"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1700 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:20 PM
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Please take a look at the post-calibration screenshots below:




Bass is lacking on the Front Towers when Audyssey EQ is used (despite being set to FULL). The towers are front-ported, and im guessing that affected the EQ during calibration. There is an option with my Denon to apply Audyssey EQ to all speakers except L+R. Is this an acceptable option for Movies? I have no sub...and I wont be able to purchase one.
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post


I have no sub...and I wont be able to purchase one.

Your BIGGEST mistake - LFE requires at least TWO subs - although some are "satisfied" with ONE
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:52 PM
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I can't have a sub in my apt. Two would be a dream.
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Old 02-25-2012, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Audyssey is rolling off bass on my towers, despite setting them as "FULL". I have no sub woofer, so it sounds like I have no LFE/Bass for movies. I followed the guides to the T... Any suggestions on what I can check?

If I'm not mistaken, the screen shots that you present are the correction that Audyssey is making. As is often the case, there is a broad mode between about 30 and 100 Hz and the plots show that is being corrected. The correction tapers off at the low end which means that Audyssey is not rolling off your sub at the low end. It's not changing the low end but is getting rid of the broad peak that peaks at about 80 Hz in your left main (knocked down 10 db) and 60 Hz in your right main (knocked down about 5 db).

The result is that you are getting much less bass in the region where most bass frequencies fall, roughly from 30 or 40 to 100 Hz, than you were before applying Audyssey. That will certainly make your bass seem weak compared to what it was before being corrected. But, assuming the calibration went well, you are now getting the bass that you should have if you want relatively flat response. You may get used to having this proper amount of bass, or you may want to crank it up. That's personal preference. At least if you leave audyssey engaged on your mains, you are starting from a flat response and will be cranking up a flat bass region, from 20 to 100 Hz, rather than just pushing up a peak that is already excessive at 80 or 60 Hz (left & right respectively).

In my opinion bass should not be obvious or stand out. It should just be there and not take attention away from the full spectrum of sound. I found I enjoyed music much more when I learned that it shouldn't be all about bass. But, that's me. Your personal preference should dictate. Leave Audyssey on and adjust from there if you want more bass. You will be getting much better bass, i.e., flatter and a good crossover.
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Old 02-25-2012, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eiger View Post

Hey Guys ............
2) I have 7 theater seats. A front row of 4 seats, and a back row of 3 seats. What do you reccomend for my first and second measurement locations? The Audyssey document doesn't really match dedicated seating, but it implies I should measure the back row first???? Thanks!

What I do is put the first mic measurement at my seat. I'm the fussiest one in the group. My wife is much less concerned but since it's often just the two of us I do multiple measurements around her seat (though not as many as around mine). Then a few at the other seats.

Only the first mic position is different; it sets the speaker timing. The first and remaining readings all have equal weight in the EQ settings and control the size of the bubble that is corrected. You can bias the corrections in favor of one seat by taking multiple measurements around that seat as I mentioned above.

Keep in mind that the larger the listening bubble you correct, the less refined the corrections are. I.e., if you correct for just two seats, those two seats will have a better correction than they will if other seats are included in the listening bubble.
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Old 02-25-2012, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Absolutely. I have used XT and currently use XT32. XT is good with two subs, subject the provisos you mention. XT32 is much better.

Definitely agree. Until recently I was using XT with a SubEQ. The SubEQ was an improvement over having two subs in parallel on the XT system, but not a dramatic one. I now have XT32 that should perform about the same sub-wise but add the improved resolution of the filtering. I was happily surprised by the move from XT plus SubEQ to XT32. The improvement step is very significant.

I was very surprised when my less critical wife observed that "wow that really sounds good" when she first heart the XT32 system. She was happy with XT and the SubEQ but not overly impressed. The move up to XT32 was very worthwhile.

Only those of us over about 60 will appreciate this, but Audyssey very much helps us decipher voices accompanied by considerable background noise. XT 32 does that better than XT. I also found the surround performance improved. We were watching something the other night where it was raining in the scene. The scene mic setup and mixing was probably excellent, but I think XT32 helped our 5.2 system give us rain throughout our listening room!
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

If I'm not mistaken, the screen shots that you present are the correction that Audyssey is making. As is often the case, there is a broad mode between about 30 and 100 Hz and the plots show that is being corrected. The correction tapers off at the low end which means that Audyssey is not rolling off your sub at the low end. It's not changing the low end but is getting rid of the broad peak that peaks at about 80 Hz in your left main (knocked down 10 db) and 60 Hz in your right main (knocked down about 5 db).

The result is that you are getting much less bass in the region where most bass frequencies fall, roughly from 30 or 40 to 100 Hz, than you were before applying Audyssey. That will certainly make your bass seem weak compared to what it was before being corrected. But, assuming the calibration went well, you are now getting the bass that you should have if you want relatively flat response. You may get used to having this proper amount of bass, or you may want to crank it up. That's personal preference. At least if you leave audyssey engaged on your mains, you are starting from a flat response and will be cranking up a flat bass region, from 20 to 100 Hz, rather than just pushing up a peak that is already excessive at 80 or 60 Hz (left & right respectively).

In my opinion bass should not be obvious or stand out. It should just be there and not take attention away from the full spectrum of sound. I found I enjoyed music much more when I learned that it shouldn't be all about bass. But, that's me. Your personal preference should dictate. Leave Audyssey on and adjust from there if you want more bass. You will be getting much better bass, i.e., flatter and a good crossover.


Thats great advice, thank you. Previously I had another receiver (MultiEQ) and didnt have this 'problem'. Perhaps MultiEQ XT did a better job at leveling my speakers.

With a Denon 2312, I dont think its possible to adjust the EQ with Audyssey on. I'll look into other options in improving perceived bass a bit.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:37 AM
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Go on...

Someone who has little idea has to ask why do i really need 2 subs ?

Thanks

Allan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flageborg View Post

Your BIGGEST mistake - LFE requires at least TWO subs - although some are "satisfied" with ONE

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Old 02-26-2012, 01:49 AM
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Hi Keith

By the time you had posted i was travelling lol

I bought a used 12 inch SVS PC ultra 12. My lord they are monsters in size not really tried it yet though enough to know it works. One thing for sure is i won't be fitting 2 in my room its only 12 * 14.5 feet if i put 2 i would leave no place to sit.

My thoughts are see what difference it makes if i like it keep it if not sell it on i paid £475 plus a fair bit of fuel.

My fingers are crossed if all goes well probably sell the Kef sub, thats assuming i am correct and using that as sub 2 would be a waste of time.

Only problem with hobbies is they tend to be addictive, i am 58 started at about 12 and for 40 odd years spent way more than i should on gear but its the 1 hobby that has stayed all that time.

Just need a lottery win then i can have a new house large ciinema room ,,, better stop dreaming now.

You may find i have an odd question or 3 now qstn 1 what do you think is needed for a sub interconnect please.

Thanks

Allan

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

SVS are world-class subs - you won't find anything like them at Richer's. The used ones could be a great buy - what model are they and how much? Might be worth the petrol.

WRT to 2 smaller ones - I'd be wary of anything smaller than a 12 inch personally. If you could get two 12 inch units, you'd find a big improvement in the bass smoothness in your room. Definitely worth buying two if you can. If you do use two, it's best to have two identical units and, with XT, to place them equidistant from the MLP.

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Old 02-26-2012, 02:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flageborg View Post

Find it difficult to understand why you choose Pod Race scene to evaluate which crossover to use...?

This soundtrack has to much 35Hz-40Hz dominant "lfe"...

Its more like in the old days at cinema, when they switched on/off speakers with 50Hz to make tings "rumble"...

What's difficult to understand? If you want to hear whether it makes a difference, you pick something with material in the range where it might make a difference.

If you want to see which of two cars accelerates from 100-150mph faster, you take them to a racetrack and run them from 100-150. You don't drive to the grocery store on the corner staying below the 35mph speed limit.


Max
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Thats great advice, thank you. Previously I had another receiver (MultiEQ) and didnt have this 'problem'. Perhaps MultiEQ XT did a better job at leveling my speakers.

With a Denon 2312, I dont think its possible to adjust the EQ with Audyssey on. I'll look into other options in improving perceived bass a bit.

Did you move your tower speakers at all from previous setup to this one?

Jeff
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

...Keep in mind that the larger the listening bubble you correct, the less refined the corrections are. I.e., if you correct for just two seats, those two seats will have a better correction than they will if other seats are included in the listening bubble.

Hi. Allow me to add some comments to your statement. First, the MLP seat should be situated so that it forms a roughly equilateral triangle with FR/L and is at the focal point of the speaker array, with the speakers placed so the angles conform to the guide attached below.

Other than Mic pos #1, it is probably best to not be concerned about sampling "seats"; instead decide how large an area you'll use for sampling. You can then just distribute the remaining mic positions evenly throughtout. Some folks, like myself, have reported better results by keeping all the mic positions within 3-4' of MLP in any direction. I am situated only 9' from the fronts so my sampling area is roughly a 31/2' square, rather on the small side.
LL

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Old 02-26-2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Thats great advice, thank you. Previously I had another receiver (MultiEQ) and didnt have this 'problem'. Perhaps MultiEQ XT did a better job at leveling my speakers. With a Denon 2312, I dont think its possible to adjust the EQ with Audyssey on. I'll look into other options in improving perceived bass a bit.

Yes, XT can do more correction than MultEQ.

It's a good idea to just listen to the flatter, more reference-like bass you have now for a few weeks to allow yourself time to acclimate. But of course you can adjust the EQ with Audyssey. First off, avail yourself of DEQ. Tweak it for non-film sources using RLO-see your OM for details. If you don't use DEQ, you can use the tone control-see your OM for details. You can also trim up the sub channel in the AVR. For cruddy music sources, try Restorer HQ.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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Old 02-26-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flageborg View Post


Your BIGGEST mistake - LFE requires at least TWO subs - although some are "satisfied" with ONE

My 1 sub does "alright", but then it's a custom 4x15" line array.....link in my signature.
Possible I might add a 2nd helper sub, not for spl (I'm 126db), but the OCD in me wants +-5db flat at all 8 seat positions, and 3 seat positions have some dips that a helper sub would do nicely on.

If focusing on a small area(1-2 seat posn) then with placement and eq you can get flat, but multi row/multi seat definitely multi subs make life easier to reach flat/near flat.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Did you move your tower speakers at all from previous setup to this one?

Jeff

No. The only difference here is 2EQ vs MultiEQXT.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

No. The only difference here is 2EQ vs MultiEQXT.

Ahhhh, 2EQ does not provide equalization/correction on the subwoofer channel. So my guess is that you had gotten used to some fortuitous peaks that made the bass sound lacking when they were corrected. What usually goes unnoticed are the frequencies that are notched out by nulls, but there are usually as many of those as there are peaks. In systems with a uncorrected subwoofer, a "walking" bass guitar will have some notes much louder than they were played and some notes just plain missing. Correcting that, MultEQ XT will make them play at the level the bass player intended, but those "satisfying" peaks are gone, and this makes some people think their bass is weak.

Jeff
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:35 AM
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I watched several films yesterday and am really enjoying the new found clarity. Thanks all.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Some folks, like myself, have reported better results by keeping all the mic positions within 3-4' of MLP in any direction.

Indeed, a couple of local friends have Audyssey-based systems that I listen to regularly, and both got noticeable improvements by tightening the mic pattern. With that in mind, users should seriously think about who will be sitting outside the main listening position, especially in situations where there are multiple rows: are those listeners critical enough that it is worth sacrificing better results at the MLP? The answer will vary by user, but it is something to weigh when considering mic patterns.

Sanjay
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Definitely agree. Until recently I was using XT with a SubEQ. The SubEQ was an improvement over having two subs in parallel on the XT system, but not a dramatic one. I now have XT32 that should perform about the same sub-wise but add the improved resolution of the filtering. I was happily surprised by the move from XT plus SubEQ to XT32. The improvement step is very significant.

I was very surprised when my less critical wife observed that "wow that really sounds good" when she first heart the XT32 system. She was happy with XT and the SubEQ but not overly impressed. The move up to XT32 was very worthwhile.

Only those of us over about 60 will appreciate this, but Audyssey very much helps us decipher voices accompanied by considerable background noise. XT 32 does that better than XT. I also found the surround performance improved. We were watching something the other night where it was raining in the scene. The scene mic setup and mixing was probably excellent, but I think XT32 helped our 5.2 system give us rain throughout our listening room!

Everything you found was also found by me. I had two subs + XT + SVS AS-EQ1 and then moved to two subs + XT32. Big improvement all round, and especially noticeable in the higher, non-bass frequencies. Clarity, precision, imaging all improved. Also, I agree about dialogue too - also improved. XT32 really is a step up in every way and well worth the cost.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan0210 View Post

I bought a used 12 inch SVS PC ultra 12. My lord they are monsters in size not really tried it yet though enough to know it works. One thing for sure is i won't be fitting 2 in my room its only 12 * 14.5 feet if i put 2 i would leave no place to sit.

Hi Allan... yes they are a bit big at first. But you'll soon get used to it. I have two PC12s in a smaller room than yours

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My thoughts are see what difference it makes if i like it keep it if not sell it on i paid £475 plus a fair bit of fuel.

Great price, great sub. You got a bargain there I'd say.

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My fingers are crossed if all goes well probably sell the Kef sub, thats assuming i am correct and using that as sub 2 would be a waste of time.

Yes - it wouldn't work too well IMO and IME. I tried a B&W ASW610 as a second sub to my SVS and it lasted less than a day before I removed it and ordered a second PC12.

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Only problem with hobbies is they tend to be addictive, i am 58 started at about 12 and for 40 odd years spent way more than i should on gear but its the 1 hobby that has stayed all that time.

Same here. Started with stereo way back in the 70s. Been an enthusiast ever since. Daren't think what I have spent over the years.

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Originally Posted by allan0210 View Post

You may find i have an odd question or 3 now qstn 1 what do you think is needed for a sub interconnect please.

Oh any decent sub cable will do. Don't waste money on 'magic cables' - just get something mechanically sound and of decent overall quality. I bought a whole bunch of interconnects from MonoPrice in the States some time back - they are totally fine. No Monoprice equivalent in the UK unfortunately so just have a Google around.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Ahhhh, 2EQ does not provide equalization/correction on the subwoofer channel. So my guess is that you had gotten used to some fortuitous peaks that made the bass sound lacking when they were corrected. What usually goes unnoticed are the frequencies that are notched out by nulls, but there are usually as many of those as there are peaks. In systems with a uncorrected subwoofer, a "walking" bass guitar will have some notes much louder than they were played and some notes just plain missing. Correcting that, MultEQ XT will make them play at the level the bass player intended, but those "satisfying" peaks are gone, and this makes some people think their bass is weak.

Jeff

You need that on a macro, Jeff
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Indeed, a couple of local friends have Audyssey-based systems that I listen to regularly, and both got noticeable improvements by tightening the mic pattern. With that in mind, users should seriously think about who will be sitting outside the main listening position, especially in situations where there are multiple rows: are those listeners critical enough that it is worth sacrificing better results at the MLP? The answer will vary by user, but it is something to weigh when considering mic patterns.

How tight did they go, Sanjay? As tight as SoM's 3.5 foot square or less tight? I will be getting my Pro kit soon and re-doing my calibration so this is something I may try myself. I'm wondering if there is any benefit to doing a lot of measurements in a tight space, if the space between mic positions is only going to be a few inches. I’ll have 32 options open to me with Pro - do you think it would be useful to take as many as, say, 15 measurements in a space defined as about 4 feet by 3 feet? Thanks.
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Old 02-26-2012, 11:06 AM
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Hi Keith thanks for the information, i have now had a chance to run a 3 mic location Audyssey set up an the sub is blending much better now even though the gain was low it was over a 110db when i checked the sound level.

I have tried it with some of my test bits like Jurasic Park and Terminator 2 much better though at the moment by ear the surround speakers seem better at 100Hz than 120Hz may just be me getting used to it.

I think this is a keeper i noticed another SVS PC 12 for sale but it is not the Ultra so i guess it would not be a great match anyway.

Silly qstn if SVS fail do we have UK repair agents or when it dies is it dead.

Looks like my trusty Kef will go for sale soon and the centre will probably join it. For now i will keep the sats i like them and i have them already.

Many thanks

Allan

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Allan... yes they are a bit big at first. But you'll soon get used to it. I have two PC12s in a smaller room than yours



Great price, great sub. You got a bargain there I'd say.



Yes - it wouldn't work too well IMO and IME. I tried a B&W ASW610 as a second sub to my SVS and it lasted less than a day before I removed it and ordered a second PC12.



Same here. Started with stereo way back in the 70s. Been an enthusiast ever since. Daren't think what I have spent over the years.



Oh any decent sub cable will do. Don't waste money on 'magic cables' - just get something mechanically sound and of decent overall quality. I bought a whole bunch of interconnects from MonoPrice in the States some time back - they are totally fine. No Monoprice equivalent in the UK unfortunately so just have a Google around.

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Old 02-26-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by allan0210 View Post

Hi Keith thanks for the information, i have now had a chance to run a 3 mic location Audyssey set up an the sub is blending much better now even though the gain was low it was over a 110db when i checked the sound level.

Do run as many Audyssey mic positions as you can when you get chance. The more you use the better the calibration.

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I have tried it with some of my test bits like Jurasic Park and Terminator 2 much better though at the moment by ear the surround speakers seem better at 100Hz than 120Hz may just be me getting used to it.

100Hz is probably OK. Try it both ways and go with your ears. You might want to turn up the trim a few dB on the sub channel, just for fun, while you are amazing yourself with the SVS's bass performance You can turn it back to a more accurate, flat response later once you have got over the room shaking etc....

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I think this is a keeper i noticed another SVS PC 12 for sale but it is not the Ultra so i guess it would not be a great match anyway.

It's best to keep them identical if possible.

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Silly qstn if SVS fail do we have UK repair agents or when it dies is it dead.

SVS have a European distributor (L-Sound in Norway) and they are extremely customer-focused and would help you if the sub failed. But what can fail really? There's the amp, which you could swap out yourself in about 10 minutes (SVS will supply one if needed) and there's the driver, which is very unlikely to fail, but even if it did, again you can swap it out in a few minutes. So, don't sweat it!
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:22 PM
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- do you think it would be useful to take as many as, say, 15 measurements in a space defined as about 4 feet by 3 feet? Thanks.

Not Sanjay and this is not the pro kit thread, but I use 12 pos for a Pro cal in that same aforementioned space that I used to be able to only sample with 8. I believe the Pro guideline says it's diminishing returns, though I'd probably use 15 if I had a larger space and decided to try sampling a larger area. This is a YMMV.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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Old 02-26-2012, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Not Sanjay and this is not the pro kit thread, but I use 12 pos for a Pro cal in that same aforementioned space that I used to be able to only sample with 8. I believe the Pro guideline says it's diminishing returns, though I'd probably use 15 if I had a larger space and decided to try sampling a larger area. This is a YMMV.

Definitely Keith Thanks, SoM.... I may well try somewhere between 10 and 15 then and see how I get on. I was just wondering really what the 'critical' spacing was between mic positions. I guess 6 inches would be enough to make a difference, but going much closer together than that probably doesn't (less than a head width). I'll see how many I can pack in to a 4x3 foot measuring area then. Thanks.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Hi. Allow me to add some comments to your statement. First, the MLP seat should be situated so that it forms a roughly equilateral triangle with FR/L and is at the focal point of the speaker array, with the speakers placed so the angles conform to the guide attached below.

You are correct, and you are being fair to all listeners with this approach. I'm not so generous. I make my seat MLP because I'm the most anal listener.

cheers
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Indeed, a couple of local friends have Audyssey-based systems that I listen to regularly, and both got noticeable improvements by tightening the mic pattern. With that in mind, users should seriously think about who will be sitting outside the main listening position, especially in situations where there are multiple rows: are those listeners critical enough that it is worth sacrificing better results at the MLP? The answer will vary by user, but it is something to weigh when considering mic patterns.

I remember that Chris K advised that a measurement point was taken in every direction from the MLP. So take one in front of MLP, even if nobody is sitting there. I my case, with 8 points in non-pro XT32, I'd take 4 measurements on the 4 couch positions (with MLP as #1), 2 in front @ 45° / 2-3 ft from MLP and 2 behind @ 45° / 2-3 ft from MLP (where some folks might be sitting, but only in the weekend or special occasions). This would create a somewhat "oval" sound bubble. A good idea might be to vary the height of point 5/6 and 7/8 to a foot below/above MLP. Sound is 3D afterall.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Only those of us over about 60 will appreciate this, but Audyssey very much helps us decipher voices accompanied by considerable background noise. XT 32 does that better than XT. I also found the surround performance improved. We were watching something the other night where it was raining in the scene. The scene mic setup and mixing was probably excellent, but I think XT32 helped our 5.2 system give us rain throughout our listening room!

You went for towels then?

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:03 PM
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Two questions for you Audyssey Experts:

1) Do any of you leave the x-over settings to what Audyssey recommends even when they are lower than what you *think* is correct, based on published speaker specs? For example, the published -3db is 79hz, and the published "low frequency extension" is 68Hz, yet Audyssey recommends 60hz all around. Any of you leaving the x-over at 60hz?


2) Have your Ninja skills improved, as you find new ways to quickly and quietly exit the room, once you start Audyssey?!

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Old 02-26-2012, 01:03 PM
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^hclarkx, I have a really small sweetspot as I'm so close to the fronts. But noone complains, despite their sitting other than in MLP. Pretty much all guests (and SWMBO) say it sounds better than anything they've ever heard. Personally, if I'm not in MLP, I'm waiting for whoever is there to get up so I can reclaim my rightful place.

I want to clarify that MLP does not suffer at all from sampling an area as I described above for Keith. Quite the opposite. You need to give Audyssey enough data over a large enough area to allow it to detect and correct what's going on in that area of the room. I encourage folks with HT OCD to try several variations on the standard Audyssey recommendations, short of breaking the rules.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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