"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1682 - AVS Forum
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post #50431 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


We have used R/S analog meters for decades at Dolby, and I still use them in my theater, and find them totally reliable for balancing speakers. If all the levels are equal, but differ from Audyssey, no need to adjust, as it's only overall loudness at issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It is also very difficult to put the SPL meter in the exact same spot as you had the Audyssey mic in.

The Rat Shack meter is good for looking at relative levels (this speaker is +2dB compared with that speaker) but not so good at setting absolute levels (this speaker is reading 72dB). The meter is also more or less entirely useless for setting subwoofer levels.

The Rat Shack meter should be placed in the exact spot that the Audyssey mic was in for the first test position and pointed towards the ceiling. Any other position or orientation will give a skewed, and therefore useless, result.

Thank all you guys for such a quick response.


Roger, Typically the Surrounds and surround backs were down by 3-4db. I assume I should just adjust them up relative to the other speaker levels. I"ll ditch the AIX calibration tones for the internal ones.

Keith, I'll make sure to point the mic upwards and leave the sub trim alone as I am already waking up the GF with late night MW3 sessions.

Devo
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post #50432 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 11:18 AM
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Well, I was on the Dolby Volume bandwagon for a while, but after an issue with Dolby Volume at, or near 0db ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21649602 ) I'm back on the DEQ wagon set at RL0db!

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post #50433 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumble Devo View Post


Keith, I'll make sure to point the mic upwards and leave the sub trim alone as I am already waking up the GF with late night MW3 sessions.




Do see Roger's comments on the mic orientation too - Roger has forgotten more than I will ever know

My point was that in a comparison of any sort between a Rat Shack meter and the Audyssey mic, they would need to be in the same position and orientation for the comparison to be meaningful. But trust Audyssey's measurements more.
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post #50434 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumble Devo View Post

Thank all you guys for such a quick response.


Roger, Typically the Surrounds and surround backs were down by 3-4db. I assume I should just adjust them up relative to the other speaker levels. I"ll ditch the AIX calibration tones for the internal ones.

Keith, I'll make sure to point the mic upwards and leave the sub trim alone as I am already waking up the GF with late night MW3 sessions.

Devo - have you purchased and downloaded the Dynamic EQ/Volume upgrade for your 3808ci? If not, then you should, as Dynamic EQ should solve your surround envelopment problems.

as others have noted, the SPL meter will be very accurate for *relative* level matching (as long as you make sure it is used properly and in the same place as mic position #1) but not as accurate as the Audyssey mic for setting *absolute* level. So it is normal after Audyssey for all speakers to measure, say, 71dB.... but they should not vary (i.e. some are 70dB and others are 74dB).

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post #50435 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 12:07 PM
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Devo, do you own the 3808..... If so, GET IT !!!!! I love Dynamic EQ, period
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post #50436 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Do see Roger's comments on the mic orientation too - Roger has forgotten more than I will ever know

My point was that in a comparison of any sort between a Rat Shack meter and the Audyssey mic, they would need to be in the same position and orientation for the comparison to be meaningful. But trust Audyssey's measurements more.

Agreed. With wide-band signals, the polar sensitivity of the two devices will be very different, if only because of the large difference in diameter of the mic tip.

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post #50437 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


Usually, internal tones are best, and some discs are equally good. But not AIX. It uses wideband noise, which is pretty useless for channel balance cals because response errors at freq extremes will influence the levels, which are best matched in the midrange. That's why test tones use filtered pink noise. As an aside, the AIX tones are "85 dB" while all others use 75 dB. I guess Mr. Waldrep didn't get the memo.

I'm confused about this and, in fact, posted in another forum about using this technique.

I was under the impression that the receiver BYPASSES Audyssey correction techniques when playing back internal test tones. So, if one was to calibrate the system using Audyssey and then go back to check trim levels with a SPL meter using the AVR's internal test tones, you are essential comparing apples to oranges. If you were to change your trim levels doing it this method it would also throw off Audyssey's calibrations.

Wouldn't you have to play test tones from an external source so that Audyssey can apply correction to that? That way you can then adjust your trim levels knowing that Audyssey is in full effect in the background and still adjusting the avr accordingly.

??
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post #50438 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

I'm confused about this and, in fact, posted in another forum about using this technique.

I was under the impression that the receiver BYPASSES Audyssey correction techniques when playing back internal test tones. So, if one was to calibrate the system using Audyssey and then go back to check trim levels with a SPL meter using the AVR's internal test tones, you are essential comparing apples to oranges. If you were to change your trim levels doing it this method it would also throw off Audyssey's calibrations.

Wouldn't you have to play test tones from an external source so that Audyssey can apply correction to that? That way you can then adjust your trim levels knowing that Audyssey is in full effect in the background and still adjusting the avr accordingly.

??

That can't be right can it? The point of the test tones after Audyssey has set the trims is that they will all be set to the same SPL wrt to the MLP. The trims have been adjusted by Audyssey during the calibration, and it is the trims that are responsible for the loudness of each tone.

You're right that changing the trims will 'throw off' the Audyssey calibration in the sense that it will no longer be at Reference if any of the trims is adjusted. But the EQ filters won't be affected.
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post #50439 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 01:25 PM
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The process of setting speaker levels has nothing to do with Audyssey EQ. Audyssey does not apply any EQ when setting speaker levels. The underlying basic methodology of setting speaker levels is the same using Audyssey as it is using the internal test tones and an SPL meter except that Audyssey uses a more sophisticated and accurate method(sine swept full-band pink noise impulse and likely a more accurate mic).

So no need to worry about bypassing Audyssey, its irrelevant.

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post #50440 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That can't be right can it? The point of the test tones after Audyssey has set the trims is that they will all be set to the same SPL wrt to the MLP. The trims have been adjusted by Audyssey during the calibration, and it is the trims that are responsible for the loudness of each tone.

You’re right that changing the trims will 'throw off' the Audyssey calibration in the sense that it will no longer be at Reference if any of the trims is adjusted. But the EQ filters won't be affected.

I don't know. That is why I posted.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=38765

Midway down the first post is what I was referencing to:

Quote:


If you are trying to double check the results of the built-in auto calibration program, using the internal test tones of the A/V receiver/processor will not be entirely accurate since the test tone mode bypasses all post processing. It is better to use calibration discs and with your desired EQ mode engaged to fine tune your system.

The guy that wrote that is basically a "genius" when it comes to audio so that is why I was asking. I have a post started over on that forum in hopes he will answer.

I guess my questions is, why wouldn't the EQ calculation be thrown off if you are indeed changing trim levels BEFORE EQ is being engaged which is what you would be doing if one changes the trim levels of each speaker using the internal test tones? Aren't you, by definition, changing how the speaker sounds when you adjust the trim level? If that is the case wouldn't the EQ be different for a speaker that is trimmed up/down to 75db SPL. Wouldn't you want to apply EQ AFTER the speaker is trimmed properly to 75db NOT before??
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post #50441 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

I don't know. That is why I posted.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=38765

Midway down the first post is what I was referencing to:



The guy that wrote that is basically a "genius" when it comes to audio so that is why I was asking. I have a post started over on that forum in hopes he will answer.

I guess my questions is, why wouldn't the EQ calculation be thrown off if you are indeed changing trim levels BEFORE EQ is being engaged which is what you would be doing if one changes the trim levels of each speaker using the internal test tones? Aren't you, by definition, changing how the speaker sounds when you adjust the trim level? If that is the case wouldn't the EQ be different for a speaker that is trimmed up/down to 75db SPL. Wouldn't you want to apply EQ AFTER the speaker is trimmed properly to 75db NOT before??

I think this is being over-thought. Any meter you are likely to have will be good for matching speakers to the same level, but not for determining the absolute level. So internal or external test signals I don't think will matter.

On top of that, I stopped using the Radio shack meter a long time ago. Now I use my ears with actual content. If I want a more front-centric experience, I bump the surrounds down by .5dB. I have never felt the need to raise the surrounds, nor have I ever felt that the surrounds NEEDED to be changed because Audyssey got it wrong. I am using Audyssy Pro, so maybe that has something to do with me feeling that my balance is pretty much dead on.
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post #50442 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post




Do see Roger's comments on the mic orientation too - Roger has forgotten more than I will ever know

My point was that in a comparison of any sort between a Rat Shack meter and the Audyssey mic, they would need to be in the same position and orientation for the comparison to be meaningful. But trust Audyssey's measurements more.

Keith,
I did see Rogers comments. I'll aim the meter both ways tonight to test.

I meant to put this in my last post but got distracted at work. When I run test tones I setup my boom mic stand, run Audyssey swiveling the stand at the neck and not moving the base to sweep the 8 positions. When complete I then attach the R/S meter on the same stand in the same MLP position, more or less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Devo - have you purchased and downloaded the Dynamic EQ/Volume upgrade for your 3808ci? If not, then you should, as Dynamic EQ should solve your surround envelopment problems.

as others have noted, the SPL meter will be very accurate for *relative* level matching (as long as you make sure it is used properly and in the same place as mic position #1) but not as accurate as the Audyssey mic for setting *absolute* level. So it is normal after Audyssey for all speakers to measure, say, 71dB.... but they should not vary (i.e. some are 70dB and others are 74dB).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Devo, do you own the 3808..... If so, GET IT !!!!! I love Dynamic EQ, period

Yup, I have the DynEQ and Vol upgrade. I like it for games, and some music depending on the source, but not for Movies or TV

I'll use the base calibration for setting absolute levels tonight (I'll average the output of two speakers or something on base cal.), but yes some speakers (mainly the surrounds) were off by 3-4 dbs.

Thanks again for your help.

Devo
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post #50443 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

IIRC that's not the case, according to what Chris has said, i.e., Audyssey doesn't correct below the low freq rolloff point so as to not overdrive the woofers.

Actually, there's the normalization issue that would allow boosting low frequencies below the lower -3dB point. If you have, say, a room hump in the first measurement position, that will "artificially" bump the measured SPL. Audyssey will then raise all frequencies outside the hump by as much as 9dB to get to the measured SPL, including below the lower -3dB point.
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post #50444 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post


I don't know. That is why I posted.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=38765

Midway down the first post is what I was referencing to:

The guy that wrote that is basically a "genius" when it comes to audio so that is why I was asking. I have a post started over on that forum in hopes he will answer.

I guess my questions is, why wouldn't the EQ calculation be thrown off if you are indeed changing trim levels BEFORE EQ is being engaged which is what you would be doing if one changes the trim levels of each speaker using the internal test tones? Aren't you, by definition, changing how the speaker sounds when you adjust the trim level? If that is the case wouldn't the EQ be different for a speaker that is trimmed up/down to 75db SPL. Wouldn't you want to apply EQ AFTER the speaker is trimmed properly to 75db NOT before??

EQ calculation can be done at various trim levels. In other words, trim level does not effect the EQ applied to any channel. The EQ would NOT be different for a speaker trimmed up/down to 75 dB. Don't confuse speaker level calibration and EQ, they're separate.

Besides, the only way to change the trim level on an Audyssey EQ'd system is to do it AFTER Audyssey has run since Audyssey will always adjust trims automatically. The only question is whether to adjust trim by bypassing Audyssey or with it engaged. The only advantage to doing it with Audyssey engaged is that the FR would contain less significant peaks or nulls that could impact the accuracy of the test tones and also it is possible that significant EQ changes to the FR curve could change the measured speaker output level(depending on the composition and frequency range of the test tone).

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post #50445 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

I don't know. That is why I posted.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=38765

Midway down the first post is what I was referencing to:



The guy that wrote that is basically a "genius" when it comes to audio so that is why I was asking. I have a post started over on that forum in hopes he will answer.

I guess my questions is, why wouldn't the EQ calculation be thrown off if you are indeed changing trim levels BEFORE EQ is being engaged which is what you would be doing if one changes the trim levels of each speaker using the internal test tones? Aren't you, by definition, changing how the speaker sounds when you adjust the trim level? If that is the case wouldn't the EQ be different for a speaker that is trimmed up/down to 75db SPL. Wouldn't you want to apply EQ AFTER the speaker is trimmed properly to 75db NOT before??


I think this is probably already adequately covered, but turning up the volume on one speaker does not "change the way it sounds." That's essentially what the trim levels do - - turn individual speakers up or down.

EQ changes the frequency response of the speakers. That changes how they sound. For example, if you pur a 10 dB peak at around 300 Hz (sort of the presence and/or sibilance region) your speakers will likely sound painfully bright with overactive S sounds and the like. Now play a test tone, especially something like pink noise with that 10 dB spike. The spike will change the total SPL of the test tone through the speaker, even though the EQ covers (let's say) less than an octave and the vast majority of the speaker's output is identical to the noneqed version. Theoretically, enough, or strong enough, EQ increases or decreases at specific frequencies might change the measured SPL of a given speaker with test tone A versus it's SPL with the same test tone, but without EQ. Thus, theoretically, setting the trims with the EQ engagede may be more accurate.
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post #50446 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 02:56 PM
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How does leather couches affect the readings of Audissey? More so, how does one define Ear Level?

Sitting on a Sofa that is 4" from the back wall, I have two options:

"Sitting Up Right" - Where my ear is over the sofa's backrest.
"Comfortable Slouching" - Where my ear is 2" in front of the sofa's backrest.

Which measurement is best to take?
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post #50447 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 03:07 PM
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unfortunately, with a leather couch and seating so close to the back wall, so your actual head position is a bad place to measure in either case.

One rule of thumb with measurement is to avoid reflective surfaces (leather couch) and room boundaries (back wall), so I would actually recommend you make your #1 measurement be slightly forward of where your head literally is during listening, preferably 18" or so from the back wall. That will reduce the pernicious effects of the boundaries and reflections off the leather couch. Some people also will temporarily throw a soft blanket or towel over the couch back to prevent the reflections that will cause comb filtering artifacts and screw up the high freq's in the calibration.

In terms of actual height, you don't have to get too crazy about it. Pick a height that is a good representation of where listeners' heads will be in actual use.

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post #50448 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

How does leather couches affect the readings of Audissey? More so, how does one define Ear Level?

Sitting on a Sofa that is 4" from the back wall, I have two options:

"Sitting Up Right" - Where my ear is over the sofa's backrest.
"Comfortable Slouching" - Where my ear is 2" in front of the sofa's backrest.

Which measurement is best to take?

Neither. The mic would be too close to reflective surfaces. To avoid measurement anomalies, you want the Audyssey measurement/calibration mic a minimum of 18" away from large acoustically reflective surfaces such as rear walls and leather couch backs.

Although it won't be where your ears are, place the mic forward of your seating position so that it is at ear height for the way you normally sit, and no closer than 18" away from the closest wall or couch surfaces.


Max

P.S.*ninja edit* LOL, well there you have it, confirmation of typical recommended practices wrt to Audyssey calibration by 2 people typing at the same time
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post #50449 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 03:17 PM
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I appreciate your help guys! I probably was over thinking it!

I'll adjust trim level after Audyssey calibration and get on with my life..
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post #50450 of 72290 Old 02-15-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

I appreciate your help guys! I probably was over thinking it!

I'll adjust trim level after Audyssey calibration and get on with my life..

Or just get on ...
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post #50451 of 72290 Old 02-16-2012, 03:26 AM
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Hi, it's a bit of topic, I know..... But this thread is more "alive" than the official velodyne . Do any of you know where to point the mic supplied with my DD subwoofer, during setup? Should I point it towards the ceiling, or just aim it at the subwoofer? I think most peoria just place it the couch, MLP.....

kindly
Jan
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post #50452 of 72290 Old 02-16-2012, 04:12 AM
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I left on the over drive of the sub issue after abusive kgveteran and peper posts (deleted by mods) but fwiw here is AskAudyssey response.

"Hi Gary,
MultEQ applies a combination of boost and cut. 9 dB is the max--typically the adjustments are smaller. In any case, there is no issue with taxing the subwoofer. The algorithm finds the roll off point of the speaker and does not apply any boost below that point.

Best regards,
Chris Kyriakakis
Founder and CTO, Audyssey"
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post #50453 of 72290 Old 02-16-2012, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

How does leather couches affect the readings of Audissey? More so, how does one define Ear Level?

Sitting on a Sofa that is 4" from the back wall, I have two options:

"Sitting Up Right" - Where my ear is over the sofa's backrest.
"Comfortable Slouching" - Where my ear is 2" in front of the sofa's backrest.

Which measurement is best to take?

Batpig (and Max) has already given you good advice, but I’d just add something from actual personal experience: that my chairs are also close up to the back wall (no choice) and I set the mic about 18 inches forward of the wall. This means the mic is not in the exact spot my ears are when listening but this compromise better than having the mic too close to the wall. I also have heavy drapes on the back wall in order to minimise reflections from it. Using this method, I do get a very satisfactory calibration.
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post #50454 of 72290 Old 02-16-2012, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnernorth View Post

Hi, it's a bit of topic, I know..... But this thread is more "alive" than the official velodyne . Do any of you know where to point the mic supplied with my DD subwoofer, during setup? Should I point it towards the ceiling, or just aim it at the subwoofer? I think most people just place it in the couch, MLP.....

I've tried different placements of the mic, and as I see it, it doesn't matter whether it's positioned one way or another, it confirms that low frequencies are non directional...I think..... :-) :-)

kindly
Jan
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post #50455 of 72290 Old 02-16-2012, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I left on the over drive of the sub issue after abusive kgveteran and peper posts (deleted by mods) but fwiw here is AskAudyssey response.

"Hi Gary,
MultEQ applies a combination of boost and cut. 9 dB is the max--typically the adjustments are smaller. In any case, there is no issue with taxing the subwoofer. The algorithm finds the roll off point of the speaker and does not apply any boost below that point.

Best regards,
Chris Kyriakakis
Founder and CTO, Audyssey"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneV View Post

Actually, there's the normalization issue that would allow boosting low frequencies below the lower -3dB point. If you have, say, a room hump in the first measurement position, that will "artificially" bump the measured SPL. Audyssey will then raise all frequencies outside the hump by as much as 9dB to get to the measured SPL, including below the lower -3dB point.

I don't know if history is being revised by Chris or whether semantics (read: technicalities) are being used, but Rene's explanation is spot on ... and many have had this problem. MultEQ does not boost more than 9dB in the process of equalizing, but normalization is another matter.

Jeff
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post #50456 of 72290 Old 02-16-2012, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I left on the over drive of the sub issue after abusive kgveteran and peper posts (deleted by mods) but fwiw here is AskAudyssey response.

"Hi Gary,
MultEQ applies a combination of boost and cut. 9 dB is the max--typically the adjustments are smaller. In any case, there is no issue with taxing the subwoofer. The algorithm finds the roll off point of the speaker and does not apply any boost below that point.

Best regards,
Chris Kyriakakis
Founder and CTO, Audyssey"

Fine, but what if the area of boost is above the subs knee and within its bandwidth, such as the 55hz in question. As mentioned in the said abusive post, this must be reviewed case by case, and in this case, boosting +9db at 55hz and the owner has a 8" subwoofer, will cause a problem....

I'm sure there is some disclaimer that proper set up to begin with will prevent this situation, but ......
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post #50457 of 72290 Old 02-16-2012, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I left on the over drive of the sub issue after abusive kgveteran and peper posts (deleted by mods) but fwiw here is AskAudyssey response.

"Hi Gary,
MultEQ applies a combination of boost and cut. 9 dB is the max--typically the adjustments are smaller. In any case, there is no issue with taxing the subwoofer. The algorithm finds the roll off point of the speaker and does not apply any boost below that point.

Best regards,
Chris Kyriakakis
Founder and CTO, Audyssey"

Please review these posts:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16982682

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16984527

The second post is from Chris K. directly CONFIRMING Larry Chanin's explanation of the boost added by the normalization process.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #50458 of 72290 Old 02-16-2012, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Fine, but what if the area of boost is above the subs knee and within its bandwidth, such as the 55hz in question. As mentioned in the said abusive post, this must be reviewed case by case, and in this case, boosting +9db at 55hz and the owner has a 8" subwoofer, will cause a problem....

I'm sure there is some disclaimer that proper set up to begin with will prevent this situation, but ......

MultEQ requires 9 dB of headroom to avoid clipping so Audyssey drops the digital signal level by 9 dB before MultEQ is applied. Then the 9 dB boost is added back in the analog domain of the amplifier.

But increasing the sub's trim level after setup may get you into trouble.
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post #50459 of 72290 Old 02-16-2012, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

MultEQ requires 9 dB of headroom to avoid clipping so Audyssey drops the digital signal level by 9 dB before MultEQ is applied. Then the 9 dB boost is added back in the analog domain of the amplifier.

But increasing the sub's trim level after setup may get you into trouble.

Dropping everything 9dB, applying correction and then raising everything 9dB can result in more than 9dB boost at any given frequency. I didn't think that this was questioned anymore.
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post #50460 of 72290 Old 02-16-2012, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Please review these posts:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16982682

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16984527

The second post is from Chris K. directly CONFIRMING Larry Chanin's explanation of the boost added by the normalization process.

Craig

Here he confirms it again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

The normalisation process is bumping the overall sub level up by 10db to make the perceived loudness the same as Audyssey off. This is performed on all channels(individually I believe) and is dependant on the filters applied so the overall system balance is correct.

There is one problem with this method, and that is that the frequencies above and, more importantly, below the rolloff(as determined by Audyssey) can(not always because this is dependant on the filters used) be boosted as in your case by 10db. A 10db boost below 15Hz will draw more power from the subs amp and will reduce the headroom of the sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

IMHO the normalisation process should be scrapped and Audyssey's filters should be calculated to produce an equal loudness response to Audyssey off on their own. Or Audyssey should add a filter at the upper and lower rolloff to negate the normalisation processes effect on those regions.

That is a good suggestion. We are actually testing something along those lines that looks promising.

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