being enveloped in sound from the sides/back...I lose the sense of actually being in the thick of the jungle and instead feel like I am just "looking" at a jungle.

With PLIIz, however, the "filler" sounds described above are not audible: regular jungle noises found on the horizontal plane in Lost are only heard from the mains, the crowd noise during a football game come from just the mains, background music during commercials/movie soundtracks are only from the mains. This allows the surround speakers to blend well with my fronts and create envelopment again. "Direct" height sounds are still present and audible when called for with PLIIz: gunshots from above seem to "come" from the heights, creaks and footsteps are heard from "above" in Master and Commander, rain and wind swirling around in Twister comes from everywhere. With PLIIz, sounds are clearly audible from the heights only during scenes that call for said presence in a practical way/rational way...the heights don't "abuse" their power so to say.
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post #43551 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 09:39 PM
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The question is, will Neo:X sound better then PLIIz when I finally get my DTR-70.3 this week?

Are you using heights and wides or just heights?

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post #43552 of 72382 Old 09-17-2011, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

With DSX, a lot of "filler" sounds coming from the height speakers are copies of sounds already playing from the Front L/R speakers (Roger explains it with more detail). So watching Monday Night Football the other day the crowd noise was audible from both my mains and my heights. Ambient jungle noises that would normally only be heard from the mains in a show like Lost are also audible from the heights. Music in the background of commercials/movie soundtracks are equally audible from the mains and heights. During the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan, gunshots which are normally reserved for just the mains are also audible from the heights even if they are just confined to the horizontal plane of the picture on screen. The more "direct" sounds one would expect from the height speakers (creaking planks in Master and Commander, gunshots from above in The Rock, helicopter blades swirling in Black Hawk Down) are also audible with DSX. The big downside I noticed from over activity of said "filler" sounds from the heights was a decreased presence of my surround speakers. Good example is a jungle scene of Lost: DSX makes the height speakers so noticeable that my attention is gravitated towards the front soundstage in a way that I completely lose the feeling of being enveloped in sound from the sides/back...I lose the sense of actually being in the thick of the jungle and instead feel like I am just "looking" at a jungle.

With PLIIz, however, the "filler" sounds described above are not audible: regular jungle noises found on the horizontal plane in Lost are only heard from the mains, the crowd noise during a football game come from just the mains, background music during commercials/movie soundtracks are only from the mains. This allows the surround speakers to blend well with my fronts and create envelopment again. "Direct" height sounds are still present and audible when called for with PLIIz: gunshots from above seem to "come" from the heights, creaks and footsteps are heard from "above" in Master and Commander, rain and wind swirling around in Twister comes from everywhere. With PLIIz, sounds are clearly audible from the heights only during scenes that call for said presence in a practical way/rational way...the heights don't "abuse" their power so to say.

Wow, DSX is like the girl that was so beautiful when you brought her back from the bar, but when you wake up in the morning you realize she's a pig.

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post #43553 of 72382 Old 09-18-2011, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by CaliCool View Post

Here are the pictures...


Shot of the coffee table.



The left side's leading to my bed, PC, Ref. The room in total is 7m x 4.5m.

So thoughts guys? I'm just surprised that in games or music the dialogue has no problem... but in Blu Ray movies sometimes its too low. Used Iron Man, Black Swan, Inception for reference.

WOW - a very lively room. The advice given so far is excellent. I agree that the center +/- the L/R need to be raised/lowered to even things out a bit. All that glass on the coffee table and the TV stand are most likely causing some major reflections.

Also, it looks like the couch is back against the wall - this may be giving those seats heavier and boomier bass causing it hard to hear the dialogue. Can you move the couch forward a meter and bring to surrounds forward a bit also?

I suspect that games have better dialogue because they send more voices etc through the L/R speakers as well as the center (Just guessing).

I am curious - did you try dynamic volume? I agree with you that it is preferable not to use it, but my understanding is that it can sometimes help with dialogue intelligability when other sounds may be overpowering (a major oversimplification)

I think that if you follow the advice given about rearranging your speakers/room and then re-run audyssey you should be able to solve your problem.
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post #43554 of 72382 Old 09-18-2011, 01:24 AM
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Thanks for the advices, all of you.

Heavy b, you are brilliant. I will move the couch forward. My surrounds are set already on my sides so I don't see a problem there.

For the mean time. I did lower the FL and FR speakers... also moves them forward to be in line with the center.

Placed a table cloth on that coffee table. I have a coffee table outside and I think it's lower than what I have. May switch it to see if there are improvements.

Re-ran Audyssey and it suggested Center to -7db. (From the usual -8 or -9)

FL and FR both at -5. It got my woofer placement wrong now though.

Later when I get the house by myself I'll move the couch forward and see if it'll sound better. Will re-run Audyssey of course.
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post #43555 of 72382 Old 09-18-2011, 03:32 AM
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Hey everyone,

I'm typically more of a reader if not a lurker in these parts. but my recent experiences with Audyssey and the help this thread has provided warrant a "thank you all and you were right" post.

So thank you all for the great advice in here. As it turns out, even an automated system like Audyssey is heavily dependant upon user variables. And has arguably gotten more dependant as it became more powerful. All the posts saying it's not the size of the mic but the technique are spot on.

Having recently upgraded from an Onkyo 805 to a Denon 4311 and a dual sub configuration, the step up from XT to XT32 seemed to promise instant gratification. Faster, better, same mic routine. Bust out the old tripod and get crackin'. What could go wrong?

Believe me, I had all the bright sound and thin bass issues described in here. Multiple times. Until I questioned whether it was just bad sound I'd become accustomed to. Yes and no. I've always liked accurate bass over hot bass, used Behringers early to tame modes etc.. This wasn't bloated bass missing, it really was a bit emaciated in the middle and bright up top.

Perusing this thread had me buy a mic stand and check mic positions relative to speakers and especially reflective surfaces like seats. Ambient noise was taken into consideration (had a light emitting a high frequency noise). I also checked and measured subwoofer placement because Audyssey can only work with the acoustic foundation you provide. It's a powerful tool, but not a replacement for room acoustics. It almost felt like the more powerful XT32 was more sensitive to these issues compared to XT.

Bottom line: the sound is now incredible. Al harshness gone, bass not bloated, pure joy. But most importantly: very different from previous Audyssey runs just because of technique. To everyone still fiddling with this and unhappy with the sound: believe the good people in this thread. Use a mic stand, read the guides and watch for things you think are details (i.e. distance between mic and seating, coffee tables, line of sight, ambient noise). Don't dismiss things that sound like nitpicky details. Those details are no details and I'm writing this whole thing just to stress that point.

Thank you guys. XT32 you can buy, but the sound I have now is due to this thread telling me how to get the most out of it.
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post #43556 of 72382 Old 09-18-2011, 03:54 AM
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Thank you guys. XT32 you can buy, but the sound I have now is due to this thread telling me how to get the most out of it.

I think it's terrific when someone takes the time to write a post like that. And even more terrific that you eventually got such great sound! The amount of sheer knowledge in the AVS threads never ceases to amaze me - nor the generosity of the posters here who give so freely of their time and experience.

You are so right of course about those 'details'. They can sometimes sound like nit-picking, yet, as you (and I) have discovered, following the setup procedures to the letter is critical to eventual success and a good Audyssey calibration.

Kind Regards,

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post #43557 of 72382 Old 09-18-2011, 06:03 AM
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Hello fellas! And ladies?! Can anyone tell me the difference between the onkyo tx-nr808 and 809?! I'm going to use either or to power my Polk lsi series. Other than the obvious one is a newer model, is there any major difference between the two?! Both are certified 4ohm capable. I don't really have a use for the txnr1008. Don't intend on running 9 speakers lol. Unless I could find one at a heck of a deal! Thank you all in advance
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post #43558 of 72382 Old 09-18-2011, 06:19 AM
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Wow, DSX is like the girl that was so beautiful when you brought her back from the bar, but when you wake up in the morning you realize she's a pig.

Bahahaha!

I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to belittle DSX or say it doesn't do a good job...just the opposite really: it does too good of a job with the height speakers.
With height "specific" sounds (things we'd expect to hear from the heights) I've found no audible difference between DSX and PLIIz. The difference comes with non-specific cues/sounds: PLIIz doesn't play said sounds audibly through the heights while DSX does. The result is that during the other 90% of the movie/material the heights with DSX distract too much from the rest of the room, i.e. the surrounds/rear field mainly.

Tastes will obviously vary by room/user, but for me I now find PLIIz to be the better height mode for said reasons.
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Are you using heights and wides or just heights?

Just heights. My room does not permit wides.
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post #43560 of 72382 Old 09-18-2011, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dougler44 View Post

Hello fellas! And ladies?! Can anyone tell me the difference between the onkyo tx-nr808 and 809?! I'm going to use either or to power my Polk lsi series. Other than the obvious one is a newer model, is there any major difference between the two?! Both are certified 4ohm capable. I don't really have a use for the txnr1008. Don't intend on running 9 speakers lol. Unless I could find one at a heck of a deal! Thank you all in advance

I'd have thought you'd stand more chance of a response in one of the Onkyo threads?

Kind Regards,

Keith


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