"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1684 - AVS Forum
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post #50491 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 03:16 PM
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I havent seen any furher mention of it, but then it's not something that would get announced ... just quietly implemented. With that thinking, I doubt that they would retroactively fix kit already in the field. Way too sticky a wicket.
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post #50492 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I havent seen any furher mention of it, but then it's not something that would get announced ... just quietly implemented. With that thinking, I doubt that they would retroactively fix kit already in the field. Way too sticky a wicket.

I think at this point we are like the guy who is complaining that his 4 stroke engine is not running smoothly, kinda like missing one or even two strokes!!
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post #50493 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 05:56 PM
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Denon 2313 owner. Where do I find the listening positions? I cant find the numbers in the manual, booklet, setup screen, etc.
If I Google "audyssey listening positions" I get nothing. If I search the manual for Listening Position I get nothing. Where can I find this?
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post #50494 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Denon 2313 owner. Where do I find the listening positions? I cant find the numbers in the manual, booklet, setup screen, etc.
If I Google "audyssey listening positions" I get nothing. If I search the manual for Listening Position I get nothing. Where can I find this?

The information you are looking for, plus a lot more, can be found in the first posting in this thread.
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post #50495 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 06:08 PM
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I thought I found it at:

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq/how-to

but the very first screen of the Denon setup shows different measurement positions.

I took a picture of them, and will proceed from there. Thank you.
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post #50496 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 06:13 PM
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I have an Onkyo AVR with Audyssey 2EQ. Speakers are average, subwoofer is ancient but reliable; all-in-all an audio setup that is nothing special. Audyssey pretty much places the basic settings spot-on (double-checked with a RS SPL), so this isn't really a problem with Audyssey per-se as opposed to a conflict with my equipment.

Audyssey (or Onkyo) sets my global crossover setting to 150hz. While my speakers are capable of lower, this result is probably due to the non-ideal placement of the center channel speaker. Manual frequency sweep measurements done with the same speaker setup before with my older AVR (and without Audyssey) resulted in a crossover setting of 120hz, as that's where I found the roll-off to begin (again, thanks to center speaker). Now the problem.

I do not dispute Audyssey's results, however the LPF on the subwoofer itself is set to 150hz, the highest it can go. Back when I did the manual frequency sweeps, whenever the crossover settings in the AVR overlapped the Sub's LPF, there was a non-linear response within that frequency range. Now I have not tested it with the current setup, but the same result will likely occur, considering Audyssey does not know about the subwoofer's LPF effect. The subwoofer itself has a frequency response (tested and confirmed) of 20hz to 150hz.

Considering this, should I lower the AVR crossover to 120hz and live with the null below 150hz (probably just from the center channel speaker), and if doing so, does it throw off the entire speaker EQ or just where it was set to roll-off? Only an assumption, but if Audyssey EQ's the roll-off, and frequency response is being skewed by the overlap of the sub's crossover in that range, than there really isn't any EQ at all, correct?

Many thanks in advance.
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post #50497 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

I thought I found it at:

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq/how-to

but the very first screen of the Denon setup shows different measurement positions.

I took a picture of them, and will proceed from there. Thank you.

It's really worth your while to read the Audyssey setup guide linked in the first post of this thread. It contans a lot of detailed wisdom, much of it from Audyssey, about what the system does, and how to maximize results in your room.
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post #50498 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 06:34 PM
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Audyssey Listening Locations are at http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq/how-to and conflict with the Denon 2312 on-screen-setup.

I'm just posting it so that others can find this in the future.
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post #50499 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

I've read it several times in the past, but I have a new receiver with XT and more listening positions. Turns out the Denon GUI lists listening positions #1-6, but is now trying to measure #7. I'll continue reading and searching for this information. As of now I still cant find the answers that I'm looking for. If anyone can help please do.

I'm trying to find the Listening Positions 1-8. The map http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq/how-to conflicts with the Denon on-screen-setup.

If the above map is accurate, do positions 7-8 have to be at ear height or above the sofa back?

The Audyssey Setup Guide linked in the first thread has a picture of the measurement positions for MultEQ XT, showing 8 positions.
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post #50500 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 06:52 PM
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In the Audyssey Setup Guide the Listening Positions are listed as "Audyssey Measurement Locations (2).pdf"

Which is why searching for "Listening Position" didn't lead me to it.
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post #50501 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

In the Audyssey Setup Guide the Listening Positions are listed as "Audyssey Measurement Locations (2).pdf"

Which is why searching for "Listening Position" didn't lead me to it.

Probably has something to do with your confusion about nomenclature.

Listening positions = wherever you listen to the system from, aka seating locations. If you happen to listen to the system while on the other side of the room, this would be a listening position. Heck if you tend to listen to the system while in another room, technically, that would be a listening position too.

Measurement locations = placement positions where the Audyssey calibration mic should be placed for optimal results.

They are 2 different things. If you've read the Audyssey setup guides and tips, you'd know now that you don't want to place the mic only at seating/listening positions, and in fact, there may be some listening positions you should never place the measurement mic as it would throw off the calibration.

As with most things, it helps to know what to specifically search for.


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post #50502 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1981 View Post

I have an Onkyo AVR with Audyssey 2EQ. Speakers are average, subwoofer is ancient but reliable; all-in-all an audio setup that is nothing special. Audyssey pretty much places the basic settings spot-on (double-checked with a RS SPL), so this isn't really a problem with Audyssey per-se as opposed to a conflict with my equipment.

Audyssey (or Onkyo) sets my global crossover setting to 150hz. While my speakers are capable of lower, this result is probably due to the non-ideal placement of the center channel speaker. Manual frequency sweep measurements done with the same speaker setup before with my older AVR (and without Audyssey) resulted in a crossover setting of 120hz, as that's where I found the roll-off to begin (again, thanks to center speaker). Now the problem.

I do not dispute Audyssey's results, however the LPF on the subwoofer itself is set to 150hz, the highest it can go. Back when I did the manual frequency sweeps, whenever the crossover settings in the AVR overlapped the Sub's LPF, there was a non-linear response within that frequency range. Now I have not tested it with the current setup, but the same result will likely occur, considering Audyssey does not know about the subwoofer's LPF effect. The subwoofer itself has a frequency response (tested and confirmed) of 20hz to 150hz.

Considering this, should I lower the AVR crossover to 120hz and live with the null below 150hz (probably just from the center channel speaker), and if doing so, does it throw off the entire speaker EQ or just where it was set to roll-off? Only an assumption, but if Audyssey EQ's the roll-off, and frequency response is being skewed by the overlap of the sub's crossover in that range, than there really isn't any EQ at all, correct?

Many thanks in advance.

If it were me, I would lower the crossover. Its the lesser of two evils. I would rather have a bit of unEQ'd FR than to lose all the bass above the crossover.

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post #50503 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 07:50 PM
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Looking for someone to point me in the right direction. Coming from a pioneer elite with anti mode. Im running dual seaton submersives that sounded amazing with the antimode. Got a denon 4311, multichannel is much better but my subs sound terrible now. Boomy and just plain crappy. Any suggestion would be appreciated.
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post #50504 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 07:59 PM
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Looking through various documentation, it looks like at some point in time "Listening position" may have meant "Measurement location". The two are mixed quite often.

For example my Denon's On-Screen display refers to each measurement as a listening position #'s.

Even in Audyssey documentation you will find things like :

"Move the microphone to another listening position and press the Measure button"

"Audyssey MultEQ XT sound equalization technology. Your system has been measured at 8 listening positions"

"Maximum number of listening positions measured, 6 or 8,"
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post #50505 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hiya Craig, with all due respect, in your post there is no real convincing evidence whatsoever that could be taken for granted, i.e. unboubted reasoning wholelly discribing the true reason that it was the normalization effect below the -3 dB point of the sub caused by Audyssey that lead to a friend's catastrophe. Agree?

I agree that I haven't given you any "convincing" evidence... well at least not any evidence that would convince a "true believer". If you don't want to believe my account of my first-hand experience with this problem, that's your prerogative. I know what I experienced and that is all I need to know to be convinced that this can be a real issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Again, IMHO it is the deep reasoning what is still missing from this description.

Do you need more "deep reasoning" evidence than this:

Ricci's graph:




If you do, it is confirmed here:

MACCA350's graph:



Both of these graphs show added gain below 20 Hz due to the normalization process.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the obvious, please feel free to do so.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #50506 of 71921 Old 02-16-2012, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmoney76 View Post

Looking for someone to point me in the right direction. Coming from a pioneer elite with anti mode. Im running dual seaton submersives that sounded amazing with the antimode. Got a denon 4311, multichannel is much better but my subs sound terrible now. Boomy and just plain crappy. Any suggestion would be appreciated.

That's a problem with a VERY broad potential number of suspects. If this is your first exposure to Audyssey I would first suggest taking a good look at your measurement technique. That seems to be the single largest problem with your type of issue. Batpig has a very comprehensive guide - I would start there.

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post #50507 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 05:33 AM
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Audyssey team,

I have a question on calibrating a small room using Aud.XT.

My room is about 12x20 (with about 7' dead space to the right of the sofa). Below is a image of the layout, and the recording positions based on my understanding of the how-to's.



Questions:

1) Audyssey recommends 2-3ft between measurement locations. In my case, that means that the 1 2 3 4 5 6 will be pretty close to my TV and far from the sofa. Is that OK? Could I get away with 2 feet wide, but 1 ft long spacing?

2) Are my the measurement points for 7-8 ok?

3) Ear height in my scenario is below the seatback. Should I take all measurements above the seat back?

4) Do you guys have any tips in accurately measuring distance with a boom mic stand?
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post #50508 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 05:38 AM
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Are their any updates on the Audyssey Pro software for the Integra 80.3? Just curious as I havent seen anything posted in a while

ps. Integra needs to steup up with firmware as I have Chad B coming for a full calibration in just over a month.
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post #50509 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Audyssey team,

I have a question on calibrating a small room using Aud.XT.

My room is about 12x20 (with about 7' dead space to the right of the sofa). Below is a image of the layout, and the recording positions based on my understanding of the how-to's.



Questions:

1) Audyssey recommends 2-3ft between measurement locations. In my case, that means that the 1 2 3 4 5 6 will be pretty close to my TV and far from the sofa. Is that OK? Could I get away with 2 feet wide, but 1 ft long spacing?

2) Are my the measurement points for 7-8 ok?

3) Ear height in my scenario is below the seatback. Should I take all measurements above the seat back?

4) Do you guys have any tips in accurately measuring distance with a boom mic stand?

Look for where I posted my setup earlier in this thread. We've got a similar situation. I found my best sound was to have five spots across the center of the couch (ear level) and two just in front. The ones to the side of the couch were just next to the arm rests. In some cases i had ~1' between measurement points.

The sound is much better clustered in my case rather than measured all over the room.
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post #50510 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post


My room is about 12x20 (with about 7' dead space to the right of the sofa). Below is a image of the layout, and the recording positions based on my understanding of the how-to's.

Lou, can you orient your room/system on the long axis? It is always problematic for seating positions to be on a wall and that would allow you to have the couch several feet from the wall.
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post #50511 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Audyssey team,

I have a question on calibrating a small room using Aud.XT.

My room is about 12x20 (with about 7' dead space to the right of the sofa). Below is a image of the layout, and the recording positions based on my understanding of the how-to's.

Questions:

1) Audyssey recommends 2-3ft between measurement locations. In my case, that means that the 1 2 3 4 5 6 will be pretty close to my TV and far from the sofa. Is that OK? Could I get away with 2 feet wide, but 1 ft long spacing?

2) Are my the measurement points for 7-8 ok?

3) Ear height in my scenario is below the seatback. Should I take all measurements above the seat back?

4) Do you guys have any tips in accurately measuring distance with a boom mic stand?

You will find many recommendations regarding the importance of the first measurement position, which Audyssey uses to determine distances and delays for your speakers. The conventional wisdom is that the first measurement position should be exactly at the midpoint between the front left and right speakers, at ear height. With your sofa so close to the back wall, this measurement position should be a minimum of 18 inches from the wall.

So, given the first measurement position as described above, I would select the second and third positions 1 ft to the left and right, the fourth and fifth positions 2 ft to the left and right, all on the sofa at ear level. The sixth thru eighth positions can then be 12 - 18 inches in front of the line of measurements on the sofa. I would not use the measurement positions closest to the TV, as shown in your diagram.

It is also important that you have no items of furniture between the listening area and the front speakers, because things like coffee tables can reflect sound and produce flawed calibrations. You should also experiment with pointing your left and right speakers at the MLP (toe-in), and making sure your center channel speaker is adjusted so it also points directly at the listener's ears at the MLP. And finally, if the center channel speaker is in a cabinet or on a shelf, make sure it is positioned as far forward on the shelf so that the shelf boundary does not reflect sound, which can affect center channel dialog intelligibility.
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post #50512 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I agree that I haven't given you any "convincing" evidence... well at least not any evidence that would convince a "true believer". If you don't want to believe my account of my first-hand experience with this problem, that's your prerogative. I know what I experienced and that is all I need to know to be convinced that this can be a real issue.



Do you need more "deep reasoning" evidence than this:

Ricci's graph:





If you do, it is confirmed here:

MACCA350's graph:



Both of these graphs show added gain below 20 Hz due to the normalization process.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the obvious, please feel free to do so.

Craig

They will say room gain, unless you have a picture of you doing the measurement in real time LOL

My guess is head in the sand.

I really like Audyssey, but it has flaws like everything else in the world...except here
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post #50513 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Audyssey team,

I have a question on calibrating a small room using Aud.XT.

My room is about 12x20 (with about 7' dead space to the right of the sofa). Below is a image of the layout, and the recording positions based on my understanding of the how-to's.



Questions:

1) Audyssey recommends 2-3ft between measurement locations. In my case, that means that the 1 2 3 4 5 6 will be pretty close to my TV and far from the sofa. Is that OK? Could I get away with 2 feet wide, but 1 ft long spacing?

2) Are my the measurement points for 7-8 ok?

3) Ear height in my scenario is below the seatback. Should I take all measurements above the seat back?

4) Do you guys have any tips in accurately measuring distance with a boom mic stand?

My room is similar to yours in that it's setup wider than it is deep.

My measurement technique which has been tried by quite a few folks here, is to take the first measurement on the couch 18" from the couch back, and centered between the front left and right speakers.

Measurements 2 & 3 are taken to the left and right about 2' from 1, provided this does not exceed the width of the front left and right speaker positions.

I then take measurements 4, 5 &6 from left to right as you look at the TV, one to two feet in front of locations 1-3. Don't take measurements closer to the front speakers than half the distance between the center channel speaker and position 1. This produces an angle that's is too great from the farthest front speaker when measuring on the left or right as seen in your diagram.

Take measurement 7&8 in the center of the boxes formed by 1, 2, 4, 5 and 1, 3, 5, 6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

They will say room gain, unless you have a picture of you doing the measurement in real time LOL

My guess is head in the sand.

I really like Audyssey, but it has flaws like everything else in the world...except here

Those are pre-out measurements, so the room is not involved. Those are from the voltages directly put out by the pre-pro.


Max
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post #50514 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

They will say room gain, unless you have a picture of you doing the measurement in real time LOL

Aren't those graphs from the outputs on the AVR itself? So room gain isn't an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

My guess is head in the sand.

I don't *think* I have my head in the sand, but I am always skeptical of people's measurements unless I am convinced they really know what they are doing. That ED thread also contained a whole lot of stuff which makes me very suspicious of ED's motivation for being quick to point the finger at Audyssey.

My view is just that I am unconvinced. Not that it is not possible for Audyssey to be blowing up people's subs, nor that it is likely. Just not convinced. Some people run Audyssey and then boost their subs by 10db from the Audyssey settings. If the sub then suffers, is that an Audyssey problem or user error?

I have huge respect for Craig and he says he knows for a fact of one case where it happened and where Audyssey was definitely to blame. I believe him and so that points to one case where it happened. But that is such a small sample that it serves no purpose to draw any general conclusions from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

I really like Audyssey, but it has flaws like everything else in the world...except here

I agree with you. I like it too. And everything has flaws, for sure. But Audyssey is just a tool - and a tool in the wrong hands can wreak all manner of damage - but does that mean the tool is to blame, or the user? I'm just unconvinced so far, that's all. Not that it matters much - if it's as rare as it seems to be, its hardly something we need to lose sleep over.
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post #50515 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 09:14 AM
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Take measurement 7&8 in the center of the boxes formed by 1, 2, 4, 5 and 1, 3, 5, 6.

Thanks for the tips. Can you recommend how I can accurately get a measurement between 1,2,4,5? You mentioned in the middle of 1,2,4,5 but the Audyssey screenshot shows 7&8 near the wall. Am I interpreting your post wrong?
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post #50516 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Thanks for the tips. Can you recommend how I can accurately get a measurement between 1,2,4,5? You mentioned in the middle of 1,2,4,5 but the Audyssey screenshot shows 7&8 near the wall. Am I interpreting your post wrong?

It's not all that critical. So long as you follow the general advice given (and the setup guide) you will be OK. You don't need to measure to the inch. Just make sure you are 18 inches from any walls, at least, that the mic is pointing up to the ceiling at ear height and that there is a couple of feet, if possible, between mic positions. And that the mic is never outside the boundaries of the L and R front speakers, and chances are you will get a great calibration the first time. Once you have got a good calibration, make a note of the mic positions - then if you want to experiment with alternative arrangements, you can always go back to your known good technique.
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post #50517 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I agree with you. I like it too. And everything has flaws, for sure. But Audyssey is just a tool - and a tool in the wrong hands can wreak all manner of damage - but does that mean the tool is to blame, or the user? I'm just unconvinced so far, that's all. Not that it matters much - if it's as rare as it seems to be, its hardly something we need to lose sleep over.

Hardly something to lose sleep over for those of us with enough or more than enough headroom. For the folks who are on the border though, it's not so much fun.

Personally, I have no doubts whatsoever that the normalization process CAN definitely boost the frequencies below the F3 point of the sub. Why do I have no doubts? Because as CraigJohn's posts illustrate, Chis himself has acknowledged it.

As we know, the lower the frequency, the more power it takes to produce the same SPL's, so I can easily imagine what would happen when someone without sufficient headroom encounters a movie like WOTW, Tron:Legacy, or any one of the movies with significant infrasonic content. If the normalization in their system has caused that boost below the F3 point, it can easily overdrive the sub, and many powered subs do NOT have HPF's or other safeguards to protect against being overdriven.

I heard my old subs driven past their limits with 18" drivers and 'only' 400watt amps, and those subs were rated for infrasonic frequencies and even single digit Hz (Bag End Infrasubs) although they couldn't reproduce single digit Hz at greater than 75-80db. Fortunately, they were built well enough to handle being overdriven with no damage (note* I'm not saying that in my case, being overdriven was due to Audyssey or the normalization process. Just that I realized I needed more headroom).

It was knowing that I didn't have sufficient headroom specifically for THX HT use that led me to upgrade to Seaton's Submersive HP with its built-in 2400watt amp and it's ability to dig into single digit Hz at fairly high SPL's in most rooms and I can now play those infrasonic scenes at THX Reference.


Max
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post #50518 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 09:29 AM
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So from what I gather from the notes, is that 7&8 should be between the other measurement points.



Does this look correct?
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post #50519 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Thanks for the tips. Can you recommend how I can accurately get a measurement between 1,2,4,5? You mentioned in the middle of 1,2,4,5 but the Audyssey screenshot shows 7&8 near the wall. Am I interpreting your post wrong?

No, in the middle of the measurements as 'I' detailed the placements in my post. Let's see how my ASCII art skills are.


---4---5---6---
-----7---8----
---2---1---3---

Does that make it a little easier to follow?


Max

P.S. yep, your new diagram is what I mean
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post #50520 of 71921 Old 02-17-2012, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

No, in the middle of the measurements as 'I' detailed the placements in my post. Let's see how my ASCII art skills are.


---4---5---6---
-----7---8----
---2---1---3---

Does that make it a little easier to follow?


Max

P.S. yep, your new diagram is what I mean

How about this, DJ?
LL
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