"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1688 - AVS Forum
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post #50611 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'm missing something here. What speakers worth owning can't handle 80-300Hz properly?

Any affordable sat? I'm thinking spl here, not frequency, and I used 300 as a reasonable woofer->mid x-over in a 3-way speaker.

I think people picture adding a "good" sub to a 2-say sat as creating a quasi 3-way, but it's not. You're basically creating a hole between a very capable low frequency speaker and an itty-bitty sat "woofer." I know there are expensive small speakers that can do spl from small packages, but most people can't afford them and it's not the emphasis of this thread.

I'm also picturing "real" sound, not special effects, which doesn't mean just music recordings, but film sound as well (many movies have wonderful soundtracks.) I'm not being controversial - what would you rather have conveying a full orchestra in full lower-midrange song (think Batman, Pirates etc.) ... two 5s or 4 8s (or 2 12s), both crossed over at 80 to a good sub?

I've had two sat/sub setups and like them very much, but always missed my old fullrange/sub setup. I always wondered if that was because that old setup was very high quality (Snell Type As with a Steve Mcormick custom sub setup) but recently got a reasonably priced full range LCR and it makes a difference to me.

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post #50612 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post

i have a denon 1712, i will look at the manual and do a reset. thanks

Batpig may be able to help you better then. He does visit this thread regularly but you may find him also in the Denon threads - he is the DenonMeister...
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post #50613 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 04:03 PM
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I agree that the stereo bass topic is relevant to the Audyssey thread. As someone else has mentioned, we're routinely told that raising crossovers to 80hz is a good starting point regardless of setup, but there seem to be reasonable arguments to stereo bass.

I admit, one of my personal reasons for leaving my crossovers at 40Hz is due to the construction of my fronts. They use a total of 10 drivers in a 4-way design, but the part relevant to my preference is the use of six 5.25" bass drivers to reproduce frequencies down to the low 30's.

I find them to be very fast with little overhang and it makes me wonder how much of that has to do with the physical mass and inertia (or lack thereof) of the drivers. Transients and attacks on well recorded drums are especially compelling.

Another interesting thing I've noted about displaced sub(s) vs deeper digging speakers is that although it's difficult to localize test tones below certain frequencies aurally, I can in fact localize... concussive impacts? If you've ever played with bigger fireworks, you're aware that with your eyes closed and fingers in your ears, you can point in the direction one went off by the directional sensation of the shockwave. I've experienced this in my HT, where all my speakers currently have a 40hz XO set by Audyssey. It's most easily apparent from the side surrounds, but is still distinguishable in the front if it's recorded as such.


Max
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post #50614 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

I agree that the stereo bass topic is relevant to the Audyssey thread.

Max

If there is stereo bass then why isn't there surround bass, or multi-channel bass or even DSX bass? Why only stereo?
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post #50615 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

If there is stereo bass then why isn't there surround bass, or multi-channel bass or even DSX bass? Why only stereo?

There is if you have big enough speakers and amps and don't cross them all over at 80hz.
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post #50616 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 05:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Maybe I'm not understanding something. I was under the impression that a modal dip could be addressed by changing the position of the bass driver. So if there is a dip at 65 Hz, then shifting the responsibility of reproducing the 65 Hz region from the sub to the main speakers by lowering the crossover to 60 or even 40 Hz is functionally equivalent of moving a speaker, is that not correct? And certainly less expensive, if it does the job.

Reducing the crossover of your speakers only affects the individual speaker channels, and is nothing to do with the dedicated LFE channel. So while you are avoiding the modal dip as far as the individual speaker channels are concerned, you are still getting the dip in the Sub channel and therefore not solving the problem entirely.
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post #50617 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post


Reducing the crossover of your speakers only affects the individual speaker channels, and is nothing to do with the dedicated LFE channel. So while you are avoiding the modal dip as far as the individual speaker channels are concerned, you are still getting the dip in the Sub channel and therefore not solving the problem entirely.

Perhaps you are right about the LFE content. But not everything has LFE content. Bass in music, for example, is largely re-directed bass, not LFE. And besides, when I measure bass response with a tool like REW, I am measuring re-directed bass, not LFE.
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post #50618 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post

when it was detecting all the speakers it highlighted the sub in the diagram, but no sound came out. in the setup i chose 5.1

sub is set to no (after audyssey) but i didnt see anything in avr config that gave me a choice to put yes


Which connector have you used from the Sub to the AVR, it is common to input to wrong sub in which is typically purple if i recall?

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post #50619 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Perhaps you are right about the LFE content. But not everything has LFE content. Bass in music, for example, is largely re-directed bass, not LFE. And besides, when I measure bass response with a tool like REW, I am measuring re-directed bass, not LFE.

Maybe this page will make you feel better (his conclusion made me smile - love the old school guys.)

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post #50620 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

If there is stereo bass then why isn't there surround bass, or multi-channel bass or even DSX bass? Why only stereo?

The stereo bass effect (envelopment, externalization) improves as the subwoofers are moved away from the listener's centre line. Maximum effect is with the subs directly to the sides of the listener (furthest angle away from centre axis).

This works because our ears are on the side of the head. When each ear hears something different, you don't get that in-your-head mono bass effect but instead a more spacious sense of the bass being all around you. Of course, this assumes that the source you're listening to contains low frequency information that is truly decorrelated, not dual-mono.

If our ears were on the front and back of the head, then having separate front vs surround bass would result in greater envelopment, while left vs right bass wouldn't work. But that's not where our ears are located, hence only stereo bass.

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post #50621 of 72811 Old 02-18-2012, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The stereo bass effect (envelopment, externalization) improves as the subwoofers are moved away from the listener's centre line. Maximum effect is with the subs directly to the sides of the listener (furthest angle away from centre axis).

This works because our ears are on the side of the head. When each ear hears something different, you don't get that in-your-head mono bass effect but instead a more spacious sense of the bass being all around you. Of course, this assumes that the source you're listening to contains low frequency information that is truly decorrelated, not dual-mono.

If our ears were on the front and back of the head, then having separate front vs surround bass would result in greater envelopment, while left vs right bass wouldn't work. But that's not where our ears are located, hence only stereo bass.

How much "decorrelated" bass below 80 Hz is there in recordings?

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post #50622 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

This works because our ears are on the side of the head. When each ear hears something different, you don't get that in-your-head mono bass effect but instead a more spacious sense of the bass being all around you. Of course, this assumes that the source you're listening to contains low frequency information that is truly decorrelated, not dual-mono.

Hi Sanjay.. I follow all that, but if bass below 80Hz is non-localisable, how do our ears each 'hear something different'? Even in a decorrelated source, if we can't tell where the bass is coming from, I don't understand how what you say works.
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post #50623 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 06:49 AM
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I got my Integra 80.2 with x32 on board which replaced my 80.1. I have been an audio enthusiast since my early teens, about 40 yeasr ago. I have made a lot of equipment changes/upgrades over the past several years and more so recently. Speakers, amps, you name it I've changed it out. One of my goals has been to create the most realistic sounding music presentation in my space as possible. I have to say that the x32 has made more of a difference in achieving that goal than anything else I can think of. I like what I heard before but this is a whole new level. "standing on the corner of the third world" by Tears For Fears is one of my favorite demo tracks. Lots of layers to this track. The Vocals were nailed between the l/r channels. So much so that I got up to see if my cc was on. x32 did an incredible job of repairing my room anomalies. The instruments came from much wider space than before. Just wanted to pass along my impressions.

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post #50624 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Sanjay.. I follow all that, but if bass below 80Hz is non-localisable, how do our ears each 'hear something different'? Even in a decorrelated source, if we can't tell where the bass is coming from, I don't understand how what you say works.

Read through these links he provided in the other thread.

http://www.filmaker.com/papers/VDT23Leipz-2SW.pdf

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf
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post #50625 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

How much "decorrelated" bass below 80 Hz is there in recordings?

Hardly any. Most stereo recordings have dual-mono bass for reasons that pre-date bass management. When FM broadcasts get weak, they collaps to mono; summing low frequencies that are out of phase (decorrelated) will cause cancellation and weaker sounding bass. Still, some recording engineers (mostly classical) do record/mix independent low frequencies in each channel: the late John Eargle is one example, with over 200 recordings for the Delos label. The other option is to decorrelate a pair of subwoofer outputs before sending them to two subs.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Sanjay.. I follow all that, but if bass below 80Hz is non-localisable, how do our ears each 'hear something different'? Even in a decorrelated source, if we can't tell where the bass is coming from, I don't understand how what you say works.

You don't have to tell where the bass is coming from, you just have to keep the low frequencies from being coherent. The way to do that is by maintaining different pressure on the left and right ear drums. And the way to do that, with the least contamination to the opposite ear, is by keeping your stereo subs directly to the sides of the listener. The closer they move to the centre line, the more both ears hear the same thing, thereby diminishing the effect.
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Read through these links he provided in the other thread.

http://www.filmaker.com/papers/VDT23Leipz-2SW.pdf

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf

Right. With both papers, I would suggest reading the conclusions first, then working back to the begining. First time I tried to read them straight through, I experienced MEGO (my eyes glazed over).

Sanjay
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post #50626 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 09:49 AM
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I had a Onkyo 607 (2EQ), which crossed my speakers over at:

80hz - Center
Full - Towers
90hz - Surrounds
100hz -Heights

These were 100% correct based on the specs of the speakers.

However, I ran Multi EQ XT with my new Denon and the results were odd. I followed all of the tips recommended over the past few days (covered sofa, placed mic 18"+ from wall, took 8 proper measurements). Some of the smaller speakers were crossed over lower than the bigger/better speakers.

Based on your recommendations I angled my center downward more towards the Sofa when I took these measurements. This may be the cause of the 120hz crossover setting. Currently the center is placed above the TV on a shelf. A few years ago, I placed under my TV which also led to Audyssey to use a 120hz xover setting. Perhaps it shouldn't be angled directly at the listening position in my environment?

The results with Multi EQ XT were:

120hz - Center
Full - Towers
90hz - Surrounds
80hz -Heights

I will try run the setup once more, and this time cluster the recording positions closer to each other and closer to the sofa.
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post #50627 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

I got my Integra 80.2 with x32 on board which replaced my 80.1. I have been an audio enthusiast since my early teens, about 40 yeasr ago. I have made a lot of equipment changes/upgrades over the past several years and more so recently. Speakers, amps, you name it I've changed it out. One of my goals has been to create the most realistic sounding music presentation in my space as possible. I have to say that the x32 has made more of a difference in achieving that goal than anything else I can think of. I like what I heard before but this is a whole new level. "standing on the corner of the third world" by Tears For Fears is one of my favorite demo tracks. Lots of layers to this track. The Vocals were nailed between the l/r channels. So much so that I got up to see if my cc was on. x32 did an incredible job of repairing my room anomalies. The instruments came from much wider space than before. Just wanted to pass along my impressions.

Fantastic report. It confirms what many of us here think - that XT32 makes more difference than pretty much any difference that can be made by using analog or so-called superior DACS in one player or another. Even coming from XT, which is pretty good, XT32 is a revelation.
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post #50628 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You don't have to tell where the bass is coming from, you just have to keep the low frequencies from being coherent. The way to do that is by maintaining different pressure on the left and right ear drums. And the way to do that, with the least contamination to the opposite ear, is by keeping your stereo subs directly to the sides of the listener. The closer they move to the centre line, the more both ears hear the same thing, thereby diminishing the effect.

Right. With both papers, I would suggest reading the conclusions first, then working back to the begining. First time I tried to read them straight through, I experienced MEGO (my eyes glazed over).

Thanks. I'll do as you (and PTG) suggest.
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post #50629 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Hardly any.




Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Most stereo recordings have dual-mono bass for reasons that pre-date bass management. When FM broadcasts get weak, they collaps to mono; summing low frequencies that are out of phase (decorrelated) will cause cancellation and weaker sounding bass. Still, some recording engineers (mostly classical) do record/mix independent low frequencies in each channel: the late John Eargle is one example, with over 200 recordings for the Delos label.

I can see that with large, orchestral pieces where you could have sources of bass on both sides of the orchestra. However, studio or live recordings of amplified music will be mono bass. Will the "increased envelopment" of "stereo bass" be worth the effort in that case?


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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The other option is to decorrelate a pair of subwoofer outputs before sending them to two subs. You don't have to tell where the bass is coming from, you just have to keep the low frequencies from being coherent.

How does one go about doing that? Is the benefit worth the effort?

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

With both papers, I would suggest reading the conclusions first, then working back to the begining. First time I tried to read them straight through, I experienced MEGO (my eyes glazed over).

Me too! I'll try again. It was late last night when I tried to wade through them.

Theoretical question #1: Doesn't most of the "envelopment" from a surround sound system originate in the frequencies where we can hear directionality? IOW, if the >80 Hz content offers directionality which enhances envelopment, how much improvement in envelopment will be achieved by adding incoherence below 80 Hz? (I'm not yanking your chain here... I really don't know the answer to this question. I've never experienced a "stereo bass" system that was playing back incoherent bass.)

Theoretical question #2: If the content contains an LFE track, does that addition impact the effect? IOW, if you add another source of bass, not correlated to the "stereo bass", does that dilute or enhance the effect? Or, is this content/recording dependent?

Thanks.

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post #50630 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Read through these links he provided in the other thread.

http://www.filmaker.com/papers/VDT23Leipz-2SW.pdf

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf

The first link (from 2004) mentions only one maker who has implemented such a device that can handle Stereo Bass.

Some descriptions from the Outlaw Audio site:

"The ICBM-1 sets a new standard for bass management flexibility far exceeding the capabilities of today's most advanced pre-amp processors. The ICBM-1 offers separate, user selectable crossover points, sub level control, independent LFE trim control, adjustable slope control, and bass recombine all while remaining acoustically transparent. If that weren't enough, the ICBM is the only bass management device we are aware of that may optionally be configured to drive stereo subwoofers with "hard left" and "hard right" derived bass signals. This is accomplished by summing the bass from the left, left surround and half of the center channel bass signals for the left subwoofer, and the right, right surround and the other half of the center channel bass signals for the right subwoofer."

At around 2006 the product was discontinued. As of today one unit is available on eBay for $163.99.

Anyone know of any other maker that has taken up on the theory of Stereo Bass and started production of sucha device?

Seems mainstream AVR/AVP makers didn't jump on the case.

Theory remains theory, or anyone here knows of another maker?

Finally, I just wonder how Stereo Bass would work in a multi-seat environment. Another interesting question for the experts!
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post #50631 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 01:09 PM
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running audyssey i had problem with not detecting sub, it was a bad cable.


a couple of questions

am using denon 1712

after first measurement, i go to next page where i calculate and store

1. ive tried a couple of times it sets the sub channel level at -10 and -12, after i reset should i turn up or down the volume on the back of the sub?

2. when i calculate and store after first main measurement, it wont let me finish the other 7 measurements. it tells me autosetup is done and if i want to turn dynamic volume on. i can check parameters etc. but i cannot finish audyssey. i cant get around this.
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post #50632 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post


1. ive tried a couple of times it sets the sub channel level at -10 and -12, after i reset should i turn up or down the volume on the back of the sub?

Turn gain knob on sub DOWN, that will ensure that Audyssey will raise the trim for the sub.

Quote:
2. when i calculate and store after first main measurement, it wont let me finish the other 7 measurements. it tells me autosetup is done and if i want to turn dynamic volume on. i can check parameters etc. but i cannot finish audyssey. i cant get around this.

If no one else chimes in with a better solution, just do a microprocessor reset on the Denon. Look up the procedue in the Manual.
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post #50633 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Will the "increased envelopment" of "stereo bass" be worth the effort in that case?

Worth it for whom? For the people that enjoy the effect, it is worth it since sounds more like the bass they hear at live events. For folks that would rather use multi-mono subs to tame room modes and improve seat to seat consistency, it isn't worth giving all that up for a subtle effect.
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

How does one go about doing that? Is the benefit worth the effort?

There are a variety of ways to keep your subs from delivering coherent, in-your-chest bass: deliberately feed them a stereo signal and keep them mis-aligned (time delays), use one of those cheap Spatializer type processors on your subwoofer outputs, etc. If you can find an old Outlaw Audio ICBM unit, you can do stereo bass management. Flagship Denon receivers and their pre-pro have stereo bass management built-in. As does my old Lex pre-pro, which also has bass decorrelation processing, which is I haven't really researched external solutions. Again, "worth the effort" depends on personal preference. One data point: Lex ships their pre-pros with low frequency decorrelation set to Off by default, because they think most people won't like the effect initially (just as people initially don't like flattening out the bass response).
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Doesn't most of the "envelopment" from a surround sound system originate in the frequencies where we can hear directionality? IOW, if the >80 Hz content offers directionality which enhances envelopment, how much improvement in envelopment will be achieved by adding incoherence below 80 Hz?

Yes, the most noticeable sense of spaciousness comes from frequencies above the bass range, and for those frequencies the optimal locations are around ±55-60 degrees (which you already know, since you have speakers there). The lower the frequency, the more subtle the effect AND the wider apart (further from centre line) the speakers need to be in order to hear spaciousness/width. Which doesn't make the stereo bass effect inaudible, just more subtle.
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If the content contains an LFE track, does that addition impact the effect? IOW, if you add another source of bass, not correlated to the "stereo bass", does that dilute or enhance the effect? Or, is this content/recording dependent?

Yes, the more mono the signal, the lesser the effect. One way to handle the situation is to route the LFE channel to subwoofers placed along the medial plane. So, bass from all the left channels (front, side, rear) gets sent to the subwoofer directly at your left, ditto bass from all the right channels to the sub at your right, centre bass split to both; LFE routed to subs placed directly in front and behind you.

Yeah, yeah, I know: but Sanjay, is it worth doing all that? Wellll....

Sanjay
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post #50634 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 01:18 PM
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Luisfc1972,

1. Down
2. Do not calculate and store until after you've finished running all positions.
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post #50635 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 01:46 PM
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sub is at -7.5

crossovers at 80

speakers set to small

am i done?
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post #50636 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post

sub is at -7.5

crossovers at 80

speakers set to small

am i done?

All more you need to do is to grab a cold beer, sit down at the MLP and start to enjoy!!
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post #50637 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Worth it for whom?

Sanjay, isn't Stereo Bass something like the Wankel motor, a brave idea no one really followed up? BTW, care to explain how Denon flagships handle SB?
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post #50638 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post

sub is at -7.5

crossovers at 80

speakers set to small

am i done?

Not yet - you need to look into the Dynamic EQ settings. See this thread for a brief discussion.

Eve: I thought I was through getting involved with men who were trouble. Falling in love on a look. I can't look at you.

Mickey: You have perfection about you. Your eyes have music. Your heart's the best part of your body. And when you move, every man, woman and child is forced to watch.
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post #50639 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

Not yet - you need to look into the Dynamic EQ settings. See this thread for a brief discussion.

That is unrelated to measuring and getting a good setup. Luis can kick back and listen now. DEQ is certainly one of the first thing I would look at, but the calibration part is over.

Jeff
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post #50640 of 72811 Old 02-19-2012, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

the Wankel motor, a brave idea no one really followed up?

The Mazda RS7 is a very nice car that uses the Wankel engine. Talking of cars, and bringing this errant post back on topic, my about-to-be-delivered Range Rover Evoque has its sound system tuned by, yes, Audyssey!
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