"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 165 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #4921 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 08:43 AM
Senior Member
 
Nikonowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aiken View Post

There should be a button on the receiver, and also on the remote, called something like "Room EQ" which is the way it's labelled for my 2807. Pressing that button cycles through a set of options that goes Audyssey, Flat, Front, and Off for the 2807. Make sure it's on Audyssey or Flatthe difference is that the Audyssey curve introduces a slight roll off in the top end that is designed to work with DVD mastering standards.

If you already had the Audyssey EQ turned on before changing the speaker settings, it should still be turned on.

You can also check/adjust this setting through the on screen setup options in "Room EQ Setup" in the "Auto Setup/Room EQ" section of the menus.

Thanks David, once again for your valuable feedback!

I have no experience with Audyssey EQ or Room EQ setups as I have never used it on my receiver. So I will double check if this setting is turned on or not. If not, I will enable it to be set at Audyssey or Flat mode.

However, I always thought that it is better to leave the original source intact without any post-processing adjustments - is this not the case for home theater movie experience as well ? Why would I want to adjust sound as it probably alerts the intended "sound experience" . Sorry to be "difficult" and asking all these questions - one after another, but I just want to be absolutely that I understand these issues. I hope you forgive me

Is there a read up available somewhere that explains in lame terms what the Audyssey EQ or Room EQ setups/settings are all about. My Denon AVR manual does not have a lot of useful info.

Perhaps , Chris (Audyssey) has some useful links or info that is specifically available for my Dennon AVR-988 receiver model that would explain and provide recommendations for my particular receiver and 7.1 apeaker setup.

Thanks in advance for your help everyone,

Nikonowski
Nikonowski is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4922 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 09:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fyzziks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Old habits die hard. Audyssey is indeed making setting EQ filters considering both frequency and time. When the Audyssey filters are adjusted manually, they are simple frequency-only and have limited characteristics. Personally, I think being able to switch to manual Audyssey operation is nothing more than a bullet point item that the manufacture can add to the features list. This technology needs to be run automatically and any interference from the user beyond changing a crossover frequency here or there is defeating its purpose. When setup is run optimally, Audyssey produces a surround field that is beautifully integrated into the mains with the whole system having the best possible sound throughout the listening area. Any manual equalization, whether with the onboard Audyssey filters or ├╝ber-expensive parametrics and graphics will only adjust for ONE seat.

This sounds wrong, Jeff - with the exception of the crossover, there is no manual adjustment of Audyssey filters. Isn't the adjustable stuff just the graphic EQ, totally disconnected from the Audyssey system?
fyzziks is offline  
post #4923 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 09:08 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,459
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

This sounds wrong, Jeff - with the exception of the crossover, there is no manual adjustment of Audyssey filters. Isn't the adjustable stuff just the graphic EQ, totally disconnected from the Audyssey system?

Yes, of course.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #4924 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 09:49 AM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,049
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

This sounds wrong, Jeff - with the exception of the crossover, there is no manual adjustment of Audyssey filters. Isn't the adjustable stuff just the graphic EQ, totally disconnected from the Audyssey system?

Good point, Kal and fyzziks, and I was not clear on my point. And perhaps I misunderstand the "manual" filters to be part of Audyssey. (Are they? Guess not from your replies.) But one can fiddle with all of the speaker settings after running Audyssey and muck things up. The OP mentioned Audyssey setting his "speakers distance way out." Again, not clear on my point, there is always a reason why that would happen and posting here will always get Chris' attention; he had addressed that while I was composing my reply.

Thanks for straightening me out on the manual filters. But I'll stand by my underlying point that straight equalization cannot achieve what Audyssey does and if the automatic speaker settings look "odd" then posting here is the right thing to do.

- Jeff


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is offline  
post #4925 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 02:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
David Aiken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 625
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Thanks David, once again for your valuable feedback!

I have no experience with Audyssey EQ or Room EQ setups as I have never used it on my receiver. So I will double check if this setting is turned on or not. If not, I will enable it to be set at Audyssey or Flat mode.

However, I always thought that it is better to leave the original source intact without any post-processing adjustments - is this not the case for home theater movie experience as well ? Why would I want to adjust sound as it probably alerts the intended "sound experience" . Sorry to be "difficult" and asking all these questions - one after another, but I just want to be absolutely that I understand these issues. I hope you forgive me

Is there a read up available somewhere that explains in lame terms what the Audyssey EQ or Room EQ setups/settings are all about. My Denon AVR manual does not have a lot of useful info.

Perhaps , Chris (Audyssey) has some useful links or info that is specifically available for my Dennon AVR-988 receiver model that would explain and provide recommendations for my particular receiver and 7.1 apeaker setup.

Thanks in advance for your help everyone,

Nikonowski

If you want no processing at all, use one of the Denon's direct/pure direct options and in the settings menu tell it not to use Audyssey for that setting. Then switch between the Audyssey setting and the direct/pure direct one and see which you prefer. Depending on how bad your room's response is, you may be very badly surprised at the difference and what you prefer.

If you want no processing at all and a good room response, the only alternative is to go to the trouble of acoustically treating your room. That will cost you a lot more than using Audyssey, even if you go the DIY route which I initially did for my audio setup prior to swapping to professional treatments there.

You can get good results with physical acoustic treatments and you can get good results with Audyssey. I can't treat the room my HT setup is in and I'm quite happy to use Audyssey, and the results are massively better than using any of the cheesy DSP simulated environment processing options which is what I think most people are referring to when they say things sound better without processing.

One thing is certain. Things like Audyssey exist to help you get more enjoyment from your viewing/listening. They're only of value if you're happy with the results. What you need to do is to compare things with and without Audyssey and reach your own conclusions. Use it if you like the results and don't use it if you don't. If you don't like it, try the other manual EQ options the receiver offers you and try it with no processing at all using the direct or pure direct settings. The choices are there for you to try and the only opinion that counts on whether the results are worthwhile is yours. It's OK to look for advice on how to use something but don't rely advice about whether the results will be better or worse if what you're checking out is really whether or not you will prefer the results with or without something. There are some decisions you simply have to make for yourself. This is one of them.
David Aiken is offline  
post #4926 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 09:06 PM
Member
 
Telynau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would like to double check two things based on my readings in this forum.

1. By way of background, I use an Onkyo 805 AVR, sample at the full eight positions using the mike mounted on a tripod, pointing vertically, all as recommended by Audyssey, and set the crossovers of all of the speakers except the sub at 80 Hz, which causes the Onkyo to see them as "small" rather than large speakers. (Front left and right speakers are NHT Classic 4's; center, surround and back surround speakers are NHT Classic 3's. Sub is Epik Conquest with low pass set at 120 Hz.)

2. Do I understand correctly that to get the best results (most like the intended movie sound mix, including volume level), after running Audyssey MultiEq and saving the results I should use my Radio Shack digital SPL meter to adjust each channel to 75dB using the C, slow setting? What I am trying to understand is whether it is intended by doing so that the relative levels between channels set by Audyssey may be altered. For example, if Audyssey set the Front Left speaker at +1 and the Center at +3 (the Center being "+2" compared to the Left), should I be changing the Front Left to +3 (making the Center equal to the Left) if that is what I need to do to get a 75dB reading on the Onkyo test tone from the Front Left?

3. When I measure the speaker levels using the SPL meter, should the meter be pointed directly at the speaker from the main listening position? This means moving the meter around in a circle as it measures front left, center, front right, right surround, right back surround etc.

4. As long as I am on this subject, I recall reading Audyssey's recommendation that the SPL meter not be used to adjust the level of the subwoofer. Rather the best thing to do absent a more sophisticated analysis and calibration is to adjust the level of the sub, if at all, the same general way as the other channels were adjusted. For example, if as a result of adjusting the main 7 channels the levels of 4 or 5 of them were adjusted upwards +2 it would make sense to adjust the sub trim +2 as well.

The above is what I have been doing and the results seem to be pretty good. I am just trying to make sure I am doing the best I can with what I have.

Regards, James
Telynau is offline  
post #4927 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 09:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Michigan.
Posts: 1,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telynau View Post

I would like to double check two things based on my readings in this forum.

1. By way of background, I use an Onkyo 805 AVR, sample at the full eight positions using the mike mounted on a tripod, pointing vertically, all as recommended by Audyssey, and set the crossovers of all of the speakers except the sub at 80 Hz, which causes the Onkyo to see them as "small" rather than large speakers. (Front left and right speakers are NHT Classic 4's; center, surround and back surround speakers are NHT Classic 3's. Sub is Epik Conquest with low pass set at 120 Hz.)

2. Do I understand correctly that to get the best results (most like the intended movie sound mix, including volume level), after running Audyssey MultiEq and saving the results I should use my Radio Shack digital SPL meter to adjust each channel to 75dB using the C, slow setting? What I am trying to understand is whether it is intended by doing so that the relative levels between channels set by Audyssey may be altered. For example, if Audyssey set the Front Left speaker at +1 and the Center at +3 (the Center being "+2" compared to the Left), should I be changing the Front Left to +3 (making the Center equal to the Left) if that is what I need to do to get a 75dB reading on the Onkyo test tone from the Front Left?

In regards to resetting the audyssey speakers to match each other, my understanding would be to leave it alone.


. When I measure the speaker levels using the SPL meter, should the meter be pointed directly at the speaker from the main listening position? This means moving the meter around in a circle as it measures front left, center, front right, right surround, right back surround etc.

The meter should be on the sweet spot ( where The Main person will be seating ( yourself ?) and it should be pointed upward about your ear level when you are seating on your sweet spot and from that point should calibrate the speakers to the 75db and that is it, no need to aim the SPL to each speaker. Doing the sweet spot the sound will be directly coming at your seating position and the other as set by audyssey. seating areas as well.

4. As long as I am on this subject, I recall reading Audyssey's recommendation that the SPL meter not be used to adjust the level of the subwoofer. Rather the best thing to do absent a more sophisticated analysis and calibration is to adjust the level of the sub, if at all, the same general way as the other channels were adjusted. For example, if as a result of adjusting the main 7 channels the levels of 4 or 5 of them were adjusted upwards +2 it would make sense to adjust the sub trim +2 as well.

My recommendation would be to set it a little higher little by little until you here that the sub is at it's best.

The above is what I have been doing and the results seem to be pretty good. I am just trying to make sure I am doing the best I can with what I have.

If your setting are good, and you are satisfied, that is all that counts.

Regards, James

Perhaps someone else might chime in and have a better suggestion,

Good luck. Don't forget to save the 75db after you go around each speakers.

Ralph
zapper is offline  
post #4928 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 10:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telynau View Post

3. When I measure the speaker levels using the SPL meter, should the meter be pointed directly at the speaker from the main listening position? This means moving the meter around in a circle as it measures front left, center, front right, right surround, right back surround etc.

No ... you should mount the SPL meter on a tripod, point the mic straight up toward the ceiling and place the tripod so that it is in the primary listening position with the SPL meter's mic at ear height ... exactly as you would for Audyssey position #1.

You do not need to move the meter for the primary (non-subwoofer) speakers. If you follow these guidelines, you shouldn't see more than +/- 1dB change from where the Audyssey/AVR Auto setup set the trims. Well, at least I didn't in my setup.
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #4929 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 10:13 PM
Advanced Member
 
David Aiken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 625
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telynau View Post

I would like to double check two things based on my readings in this forum.

2. Do I understand correctly that to get the best results (most like the intended movie sound mix, including volume level), after running Audyssey MultiEq and saving the results I should use my Radio Shack digital SPL meter to adjust each channel to 75dB using the C, slow setting? What I am trying to understand is whether it is intended by doing so that the relative levels between channels set by Audyssey may be altered. For example, if Audyssey set the Front Left speaker at +1 and the Center at +3 (the Center being "+2" compared to the Left), should I be changing the Front Left to +3 (making the Center equal to the Left) if that is what I need to do to get a 75dB reading on the Onkyo test tone from the Front Left?

3. When I measure the speaker levels using the SPL meter, should the meter be pointed directly at the speaker from the main listening position? This means moving the meter around in a circle as it measures front left, center, front right, right surround, right back surround etc.

4. As long as I am on this subject, I recall reading Audyssey's recommendation that the SPL meter not be used to adjust the level of the subwoofer. Rather the best thing to do absent a more sophisticated analysis and calibration is to adjust the level of the sub, if at all, the same general way as the other channels were adjusted. For example, if as a result of adjusting the main 7 channels the levels of 4 or 5 of them were adjusted upwards +2 it would make sense to adjust the sub trim +2 as well.

Regards, James

Best advice: do the setup with the supplied mic and, if you like the results, leave everything alone. If you are going to change speaker level settings in the receiver's setup menu, change them all by the same amount. Do not try to adjust them using an SPL meter.

Reason: The main SPL meter people use is the RS meter and it's good for giving a rough indication for various things but it's accuracy is not good at bass frequencies. Any test tones you use will have a mix of frequencies present and if you're testing AFTER running the Audyssey setup with Audyssey active, each speaker will be likely to be producing a slightly different frequency mix due to the different corrections applied to each speaker. Even if, say, the front speakers are corrected similarly, the front and back may not be. Those differences in correction may well be enough to result in a 1 dB difference in readings with different speakers that is, quite simply, a meter error because of poor meter sensitivity at low frequencies rather than an actual difference in sound pressure level in the room.

As to where to point the meter, it depends on the meter and the design of the microphone element in it. Not all meters are the same. Read the instructions for your meter. I've got an RS analog and an equivalent but different brand digital meter. One says to point the meter vertically for grazing incidence, the other says to point it at the sound source. You do what is right for the meter you have.
David Aiken is offline  
post #4930 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 10:32 PM
Member
 
orfny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What is the best way to increase the sub volume to match my personal preference? Using the level control on my subs (I have 2) or the level on my Denon 3808? What has the least impact on the calibration results?

Thanks!
orfny is offline  
post #4931 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 10:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by orfny View Post

What is the best way to increase the sub volume to match my personal preference? Using the level control on my subs (I have 2) or the level on my Denon 3808? What has the least impact on the calibration results?

Well the odds are that if you change the gain control on the sub, you'll probably not be able to get back to the "calibrated" level without going all the way through the Audyssey setup again.
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #4932 of 72416 Old 07-06-2008, 11:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audyssey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Good point, Kal and fyzziks, and I was not clear on my point. And perhaps I misunderstand the "manual" filters to be part of Audyssey. (Are they? Guess not from your replies.) But one can fiddle with all of the speaker settings after running Audyssey and muck things up. The OP mentioned Audyssey setting his "speakers distance way out." Again, not clear on my point, there is always a reason why that would happen and posting here will always get Chris' attention; he had addressed that while I was composing my reply.

Thanks for straightening me out on the manual filters. But I'll stand by my underlying point that straight equalization cannot achieve what Audyssey does and if the automatic speaker settings look "odd" then posting here is the right thing to do.

- Jeff

Jeff,

The manual filters have nothing to do with Audyssey. MultEQ must be turned off for them to be active.

But your point is very well taken. As I mentioned in the other post, manual EQ with a few bands using tones on a CD has no chance of equalizing room acoustics problems. Such equalizers are used to equalize program material, but are totally inadequate for anything to do with room acoustical problems.

And you're right. If the distances are "way out" then something else is wrong--usually low frequency noise in the room or hum from a component like a computer power supply.

Chris

Chris

Join me for Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Follow me @ChrisAudyssey on Twitter
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
audyssey is offline  
post #4933 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 08:18 AM
Senior Member
 
mcjimsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Jeff,

If the distances are "way out" then something else is wrong--usually low frequency noise in the room or hum from a component like a computer power supply.

Chris

Chris,

What does MultiEQ "key-on" for it's distance measurement in position 1. Is it the first low freq burst or a higher freq? The Infinity RS-1b R&L FT speakers in this system are (4) 5 foot towers 2 each with 6 8" woofers and Di-Pole EMIM-EMIT line drivers for the mid tweeter towers and each time MultiEQ is run the phase between the Center and R&L FT channels ends up incorrect. Of course they are separated by about 2 feet being different towers. I suspect MultiEQ is time aligning the woofers of each channel and I must manually adjust the delays/distance to get the correct phase between channels or imaging goes out the window as far as the "Phamtom" image between the fronts and center channel is concerned? i.e. voices..

Bob
mcjimsey is offline  
post #4934 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 08:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
audyssey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimsey View Post

Chris,

What does MultiEQ "key-on" for it's distance measurement in position 1. Is it the first low freq burst or a higher freq? The Infinity RS-1b R&L FT speakers in this system are (4) 5 foot towers 2 each with 6 8" woofers and Di-Pole EMIM-EMIT line drivers for the mid tweeter towers and each time MultiEQ is run the phase between the Center and R&L FT channels ends up incorrect. Of course they are separated by about 2 feet being different towers. I suspect MultiEQ is time aligning the woofers of each channel and I must manually adjust the delays/distance to get the correct phase between channels or imaging goes out the window as far as the "Phamtom" image between the fronts and center channel is concerned? i.e. voices..

Bob

Hi Bob,

MultEQ uses low frequency information to determine distance.

I have been following your email thread with our tech support people and must admit I am a little confused about your setup. Despite the fact that your amps have lower than usual gain, the distances should be calculating correctly. The trims may be off because MultEQ is assuming a standard gain structure, but this is easily fixed after the fact.

Your comment about MultEQ "is run in the phase between the Center and R&L FT channels" has me totally baffled. Can you PM me with a description of your system that exactly describes all the connections from the 9.8 forward all the way to each speaker? The MultEQ test signals should be coming out of each channel independently. There is no "in" or "out" of phase signal being sent to the front and center channels. We have heard from several other RS-1b owners who have had very good results so I really think there is something unusual in your system setup that is causing the problems you are having.

Chris

Chris

Join me for Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Follow me @ChrisAudyssey on Twitter
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
audyssey is offline  
post #4935 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 09:21 AM
Senior Member
 
Nikonowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aiken View Post

If you want no processing at all, use one of the Denon's direct/pure direct options and in the settings menu tell it not to use Audyssey for that setting. Then switch between the Audyssey setting and the direct/pure direct one and see which you prefer. Depending on how bad your room's response is, you may be very badly surprised at the difference and what you prefer.

If you want no processing at all and a good room response, the only alternative is to go to the trouble of acoustically treating your room. That will cost you a lot more than using Audyssey, even if you go the DIY route which I initially did for my audio setup prior to swapping to professional treatments there.

You can get good results with physical acoustic treatments and you can get good results with Audyssey. I can't treat the room my HT setup is in and I'm quite happy to use Audyssey, and the results are massively better than using any of the cheesy DSP simulated environment processing options which is what I think most people are referring to when they say things sound better without processing.

One thing is certain. Things like Audyssey exist to help you get more enjoyment from your viewing/listening. They're only of value if you're happy with the results. What you need to do is to compare things with and without Audyssey and reach your own conclusions. Use it if you like the results and don't use it if you don't. If you don't like it, try the other manual EQ options the receiver offers you and try it with no processing at all using the direct or pure direct settings. The choices are there for you to try and the only opinion that counts on whether the results are worthwhile is yours. It's OK to look for advice on how to use something but don't rely advice about whether the results will be better or worse if what you're checking out is really whether or not you will prefer the results with or without something. There are some decisions you simply have to make for yourself. This is one of them.


Hi David,

Thanks for your answers - as always there are very helpful , however, one thing got me all puzzled ?

I really would like to know if I really need to rerun my initiall mic setup with my Denon reciever ? I assume that this setup is what's called Audyssey MultiEQ setup isn't? If I need to re-run, I would like to know why so ?

I thought that after changing all of my speakers and sub crossover frequencies I should be all set. I think that if I were to re-run the setup again , all of these values will change once again to different values (see my original post that has original settings values) Am I missing something here ? Some folks suggest to use SPL meter and change all speakers to be 75dB but I am not sure where these values are stored - were they auto configured when I performed the initial setup and if so, I have not changed any dB settings for any speakers so they are probably stayed the same, unless the crossover frequency changes that I have made (once you recommended to me) have altered them automatically ?

I guess I just need to know if I should re-run the initial setup and then change the speakers cross over frequency and their sizes as per your recomendations. I am convinced that if I re-run the setup , the values will be altered to what they were before.

Please help me understand all of this I am so exausted with all this knowledge

Thanks,
Nikonowski
Nikonowski is offline  
post #4936 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 10:32 AM
Senior Member
 
mcjimsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Bob,

MultEQ uses low frequency information to determine distance.

I have been following your email thread with our tech support people and must admit I am a little confused about your setup. Despite the fact that your amps have lower than usual gain, the distances should be calculating correctly. The trims may be off because MultEQ is assuming a standard gain structure, but this is easily fixed after the fact.

Your comment about MultEQ "is run in the phase between the Center and R&L FT channels" has me totally baffled. Can you PM me with a description of your system that exactly describes all the connections from the 9.8 forward all the way to each speaker? The MultEQ test signals should be coming out of each channel independently. There is no "in" or "out" of phase signal being sent to the front and center channels. We have heard from several other RS-1b owners who have had very good results so I really think there is something unusual in your system setup that is causing the problems you are having.

Chris

Chris, I am not refering to the MultiEQ tones but after the fact. Running test tones into the speakers from DVE that cycle to each position from (LT) to (LT-CTR) to (CTR) to (CTR-RT) etc. the pink noise generated from the (LT-CTR) and (RT-CTR) are not in phase after MultiEQ. I have to adjust the distance of the R&L fronts to "Center" the Phantom image. The speakers are:

------------LW-----LMT---------------CTR---------------RMT-----RW

X-OVER --------40---------------------100--------------------40

(LW, RW) LT/RT Woofer Towers
(LMT, RMT) LT/RT Mid/Tweeter Towers
(CTR) Center Channel

I was just confirming it as it makes sense if it's keyed on a low freq tone as the center line from the woofers to the mids is about 2 feet apart so the woofers are 2 feet further away from the center channel than the mids. The pink noise is a higher freq so I am putting more emphesis on the voices than the lower freqs in the phase relashonship. Does that make make sense?

Bob
mcjimsey is offline  
post #4937 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 11:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
audyssey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimsey View Post

Chris, I am not refering to the MultiEQ tones but after the fact running test tones into the speakers from DVE that cycle to each position from (LT) to (LT-CTR) to (CTR) to (CTR-RT) etc. the pink noise generated from the (LT-CTR) and (RT-CTR) are not in phase after MultiEQ. I have to adjust the distance of the R&L fronts to "Center" the Phantom image. The speakers are:

LW LMT CTR RMT RW

X-OVER 40 100 40

(LW, RW) LT/RT Woofer Towers
(LMT, RMT) LT/RT Mid/Tweeter Towers
(CTR) Center Channel

I was just confirming it as it makes sense if it's keyed on a low freq tone as the center line from the woofers to the mids is about 2 feet apart so the woofers are 2 feet further away from the center channel than the mids. The pink noise is a higher freq so I am putting more emphesis on the voices than the lower freqs in the phase relashonship. Does that make make sense?

Bob

Bob,

MultEQ does not make any phase adjustment to the speakers. It reports an error message if it thinks that a speaker is out of phase, but that's all it is: a report for you to check the speaker wiring. It also does not make any pair-wise EQ adjustments. Each speaker has its own filter so as to not disturb imaging.

The fact that the woofers are further apart from the mids can be a big problem depending on the crossover frequency between the mids and the woofers. Is MultEQ pinging the woofers separately? From your description I suspect it is not. In that case, it can't make any timing adjustments to make up for the 2' distance.

BTW, pink noise and the MultEQ test signals have exactly the same frequency content. MultEQ uses the lower part of the spectrum to determine distance, but it uses the entire spectrum to create the MultEQ correction filters.

As a final note, please keep in mind that the test signals in DVE used to determine SPL level are incorrect. They did not encode the DVD with the proper dialnorm settings and they are several dB off. It's OK if you use it for relative measurements between speakers, but not OK if you want to set absolute reference level.

Chris

Chris

Join me for Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Follow me @ChrisAudyssey on Twitter
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
audyssey is offline  
post #4938 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 11:26 AM
Senior Member
 
mcjimsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Bob,

MultEQ does not make any phase adjustment to the speakers. It reports an error message if it thinks that a speaker is out of phase, but that's all it is: a report for you to check the speaker wiring. It also does not make any pair-wise EQ adjustments. Each speaker has its own filter so as to not disturb imaging.

The fact that the woofers are further apart from the mids can be a big problem depending on the crossover frequency between the mids and the woofers. Is MultEQ pinging the woofers separately? From your description I suspect it is not. In that case, it can't make any timing adjustments to make up for the 2' distance.

BTW, pink noise and the MultEQ test signals have exactly the same frequency content. MultEQ uses the lower part of the spectrum to determine distance, but it uses the entire spectrum to create the MultEQ correction filters.

As a final note, please keep in mind that the test signals in DVE used to determine SPL level are incorrect. They did not encode the DVD with the proper dialnorm settings and they are several dB off. It's OK if you use it for relative measurements between speakers, but not OK if you want to set absolute reference level.

Chris

Chris, I PM'ed you regarding an e-mail with photo's and explanation of the system. You have confirmed what I was stating that the woofer/mid towers are a single bi-amped entity and act together (Pinged once for each set) with the Mid tweeter being crossed over somewhere around 200hz from the woofer towers. By that reasoning if I use the MultiEQ distance results the R&L to center "Phase" will be correct UP TO 200hz and out above that freq so I have to decide if I want the mid/tweeter towers OR the woofer towers in phase with the center or (as life always demands ) make a compromise..

And yes, I use the results from MultiEQ for absolute level and the tones for relative/phase corrections between channels.

Bob
mcjimsey is offline  
post #4939 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 11:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
audyssey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimsey View Post

Chris, I PM'ed you regarding an e-mail with photo's and explanation of the system. You have confirmed what I was stating that the woofer/mid towers are a single bi-amped entity and act together (Pinged once for each set) with the Mid tweeter being crossed over somewhere around 200hz from the woofer towers. By that reasoning if I use the MultiEQ distance results the R&L to center "Phase" will be correct UP TO 200hz and out above that freq so I have to decide if I want the mid/tweeter towers OR the woofer towers in phase with the center or (as life always demands ) make a compromise..

And yes, I use the results from MultiEQ for absolute level and the tones for relative/phase corrections between channels.

Bob

Understood. You are suffering from the classic car audio problem where the woofers are by your feet in the door and the tweeters are up by the dashboard. Most car systems don't let you ping the woofers and tweeters separately and thus the time delay between them can't be corrected. As the crossover frequency gets higher the problem becomes even more complicated because of the directivity issues that arise. Summation in that case is not so simple because it has a different polar pattern (i.e. angular dependence) for different frequencies.

I'll take a look at your diagram as soon as I get a chance to see the diagram for your system.

Chris

Chris

Join me for Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Follow me @ChrisAudyssey on Twitter
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
audyssey is offline  
post #4940 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 12:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,459
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Understood. You are suffering from the classic car audio problem where the woofers are by your feet in the door and the tweeters are up by the dashboard. Most car systems don't let you ping the woofers and tweeters separately and thus the time delay between them can't be corrected.

Chris, would it be useful if he moved the woofers so that they are the same physical distance from the central listener as the MTs?

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #4941 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 01:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
David Aiken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 625
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Hi David,

Thanks for your answers - as always there are very helpful , however, one thing got me all puzzled ?

I really would like to know if I really need to rerun my initiall mic setup with my Denon reciever ? I assume that this setup is what's called Audyssey MultiEQ setup isn't? If I need to re-run, I would like to know why so ?

I thought that after changing all of my speakers and sub crossover frequencies I should be all set. I think that if I were to re-run the setup again , all of these values will change once again to different values (see my original post that has original settings values) Am I missing something here ? Some folks suggest to use SPL meter and change all speakers to be 75dB but I am not sure where these values are stored - were they auto configured when I performed the initial setup and if so, I have not changed any dB settings for any speakers so they are probably stayed the same, unless the crossover frequency changes that I have made (once you recommended to me) have altered them automatically ?

I guess I just need to know if I should re-run the initial setup and then change the speakers cross over frequency and their sizes as per your recomendations. I am convinced that if I re-run the setup , the values will be altered to what they were before.

Please help me understand all of this I am so exausted with all this knowledge

Thanks,
Nikonowski

No, you don't have to rerun the setup after changing things like crossovers. Provided you did the first setup process properly and stored the results at the appropriate stage during the process, the Audyssey filters are still stored and available. Crossover settings don't change the filters, and neither do speaker level settings.

The reason for not changing speaker level settings individually is that the settings are calculated during that setup process to ensure that the speaker levels are balanced. Changing all settings by the same amount preserves the balance but doesn't change anything much apart from the volume setting you use to achieve a particular SPL. Changing the settings of different speakers changes the balance between the speakers.

There's not much point to my view to trying to set things to a particular SPL like 75 dB. You adjust the volume level a bit for different movies anyway, or at least I do, so you're still going to do that even if you change the settings. My view is simply let Audyssey do the speaker balances and corrections for room EQ and adjust the volume for the level you want on each movie. These setup processes are supposed to make things easier so why complicate them?
David Aiken is offline  
post #4942 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 01:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audyssey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimsey View Post

Chris, I PM'ed you regarding an e-mail with photo's and explanation of the system.

Bob

Bob,

I have looked at your setup and have the following comments:

--Your woofer tower placement is symmetric (per Kal's comment) and so that's the best you can do with that two tower (per side) system

--The before/after results from the MultEQ calibration look quite good. However, there are two major improvements to make:

a) the woofer level is 15 dB too high. Even with the correction MultEQ tries to make in order to flatten the response, the result is still bass that is too high. Unless this is some sort of preference, I would highly recommend adjusting the woofer tower gain downwards by 15 dB or so. It is just overwhelming the measurements

b) you have two side-by-side horizontal center channels! That is basically the worse possible thing one could do for a center channel. Horizontal speakers suffer greatly from directivity issues because of lobing. Adding two of them in parallel amplifies these problems greatly. You can see that in the "before" measurement on your graphs. There is a 10 dB bump at 150 Hz and comb filtering above 3 kHz (dips and peaks). MultEQ tries to flatten that, but the off axis problems will still remain. I am almost certain that the imaging issues you are having between L-C and C-R are largely due to the dual center channel.

Chris

Chris

Join me for Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Follow me @ChrisAudyssey on Twitter
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
audyssey is offline  
post #4943 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 03:09 PM
Senior Member
 
mcjimsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Bob,

I have looked at your setup and have the following comments:

--Your woofer tower placement is symmetric (per Kal's comment) and so that's the best you can do with that two tower (per side) system

--The before/after results from the MultEQ calibration look quite good. However, there are two major improvements to make:

a) the woofer level is 15 dB too high. Even with the correction MultEQ tries to make in order to flatten the response, the result is still bass that is too high. Unless this is some sort of preference, I would highly recommend adjusting the woofer tower gain downwards by 15 dB or so. It is just overwhelming the measurements

b) you have two side-by-side horizontal center channels! That is basically the worse possible thing one could do for a center channel. Horizontal speakers suffer greatly from directivity issues because of lobing. Adding two of them in parallel amplifies these problems greatly. You can see that in the "before" measurement on your graphs. There is a 10 dB bump at 150 Hz and comb filtering above 3 kHz (dips and peaks). MultEQ tries to flatten that, but the off axis problems will still remain. I am almost certain that the imaging issues you are having between L-C and C-R are largely due to the dual center channel.

Chris


a) Remember that these are crossed over at about 200hz so lowering them causes a huge deficit in the middle freq's (I have tried) I have gotten around it by crossing them over @ 40hz and with the SMS-1 analyzer appears to be +/- about 4 db from 15 to 200hz w MultiEQ

b) I do recognize that issue and what you recommend is just a single center channel even though it IS designed with 2 woofers in horizontal axis? I do ALL of my listening from 1 position so is this still an issue if the outer woofers are the same distance to the main position?? What about 1 above the screen and 1 below facing upward??

BTW, I thought I would pass along my mic positions keeping in mind MY spot is #2 and all of these are based inside my reclining couch below with the first 3 positions about 2 inch's above the back of the couch and the remainder at ear level (Forgive the drawing...)


-----------------------------------------------
|---------------------------------------------|
|---------5------------4--------------6-------|
|---------------------------------------------|
|----10-------9----8-------7-----------------|
|---------------------------------------------|
|--------(2)-----------1--------------3-------|
-----------------------------------------------

Also, have you given any thought to why it takes me 15 attempts to get thru position 1 without the error??

THANKS, bob..
mcjimsey is offline  
post #4944 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 03:13 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,459
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimsey View Post

b) I do recognize that issue and what you recommend is just a single center channel even though it IS designed with 2 woofers in horizontal axis? I do ALL of my listening from 1 position so is this still an issue if the outer woofers are the same distance to the main position?? What about 1 above the screen and 1 below facing upward??

The issue is less about woofers than the displacement of multiple mid and treble drivers since the problem is wavelength-related. One center is better than two. Vertical is better than horizontal. All is not black-and-white but your current arrangement is farthest from optimum.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #4945 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 03:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Haverhill, MA
Posts: 1,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob,

Curious to know why you choose to use two center speakers in the first place since most expert suggest using only one. Even big cinema only use one big center speaker.
rveras is offline  
post #4946 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 03:49 PM
Senior Member
 
mcjimsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Bob,

I have looked at your setup and have the following comments:

--Your woofer tower placement is symmetric (per Kal's comment) and so that's the best you can do with that two tower (per side) system

--The before/after results from the MultEQ calibration look quite good. However, there are two major improvements to make:

a) the woofer level is 15 dB too high. Even with the correction MultEQ tries to make in order to flatten the response, the result is still bass that is too high. Unless this is some sort of preference, I would highly recommend adjusting the woofer tower gain downwards by 15 dB or so. It is just overwhelming the measurements

b) you have two side-by-side horizontal center channels! That is basically the worse possible thing one could do for a center channel. Horizontal speakers suffer greatly from directivity issues because of lobing. Adding two of them in parallel amplifies these problems greatly. You can see that in the "before" measurement on your graphs. There is a 10 dB bump at 150 Hz and comb filtering above 3 kHz (dips and peaks). MultEQ tries to flatten that, but the off axis problems will still remain. I am almost certain that the imaging issues you are having between L-C and C-R are largely due to the dual center channel.

Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by rveras View Post

Bob,

Curious to know why you choose to use two center speakers in the first place since most expert suggest using only one. Even big cinema only use one big center speaker.

Why, isn't MORE better I guess not..
mcjimsey is offline  
post #4947 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 04:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Haverhill, MA
Posts: 1,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimsey View Post

Why, isn't MORE better I guess not..


No when it comes to center speakers
rveras is offline  
post #4948 of 72416 Old 07-07-2008, 05:25 PM
Member
 
HDMI_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Chris,

I am interested in one of the upcoming Denon AV receiver model 1909 and I have following question. Hope you can help me on this.

According to the AVR-1909 product brochure :

MultEQ Auto Setup and RoomEQ
- Tower type microphone for more accurate measuring
- Up to six measurement points
- Highlevel resolution filters for satellite speakers and also subwoofer

source : www.usa.denon.com/AVR-1909_Lit702.pdf

Where as http://www.audyssey.com/technology/multEQ_products.html has the following :
MultEQ
MultEQ takes up to 6 room position measurements, and uses mid-level resolution filters for satellites and subwoofers.


Is Denon implemented 8X resolution filters for both satellite speakers and to subwoofer ?

I appreciate your feedback.

Regards & Thank You.
HDMI_13 is offline  
post #4949 of 72416 Old 07-08-2008, 06:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
audyssey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI_13 View Post

Chris,

I am interested in one of the upcoming Denon AV receiver model 1909 and I have following question. Hope you can help me on this.

The AVR-1909 has MultEQ and that uses the filter resolutions that we quote on the Audyssey website that you referenced. I guess that brochure language is somewhat more "flexible"

All products with the MultEQ logo have the same exact filter resolution. The subwoofer resolution is indeed higher and is the same as what is found in the MultEQ XT products.

Chris

Chris

Join me for Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Follow me @ChrisAudyssey on Twitter
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
audyssey is offline  
post #4950 of 72416 Old 07-08-2008, 06:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
audyssey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjimsey View Post

Also, have you given any thought to why it takes me 15 attempts to get thru position 1 without the error??

THANKS, bob..

Bob,

What input is the 9.8 set to before you start the MultEQ calibration? We have contacted Onkyo about your ambient noise issue and there may be a possible explanation, but it is still being investigated by Onkyo.

Chris

Chris

Join me for Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Follow me @ChrisAudyssey on Twitter
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
audyssey is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Audyssey , Receivers Amplifiers , Kef Kht1005 2se 5 1 Subwoofer Satellite System With C4 Subwoofer Gloss White , 5 6 7 1 7 2 Or 8 1 8 2 One Or Two Subwoofer Compatible 16 Banana Post 2 Rca Speaker Wall Plate For H
Gear in this thread - Kht1005 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off