"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 160 - AVS Forum
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post #4771 of 71792 Old 06-27-2008, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by enzo-ita View Post

Excellent!!!
I will certaily follow your pattern and I 'll report how it works.

You and this forum are invaluable.

Thanks a million.

ciao

+1000
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post #4772 of 71792 Old 06-28-2008, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Enzo,

You will get a more realistic picture of the peak if you take 5-6 measurements with your SPL meter at different locations. A single position measurement with a sine wave can be off by 10 dB...

..... Cutting the peak with the PEQ in the back of the sub (or with an external device) will end up with a big dip in some locations because the peak is not present everywhere. ......
Chris

I have to admit that I am one of those who likes to experiment things and learn from personal experience.

Today I tried to use the RTA moving the RS SPL Meter around the room.

The result was really estonishing: peaks changing to deeps and deeps changing to peaks moving the mic of some feet. This makes me understand it makes no sens to measure in one single position and then chasing after peaks using the onboard PEQ of the sub.

I used the REW software and the Pink Periodic Noise

I understand now there is no sense in measuring in this way. (I hear someone saying loud "it was about time!!!" )

Despite all what above, still in my seat I can tell that there is a peak, but at this point I also wonder if I was told to use the onboard PEQ of the sub because of an exgerated kindness or because it really helps MultEQ to do its job.

Ciao
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post #4773 of 71792 Old 06-28-2008, 05:46 AM
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Chris ...

I'm using a Pro in a bedroom. Seating is 14' from speakers, and room has 14' ceilings.

Here's the issue: we listen from the bed, which is against the back wall. By the time you get a backrest pillow in place our ears are around 18" or so from the back wall, and 12" or so away from a solid wood headboard.

Given the proximity to the back wall should I measure where our ears are, or, further forward?
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post #4774 of 71792 Old 06-28-2008, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo-ita View Post

I have to admit that I am one of those who likes to experiment things and learn from personal experience.

Today I tried to use the RTA moving the RS SPL Meter around the room.

The result was really estonishing: peaks changing to deeps and deeps changing to peaks moving the mic of some feet. This makes me understand it makes no sens to measure in one single position and then chasing after peaks using the onboard PEQ of the sub.

I used the REW software and the Pink Periodic Noise

I understand now there is no sense in measuring in this way. (I hear someone saying loud "it was about time!!!" )

Despite all what above, still in my seat I can tell that there is a peak, but at this point I also wonder if I was told to use the onboard PEQ of the sub because of an exgerated kindness or because it really helps MultEQ to do its job.

Ciao

I think this came up before and your particular situation would not (easily?) allow you to add acoustical treatments, . . . but bass traps would reduce peaks and deeps everywhere in your room.

The peaks and deeps are caused by the low frequencies bouncing off the walls, ceiling and floor and "meeting themselves" going the other direction. Depending on the phase, those frequencies either add together and cause a peak, or they subtract each other and cause a deep. You probably knew this already . . .
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post #4775 of 71792 Old 06-28-2008, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post

Chris ...

I'm using a Pro in a bedroom.

Bruce, this is really more information than we needed to know.


Quote:
Seating is 14' from speakers, and room has 14' ceilings.

Here's the issue: we listen from the bed, which is against the back wall. By the time you get a backrest pillow in place our ears are around 18" or so from the back wall, and 12" or so away from a solid wood headboard.

Given the proximity to the back wall should I measure where our ears are, or, further forward?

I would measure about 2' from the back wall and get the mic elevated a few inches above the headboard to avoid reflections (even if that puts it above your ears).

Chris

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post #4776 of 71792 Old 06-28-2008, 07:36 AM
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pepar,
thanks for your post.
I know about room treatment, and I may do some but it needs to be hidden I think I have some places where put the traps, but I do not know if these places can be used.
For instance I have a coffea table which is on the west wall of my drawing and it's volume below the table surface is totally hidden but open to air because the sofas are liflted about 8 inches from the floor.
I do not know if this is a good location, certainly will not be the perfect one, but I have to live with less then perfect things.......
I want to run MultEQ once again as Chris suggested me, before starting with treatments, and I going to do it right now.....

I'll be back in one hour...

ciao

EDIT
OK I did it.
Simply estonishing how Chris's formula cured the problem.

All the random thump are disappeared and the sub is shaking my sofa like never before even if tuned to 20Hz like I did after blowing two fuses while tuned to 12Hz.

Unfortunately it blown the fuses after I finished the latest setup so my next question is:

Do I need to redo the MultEQ setup because I changed the sub tuning?

I hope not. I am tired of doing it every other day....

ciao
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post #4777 of 71792 Old 06-28-2008, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo-ita View Post


Do I need to redo the MultEQ setup because I changed the sub tuning?

I hope not. I am tired of doing it every other day....

ciao

I know that changing the tuning on my sub does affect the subwoofer's output level and thus an adjustment is necessary.
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post #4778 of 71792 Old 06-28-2008, 01:59 PM
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Hi all. Thought I'd post my problem here and go straight to the source, so to speak:-)
I've got an Onkyo 606 and, for now, a two speaker set up. I ran the Audyssey set up and, as far as I can tell, it worked great. Everything sounds great. But I'm having a problem using Dynamic EQ, which I'm very keen to use. The problem is noticeable speaker hum whenever Dynamic EQ is enabled on Dolby digital sources - and only on Dolby digital sources. PCM sources work just fine. But for Dolby, there's a loud hum. If I turn off Dynamic EQ, the hum instantly disappears.
This is happening with two different components, an Oppo 971 DVD player and an old Xbox (which I use as a media center), both connected via digital optical cables.
There is no hum in the system otherwise: radio, listening to CDs, watching TV, etc, is fine. It's only when I try to use Dynamic EQ on Dolby sources.
Any idea what's going on here? Is the Dynamic EQ magnifying an existing problem or is it the problem? Should I redo the Audyssey set up and see if that helps?
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post #4779 of 71792 Old 06-28-2008, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeriousHorse View Post

Hi all. Thought I'd post my problem here and go straight to the source, so to speak:-)
I've got an Onkyo 606 and, for now, a two speaker set up. I ran the Audyssey set up and, as far as I can tell, it worked great. Everything sounds great. But I'm having a problem using Dynamic EQ, which I'm very keen to use. The problem is noticeable speaker hum whenever Dynamic EQ is enabled on Dolby digital sources - and only on Dolby digital sources. PCM sources work just fine. But for Dolby, there's a loud hum. If I turn off Dynamic EQ, the hum instantly disappears.
This is happening with two different components, an Oppo 971 DVD player and an old Xbox (which I use as a media center), both connected via digital optical cables.
There is no hum in the system otherwise: radio, listening to CDs, watching TV, etc, is fine. It's only when I try to use Dynamic EQ on Dolby sources.
Any idea what's going on here? Is the Dynamic EQ magnifying an existing problem or is it the problem? Should I redo the Audyssey set up and see if that helps?

It does sound like Dynamic EQ is amplifying an existing problem. Is the hum there with the source connected, but no content playing? If so, turn off Dynamic EQ and turn up the volume as high as possible to see if you hear the hum coming up.

Chris

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post #4780 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 01:44 AM
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I am just shopping for a receiver and it looks like Audyssey is a feature to really look for. Would people here use it as a key factor in choosing another receiver?

I have a Yamaha with YPAO and it does not seem to be nearly as sophisticated.

Mark MacLean

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post #4781 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

It does sound like Dynamic EQ is amplifying an existing problem. Is the hum there with the source connected, but no content playing? If so, turn off Dynamic EQ and turn up the volume as high as possible to see if you hear the hum coming up.

Chris

Hi, Chris. Thanks for the reply.
No, there is no hum at all when the component is connected but no content is playing, with or without Dynamic EQ. I turned the volume up as high as it would go and it was fine: no hum.
And again, the hum is only there with Dynamic EQ turned on for Dolby digital sources from either the Oppo or the Xbox. As soon as Dynamic EQ is turned off, the hum completely disappears. And if the Oppo or the Xbox is sending a PCM source I can turn on Dynamic EQ without any hum at all.
Any ideas? Is there anything else I can do to troubleshoot?
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post #4782 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeriousHorse View Post

Hi, Chris. Thanks for the reply.
No, there is no hum at all when the component is connected but no content is playing, with or without Dynamic EQ. I turned the volume up as high as it would go and it was fine: no hum.
And again, the hum is only there with Dynamic EQ turned on for Dolby digital sources from either the Oppo or the Xbox. As soon as Dynamic EQ is turned off, the hum completely disappears. And if the Oppo or the Xbox is sending a PCM source I can turn on Dynamic EQ without any hum at all.
Any ideas? Is there anything else I can do to troubleshoot?

I have contacted Onkyo engineering in Japan and will report back when I hear from them. There was another user (Takenobu) that had the same issue last month. I never heard back as to whether that was resolved.

Can you try one more thing: Start playing Dolby Digital content and then hit Pause. Then check for the hum. I am trying to figure out if it is injected into the signal ahead of Dynamic EQ.

Chris

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post #4783 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 08:38 AM
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I noticed that when I first ran audyssey XT it put my THX certifide center speaker at 120HZ, I then lowered the mic A few inches to exactly match ear hight(38in on rear riser) when seated then I re-ran audyssey and it put my center speaker at 90hz. I have A 2 stage Riser and there for have my center speaker angled up to my rear riser center seat(38in from floor) using A laser pointer to get it angled right.What this suggests is that by the lowering of the mic tripod the center speaker was able to graze the mic better thus getting A more accurate reading.
With my unusual setup with A two stage riser and A seating ear hight of 38in from floor and the middle of the center channels tweeter at 16in Would it be possible to raze the center channel A little just for the audyssey calibration to graze the mic better without introducing other unwanted problems ???,then I would just lower the center speaker back on its original 14in stand floor position after calibration ??....
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post #4784 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 08:48 AM
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Hello again Chris,

I am trying to run Dual Descenti's as one sub.I ran Audyssey connecting them together(sw1 lfe out from receiver to sub1 lfe in,sub out from sub1 to lfe in on sub2) I am getting a very muddy or should i say it sounds as if the 2nd sub is blown

Should I run Audyssey connecting them using a Y split cable instead? Or is Audyssey meant to work with 2 subs only if the sw1 and sw2 outs on the receiver are used? I have 3 sub outs on my receiver

Thanx again in advance
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post #4785 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Doobieedoo View Post

Hello again Chris,

I am trying to run Dual Descenti's as one sub.I ran Audyssey connecting them together(sw1 lfe out from receiver to sub1 lfe in,sub out from sub1 to lfe in on sub2) I am getting a very muddy or should i say it sounds as if the 2nd sub is blown

Should I run Audyssey connecting them using a Y split cable instead? Or is Audyssey meant to work with 2 subs only if the sw1 and sw2 outs on the receiver are used? I have 3 sub outs on my receiver

Thanx again in advance

I wouldn't go through one sub to get to the other. The easiest is to y-cord one sub output and run two cables to your subs. Before doing that, you should play some test noise from the subs (each one individually) and set the volume controls on each so that they measure about the same at the listening position with an SPL meter. Then y-cord to them and run MultEQ so that it sees them as one sub.

If you actually have a blown sub you should tend to it first before proceeding.

Chris

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post #4786 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

I noticed that when I first ran audyssey XT it put my THX certifide center speaker at 120HZ, I then lowered the mic A few inches to exactly match ear hight(38in on rear riser) when seated then I re-ran audyssey and it put my center speaker at 90hz. I have A 2 stage Riser and there for have my center speaker angled up to my rear riser center seat(38in from floor) using A laser pointer to get it angled right.What this suggests is that by the lowering of the mic tripod the center speaker was able to graze the mic better thus getting A more accurate reading.
With my unusual setup with A two stage riser and A seating ear hight of 38in from floor and the middle of the center channels tweeter at 16in Would it be possible to raze the center channel A little just for the audyssey calibration to graze the mic better without introducing other unwanted problems ???,then I would just lower the center speaker back on its original 14in stand floor position after calibration ??....

Would A audyssey pro calibration help with my given setup because of the higher quality mic used and given the existing inherant grazing problem the standard audyssey mic has in this type of setup. Thank's in advance for any help....
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post #4787 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Would A audyssey pro calibration help with my given setup because of the higher quality mic used and given the existing inherant grazing problem the standard audyssey mic has in this type of setup. Thank's in advance for any help....

Frankly, the Audyssey Pro calibration will not make this any better. That mic requires grazing incidence as well and so you will be faced with the same problem. Some in this thread have successfully managed to quickly lower the mic right before the chirps play from the center channel.

In my own experience having the center channel lower and measuring higher is not that big of a problem. It can be if the center channel is on the floor (there was one such case in this thread). But having it some cm lower is just not a huge deal. You are judging accuracy of MultEQ by how close to 80 Hz it calculated the crossover because the theoretical limit of THX speakers is 80 Hz. But in a real room situation there are interactions with room acoustics that can greatly change where the roll-off point is found. So, I would also suggest listening for a while with the filters and settings that were found under standard measurement conditions. If there are problems then you can resort to more drastic measures like moving the mic lower for the center speaker.


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post #4788 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I have contacted Onkyo engineering in Japan and will report back when I hear from them. There was another user (Takenobu) that had the same issue last month. I never heard back as to whether that was resolved.

Can you try one more thing: Start playing Dolby Digital content and then hit Pause. Then check for the hum. I am trying to figure out if it is injected into the signal ahead of Dynamic EQ.

Chris

Hi, Chris. Thanks so much for following this up.
I did as you asked and turned Dynamic EQ on, started some Dolby Digital content (and the hum started) then hit pause. The hum stopped while the DVD was paused. Tried this on both the Oppo and the Xbox for the same result.
What does that suggest?
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post #4789 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 05:54 PM
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Originally had the Onkyo 605 and had set up the Audyssey and the sound on my PS3 Spiderman was awesome but have a 7.1 speaker system, so decided to go upgrade to the Onkyo 705 ever since the same movie Spiderman does not sound the same for some reason or another? Could it be the back speakers? It really does not make sense does it????

Ralph
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post #4790 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 08:15 PM
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Does anyone know why Classé didn't incorporate Audyssey in the SSP-800!!

The marketing guys ay Classé claim Audyssey doesn't work!!

In addition, there are a couple of die hard guys on the HT that will bite your head off if you attack Classé so tread lightly and be careful about what you say!
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post #4791 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeriousHorse View Post

Hi, Chris. Thanks so much for following this up.
I did as you asked and turned Dynamic EQ on, started some Dolby Digital content (and the hum started) then hit pause. The hum stopped while the DVD was paused. Tried this on both the Oppo and the Xbox for the same result.
What does that suggest?

That suggests that the hum is being injected by the decoder into the content, but it's difficult to say for sure.

Chris

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post #4792 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdmaclean View Post

I am just shopping for a receiver and it looks like Audyssey is a feature to really look for. Would people here use it as a key factor in choosing another receiver?

When I purchased my Onkyo pre-pro, I didn't even know what Audyssey was. After I read about it, I thought it was a nice add-on, but didn't know if I'd use it or not. After I used it, it became indispensable. I won't get another pre-pro or receiver without it.
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post #4793 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 10:57 PM
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I am using the Onkyo 885 Pre Pro, and I also have a SMS-1 to eq my subs. I paid a small fortune to have a local audio calibrator (who acknowledged he had little experience with audyssey or audyssey pro) come and perform a Pro calibration on my setup. I enjoy thumping bass during movie soundtracks, even if it is too "hot" by external objective measuring. Unfortunately, the pro calibration (which took the better part of the day, and cost me over $1000--don't ask) was performed when the SMS-1 was setup to output subwoofer volumes which were inappropriately high for the calibration.

When he left and I looked at the speaker level settings that audyssey measured, I got the following
L front +12
C front +9
R front +12
R side +9
R rear +10
L rear +9
L side +6.5
sub -15

Obviously, audyssey tried to minimize the overpowering subwoofer by setting its trim to maximum, and by boosting the other speakers to near maximum gain.

Forgetting for a moment about overall system volume, I actually found this level of trim adjustment to be wanting in the bass output department, and I fiddled (in the sms-1 as well) and ultimately arrived at a subwoofer output setting of -7

By the way, the speaker distances all were measured accurately.

Now that I have given you all the background, here is the problem: On some soundtracks, even boosting the Onkyo's volume to maximum (which, with the trim settings noted above, is +6 db) I find that the system doesn't play loud enough. Yes, it is "reasonably" loud, but I built a sound proof room and I have plenty of good clean power with specially modded Odyssey Amps, and I want it to be louder at times. Now, mind you, the sound that I do get is wonderful, balanced, and I have no complaints there. If I keep the Onkyo volume at maximum gain (still +6) and remove all equalization (ie defeat Audyssey) I can blow my eardrums out.

So, clearly, there is something going on where Audyssey is capping my maximum pre amp output.

Short of blowing another $1000 with my original calibrator, and re-doing audyssey pro (or, saving that additional $1000 but throwing away the money I spent the first go 'round, and re-doing a basic, non-Pro, Audyssey calibration on my own) does anyone have any ideas? I certainly don't want to revert to non-audyssey sound, which is notably harsher and less smooth, just to gain seem volume....
Mark
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post #4794 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msleb View Post

When he left and I looked at the speaker level settings that audyssey measured, I got the following
L front +12
C front +9
R front +12
R side +9
R rear +10
L rear +9
L side +6.5
sub -15

So, clearly, there is something going on where Audyssey is capping my maximum pre amp output.

The fact that the trims were set so high means that you have run out of headroom. There is only so much available gain in a receiver and you have reached the max. Onkyo has implemented their volume control so that turning it up beyond the max headroom limit has no effect...

It's obvious that the installer had no clue, but it is also obvious that there is a huge discrepancy between the efficiency of your main speakers and your subwoofer. This was made even worse by adding gain to the sub using the SMS-1. Have you contacted the installer to ask them to come back and fix this?

If not, I would recommend subtracting 9 dB from each of the main channel trims. The tricky part will be how to set the subwoofer volume. If you have an SPL meter you can use the internal receiver test noise to measure the sub and set the trim. It's not perfect (it will be within a few dB), but will get you close.

Chris

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post #4795 of 71792 Old 06-29-2008, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msleb View Post

So, clearly, there is something going on where Audyssey is capping my maximum pre amp output.

This needs to be confirmed by Chris, but to have a better setting of your levels without losing your pro calibration, you can do this.
Set your sub knob halfway.
Start the MultEQ setting and do three points.
When the third is done, say it to calculate.
Then use the review function and write down the levels.
DO NOT SAVE the settings and terminate the procedure by unplugging the mic.
This should not cancel the pro calibration.
At this poit you go to the levels setting and input the levels you wrote down before.
Done!!
Now you will have the headroom needed to really increase the volume.

Ciao
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post #4796 of 71792 Old 06-30-2008, 04:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Does anyone know why Classé didn't incorporate Audyssey in the SSP-800!!

The marketing guys ay Classé claim Audyssey doesn't work!!

In addition, there are a couple of die hard guys on the HT that will bite your head off if you attack Classé so tread lightly and be careful about what you say!

Because they suck. I say they suck because they obviously lied about Audyssey not working.

If they think you are so stupid as to drink their kool-aid, they do not deserve your money.
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post #4797 of 71792 Old 06-30-2008, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Because they suck. I say they suck because they obviously lied about Audyssey not working.

If they think you are so stupid as to drink their kool-aid, they do not deserve your money.

Yea, I wonder why they have such low-classé people working for them?
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post #4798 of 71792 Old 06-30-2008, 06:10 AM
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I have run Audyssey perhaps a dozen times in my room now and if I place the mike at the same locations each time I get pretty consistence results. What I find interesting is that if I alter the mike's locations to even a small degree I get rather dramatic differences with some settings.

For background I have a fairly easy room to work with (I believe) and it even has some acoustical treatment. Seating consists of four chairs all in a row.

The speaker distances always come back exactly the same distance and all of the matching speakers the exact same distance away (such as left and right). Also the levels are exactly the same each run. Ranging from 3.0- to 12.00-. So you are saying what's the dramatic differences?

I'm using my front speakers' built-in subs for my subwoofer and I have been setting their volume by sight... using the tiny volume knob. Well I decided to volume check them and found they were off by 3 decibels or so (one was louder than the other). I adjusted them to be the same level and ran Audyssey again.

This time I lowered the mike a couple of inches (within an inch or so of the listening level) and weighted the eight passes a little more towards the center of the listening area.

As expected it lowered the subwoofer's setting a decibel or so and the distances and levels were exactly as before. However the crossovers were way different. Before there were set to...

90 - Fronts
90 - Center
60 - Surrounds
60 - Rear surrounds

This time they were set to...

Full - Fronts
90 - Center
Full - Surrounds
Full - Rear surrounds

Now outside of the rear surrounds Full sounds Ok to me but the real question or interest is how does Audyssey come up with the varying settings? Or better yet presuming Audyssey is correct on each run and the difference is solely based by the mike location how do we determine which locations to use for the eight scans?

In reality I don't think the end results are going to sound that different but I just find it hard to say I have run Audyssey the best way I can and that's that... it always seems like placing the mike in different locations might lead to better results.

Which leads to two things. I guess you need to spent time listening after each run and determine which you prefer and since they all sound great to me I guess (again) the end result is very close. Secondly it would be very nice if Onkyo gave you the ability to store two (even three) sets of settings so you could compare them easily!
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post #4799 of 71792 Old 06-30-2008, 06:47 AM
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Originally had the Onkyo 605 and had set up the Audyssey and the sound on my PS3 Spiderman was awesome but have a 7.1 speaker system, so decided to go upgrade to the Onkyo 705 ever since the same movie Spiderman does not sound the same for some reason or another? Could it be the back speakers? It really does not make sense does it????

Guy's any thoughts???? This is driving me nuts and besides had to spend more money so that I could hear better sounds, yet it is the opposite getting worse sound's. Perhaps should turn off the 2 rear speakers and just swallow the expense that I paid for the 705.

Ralph
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post #4800 of 71792 Old 06-30-2008, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

That suggests that the hum is being injected by the decoder into the content, but it's difficult to say for sure.

Chris

This sounds like ground loops. You could try temporally connecting a ground wire between the chassis or try a earth ground (wall plug ground may or may not be good) things like this are sometimes pretty tough to find.
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