"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1690 - AVS Forum
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post #50671 of 71753 Old 02-19-2012, 08:46 PM
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Hello,

I am trying to setup an Onkyo TX-NR3009. It keep getting a Speaker Detect Error Screen. I am running a 5.1 setup and all the speakers show a Yes next to them. I have noticed that the Front Left speaker does sound substantially weaker than the rest.

Any insight would be appreciated.

Daniel

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post #50672 of 71753 Old 02-19-2012, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

You will learn that mic placement, even if varied by only inches, affects a calibration more than what you might think.

When my measurement positions were spread out across all three seats my surrounds were never set lower than 90Hz. But recently, since I started bunching up my measurements around the middle seat more (changing each mic position by only inches compared to the old positions I used to use), my surrounds are now set to 80Hz.

Same thing happened when I had my old setup with my old center: no matter how I positioned the center I could never get a crossover below 100Hz even though it was rated at 75Hz in-room. But once I bunched up the mic positions a little (by a difference of inches compared to previous positions) so that I wasn't measuring too far to the sides of my MLP, the center was suddenly being set at 60Hz.

Mic positions do matter. Also remember that crossovers are not calculated from the first measurement position alone: Audyssey weighs all positions measured to calculate the -3dB point (which determines where the receiver will set the crossovers). So in my case it was the positioning of all but the first measurement spot that was affecting the crossover selections of my surrounds and center.

Thank you. I'm happy with the way it is now. I'm returning the Denon due to HDMI finickiness and going back to Onkyo.
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post #50673 of 71753 Old 02-19-2012, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongline View Post

Sorry if this was asked before - I did my search but couldn't find anything related, or I just didn't know how to come up with proper key words. I ran Audyssey setup and it told me the center speaker had wrong phase. So I double checked then triple checked the wiring and it's correctly wired. It's only 2 feet long wire so there is not question about here. Anyway I reverse the wires and Audyssey became happy. So someone must be wrong. My question is, who is more likely to be wrong, Audyssey or speaker internal wiring?

AVR: Denon 2311
Speaker: Energy Take Classis II

If you're not using a mic stand or tripod and being anal about your procedure, Audyssey can throw all kinds of weird errors. I interpret them like Windows errors - "something" is funny, but the error message is useless for determining what.

If you don't have a mic stand (and adapter) search this thread - there's a nice cheapo setup at Amazon that every noob should have, makes life much easier.

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post #50674 of 71753 Old 02-19-2012, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cenvalycali View Post

Just wondering what the majority thinks is the best 5.1 reciever for about 300 that has audessey that can control and balance the sub woofer. I think thats audessey xt. Thanks for the help.

I'm sorry, I mean multi EQ. What is the best 5.1 receiver for around 300.00?
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post #50675 of 71753 Old 02-19-2012, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cenvalycali View Post


I'm sorry, I mean multi EQ. What is the best 5.1 receiver for around 300.00?

Try looking for the denon 1612

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #50676 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If "no one" means Denon, Outlaw Audio, Harman/Kardon, and Lexicon. All those companies had products that did bass management in stereo.

You are using past tense Sanjay, does that mean these products are discontinued? Did these fine makers finally give up on "Stereo Bass"?

Quote:


They can be configured for up to 3 subwoofer outputs. Bass filtered from all the left channels (front, side, rear) is sent to the left subwoofer output. Bass filtered from all the right channels (front, side, rear) is sent to the right subwoofer output. Bass from the centre channel is split to both those subwoofer outputs. The LFE channel is sent to its own dedicated subwoofer output.

Interesting! Especially the split center channel bass signal is the one that makes me scratch my head.
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post #50677 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

If you're not using a mic stand or tripod and being anal about your procedure, Audyssey can throw all kinds of weird errors. I interpret them like Windows errors - "something" is funny, but the error message is useless for determining what.

If you don't have a mic stand (and adapter) search this thread - there's a nice cheapo setup at Amazon that every noob should have, makes life much easier.

I did use a tripod and the result was consistent everytime. Thinking speaker manufactor must made internal wiring wrong.
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post #50678 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bweissman View Post

You can easily perform a listening test with just the one suspect speaker and 1 known good speaker temporarily set up as a stereo pair.

Can you elaborate how to test with just one speaker?
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post #50679 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If "no one" means Denon, Outlaw Audio, Harman/Kardon, and Lexicon. All those companies had products that did bass management in stereo. They can be configured for up to 3 subwoofer outputs. Bass filtered from all the left channels (front, side, rear) is sent to the left subwoofer output. Bass filtered from all the right channels (front, side, rear) is sent to the right subwoofer output. Bass from the centre channel is split to both those subwoofer outputs. The LFE channel is sent to its own dedicated subwoofer output.

Interesting. This arcane technique might benefit folks with high level gear and a bass fetish.

But can it be used with XT32/SubEQHT?
Flagship Denon AVP1 pre/pro owners who did the $1K XT32/3D HW/SW upgrade are to a man reporting significantly improved (and I assume non stereo) bass SQ amongst the other SQ improvements (detail, imaging, improved surround bubble, etc). It's unclear if any had such esoteric stereo bass settings in place (the AVP1 had 3 available sub channels).

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #50680 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cenvalycali View Post

I'm sorry, I mean multi EQ. What is the best 5.1 receiver for around 300.00?

Hi. You are correct to start with a minimum of MultEQ and if you have or will soon get good speakers, try for XT. Amazingly, the Denon AVR 1712
has XT and MSRP is only $399!! Street is probably close to what you mentioned, but in that model you sacrifice networking features for the added Audyssey XT SQ at that price. BTW, for Denon buy only from authorized dealers such as AVS to validate the OEM warranty-and you'll need to contact them personally for their best deal.

I suggest you post in the Denon AVRxx12 thread where there is a constant flow of such useful info, including the first two posts with feature/model descriptions. There may be a similar Onkyo thread I'm not aware of.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #50681 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongline View Post

I did use a tripod and the result was consistent everytime. Thinking speaker manufactor must made internal wiring wrong.

Some speakers intentionally reverse the phase of the tweeter to improve the FR on the intended listening axis. Moreover apparently other interferences can yield this error. Chris K of Audyssey consistently posted here that if you have checked the wiring to your speaker and confirmed it is correct, you should ignore tbe warning and proceed.
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post #50682 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

You are using past tense Sanjay, does that mean these products are discontinued? Did these fine makers finally give up on "Stereo Bass"?

Only the Outlaw ICBM was discontinued, for reasons that have nothing to do with stereo bass. The others are still current. In addition, Emotiva's upcoming pre-pro is spec'd as having stereo subwoofer outputs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Interesting! Especially the split center channel bass signal is the one that makes me scratch my head.

You've never heard of splitting a channel to more than one output? If you set your centre speaker to None, its content will be split to your L/R speakers. Nothing to scratch your head over.

Sanjay
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post #50683 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Only the Outlaw ICBM was discontinued, for reasons that have nothing to do with stereo bass. The others are still current. In addition, Emotiva's upcoming pre-pro is spec'd as having stereo subwoofer outputs.

The NHT X1 and X2 stereo crossover also supports stereo subwoofers. They too are discontinued, but they do pop up on eBay from time to time.

I have one in my 2CH system with NHT Evolution Subs. I am pretty sure I don't hear anything special regarding stereo bass, but I do it because I can. :-)

The two subs are located left and right of dead center, but not quite as far over as the associated L/R loud speakers.

Brian
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post #50684 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You've never heard of splitting a channel to more than one output? If you set your centre speaker to None, its content will be split to your L/R speakers. Nothing to scratch your head over.

Hold on for a moment Sanjay, do I understand you correctly? Are you saying for the sake of "enjoyment" of the envelopment given by stereo bass one would have to give up the center speaker? I wouldn't like to do that. That would surely result in a phantom center where every listener will hear the dialog from a different point up front. Hm?!

BTW, I thought it was only the bass contents below the set crossover of the center channel that was supposed to be split.
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post #50685 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Are you saying for the sake of "enjoyment" of the envelopment given by stereo bass one would have to give up the center speaker?

No, I'm giving you an example of splitting one channel into two outputs to show you that it is something routine, not a headscratcher.
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I thought it was only the bass contents below the set crossover of the center channel that was supposed to be split.

It is.

Sanjay
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post #50686 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc View Post

I am pretty sure I don't hear anything special regarding stereo bass

Part of the reason is because your subs are placed in the least effective locations (near the centre line) to hear the effect. It would be like placing a pair of speakers right next to each other and not hearing a soundstage.

Sanjay
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post #50687 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 09:48 AM
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Sanjay, is "stereo" bass something that is heard, or is it more "sensed?"
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post #50688 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Part of the reason is because your subs are placed in the least effective locations (near the centre line) to hear the effect. It would be like placing a pair of speakers right next to each other and not hearing a soundstage.

I could have worded that a lot better...

They are not directly adjacent to the center line. They are maybe 2/3rds of the way between the center and the corresponding L/R speaker. Still not optimum, but that is what my current layout allows.

Brian
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post #50689 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


Interesting. This arcane technique might benefit folks with high level gear and a bass fetish.

But can it be used with XT32/SubEQHT?
Flagship Denon AVP1 pre/pro owners who did the $1K XT32/3D HW/SW upgrade are to a man reporting significantly improved (and I assume non stereo) bass SQ amongst the other SQ improvements (detail, imaging, improved surround bubble, etc). It's unclear if any had such esoteric stereo bass settings in place (the AVP1 had 3 available sub channels).

If I'd paid a grand for an upgrade I'd be reporting a significant improvement too!
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post #50690 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 01:10 PM
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I just posted this on the Audyssey facebook wall.
Quote:


Is there any chance for the hi end/reference/flagship AVR's (Denon 5xxxCI line, Onkyo NR5xxx line, etc) 4 individual sub calibration will be included? Realizing this has limited marketability, yet still people with hi end Home Theatres are more and more using multiple subs to smooth out the low bass response. So, here's one customers feedback asking for it.

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post #50691 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I just posted this on the Audyssey facebook wall.

Hi Michael, I think it would be more productive to post it to the Audyssey Tech Talk wall, Chris is there more frequently than on the other Audyssey wall. Just a tip!
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post #50692 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongline View Post

Can you elaborate how to test with just one speaker?

He meant a stereo pair with the questionable speaker and a known good one - if one is out of phase with the other there won't be any bass and there won't be a center image, the sound will be sort of amorphous, non-specific. Manufacturers play lots of games with centers to mess with the dispersion and whatever, so it's probably fine.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi Michael, I think it would be more productive to post it to the Audyssey Tech Talk wall, Chris is there more frequently than on the other Audyssey wall. Just a tip!

I just asked to join that, if "accepted" I'll be member .... drum roll here ... 166, as there are 165 members so far.

I'm a technical guy, with a P.E. and passion for audio/HT, put in a kind word for me.
I'm not a flame poster either, mutual respect for others viewpoints.
We all have to exist in the sandbox of life.

[edit]
I'm in!, member 166, thx for tip.
Post the Q there.
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"I wouldn't want to belong to any club that will accept someone like me as a member."
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I'm in!, member 166, thx for tip.

Most welcome...
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post #50696 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 01:51 PM
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"I wouldn't want to belong to any club that will accept someone like me as a member."

AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER - says avatar. Catch 22.
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post #50698 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Worth it for whom? For the people that enjoy the effect, it is worth it since sounds more like the bass they hear at live events. For folks that would rather use multi-mono subs to tame room modes and improve seat to seat consistency, it isn't worth giving all that up for a subtle effect.

That would be me. I don't think I have an interest in giving up the even frequency response I get for uneven response with subtly more "envelopment." I get all the envelopment I need right now with my mains and the 3 "mono" subs. In fact, I "hear" the bass in the front soundstage, which is, IMO, where it belongs. I don't hear it "in my head" or "in my room". I hear it up front with the rest of the rest of the instruments, or connected to the on screen explosion. If I hear it to the side or to the rear, I get that directionality from the higher frequency components of the sound.

I really don't want to give up my current "flat" bass sound. I heard a system just yesterday that was "stereo", with 2 very large speakers, with dual 12" woofers in each speaker, and no subwoofer. No room correction either, just the "bare" room acoustics. I listened to some music with which I am intimately familiar, music that I have heard on my own and multiple other systems. The bass was so uneven that half the notes were missing and the other half were over-accentuated. I have no doubt that a measurement would show huge peaks and nulls in the bass response. The bass was not enveloping either, but then the 12" drivers were in the cabinets up front, not separated and placed at 90 degrees, as you've recommended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

There are a variety of ways to keep your subs from delivering coherent, in-your-chest bass:

Wait... you give up the "in-your-chest" bass too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Yeah, yeah, I know: but Sanjay, is it worth doing all that? Wellll....

I think I have *my* answer.

Thanks for the info, but I think I'll pass. I completely content with the flat "mono" bass I have AND the envelopment I get with my system. The trade-offs seem too great.

Craig

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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

That would be me. I don't think I have an interest in giving up the even frequency response I get for uneven response with subtly more "envelopment." I get all the envelopment I need right now with my mains and the 3 "mono" subs. In fact, I "hear" the bass in the front soundstage, which is, IMO, where it belongs. I don't hear it "in my head" or "in my room". I hear it up front with the rest of the rest of the instruments, or connected to the on screen explosion. If I hear it to the side or to the rear, I get that directionality from the higher frequency components of the sound.


Thanks for the info, but I think I'll pass. I completely content with the flat "mono" bass I have AND the envelopment I get with my system. The trade-offs seem too great.

I could have written exactly that - agree 100% with you.
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post #50700 of 71753 Old 02-20-2012, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If I'd paid a grand for an upgrade I'd be reporting a significant improvement too!

You are such a skeptic.

OK, for another grand (plus travel expenses) I'll come over and give a listen too. A SoM Golden Ears "Sounds good to me!" certificate is included at no extra charge should the system have sufficient sonic merit.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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