"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1691 - AVS Forum
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post #50701 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

You are such a skeptic.

OK, for another grand (plus travel expenses) I'll come over and give a listen too. A SoM Golden Ears "Sounds good to me!" certificate is included at no extra charge should the system have sufficient sonic merit.

OK, everybody, read his "certificate" closely especially looking for the phrase "mental condition."
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post #50702 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

You are such a skeptic.

Moi?

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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

OK, for another grand (plus travel expenses) I'll come over and give a listen too. A SoM Golden Ears "Sounds good to me!" certificate is included at no extra charge should the system have sufficient sonic merit.

Can I also have the "Now That Was Money Well Spent" rider too please? And do you do a special two-for-one on Placebos this week?
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post #50703 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I could have written exactly that - agree 100% with you.

My 110 % agreement is in the phrase "in my head". Kinda marketing hype, isn't it? Making one believe there is some discrepancy in perception, yet a bold new solution is immediately offered. Product has been discontinued due to unknown reasons, but most probably due to declined sales statistics.

My favorite word today was delivered by SoM: "esoteric"!

My favorite question of the day was put by pepar: "heard or sensed"? Awaiting reply! (Synonyms of "masculine" or "feminine", ...we men hear, women sense)
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post #50704 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post


Thanks for the info, but I think I'll pass. I completely content with the flat "mono" bass I have AND the envelopment I get with my system. The trade-offs seem too great.

Craig

Key word I think is seem. Everyone writes it off without trying for themselves to understand what, if any, trade-offs exist. Until you test your system in your room you'll never know the difference.

At least that was my experience.

Now maybe switching to lower crossover did something to the frequency response that is more pleasing to my ears, or lowered the overall bass response or something. But there is a noticeable difference, and I do prefer that difference. All of my measurements show only subtle differences, however. So I'm still a skeptic of whether or not I'm truly hearing a difference because I have no way to prove it.

But for now it is 40hz crossovers on the fronts and 60hz on remaining channels.
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post #50705 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Key word I think is seem. Everyone writes it off without trying for themselves to understand what, if any, trade-offs exist. Until you test your system in your room you'll never know the difference.

Agree with you. But the problem is how to try it. There are no clear setup instructions since the theory is still a theory, IMHO. No AVR/AVP bears the logo of "Stereo-Sub" on the front panel aside the many logos we can find there that would prove it has already become an industrial standard or the like.

Quote:


Now maybe switching to lower crossover did something to the frequency response that is more pleasing to my ears, or lowered the overall bass response or something. But there is a noticeable difference, and I do prefer that difference. All of my measurements show only subtle differences, however. So I'm still a skeptic of whether or not I'm truly hearing a difference because I have no way to prove it.

Feel free to experiment and come back with details.

Quote:


But for now it is 40hz crossovers on the fronts and 60hz on remaining channels.

Poor AVR amps are being stressed, but nonetheless.
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post #50706 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 04:28 PM
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Response from my Q
Quote:


Chris Kyriakakis
Hi Michael, we are not aware of any plans from AVR makers to go with 4 independent subs. When they do we are ready--the current Sub EQ HT algorithm is fully scalable to more subs.

Below post only here, not the audyssey tech forum, my soapbox speech:

So - the AVR makers are spoon feeding us with these slow adoptions of available technology why? Built in upgrade path....

Heck, look at the back of AVR's and tell me how many un-used connectors are there....
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post #50707 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Agree with you. But the problem is how to try it. There are no clear setup instructions since the theory is still a theory, IMHO. No AVR/AVP bears the logo of "Stereo-Sub" on the front panel aside the many logos we can find there that would prove it has already become an industrial standard or the like.

Well, it really isn't that hard. If your subs have line level inputs run your fronts through the subs and set AVR to large fronts with no sub. Or cheat like I did and lower your crossover on your fronts since it doesn't involve any wiring changes. My subs were already in "stereo" locations so that was easy.



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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Poor AVR amps are being stressed, but nonetheless.

Yep, and I was aware of that. But I don't listen at reference levels, usually more in the -15 to -10 range so only getting peaks in the 90-95db range. My calculations show I only need 16W to reach that so I'm not too worried at those levels.
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post #50708 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

...My favorite word today was delivered by SoM: "esoteric"!

Thnx, I appreciate that. It couldn't have been an easy choice with such worthy competition as "arcane" and "bass fetish" in the very same post!

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #50709 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 04:36 PM
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Mike R,P.E., if you look at twenty receiver/processor installations, I bet you'd find that there were a a LOT LESS unused connectors in the aggregate. My point being that once set up installations don't dramatically change, but different systems use different capabilities.

Jeff
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post #50710 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Response from my Q


Below post only here, not the audyssey tech forum, my soapbox speech:

So - the AVR makers are spoon feeding us with these slow adoptions of available technology why? Built in upgrade path....

Heck, look at the back of AVR's and tell me how many un-used connectors are there....

Ever heard of marketing? That feature may be available in next year's model or even the year after. If I were the Marketing Manager I would probably do the same. No way to offer all at one shot. We gotta do business the year after and the year after the year, eh? Gotta live with it!! We supply, you buy, that makes the world go 'round! And if you don't buy we go bankrupt!
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post #50711 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Key word I think is seem. Everyone writes it off without trying for themselves to understand what, if any, trade-offs exist. Until you test your system in your room you'll never know the difference.

At least that was my experience.

Let me see if I can figure out what it would take for me to try it the way Sanjay suggested...

I would need to disconnect 2 of my 3 subs from the subwoofer output, leaving just one connected. I would then need to move the other 2 subs to points at 90 degrees to the LP and the 3rd sub up front and center. Then I would need to find a way to redirect the bass from the left front, left wide, left side and left rear plus a split CC signal to the left sub, and the bass from the right front, right wide, right side, and right rear plus a split CC to the right sub. Then the 3rd sub gets just the LFE channel.

Then I would need to give up Audyssey Room Correction because Audyssey couldn't begin to figure out that connection scheme. That means I would have to give up my DEQ, and DSX too.

Ummmmm.... no thanks.

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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Now maybe switching to lower crossover did something to the frequency response that is more pleasing to my ears, or lowered the overall bass response or something. But there is a noticeable difference, and I do prefer that difference. All of my measurements show only subtle differences, however. So I'm still a skeptic of whether or not I'm truly hearing a difference because I have no way to prove it.

But for now it is 40hz crossovers on the fronts and 60hz on remaining channels.

According to what I understand of what Sanjay wrote, the effect is only noticed if your subs are at your sides, 90 degrees to your frontal viewing/listening plane. I think that means that, in order for the crossover change to be effective in enhancing envelopment, your *speakers* would need to be at your sides. I don't think that would be a very good placement for your speakers.

IOW, I suspect that there is some *other* reason you are finding a benefit to the lower crossovers. When you ran Audyssey, what was the crossover that was set afterwards? Was it higher than 40 Hz?

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #50712 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If "no one" means Denon, Outlaw Audio, Harman/Kardon, and Lexicon. All those companies had products that did bass management in stereo... Bass filtered from all the left channels (front, side, rear) is sent to the left subwoofer output. Bass filtered from all the right channels (front, side, rear) is sent to the right subwoofer output.

Hmm, it's news to me that my 4311 separated left and right side bass.

I thought it actually did its best to correlate the two subs.

Noah
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post #50713 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


According to what I understand of what Sanjay wrote, the effect is only noticed if your subs are at your sides, 90 degrees to your frontal viewing/listening plane. I think that means that, in order for the crossover change to be effective in enhancing envelopment, your *speakers* would need to be at your sides. I don't think that would be a very good placement for your speakers.

And I'm seeing maybe having the dog whizzing on one as well , you know, to give it slightly different timbre.

Jeff
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post #50714 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

And I'm seeing maybe having the dog whizzing on one as well , you know, to give it slightly different timbre.Jeff

I will always be thankful to our late schnauser Oliver who presciently whizzed on the old Sony AVR resulting in an intermittent short in one channel. This got me out to BB where I bought my first Denon AVR several years ago, which brought me to this forum so I could figure out how the hell to set it up. $10K and 5K posts later I have replaced everything but the display and am now happily ensconced in MLP literally surrounded by $25K worth of great sounding gear.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #50715 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I will always be thankful to our late schnauser Oliver who presciently whizzed on the old Sony AVR resulting in an intermittent short in one channel. This got me out to BB where I bought my first Denon AVR several years ago, which brought me to this forum so I could figure out how the hell to set it up. $10K and 5K posts later I have replaced everything but the display and am now happily ensconced in MLP literally surrounded by $25K worth of great sounding gear.

Mighty oaks from little acorns grow. Just kicking back in about 5 mins myself with some Ron Zacapa and the second Transformers movie.
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

...and am now happily ensconced in MLP literally surrounded by $25K worth of great sounding gear.

And while you're out with a great sounding gear, here's some reference material I've just recently acquired, not only for great sound but also for some great music. Just give it a try.

A group called Bliss from Denmark, with fine musicians from Sweden and also from Ghana:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6vT_G7fUmk

Let your Dalis shine! This all for a bit of relaxing amid a though day of discussions.
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post #50717 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Hmm, it's news to me that my 4311 separated left and right side bass.
I thought it actually did its best to correlate the two subs.

In his defense, I'm sure Sanjay meant that "All those companies had (one or more-ed.) products that did bass management in stereo."

You are correct, the 4311/A!00 "only" offers XT32/SubEQHT. I must agree with those who are not inclined to put energy and effort to hear what I might be missing with stereo bass. Geeze, I played bass professionally and it was always in mono. I'll just settle for what I have now: solid, full, punchy, dynamic and even bass that localizes very well to the front soundstage when intended, as with kick drum and uprightbass/bass guitar.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #50718 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post


IOW, I suspect that there is some *other* reason you are finding a benefit to the lower crossovers. When you ran Audyssey, what was the crossover that was set afterwards? Was it higher than 40 Hz?

Craig

I'm not denying that isn't the case but up to now I still have not found some other reason.

After Audyssey my fronts were set Full Range (measured in room response in the mid 30's, but yes my subs would do better) and all other speakers were either 40 or 50hz. So I essentially bumped them all up 1 or 2 clicks of 10hz increments of what Audyssey chose.

Sanjay said things are greatest if subs are at your sides, but that doesn't mean you won't get some effect or impact at less than optimal locations. For me it just so happened that both my subs are near my front mains and so simply lowering my crossover gave me more of the stereo effect.

For me the biggest impact was on music. Music just never seemed to blend quite right with 80hz crossover. Bass seemed to collapse to the middle for back of better verbage. Going with more "stereo" subs made music sound better than ever. And if it sounds great and images will for music, how can it not for movies (other than movie soundtracks are more demanding, so yes there may be give/take with amp headroom, etc).
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post #50719 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 06:12 PM
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Hello all. First some background info...I have paradigm studio 60's v5 for fronts (medium to small tower if you're not familiar), cc-590 for center (decent sized center and actually larger woofers than the towers, same tweeter and rear ported), studio 10's (small bookshelves on a stand, same mid/tweeter as towers) for rears and hsu vtf3-ho for sub in a decently large room (19x22x9 and open on one side to the kitchen). After running audyssey xt32, I get crossovers of 150hz for the center, 40 for fronts and rears (fronts are about two feet from wall, rears are front ported and over a foot from the wall). Does this seem odd? Anyone else with audyssey crossovers for these speakers? Any harm in manually increasing crossover of the fronts/rears to 60 or even 80? Does that throw off the filters and other calculations of the room correction? Same for increasing sub level as it just seems so anemic and non-existant (and i'm not a major basshead either). Thanks for your help.
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post #50720 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 06:16 PM
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^Hi, welcome. Macro alert!

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #50721 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

I'm not denying that isn't the case but up to now I still have not found some other reason.

After Audyssey my fronts were set Full Range (measured in room response in the mid 30's, but yes my subs would do better) and all other speakers were either 40 or 50hz. So I essentially bumped them all up 1 or 2 clicks of 10hz increments of what Audyssey chose.

Sanjay said things are greatest if subs are at your sides, but that doesn't mean you won't get some effect or impact at less than optimal locations. For me it just so happened that both my subs are near my front mains and so simply lowering my crossover gave me more of the stereo effect.

For me the biggest impact was on music. Music just never seemed to blend quite right with 80hz crossover. Bass seemed to collapse to the middle for back of better verbage. Going with more "stereo" subs made music sound better than ever. And if it sounds great and images will for music, how can it not for movies (other than movie soundtracks are more demanding, so yes there may be give/take with amp headroom, etc).

Well, Sanjay's premise, as I understand it, is that the benefit of "stereo bass" is an increase in envelopment that derives from laterally placed sources of <80 Hz content. IOW, if your "sources" of bass are not laterally placed, the benefit is not realized:

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The stereo bass effect (envelopment, externalization) improves as the subwoofers are moved away from the listener's centre line. Maximum effect is with the subs directly to the sides of the listener (furthest angle away from centre axis).

This works because our ears are on the side of the head. When each ear hears something different, you don't get that in-your-head mono bass effect but instead a more spacious sense of the bass being all around you. Of course, this assumes that the source you're listening to contains low frequency information that is truly decorrelated, not dual-mono.

If our ears were on the front and back of the head, then having separate front vs surround bass would result in greater envelopment, while left vs right bass wouldn't work. But that's not where our ears are located, hence only stereo bass.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You don't have to tell where the bass is coming from, you just have to keep the low frequencies from being coherent. The way to do that is by maintaining different pressure on the left and right ear drums. And the way to do that, with the least contamination to the opposite ear, is by keeping your stereo subs directly to the sides of the listener. The closer they move to the centre line, the more both ears hear the same thing, thereby diminishing the effect.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Part of the reason is because your subs are placed in the least effective locations (near the centre line) to hear the effect. It would be like placing a pair of speakers right next to each other and not hearing a soundstage.

If your speakers are in the front soundstage, and at only 30 degrees or so from center, based on what I read above, the benefit of lowering crossovers to enhance "stereo bass" envelopment will be minimal.

Hence, if you are hearing some benefit to lowering the crossovers, it is doubtful it is due to the effect of "stereo bass", at least based on the info Sanjay has posted.

Craig

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post #50722 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 06:42 PM
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I don't want to speak for Sanjay, but my hunch about his comments regarding subs directly to your sides was in reference to the informal study referenced in one of the papers he linked. That idea is great for the study because it would give you maximum stereo and therefore if it could not be detected that way you could argue it was not detectable at all. It was detectable in that study but they did not do a study with subs in other positions. But the paper does discuss how a the brain interprets a sound "just left of center".
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post #50723 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Sanjay, is "stereo" bass something that is heard, or is it more "sensed?"

Easily heard. Ever try one of those "surround" modes built into TV sets, similar to Hughes SRS or Spatializer? They never really sound like a true multi-speaker set-up, but they do make the soundstage appear wider, if a bit phasey. Now imagine hearing that bigger/wider effect with low frequencies. Irrespective of whether you like it, there's no mistaking the difference.
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Originally Posted by BGLeduc View Post

They are not directly adjacent to the center line. They are maybe 2/3rds of the way between the center and the corresponding L/R speaker. Still not optimum, but that is what my current layout allows.

My comment wasn't criticising your subwoofer layout, just pointing out that those locations make it more difficult to hear the stereo bass effect, since you mentioned that you "don't hear anything special regarding stereo bass".
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Hmm, it's news to me that my 4311 separated left and right side bass.

It's news to me that your 4311 is Denon's flagship model.

Sanjay
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post #50724 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

I don't want to speak for Sanjay, but my hunch about his comments regarding subs directly to your sides was in reference to the informal study referenced in one of the papers he linked. That idea is great for the study because it would give you maximum stereo and therefore if it could not be detected that way you could argue it was not detectable at all. It was detectable in that study but they did not do a study with subs in other positions. But the paper does discuss how a the brain interprets a sound "just left of center".

I'm curious... do you hear these effects on most all content? Or, do you just hear it on the content that has decorreleated bass? Sanjay described that content as "hardly any" of the available content.

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Hardly any. Most stereo recordings have dual-mono bass for reasons that pre-date bass management. When FM broadcasts get weak, they collaps to mono; summing low frequencies that are out of phase (decorrelated) will cause cancellation and weaker sounding bass. Still, some recording engineers (mostly classical) do record/mix independent low frequencies in each channel: the late John Eargle is one example, with over 200 recordings for the Delos label.

So I'm wondering how much of your own content you hear this on. Do you own a bunch of John Eargle's recordings?

Craig

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post #50725 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 07:22 PM
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Yes, I hear this "different" sound on all content. I don't have any of the so called decorrelated tracks.

For music it just gives a sense of more live and there. For movies there is a more enveloping effect and wider sound stage. Surround effects such as explosions and the like seem to be more "there" rather than just loud bass.

Maybe it is something small like distances or phase of main speakers being slightly off and sending more content to them gives the effect, not sure. But all measurements from Audyssey are within 6".

So I'm really looking for someone who can also try this for themselves and see if they notice the difference as much as I do. Sounds like it would be quite an undertaking for you.
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post #50726 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Yes, I hear this "different" sound on all content. I don't have any of the so called decorrelated tracks.

For music it just gives a sense of more live and there. For movies there is a more enveloping effect and wider sound stage. Surround effects such as explosions and the like seem to be more "there" rather than just loud bass.

Maybe it is something small like distances or phase of main speakers being slightly off and sending more content to them gives the effect, not sure. But all measurements from Audyssey are within 6".

So I'm really looking for someone who can also try this for themselves and see if they notice the difference as much as I do. Sounds like it would be quite an undertaking for you.

If you hear it on all content, why do you think it is related to "stereo bass"? The vast majority of content doesn't have decorrelated, or "stereo" bass. I'm led to believe that what you're hearing, (and I don't deny you're hearing it), is not related to "stereo bass" but to some other phenomenon related to changing the crossovers in your system.

Craig

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post #50727 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I get all the envelopment I need right now with my mains and the 3 "mono" subs.

I used to feel that way until I heard the difference.
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I really don't want to give up my current "flat" bass sound.

While dual-mono subs can give you smoother response and greater consistency than stereo subs, it's not like you completely give up those qualities when running your subs in stereo. Think shades of gray rather than black and white. It is certainly possible to EQ each subwoofer relatively smooth and flat at the listening position; not as good as multi-mono subs, but still not an all-or-nothing proposal.
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The bass was not enveloping either, but then the 12" drivers were in the cabinets up front, not separated and placed at 90 degrees, as you've recommended.

Not sure what a set-up with no room correction AND poorly placed low frequency transducers have to do with stereo bass.
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Wait... you give up the "in-your-chest" bass too?

Decorrelating the low frequencies means less bass slam. Anecdotally, I've noticed that the relatively few folks I know that like the stereo bass effect tend to also be the least concerned with bass impact.
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The trade-offs seem too great.

Most people feel the same. But that could be said about flat bass. Acquired taste and all that. BTW, when answering your questions, I deliberately avoided making stereo bass seem attractive. I can't stress enough how much this comes down to personal preference.

Sanjay
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post #50728 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 07:42 PM
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I'm going to have to try stereo bass with my spare subs. I still have the Infrasubs I replaced with the Submersive and they have line inputs and outputs. I also have stereo recordings specifically sourced for their use of Blumlein mic'ing.


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post #50729 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

It was detectable in that study but they did not do a study with subs in other positions.

I've found that the effect diminishes rapidly as you move the subs closer to the centre line, but it still isn't an all-or-nothing situation. Same with Wide speakers: max spaciousness is around 55-60 degrees. But if you can't place your Wides at those angles, the effect doesn't turn off like a light switch.

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post #50730 of 71786 Old 02-20-2012, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I've found that the effect diminishes rapidly as you move the subs closer to the centre line, but it still isn't an all-or-nothing situation. Same with Wide speakers: max spaciousness is around 55-60 degrees. But if you can't place your Wides at those angles, the effect doesn't turn off like a light switch.

So I'm assuming you run a stereo bass set up? If so, where do you have your subs located?
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