"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1638 - AVS Forum
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post #49111 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

...and yet the reference offset setting knows only one direction.

I'm not aware of any content with a higher effective reference level than movies. Perhaps some classical or "audiophile" recordings come close to movie reference as their effective reference . . . . I suppose if it existed in the wild, there would be offsets in both directions.
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post #49112 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Imagine a recording is mixed in a dubbing stage. The very same reording is mixed at higher levels in a music studio, let's say 20dB louder. Does the music mix need a boost or a cut when we bring it to the same loudness level as the movie mix?

Same average level? Typical music mix/mastering? The music will be hotter digitally, with a lower effective reference level and less available dynamic range. Bob Katz' interesting work on these issues in music cites rock/pop with a 8 dB peak to average level as highly dynamic (for that kind of music).

His modest proposal would use something very similar to movie reference: "This is a Monitor control marked in degree of attenuation. The ZERO position produces 83 dB SPL, C Weighted, on a per-channel basis with -20 dBFS RMS pink noise."

That's 2 dB quieter than movie ref, so for equal loudness would require a 2 dB hotter encoding. 0 dBFS would be at 103. His honor roll goes down to -9 dB effective reference level from his system, so an effective reference level of 72 dB, and 0 dBFS would be 92 dB.

But as you turn down the monitoring system you turn up the levels of the mix, if you're looking for a specific in-room average, so you actually use less of the available dynamic range than you would with a higher reference level. If you're mastering (and that's the stage that ultimately matters, not mixing) "pretty loud" at 85 dB averages, you've only got 7 dB of dynamics to work with in his "worst of the good" list.

http://www.digido.com/honor-roll.html
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post #49113 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

LOL! A great post that puts the last several pages into context!

Do you, when using THX Cinema with Loudness Plus, change the Audyssey Curve to 'flat' (or 'music' as Onkyo calls it) which I understand is recommended? And what do you do with Re-EQ?

I may well try THX LP as an alternative to DEQ and the rest of your settings would be similar to mine. But I am not sure what to do with the Audyssey curve setting and Re-EQ.

Anyone?

On my Onkyo 709, I use the Music curve for all of my inputs. I use THX Cinema/DTS Neo:6 Cinema + THX Cinema for everything, except music. I keep THX's Re-EQ on 100% of the time too.

I run a 5.1 setup with all direct radiators (SuperZero 2.0s), and to me, the THX modes make my surround sound field much more expansive than straight decoding. Also, with THX Cinema, I get the smoothest front to back, and side to side pans as well. I just watched The Hunt For Red October, and the sub panning shots were just incredible, especially the back to front. Yes my identical speakers have something to do with that, but I A/B'd the scene with THX vs straight decoding, and the difference was pretty obvious with THX Cinema engaged.

My opinion on THX Loudness Plus, is that it does not effect/boost/cut the bass at all, at any MV level, unlike DEQ. Users with measuring gear may prove me wrong, but my ears, as well as the documentation I posted, says that only the surround levels are tweaked, and it is a very subtle tweak at that, again unlike DEQ.

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post #49114 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

Some recent comments by Chris.
Keith, I included the now famous band scenario in the question...

Thanks Rickard. I'm not sure now whether I want to use DEQ or not!

I think I am going to just go by my ears. I'm going to experiment with THX Loudness Plus and I'll try to compare it with DEQ and see which I *prefer*. In the end analysis, I think that this is what this is going to come down to: some may prefer what DEQ does, some may prefer THX LP and some may prefer to leave it all off.

There's no point arguing the issue with Chris - he is the Ultimate Authority on this I guess and if he says I am confused, then I am confused, and need to go back to square one. The difficulty I can immediately foresee is that I also have massive respect for Roger's POV too, and he seems to be saying something different to Chris. Which is why I am coming to the conclusion: let my *ears* be the judge and to hell with the science behind it.


EDIT: On looking at the reply from Chris a second time, I think he is correct - I was confused in the attempted explanation that he was looking at - I think I got it better as I thought more about it and the more recent observations I made express my point better - in the reply to Feri, for example. In that post I was more clear as to the difference between DEQ working 'benignly' when the MV is changed and how it works when the MV is NOT changed. I am not sure from Chris's reply if he is addressing that point.
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post #49115 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Same average level? Typical music mix/mastering? The music will be hotter digitally, with a lower effective reference level and less available dynamic range. Bob Katz' interesting work on these issues in music cites rock/pop with a 8 dB peak to average level as highly dynamic (for that kind of music).

His modest proposal would use something very similar to movie reference: "This is a Monitor control marked in degree of attenuation. The ZERO position produces 83 dB SPL, C Weighted, on a per-channel basis with -20 dBFS RMS pink noise."

That's 2 dB quieter than movie ref, so for equal loudness would require a 2 dB hotter encoding. 0 dBFS would be at 103. His honor roll goes down to -9 dB effective reference level from his system, so an effective reference level of 72 dB, and 0 dBFS would be 92 dB.

But as you turn down the monitoring system you turn up the levels of the mix, if you're looking for a specific in-room average, so you actually use less of the available dynamic range than you would with a higher reference level. If you're mastering (and that's the stage that ultimately matters, not mixing) "pretty loud" at 85 dB averages, you've only got 7 dB of dynamics to work with in his "worst of the good" list.

http://www.digido.com/honor-roll.html

Not sure how this relates to my original post?

I do have his book. Highly recommended by the way.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #49116 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Please don't take my word on this as some form of gospel, but yes I am switching it off. I can't say how it will sound yet as it has so far always been switched on. TBH, for me it probably will make little difference. I have no near neighbours to annoy, no young children sleeping etc and a partner who can sleep through an earthquake (and actually has - albeit a minor one!). So I listen fairly loud and therefore, for me, DEQ isn't doing much anyway I'd guess. For someone who needs to turn the MV down quite a bit I'd say that DEQ was a good thing and the 'purist' stuff I am talking about is almost certainly outweighed by the DEQ benefits in other areas. When I have had to turn the MV down for some reason, I have noticed that I can hear the effect of DEQ very easily - sometimes it has sounded right and other times it hasn't - depends on the content maybe?

I'd also say that I am far more inclined to a 'purist' approach than some perhaps are and I am especially in tune with the idea of keeping the artists' work as close as I can to their original intent when they created it. This doesn't bother some people (which is fine too of course) but I have spent a working lifetime in the creative field and this perhaps influences me because I am perhaps more sensitive to the creative artist's original intent and the reasons for staying close to it. IOW, I want to see what the cinematographer/director intended me to see and to hear what the sound designer/mixer/director intended me to hear. Any deviation from that is perceived by me as 'distortion', not all that much different to, say, harmonic distortion in the signal path. This is why I agonised so much recently about raising the level of my bass a few dB, but I have come to terms with that on the basis that it could well be that Audyssey is NOT calibrating it to a reference level in my room anyway (we have no of knowing really).

I am a massive fan of Audyssey's XT32 (and soon of the Pro kit I hope) but DSX and the others are leaving me cold the more I understand about how they work (thanks to the great guys who contribute on here so readily and freely).

thank you for responding. I must have lost your response in here.

Did you come to the conclusion of not using it because of your own listening or from what others suggested etc..?

Dynamic EQ basically is a loudness compensation, no more no less?
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post #49117 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

thank you for responding. I must have lost your response in here.

Did you come to the conclusion of not using it because of your own listening or from what others suggested etc..?

I have always used DEQ 'blindly' on the basis that I understood that it could do no harm. I have never, therefore, looked into how it actually works, until recently. But I have long suspected that something has not been "quite right" and that DEQ may have something to do with it as a result of the way it works and the way it boosts some frequencies. I have often read that people say 'DEQ boosts the bass far too much in my system" but I have never taken much notice because I thought it didn't apply to me so they were either wrong or their system was just different from mine and I didn't experience the same problem. Now it is maybe as a result of my recently adding a second sub, along with the qualitative difference that has made to my bass, that has caused me to re-evaluate what I am hearing and has led me to the "something is not quite right" conclusion. I know that saying something is not quite right isn't all that helpful to other members here, but I am not especially good at measuring and I do have decades of listening experience, mostly with very high-end stereo equipment. When I suspect that something is not quite right, it often has turned out to the case and once I have put my finger on it I have been able to fix it. A recent example is with DSX where I just knew something was happening to the overall soundstage but had no actual idea what it was. I raised the issue with Roger and he gave me the science behind what I was hearing and then it all clicked into place. Similarly, with DEQ I have begun to develop this feeling that something is not quite right. Again, I have raised the issue on here and in all the ensuing discussion, I have sort of come to a conclusion that there is a reason why I have this niggling feeling and that the reason is something to do with how DEQ works. I may be totally wrong and I have not yet had chance to conduct a lot of listening tests with and without DEQ engaged. I am about to start that and also to try THX Loudness Plus as an alternative to DEQ. From what I have discovered about THX LP it seems it may suit me better. That is not to say it will suit everyone better. Also, since Roger and Sanjay have pointed out, separately, that the way DEQ works is based on a flawed premise, this worries me even further and I fear that what it is doing is a form of distortion to the sound (similar in the way that I consider any form of dynamic range compression to be a form of distortion). [/quote]

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Originally Posted by nezff View Post


Dynamic EQ basically is a loudness compensation, no more no less?

It may be that I just dislike the way it works and it's as simple as that. Like the way I dislike how DSX height works (compared with Dolby PLIIz). Some may like it but I don't - a preference thing. I don't like the way it diminishes the contribution of the surrounds in favour of a more emphasised front sound stage. Might be a similar response to DEQ. Just a preference thing.
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post #49118 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Not sure how this relates to my original post?

I do have his book. Highly recommended by the way.

I took the post I was resonding to to be suggesting it's a problem that the offsets do not go into plus territory. If nothing is mixed with a higher effective reference level than movies, there's no need for plus offsets. Katz' work just demonstrates that in fact music is mastered with lower effective ref levels than movies, mooting (IMO) the point I thought you were making.

If I misunderstood you, well, it wouldn't be the first time, would it?

Enjoy.
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post #49119 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I have always used DEQ 'blindly' on the basis that I understood that it could do no harm. I have never, therefore, looked into how it actually works, until recently. But I have long suspected that something has not been "quite right" and that DEQ may have something to do with it as a result of the way it works and the way it boosts some frequencies. I have often read that people say 'DEQ boosts the bass far too much in my system" but I have never taken much notice because I thought it didn't apply to me so they were either wrong or their system was just different from mine and I didn't experience the same problem. Now it is maybe as a result of my recently adding a second sub, along with the qualitative difference that has made to my bass, that has caused me to re-evaluate what I am hearing and has led me to the "something is not quite right" conclusion. I know that saying something is not quite right isn't all that helpful to other members here, but I am not especially good at measuring and I do have decades of listening experience, mostly with very high-end stereo equipment. When I suspect that something is not quite right, it often has turned out to the case and once I have put my finger on it I have been able to fix it. A recent example is with DSX where I just knew something was happening to the overall soundstage but had no actual idea what it was. I raised the issue with Roger and he gave me the science behind what I was hearing and then it all clicked into place. Similarly, with DEQ I have begun to develop this feeling that something is not quite right. Again, I have raised the issue on here and in all the ensuing discussion, I have sort of come to a conclusion that there is a reason why I have this niggling feeling and that the reason is something to do with how DEQ works. I may be totally wrong and I have not yet had chance to conduct a lot of listening tests with and without DEQ engaged. I am about to start that and also to try THX Loudness Plus as an alternative to DEQ. From what I have discovered about THX LP it seems it may suit me better. That is not to say it will suit everyone better. Also, since Roger and Sanjay have pointed out, separately, that the way DEQ works is based on a flawed premise, this worries me even further and I fear that what it is doing is a form of distortion to the sound (similar in the way that I consider any form of dynamic range compression to be a form of distortion).



It may be that I just dislike the way it works and it's as simple as that. Like the way I dislike how DSX height works (compared with Dolby PLIIz). Some may like it but I don't - a preference thing. I don't like the way it diminishes the contribution of the surrounds in favour of a more emphasised front sound stage. Might be a similar response to DEQ. Just a preference thing.

gotcha. I have always used DEQ also just I guess, because. I noticed one night after calibration, that my setup sounded different. I went in and DEQ was off, when I turned it on, it did sound "better". Of course, no tests, measurements etc..
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post #49120 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

If I set the DEQ Reference Level to -10db, would that mean that at -10db or louder, DEQ would be doing nothing at all? Or once I go to -9db on up to 0db, does DEQ do "something" to the signal?


Also for me, the loudest I ever go is -5db while watching BD/DVD, so for me, -5db is in fact, MY reference level. Should I then set DEQ to 5db for the Reference Level offset?

I think this is backwards. With the offset, Audyssey treats the content like reference is 10 dB lower than normal. So at -20 on the MV, Audyssey acts like you're at -10 (otherwise it would correct MORE rather than less with the offsets). Under that logic, you'd get to "same as zero at reference" when your MV is at plus 10, with a 10 dB offset.

It's easier for me to think about by comparing to the old fashioned kludge of turning down the input level. When I turn my CD input level down 10 dB< when the MV is at -10, Audyssey acts like it's playing at -10, but the content is really at minus 20, because it's lowered before Audysey gets it. So Audyssey corrects my -20 from reference signal as if it were only -10. Again, doing the opposite would result in Audyssey applying more LF correction with the offset than without - exactly the opposite of what we want. So when the signal (with my input reduction ) is "really" at minus 10, my MV is at zero and Audyssey applies no correction. As I go over MV zero, it will start deemphasizing bass and treble . . .

What I don't know for suer is how Audyssey treats the MV setting with the offset. Does it still change from addition to subtraction at zero, or at plus 10? Easy enough for the system to be set up either way, I think.
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post #49121 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

It doesn't matter if they are parallel. What matters is the delta at any frequency. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post19124377

But if they are not parallel, or symptotic or whatever the right word is for a curve, the delta between the different curves is by definition not the same . . .
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post #49122 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Also, since Roger and Sanjay have pointed out, separately, that the way DEQ works is based on a flawed premise, this worries me even further and I fear that what it is doing is a form of distortion to the sound (similar in the way that I consider any form of dynamic range compression to be a form of distortion).


Keith, with due respect to all my friends here on the Official Audyssey Thread, from whom I have learned a million, I take the freedom to speak up for a moment and ask: does this forum or any one individually here have the authority to announce that any product of any maker (be it hardware or software or both) is based on flawed premise?

I'm a bit sad today, so wouldn't it be better to continue discussion, from time to time even AskAudyssey while refraining from such verdicts nobody ever prooved, not to us on the forum but e.g. to Denon, Onk, Integra, or even to the US Patent Office.

How do you see the case, or anyone else?

Thank you for your attention.
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post #49123 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

And with movies, Kal? Do you tend to use it then, or not? Whenever I don't fully understand all of the technicalities around an issue, I tend to follow the practices of those who do - letting them do my understanding for me if you will, hence my asking. Thanks.

I do not use it with movies but, mostly, because my default is DEQ off and I forget to turn it on. Accept this in the context that my music listening is most important to me and HT/TV/Video is casual.

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post #49124 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

I think this is backwards. With the offset, Audyssey treats the content like reference is 10 dB lower than normal. So at -20 on the MV, Audyssey acts like you're at -10 (otherwise it would correct MORE rather than less with the offsets). Under that logic, you'd get to "same as zero at reference" when your MV is at plus 10, with a 10 dB offset.

It's easier for me to think about by comparing to the old fashioned kludge of turning down the input level. When I turn my CD input level down 10 dB< when the MV is at -10, Audyssey acts like it's playing at -10, but the content is really at minus 20, because it's lowered before Audysey gets it. So Audyssey corrects my -20 from reference signal as if it were only -10. Again, doing the opposite would result in Audyssey applying more LF correction with the offset than without - exactly the opposite of what we want. So when the signal (with my input reduction ) is "really" at minus 10, my MV is at zero and Audyssey applies no correction. As I go over MV zero, it will start deemphasizing bass and treble . . .

What I don't know for suer is how Audyssey treats the MV setting with the offset. Does it still change from addition to subtraction at zero, or at plus 10? Easy enough for the system to be set up either way, I think.

The DEQ discussion has been both informative, provocative & confusing. As we follow this thread from it's inception up to current postings - it appears that waves of disbelief in Audyssey's effectiveness, accuracy & performance are followed by reflection, changes in opinion and acceptance of Audyssey principles and performance. Seems like the waves of disbelief are currently lapping at the shores.

In any case - my understanding - & I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong is that if you utilize an offset (-10db as an example) then MV at -10 is equivalent to 0 MV when no offset is applied.

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post #49125 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

I'm confused by your post, much like Markus I think.

But it is true that music is mixed and higher reference level than film. Meaning at 0 on your volume dial, music will be much louder than film content. And since it is much louder it needs less correction.

No. Reference level is how the monitoring system is set up. For movies, reference level means a -20dBFS pink noise signal will yield exactly 85 dB in each speaker. It says nothing at all about how loudly any sound will be encoded or heard. Except that 105 dB is the max per speaker, because I've got 20 dB of digital "louder" to go above -20dBFS. I can mix a movie so that every sound is about 80 dB. -25 dBFS is the encoded level. Played back at reference, it will be 80 dB loud.

Lets' say I'm mastering music on a system calibrated to movie reference, and I want my average levels in room to be about 85 dB. That means I will be encoding at about -20dBFS.

Now lets say I'm mastering in a room with a HIGHER reference level. Let's say my -20dBFS test signal now produces 115 dB at the listening position for each speaker, a 10 dB Llouder" reference setting. If I want the sound to average 85 dB, I will encode it at -30 dB (115-20 being 85). So it will be quieter digitally than the music mixed at reference.

Now let's say I master a music mix in a studio set with an effective reference level 10dB lower than movies. Now, my -20dBFS test tone yields 75dB from each speaker rather than 85 as normal ref level does. With 20 dB of digital headroom, I have a max per speaker of 95dB with a 0dBFS signal. Now, if I want the sound at 85 dB in room, I will be encoding it digitally at -10BFS, much "louder" digitally because my playback system was calibrated much quieter. THe quieter the playback system is calibrated, the louder (digitally) the signal has to be to reach the same level. SO quieter reference yields "louder" disk
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post #49126 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

So far, I like it as it is. With RLO=0 and trim levels of the surrounds as set by Audyssey.
But if you pointed me to some samples which would exhibit bad side effects of Dynamic EQ, I am open to reconsider the situation...

I have no specific suggestions for movie titles. Have you tried a test tone disc, like THX Optimizer or Disney's test signals?

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Basically all 2.0, both Dolby Digital 2.0 and PCM 2.0 from my cable box and from my Oppo BDP-83 (DVD/BD). Not music though.

Interesting. If you take a DVD that has both a 2.0 as well as a 5.1 of the same thing (probably an older movie), and compare them, do you find the PLII Movie surrounds are stronger than the 5.1? I have not experienced that.

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post #49127 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 09:49 AM
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This ended up in the wrong thread when i posted it earlier today:

Theoretically, looking at how much flattter the curves are in the midbass as you get louder, it seems fairly obvious that the correction from MV at -3 versus Mv at -10 versus MV at -20 will all be different. If we're looking for example at a full range pink noise encoded at -20 dB, that means the correction from 85 dB to 82 dB is different from the correction from 85 dB to 75 dB. And that the correction from 75 dB to 65 dB is different from the correction from 85 to 75 dB.

I firmly believe that my ears cannot tell the difference based on what volume control gets the tone to 75 dB. I think the correction is the same from 75 to 65 dB whether its because I moved my volume knob from -10 to -20 or the mixing engineer turned down the fader for the tone making it 75 dB at reference, so that when I turn down to -10 I need the 75 to 65 correction, not the 85 to 75 correction (and certainly not the 105 to 95 correction for a 0dBFS tone).
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post #49128 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

But if they are not parallel, or symptotic or whatever the right word is for a curve, the delta between the different curves is by definition not the same . . .

What definition? Those curves are the result of listening tests.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #49129 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:07 AM
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Can anyone confirm for me that their 4311 also acts this way.
When you change the main speaker setting from large (full range) to small you get a 180degree phase shift change cancellation effect to the relation of the subs output.
You need to also set the LFE+MAIN to ON.
Use of large full range mains are a must.
Would this be a Audyssey or denon bug ?
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post #49130 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

FilmMixer, Help! Did you like/use DEQ?

I'm curious about his answer too!
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post #49131 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

gotcha. I have always used DEQ also just I guess, because. I noticed one night after calibration, that my setup sounded different. I went in and DEQ was off, when I turned it on, it did sound "better". Of course, no tests, measurements etc..

I think that in many circumstances DEQ will be helpful - it does seem to make a dramatic difference when the MV is turned down a lot - maybe to -20 or even lower. I then produces a very pleasing sound, regardless of whether it is accurate or not. A lot of people will find that very inviting and very useful I think.

But, as I said somewhere along the way, I never go anywhere near -20 MV. I listen at somewhere between -9dB and -5dB (depending on the source - some discs are louder than others for the same MV). And because of that, the effect of DEQ is less important for me than it will be for some.

I have just spent an hour or so doing a comparison between THX Loudness Plus and DEQ and there are audible differences there for sure. I am not sure yet though that I could say I prefer one over then other, or both off.
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post #49132 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

On my Onkyo 709, I use the Music curve for all of my inputs. I use THX Cinema/DTS Neo:6 Cinema + THX Cinema for everything, except music. I keep THX's Re-EQ on 100% of the time too.

I run a 5.1 setup with all direct radiators (SuperZero 2.0s), and to me, the THX modes make my surround sound field much more expansive than straight decoding. Also, with THX Cinema, I get the smoothest front to back, and side to side pans as well. I just watched The Hunt For Red October, and the sub panning shots were just incredible, especially the back to front. Yes my identical speakers have something to do with that, but I A/B'd the scene with THX vs straight decoding, and the difference was pretty obvious with THX Cinema engaged.

My opinion on THX Loudness Plus, is that it does not effect/boost/cut the bass at all, at any MV level, unlike DEQ. Users with measuring gear may prove me wrong, but my ears, as well as the documentation I posted, says that only the surround levels are tweaked, and it is a very subtle tweak at that, again unlike DEQ.

Do you use THX Music for listening to music? Or what do you use?

THX Loudness Plus does boost the bass like DynEQ, just not as much. I have on old plot where I did a quick comparison, but don't have it in front of me. I think at a volume of -15 below ref that THX Loundess Plus boosted things in the 60hz range about 3db, while DynEQ had a boost closer to 9db. Probably aren't exact numbers but in the ballpark to give you an idea.
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post #49133 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Keith, with due respect to all my friends here on the Official Audyssey Thread, from whom I have learned a million, I take the freedom to speak up for a moment and ask: does this forum or any one individually here have the authority to announce that any product of any maker (be it hardware or software or both) is based on flawed premise?

Dear Feri, I would agree with that in general, but in this particular instance I am quoting Roger and he is more than qualified to know this stuff IMO. I am sure that Roger, from his work in the field, will have a very thorough understanding of competitive technologies and how they work. So when he says that Audyssey did not use equal loudness content in all channels when they developed DEQ, I just believe him.

It was also significant to me that Sanjay said exactly the same thing a few posts before Roger's. I don't know what Sanjay does for a living but from reading his many posts here he seems to be extremely knowledgeable and authoritative. If he is simply a hobbyist, like most of us here, then I am amazed at the depth of his knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I'm a bit sad today,

I am sorry to hear that and hope that it passes, sooner rather than later if possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

so wouldn't it be better to continue discussion, from time to time even AskAudyssey while refraining from such verdicts nobody ever prooved, not to us on the forum but e.g. to Denon, Onk, Integra, or even to the US Patent Office.

I think the problem with asking Chris is that he has, first and foremost, a product to sell and he is never therefore going to admit to any serious weaknesses in that product, and nor would I expect him to. I have the utmost respect for Chris and am confident he is a person of high integrity, but his first duty is to his company, not to us (rightly so IMO).
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post #49134 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I do not use it with movies but, mostly, because my default is DEQ off and I forget to turn it on. Accept this in the context that my music listening is most important to me and HT/TV/Video is casual.

Thanks, Kal.
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post #49135 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

As far as I understood it, the Reference Offset is not a fix for overboosted surround levels.
It is for content mixed at lower levels then Film Reference levels, such as music.

That's what I've read as well, but I didn't believe it was the only reason since the offset function was introduced after complaints about the overboosted surrounds (not that Audyssey would admit that reason publicly).

I think the offsets are a good idea. However, since we don't know the reference level of most music, the amount of offset has to be applied arbitrarily (based on whether it sounds good to you or not ...i.e., preference). And I'm fine with that but, again, I can't pretend that the offset feature has anything to do with actual reference and/or restoring accurate/intended spectral balance for my hearing when I listen at non-reference levels.

For the record, that's also how I've thought of all Audyssey technologies. While I've always recommended buying receivers with Audyssey room correction, because it yields beneficial results, I've never bought into the whole "reference" thing.
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Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

And it is only natural than the surround boost should decrease as well as the "tilt" of the loudness "curve".

Assuming you believe the surrounds should be boosted, then yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

Is there another technology that is built primarily for Film content that also is adaptable for content which is not mixed at Film Reference levels?

I'm guessing THX Loudness Plus might have some sort of offset, since THX is primarily about film playback but their loudness compensation also has a Music mode (based on the same assumption as Audyssey that music is recorded louder than film).

Sanjay
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post #49136 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

I think at a volume of -15 below ref that THX Loundess Plus boosted things in the 60hz range about 3db, while DynEQ had a boost closer to 9db. Probably aren't exact numbers but in the ballpark to give you an idea.

Here is what DEQ boosts at MV -15. Assume 0dB is Audyssey MultEQ XT32 shows about +5.2dB at 60Hz and about +6.6dB at 20Hz.
LL
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post #49137 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:40 AM
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The recent focus of discussion around DEQ has me intrigued to go home tonight and do some A/B comparisons with it on and off as I have never done such a comparison in my room (I just turned DEQ on at the urging of some on these forums almost a year ago and never questioned it). It will be interesting to see what I'll end up using after my ears have their say.

Quick clarification: THX Loudness Plus can only be used when a THX listening mode is being used, correct?
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post #49138 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Dear Feri, I would agree with that in general, but in this particular instance I am quoting Roger and he is more than qualified to know this stuff IMO. I am sure that Roger, from his work in the field, will have a very thorough understanding of competitive technologies and how they work. So when he says that Audyssey did not use equal loudness content in all channels when they developed DEQ, I just believe him.

It was also significant to me that Sanjay said exactly the same thing a few posts before Roger's. I don't know what Sanjay does for a living but from reading his many posts here he seems to be extremely knowledgeable and authoritative. If he is simply a hobbyist, like most of us here, then I am amazed at the depth of his knowledge.



I am sorry to hear that and hope that it passes, sooner rather than later if possible.



I think the problem with asking Chris is that he has, first and foremost, a product to sell and he is never therefore going to admit to any serious weaknesses in that product, and nor would I expect him to. I have the utmost respect for Chris and am confident he is a person of high integrity, but his first duty is to his company, not to us (rightly so IMO).

Thanks for your cheer-up words Keith. Appreicate it and its already over me. Actually, my concern was the NO-authority of making a verdict as to whether a product is flawed or not, especially on a forum like this one. I think in general we can agree to that again, as always!

Thanks again.
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post #49139 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I'm guessing THX Loudness Plus might have some sort of offset, since THX is primarily about film playback but their loudness compensation also has a Music mode (based on the same assumption as Audyssey that music is recorded louder than film).

So it is automatically used if you use THX Music I suppose?
Haven't tried that combo...
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post #49140 of 72584 Old 01-23-2012, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Quick clarification: THX Loudness Plus can only be used when a THX listening mode is being used, correct?

Yes.
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