"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1697 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Oh, and one more thing I forgot to mention in your configuration is that the knob on the sub you are referring to is not a crossover dial (no such thing on any sub), but a LPF dial. In your setup in this case the matching HPF for the Mains is missing (non-existent). A crossover always involves two filters, with one filter you can not crossover. Agree?

True, my bad on the crossover/lpf term. Note this is not my setup, rather a possible one. I have never hooked my system up this way but I do believe that when using the line level inputs the LPF does act as a crossover and affects which freq go to the sub vs the mains. If it does not work that way, it would have to send full range to the mains and then the sub would augment the freq below the LPF which could cause problems.

This is a configuration I was going to test, but it was much easier to reduce my crossover on my mains to 40hz to get a very similar effect since my subs flank my mains.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Oh, and one more thing I forgot to mention in your configuration is that the knob on the sub you are referring to is not a crossover dial (no such thing on any sub), but a LPF dial. In your setup in this case the matching HPF for the Mains is missing (non-existent). A crossover always involves two filters, with one filter you can not crossover. Agree?



You forgot to add the acoustic speaker crossover slope to the electronic AVR crossover slope (HP and LP). You know, the way that the total rolloff of the THX AVR crossovers work with THX speakers!
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Keith, potential limits and speaker damage aside, the answer to the question of the validity of doing the test with a speaker designed for an 80Hz crossover that shows an Audyssey measured F3 of ~50Hz is "It depends".

It actually depends on the speakers power response in-room. As we're aware, room placement and room gain can allow a speaker to demonstrate an F3 lower than it was designed for or able to produce in an anechoic chamber. The question is the power response in the room.

My old Infrasub subwoofers are built by Bag End to be 'flat to 8Hz' and REW measurements have shown this in my room. The problem is that the Infrasubs can't really do anything better than 70-75db with frequencies that low and due to the equal loudness curves, those frequencies at those SPL's are inaudible and nigh undiscernible. Bag End designed the subs that way though, because they claim that it allows them to perform much more evenly with bass above those super low frequencies (and they have been lauded in many reviews, for the musicality of their subs).

In your case, "it depends" on what volume your speakers can remain relatively flat to 50Hz AND what volumes you will be listening to your chosen review material at. This is actually one instance where Omnimic would be of assistance, i.e. to take power response measurements of those speakers to see how the frequency response correlates to various volumes/power levels, so you know how flat they are at your listening levels and whether they can potentially reproduce the peaks required of them.

It's why I measured the power response of my sub-speaker setup with REW at varying SPLs. I made sweeps at 75db, then 85db, 95db and 105db from the exact same mic location to see how the graphs translated. Any signs of compression/distortion on the higher SPL graphs would show me if the speakers, subs or amps were incapable of flat response to THX Reference levels at my MLP. The graphs all traced identically, which put that worry to rest.

P.S. just noted your post about the lack of 'slam', which potentially indicates a deficiency somewhere in the chain. You have a different problem than what Sanjay was describing about true 'stereo bass', where decorrelation and phase differences occur due to the timing differences from the different arrivals of soundwaves to the stereo mics are reproduced by the sound system.

In your case, the scenes used aren't exactly stereo mic'ed material, and as such, the decorrelation and phase differences shouldn't be affecting the 'bass slam' in the same manner. The difference in bass slam from the differences in power response capability could then be the dominant characteristic.



I will definitely report back on the results and specify the review material so other folks can try it too (if their system is capable of it).


Max

Max, thank you for that long and helpful post. I suspect the loss of 'slam' that I heard was due to lowering the XOs to 50Hz. My speakers are designed to be used with a 80Hz XO so it's not really surprising that trying to make them go lower isn't helping (despite Audyssey's F3 reporting at 50Hz - explained by you in your reply as well). My subs are capable down to 20Hz and it seems that using them to cover 80Hz down to 20Hz is better than using them to cover 50Hz down to 20Hz. If my LCR can't make a decent job of 50Hz to 80Hz, which seems likely, then by using the 50Hz XO I am 'losing' the grunt between 50Hz and 80Hz which my subs usually provide.

On a slightly different issue, I did read that with a THX-spec AVP like my 5509, when they are set to use an 80Hz XO (which is displayed as '80Hz THX' in the menus) they do some internal jiggery-pokery which changes the nature of the XO - I mean something to do with 2nd Order or 4th Order or whatever. Sorry to be vague - this is something I read briefly on a web site and I was pre-occupied with other matters that day and then could never find the darn site again to read it properly. If this is indeed the case, and part of their THX specification, then it may also have some sort of bearing on all this, when also used with THX speakers. Just a thought. Excuse the rambling...
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

You forgot to add the acoustic speaker crossover slope to the electronic AVR crossover slope (HP and LP). You know, the way that the total rolloff of the THX AVR crossovers work with THX speakers!

By amazing coincidence, I just remembered reading about something to do with this - please see my post to Max.

Can you elaborate on it for me, or point me to a site? Thanks.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

By amazing coincidence, I just remembered reading about something to do with this - please see my post to Max.

Can you elaborate on it for me, or point me to a site? Thanks.

Quote:


THX satellite speakers by definition have a 2nd order roll-off at 80 Hz (-3dB). The THX processor applies a further 2nd order 80 Hz roll-off to the speaker signal, the sum constituting a 4th order high-pass. The subwoofer signal gets a 4th order roll-off at the same 80 Hz and Presto!: A perfect 4th order Linkwitz/Riley crossover with its characteristic freedom from phase shift and low subwoofer detection, thanks to the steep slope.

from
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...es-6-2005.html


Max
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:39 AM
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Tried it. Used pod race and Transformers 1. For me, not worth it. I lost bass slam and that was about it. No real benefits as a tradeoff. Back to 80Hz XO all round. But my speakers are designed for an 80Hz XO anyway - others with 'full range' speakers may find differences that are worthwhile.

Geee whiz, it sure would be nice to see an Omnimic graph at your MLP for both XO settings. Just saying ... when you have the time ...
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

4. Do subs usually have line level outputs?

I think he means speaker-level connection.

Some do. Some don't. If one were implementing a NO SUB setup, the more important question would be, if they ARE present, whether those outputs are high-passed (fixed) or not. Some are. Some aren't. Whether they are or not and whether you use them or not is going to affect the bass routing in this sort of NO SUB scheme. But, either way (high-passed or not), the NO SUB scheme can be adjusted to work.

If the sub has no speaker-level outputs (the front speakers would be connected conventionally in this case), or if it does have them but they are not high-passed, then the speakers will simply receive a full-range signal with this sort of NO SUB setup and the subs' LPFs would be adjusted as best as possible to their in-room roll-off.

If the speaker-level outputs are high-passed, and are used for that, then the subs' LPFs would be adjusted as best as possible to the fixed HPF that is being imposed or to the roll-off of the speakers in the circumstance where the speakers rolled off even higher than that fixed HPF (smallish speakers).

And, no, I am not necessarily recommending using this sort of NO SUB scheme. Just pointing out how it would be implemented under the different circumstances.

With an AVR with pre-outs, btw, a speaker-level connection to the subs would not be necessary with the NO SUB scheme unless one wanted to specifically high-pass their front speakers off of subs that DID apply a HPF to their speaker-level outputs.

And there are subs with line-level (pre-amp level) outputs. And just like the speaker-level outputs, some are high-passed (fixed) and some aren't.



Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

............but I do believe that when using the line level inputs the LPF does act as a crossover and affects which freq go to the sub vs the mains.

The knob only adjusts the LPF value. As I pointed out above, if they are equipped with them, some subs' speaker-level outputs ARE high-passed, but at a fixed value usually in the neighborhood of 80-120Hz.

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Old 02-23-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Geee whiz, it sure would be nice to see an Omnimic graph at your MLP for both XO settings. Just saying ... when you have the time ...

I hate getting that OmniMic out you know. I get it out to do a simple measurement and then do just one more and then decide to just try something so I can see and then go back to check something and then, well there's always just one more isn't there.... And before you know it, half the day is gone. But OK, Jeff. When I get time.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:46 PM
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I have the opposite problem, I hate measuring. I do it out of necessity when building speakers and running Audyssey but that's infrequent.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I have the opposite problem, I hate measuring. I do it out of necessity when building speakers and running Audyssey but that's infrequent.

Oh I hate it too, Theresa. It's a sort of compulsion I have once that mic is out and the software is running. Then it's measure measure measure and the day is gone . I have learned a lot from it though.
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Stereo bass doesn't compete with Audyssey so neither can be superior...

Superior in the sense of providing reference-SQ bass reproduction. Isn't that the point of this entire discussion? (Rhetorical)

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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

You can have a system setup for stereo bass with or without any flavor Audyssey. You don't need stereo sub outputs on the receiver. Set receiver to no sub and use the line level inputs on the sub/mains.

I don't get this at all. It sounds to me like you're suggesting setting up a system like we did when there was no proper bass management in the processor and no Audyssey DSP RC. This whole Stereo Bass continues to appear rather unhippishly retro to me. But please see my post below, explaining why there's no good reason for us to continue discussing this here.

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Old 02-23-2012, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

That would be stereo subwoofers, not stereo bass. There is a difference...

A distinction lost on me and which will remain so for the reason Keith gives below. I'm following his lead out of the discussion. This is not worth expending mental energy on, much less actual experimentation.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Feri, I think this is a waste of time. You (and I, and most others) are never going to run our systems in that configuration for all sorts of reasons. I am happy with the terrific sound I get in my small HT and can't really see me wanting to try a non-standard setup like that, just to get the dubious benefits of 'stereo bass', with no real tradeoff for all the benefits I'd lose by setting up that way. I suspect you feel the same. Personally, I'd rather listen to THX and Audyssey and follow their suggestions. Others may continue this debate for as many more pages as they have strength for, but I'm ducking out of it now.

+1 I still can't figure out why this discussion is taking place in the Audyssey thread.

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Old 02-23-2012, 02:23 PM
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Three posts (so far) about leaving instead of just leaving.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:28 PM
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Three posts (so far) about leaving instead of just leaving.

Make it 4.

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Old 02-23-2012, 02:45 PM
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Does anyone here know if Onkyo 809 receiver has a way to calibrate two subs? Or we just have to use the alternate instruction and do it manually?
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:49 PM
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Three posts (so far) about leaving instead of just leaving.

Plus your post about posts about leaving

Do you not think it's legitimate to make a final contribution and in that contribution to say that it will be the final contribution then?

I mean, at least that way there actually IS a contribution. As opposed to a post about posts, which contributes, er, nothing.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DESCypher View Post

Does anyone here know if Onkyo 809 receiver has a way to calibrate two subs? Or we just have to use the alternate instruction and do it manually?

Nope ... you would have to upgrade to the 3009 w/MultEQ XT32 for that capability. Rather use the dual sub setup procedure in the Audyssey Setup Guide.

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Old 02-23-2012, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Superior in the sense of providing reference-SQ bass reproduction. Isn't that the point of this entire discussion? (Rhetorical)

Yes, but did the mixing stage use bass management when creating the reference mix?

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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I don't get this at all. It sounds to me like you're suggesting setting up a system like we did when there was no proper bass management in the processor and no Audyssey DSP RC. This whole Stereo Bass continues to appear rather unhippishly retro to me. But please see my post below, explaining why there's no good reason for us to continue discussing this here.

Yes, one way of doing it is the "retro" approach. My point was if people wanted to try it they could, no need to purchase one of few pre/pros with stereo sub outputs.

I tried, very early on in the subject to move the discussion to the thread below but no one followed and said it belonged here. But we can try again.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1393245
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DESCypher View Post

Does anyone here know if Onkyo 809 receiver has a way to calibrate two subs? Or we just have to use the alternate instruction and do it manually?

Only units with XT32 are able to calibrate two subs properly. The best way to calibrate two subs otherwise is:
  1. Use a Y connector to hook the two subs to one Sub Output on the AVR.
  2. In the AVR menus, set to ONE sub.
  3. Turn off Sub 2 and use the test tones to set Sub 1 to 72dB using an SPL meter
  4. Turn off Sub 1 and use the test tones to set Sub 2 to 72dB.
  5. Turn both subs back on.
  6. Run Audyssey which will now see both subs as one and EQ them together.

It is important that the subs are, ideally, identical and that they are placed equidistant from the MLP. The reason for this is that the AVR/Audyssey will measure their distance from the MLP 'as one' and set the delays accordingly, so it is important to both subs the same distance from the MLP. Identical subs are best, among other reasons, because all subs introduce a delay due to their internal processing and there is no way to know what this delay is - so if using two different subs this will be a potential problem wrt to Audyssey setting the correct delay when the subs are Y-ed together.

If it is not possible to place the subs equidistant from the MLP, then you could run Audyssey one one sub and read off the delay set after the calibration, then do the same with the other sub and then take an average of the two and use that. It's not ideal though and the best plan is to set them equidistantly if at all possible.

Also, read the Guide linked in my sig and look for dual sub setup procedure.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

...I tried, very early on in the subject to move the discussion to the thread below but no one followed and said it belonged here. But we can try again.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1393245

Sorry, thanks for reposting that-I missed your effort and that link. Damn day job, just can't keep up on the on the forum lately...

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Old 02-23-2012, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

+1 I still can't figure out why this discussion is taking place in the Audyssey thread.

There is not so much to discuss anymore but I'll add this...

Remember that most mixing studios use "full range" monitor speakers with no bass management.
If you raise the crossover to 80Hz, you will get bass from the subwoofer instead of
the speaker where the mixer intentionally placed it. I would hardly call that Reference which is what Audyssey was all about from the beginning...

My current view: out of the available crossover choices between the automatically choosen and 80Hz, pick the highest crossover which a) doesn't cause bass to be localized and b) which still produces a somewhat flat frequency response (for 2ch stereo: when playing the front speakers speakers together) and c) which sounds best to your ears.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:22 PM
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Well, here's my personal take on raising my crossovers from their default 40Hz to 80Hz all the way round and how it affected things.

First off, a description of my system to establish a baseline.

Multi-disc player: Oppo BDP-93
AVR: Onkyo TX-NR5008
Additional amplifiers: Emotiva XPA-1 500 watt monoblocks for the L/C/R
Speakers: Boston Acoustics E100's for the LCR. My rear surrounds are older 3-ways that have built-in 12" woofers.
Subwoofer: Seaton Submersive HP with built-in 2400 watt amp.

Surround sound:
I watched the pod race scene off the Blu Ray of Star Wars Ep 1 probably about 15-16 times going back and forth between 80Hz and 40Hz.

I first watched the entire scene with my regular 40Hz crossovers, then watched the entire scene again after changing all the crossovers to 80Hz, then went back and watched those scenes/chapters again with the crossovers reverted back to 40Hz, and yet again with them set to 80Hz.

I then used the A-B function of the Oppo to continuously loop specific scenes from those chapters while switching between the 40Hz and 80Hz settings.

My take on it after all that?
1) In my system, there is no lack of 'slam' in either setting. The overall SPL's and impact in the lower octaves is similar
2) There IS a discernible difference between the two settings in my system. As it turns out, after doing this test, it appears I can localize bass noises below 80Hz to some extent.

In some of the scenes that I replayed/looped back to back, over and over again, I could actually hear the difference between the crossovers in what sounds came from the satellites vs which were handed over to the sub, i.e. in some of the scenes where the other pods fly by, with the 80Hz setting, I could hear that the upper frequencies panned with the speakers, but the low end 'rumble' didn't pan, whereas with the 40Hz crossovers, the entire sound effect of the pod flying by panned across the speakers.

There was a point where I could no longer localize panning though. Basically the really low end of the rumble was non-localizable, but that range appears to be below the 40Hz crossover setting, as once again, I could hear some of the low end rumbles of the pods flying by NOT panning when set to 80Hz, where I would hear it all pan when set to 40Hz, but the lowest/deepest rumbles sounded... formless/sourceless and non-localizable regardless of crossover setting.

For me, this made the 40Hz setting more involving in those scenes, because it produced a much more realistic effect of a large object producing high SPL low frequency noise passing by, as opposed to the 80Hz setting that had the higher frequencies pan, but all the sound from 80Hz down not move around the room.

Had I not specifically tried this and demo'ed them back to back, I would not have realized that I could hear/sense this difference. It's a bit of a downer to me personally, because I was planning to timbre match the rear surrounds using smaller versions of the E100's that have the same tweeter, but those speakers (E70's) have a -3db point of about 63Hz anechoic. Now I have to think deep and hard about this, and it's going to be a pain should I ever decide to change my surround setup, knowing that I'll now have to look into surrounds that can run flat down to the 30's, where it would be so much cheaper and easier to look at all the options that only need to go flat to THX 80Hz specs.

As I mentioned earlier in the discussion, I've also determined that there is a percussive/concussive factor to low frequency capable surrounds. In that example I'd mentioned, it's easy to roughly indicate the direction of the explosion of a bigger firecracker from the direction of the pressure/shock wave. I find this evident in movies with surround gunfire too, and once again, the 80Hz crossover tends to neuter that.

As far as music goes, the effect is much more subtle in my setup, but it's there on tracks where there's material in that region between the 40 and 80Hz crossover settings.

Chesky records is known for their use of stereo mic'ing, in particular, their use of single point mic'ing with a Blumlein pair configuration. This mic'ing technique tends to produce recordings that not only capture the artists, but the space they were recorded in as well.

On David Chesky's Area 31 album, tracks 3 and 4 particularly (Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, Tom Chiu, violin: Allegro Maestoso and Wonjung Kim: The Girl From Guatemala respectively) both exhibited these differences with the 2 crossover settings, because both these tracks have instruments digging into that 40Hz-80Hz range (and on rare occasion, a little lower even).

One of the things about Blumlein mic'ing is that properly done, they not only convey a sense of the space the recording was made in, but they produce recordings with soundstages that appear to have greater depth. The 80Hz setting on those tracks produced a flatter fuzzier depth image of the bass in those 2 tracks than the 40Hz setting, but as I mentioned, the difference was more subtle to me than the more blatant, "these frequencies are panning and THESE frequencies are no longer panning" differences in the Star Wars sequences.

As always, YMMV, but it looks like I'm going to be sticking to the 40Hz crossover settings on my own system.

As far as the point of this discussion taking place in the Audyssey thread, as has already been mentioned numerous times, I'd say it definitely has merit and is on-topic as the previous common advice was simply, "run Audyssey, raise all crossovers to 80Hz if they are set lower. Do not lower any crossovers". Well, in my own setup, it seems that there are benefits to using lower crossovers if the system is capable of reproducing them flat at the volumes that will be used.


Max
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:27 PM
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^rickardl, I believe you're referring to music studios and that is a valid point. IMO if I hear very close to what the mixer heard, I'm good to go.
Your approach to optimizing bass SQ seems quite reasonable to me.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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Old 02-23-2012, 03:37 PM
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Thanks djbluemax1! What you describe is pretty much spot on to the differences I heard as well. Nice write-up.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

My current view: out of the available crossover choices between the automatically choosen and 80Hz, pick the highest crossover which a) doesn't cause bass to be localized and b) which still produces a somewhat flat frequency response (for 2ch stereo: when playing the front speakers speakers together) and c) which sounds best to your ears.

Hi Rickard,

a) bass localization, as you also surely are aware of, has been beaten to death a million times here, so picking the highest crossover that doesn't cause bass to be localized should always be understood as "bass fundamental frequency", while letting her harmonics lead us to spot the bass player, e.g. on the left side of the sound stage is nothing against the principle. 80 Hz is not an arbitrary number, but a result of experiments with the human ear, so in this regard a little +/- may occur, but basically is the threshold of human perception in regards of localization of low frequencies.

b) Flat is good and essential, better said vital for a fine SQ. If its not flat the phenomenon of "masking" may easily occur, meaning a weaker frequency is masked if it is made inaudible or less audible in the presence of a louder frequency. Un-flat can make a severe contribution to masking.

c) Agree, once the FR is flat.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Well, here's my personal take on raising my crossovers from their default 40Hz to 80Hz all the way round and how it affected things.
1) In my system, there is no lack of 'slam' in either setting. The overall SPL's and impact in the lower octaves is similar
2) There IS a discernible difference between the two settings in my system. As it turns out, after doing this test, it appears I can localize bass noises below 80Hz to some extent.

...
I could actually hear the difference between the crossovers in what sounds came from the satellites vs which were handed over to the sub, i.e. in some of the scenes where the other pods fly by, with the 80Hz setting, I could hear that the upper frequencies panned with the speakers, but the low end 'rumble' didn't pan, whereas with the 40Hz crossovers, the entire sound effect of the pod flying by panned across the speakers.

...
I could hear some of the low end rumbles of the pods flying by NOT panning when set to 80Hz, where I would hear it all pan when set to 40Hz...

For me, this made the 40Hz setting more involving in those scenes, because it produced a much more realistic effect of a large object producing high SPL low frequency noise passing by, as opposed to the 80Hz setting that had the higher frequencies pan, but all the sound from 80Hz down not move around the room.

As far as the point of this discussion taking place in the Audyssey thread, as has already been mentioned numerous times, I'd say it definitely has merit and is on-topic as the previous common advice was simply, "run Audyssey, raise all crossovers to 80Hz if they are set lower. Do not lower any crossovers". Well, in my own setup, it seems that there are benefits to using lower crossovers if the system is capable of reproducing them flat at the volumes that will be used.

Thanks for writing this down! It ties in perfectly with what I just wrote above: Do you want the hear the sound(ie bass) from the speaker where the mixer intentionally placed it or from the subwoofer(s)?

Have you tried 50Hz or 60Hz? If 60Hz sounds ok, then maybe you will get away with using those E70's.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

80 Hz is not an arbitrary number, but a result of experiments with the human ear, so in this regard a little +/- may occur, but basically is the threshold of human perception in regards of localization of low frequencies.

How come I hear bass directionality at 60Hz then?
How come djbluemax1 hears difference between 40Hz and 80Hz?
Do we have super hearing like Superman?
How come the guys at Audioholics recommend 60Hz instead of the common 80Hz after blindfolded listening tests?
Or, in the paper I quoted earlier, how could people tell the difference between mono and stereo bass even at 45Hz?
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

How come I hear bass directionality at 60Hz then?
How come djbluemax1 hears difference between 40Hz and 80Hz?
Do we have super hearing like Superman?
How come the guys at Audioholics recommend 60Hz instead of the common 80Hz after blindfolded listening tests?
Or, in the paper I quoted earlier, how could people tell the difference between mono and stereo bass even at 45Hz?

Because 80Hz was established as nondirectional for MOST of the subjects.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

How come I hear bass directionality at 60Hz then?
How come djbluemax1 hears difference between 40Hz and 80Hz?
Do we have super hearing like Superman?
How come the guys at Audioholics recommend 60Hz instead of the common 80Hz after blindfolded listening tests?
Or, in the paper I quoted earlier, how could people tell the difference between mono and stereo bass even at 45Hz?

Rickard, when we are talking about 80 Hz (or any other frequency), aren't we are talking about one discrete frequency, a sinusoidal wave that is genuine, free of harmonics. No, we don't have super hearing like Clark Kent, because we are human!

Try to play distortion free sine waves on your system and you will see!
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