"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1731 - AVS Forum
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post #51901 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 07:37 AM
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Does anyone know how to add a TABLE to a post in AVS's editor? There is a 'wrap table' option in the advanced editor and I can get it make nice rows but can't get it to make columns. I am trying to do a comparison table for the different versions of Audyssey for the FAQ. Thanks.
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post #51902 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

The thing is that equidistant very well may NOT be ideal at all. I have seen far too many reports of measured improvement at the crossover and audible improvement to SQ when the distance/delay is manipulated when using XT32 to believe that it is a metric adequately solved by Audyssey. I suspect time coherence of subs and satellites has importance, I'm just not sure exactly what it is at this point. Of course the usual disclaimers/heresy regarding measuring discrete locations when evaluating Audyssey apply.

I was referring to XT. With XT32 it doesn't matter if the subs are equidistant or not because they are pinged separately of course.

I think tweaking of the sub distance to try to improve the splice is a separate thing (for the purposes of the discussion re how to set up dual subs with XT, I mean).
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post #51903 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Hi. Probably better to post in the 5508 thread . Items 1 and 2 may indicate that your processor is not functioning properly and may need a reset.

Thanks for the advice. In the meantime, I solved the issue: the ONKYO was also connected through RS232 for the remote control. I think there was in conflict with Audyssey trough LAN.
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post #51904 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


I was referring to XT. With XT32 it doesn't matter if the subs are equidistant or not because they are pinged separately of course.

I think tweaking of the sub distance to try to improve the splice is a separate thing (for the purposes of the discussion re how to set up dual subs with XT, I mean).

Well, not really. My point is that moving the sub (XT) or changing the distance (XT32) is really the same thing as regards distance/delay and has a bearing on the "equidistant" recommendation for XT. That particular guideline could steer many XT users away from a potentially big benefit of using dual subs.

Most subs have level controls which leaves distance/delay as the only real pre-EQ benefit of XT32 over XT and if moving subs and changing distance/delay are the same thing(is it? I'm asking) then we can potentially(within the bounds of potential room locations) achieve the same benefit moving subs with XT as we can changing distance with XT32.
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post #51905 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 08:58 AM
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post #51906 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Well, not really. My point is that moving the sub (XT) or changing the distance (XT32) is really the same thing as regards distance/delay and has a bearing on the "equidistant" recommendation for XT. That particular guideline could steer many XT users away from a potentially big benefit of using dual subs.

IKWYM but it's still the official Audyssey advice to use similar or identical subs equidistantly from the MLP. Changing the delays/distances to try to improve the splice is 'esoteric Audyssey' I think it absolutely demands measuring equipment, and some knowledge of how to use it and how to interpret the results, if one is going to change the Audyssey-set distances. Not that that doesn't make it potentially worthwhile but for most Audyssey users and those without measuring gear, I still say that equidistant is ideally the best way to go. I don't think we are fundamentally in disagreement about this.

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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Most subs have level controls which leaves distance/delay as the only real pre-EQ benefit of XT32 over XT and if moving subs and changing distance/delay are the same thing(is it? I'm asking)

I don't think so - moving the sub will affect the way it interacts with room modes. Changing the distance setting won't, or not in the same way because the sub is still in the same physical position? (Just speculating).

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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

then we can potentially(within the bounds of potential room locations) achieve the same benefit moving subs with XT as we can changing distance with XT32.

Maybe. XT32 will still be way superior to XT though simply because of its far higher filter resolution - 512x vs 128x. Not to mention the VASTLY superior filter resolution for the satellites of course - 16x with XT, 512x with XT32, although that's a different issue.
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post #51907 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Well, not really. My point is that moving the sub (XT) or changing the distance (XT32) is really the same thing as regards distance/delay and has a bearing on the "equidistant" recommendation for XT.
I'm not following. This is getting unnecessarily complex.

Most subs have level controls which leaves distance/delay as the only real pre-EQ benefit of XT32 over XT and if moving subs and changing distance/delay are the same thing(is it? I'm asking) then we can potentially(within the bounds of potential room locations) achieve the same benefit moving subs with XT as we can changing distance with XT32.
First off, with XT when you change the distance it applies to both subs at once. So what would make you think that making that adjustment would be the same as physically moving subs? With XT32, it would be rare for someone to want/need to tweak distances individually. Basically XT32 gets it right. In addition, any distance tweaks should be done with a measurement system, not by ear. And that brings me to my point below...

IMO the FAQ is not for cutting-edge controversial tweaks like improving a single sub's response by tweaking the distance setting in the processor. What could be stressed is that regardless of Audyssey version, to get the most (by that I mean smoothest, tight, punchy bass) out of your 2subs, you have to do a "measured sub haul".
If I have XT, I'll try to find reasonably good spots that yield a fairly flat FR and are equidistant to MLP. With XT32 I'm not under the latter constraint.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #51908 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

I was thinking more about this. Say the closest sub is 5' away and the other one is 10' away. Yes, a sound wave from the first sub will reach the mic first. At, say, 50 Hz (22 foot wavelength) the 5 foot difference would be only 1/4 wavelength. Hence the mic will pick up just 1/4 of a cycle from the first sub before seeing a contribution from the second sub. At 25 Hz it would be 1/8 of a cycle. At 100 Hz there would be 1/2 cycle before the contribution from the second sub arrives. Given how fast the chirp moves across the audio spectrum, the measurement system is very quick. It might be quick enough to measure distance before the second output arrives at the mic.

Has anybody found the closest sub to set the "sub distance" when there are two non-equidistant subs?

I could do this experiment. My subs weigh over 200 lbs but are movable. They are normally both 12' from the #1 mic position. If there's interest I'll put both on one sub channel and move one to 6' and see what that does. My subs have zero delay so are measured accurately to a tenth of an inch by Audyssey.

Interest?

Harrison

It's still time. The mic really only sees the level going up or down because of the contribution of later arriving waves. The impulse is emitted by Audyssey, and it patiently waits until the mic hears the impulse. If something other than the first arrival is used to define distance, IDK how it could work. In a large room, or if a person had raised his sub, the input of the second arriving sub will not look different to the mic from the later arriving floor bounce or wall bounce. Audyssey's mic doesn't know if what it hears comes forom 2 subs at different distances, or one sub with multiple pathways to the mic (direct, off the floor, off the back wall, off the ceiling, side wall to back wall to mic, etc). Which of these arrivals should define the delay time for distance setting?

The comparison between wave length and distance (time of delay) controls whether the multiple arrivals sum in phase, or slightly out of phase for a slighty smaller increase, or 180 degrees out of phase for complete cancellation. Doesn't change when the first arrival occurs or whether distance is determined at first arrival or at some later time defined we know not how . . .
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post #51909 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

IMO the FAQ is not for cutting-edge controversial tweaks

Oh most definitely. This discussion with Gooddoc is well outside the scope of the FAQ. Interesting though nonetheless.
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post #51910 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 09:36 AM
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Agreed to all. My comments were specifically limited to distance delay. Of course all other XT32 benefits apply
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post #51911 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

If I have XT, I'll try to find reasonably good spots that yield a fairly flat FR and are equidistant to MLP. With XT32 I'm not under the latter constraint.

Agreed aside from the fact that if I have XT, I'll try to find the absolute best positions of both subs that produce the best FR and least variation across seating positions and I could care less whether they're equidistant.

If no measuring gear then yes, I guess the guideline makes sense.
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post #51912 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 10:13 AM
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^Interesting point. YMMV, but I've found there are a number of spots that have similar flatness (or lack of it) and so I could reasonably balance room aesthetics/WAF into the "best" placement equation as well. With XT, I suggest the same balanced approach for equidistant spots, or lack thereof. If indeed all equidistant spots were awful but some non-equidistant ones were wonderful, I might then have to listen to compare them to see whether the timing being off was an issue. If it was, I'd have to chose the lesser evil until XT32 came to my HT.

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post #51913 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 10:35 AM
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The "Ask Audyssey" website contains the following information about the FLAT target curve, which notes that there are other good reasons to use the FLAT curve besides in a THX mode--very small or highly treated rooms, and nearfield listening situation:

"The Audyssey Flat setting (also called Music in some products) uses the MultEQ filters in the same way as the Audyssey curve, but it does not apply a high frequency roll-off. This setting is appropriate for very small or highly treated rooms in which the listener is seated quite close to the loudspeakers. It is also recommended for all rooms when the receiver is in THX processing mode. This allows THX re-equalization to operate exactly as it was intended."

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

The "Ask Audyssey" website contains the following information about the FLAT target curve, which notes that there are other good reasons to use the FLAT curve besides in a THX mode--very small or highly treated rooms, and nearfield listening situation:

"The Audyssey Flat setting (also called Music in some products) uses the MultEQ filters in the same way as the Audyssey curve, but it does not apply a high frequency roll-off. This setting is appropriate for very small or highly treated rooms in which the listener is seated quite close to the loudspeakers. It is also recommended for all rooms when the receiver is in THX processing mode. This allows THX re-equalization to operate exactly as it was intended."

Hi pbarach, while I fully agree with your above suggestion on adding Flat/Target issue to the FAQ I think a bit of explantion/reasoning would do wonders for the understanding of the principles behind. Not thinking of anything deeply scientific, just probably a bit above Layman's terms. I think like saying: "THX re-eq will operate as intended" is a bit vague even for a FAQ. Whaddaya think all?
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post #51915 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 11:03 AM
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Audyssey - How do you maintain the best balance between loudness fluctuations and sound quality?

Is it better to use lowest Dyn Vol setting (ie: Day) and watch movies around -15db, or or use the Dyn Vol on Evening and watch movies at 0.

Also - Is reference Level offset Literal?
ie: Should -10 be used if you watch movies at -10?
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post #51916 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Audyssey - How do you maintain the best balance between loudness fluctuations and sound quality?

Actually, loudness "fluctuation" is called "dynamic range" and in this respect has no direct impact on SQ (sound quality). Classical music typically has wide dynamic range, while titles of the group Metallica are not recorded to that degree owing to the nature of their genre. Film can be another example, there can be "fluctuations" from dialog whispering to explosions in the same film.

Quote:


Is it better to use lowest Dyn Vol setting (ie: Day) and watch movies around -15db, or or use the Dyn Vol on Evening and watch movies at 0.

IMHO, there is no good recipe, need to do a bit of experimenting by yourself to find what works best for you.

Quote:


Also - Is reference Level offset Literal?
ie: Should -10 be used if you watch movies at -10?

Ref. level offset is not supposed to be literal, what ever you mean by literal, eh? There is no such correlation between RLO an MV (Master Volume) setting. Film is recorded to a known Ref. level, therefore should be watched at RLO = 0. Some set RLO for film to -5 dB, so, again, your best option is to experiment and see what sounds best for you.

Hope I could help.
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post #51917 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 12:35 PM
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post #51918 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FAQ updated. Now with hyperlinks.

This is dealt with in the Audyssey FAQ Linked Here


I like it!!

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post #51919 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FAQ updated. Now with hyperlinks.

This is dealt with in the Audyssey FAQ Linked Here

Wow Keith, looks wonderful,...I think your next assignment will be an Onkyo 5509 FAQ!!!
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post #51920 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Audyssey - How do you maintain the best balance between loudness fluctuations and sound quality?

Do you mean fluctuations like when the commercials come on and the sound is much louder, or do you mean the balance between, for example, a whisper and an explosion in a movie?

If you turn on Dynamic Volume it will compress the dynamic range of the content, so the ratio between the loudest sounds and the softest sounds will be less. This is useful if you are watching Die Hard 4.0 and your children are asleep in bed. You can use more or less Dyn Vol according to your requirements - just experiment with the settings. There is no right or wrong setting.

It has nothing to do with where you set the master volume really, although obviously the higher the MV setting, the louder the system will play - but the dynamic range will still be compressed by Dyn Vol.
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post #51921 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Do you mean fluctuations like when the commercials come on and the sound is much louder, or do you mean the balance between, for example, a whisper and an explosion in a movie?

Thanks. I've found that when watching a movie and switching between Dyn Vol Day and Evening - Day sounds much more louder, crisp, and clear. Maybe I'm performing the wrong tests but I definitely can hear a degradation of sound quality by going with Evening. I'll try again at near reference level.

Quote:


It has nothing to do with where you set the master volume really, although obviously the higher the MV setting, the louder the system will play - but the dynamic range will still be compressed by Dyn Vol.

I thought the "boosts" of Dyn Vol were directly affected by the volume your listening at.

Quote:


Ref. level offset is not supposed to be literal, what ever you mean by literal, eh? There is no such correlation between RLO an MV (Master Volume) setting. Film is recorded to a known Ref. level, therefore should be watched at RLO = 0. Some set RLO for film to -5 dB, so, again, your best option is to experiment and see what sounds best for you.

0 being "reference level" on my receiver. So my question is, I'm listening at -15 should the RLO setting math (at -15?)
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post #51922 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Wow Keith, looks wonderful,...I think your next assignment will be an Onkyo 5509 FAQ!!!

Thanks Feri... I may just pass on that


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Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I like it!!

Thanks. It's very much a work in progress, but it will get there hopefully.
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post #51923 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 01:32 PM
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post #51924 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Thanks. I've found that when watching a movie and switching between Dyn Vol Day and Evening - Day sounds much more louder, crisp, and clear. Maybe I'm performing the wrong tests but I definitely can hear a degradation of sound quality by going with Evening. I'll try again at near reference level.



I thought the "boosts" of Dyn Vol were directly affected by the volume your listening at.



0 being "reference level" on my receiver. So my question is, I'm listening at -15 should the RLO setting math (at -15?)

I think the FAQ answers these questions - along with the links in the answers. This is dealt with in the Audyssey FAQ Linked Here
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post #51925 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 02:03 PM
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I've read it, although still unclear.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

I've read it, although still unclear.

If unclear, then send a question. Feel free.
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post #51927 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Thanks. I've found that when watching a movie and switching between Dyn Vol Day and Evening - Day sounds much more louder, crisp, and clear. Maybe I'm performing the wrong tests but I definitely can hear a degradation of sound quality by going with Evening. I'll try again at near reference level.

I thought the "boosts" of Dyn Vol were directly affected by the volume your listening at.

0 being "reference level" on my receiver. So my question is, I'm listening at -15 should the RLO setting math (at -15?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

I've read it, although still unclear.

OK. WRT to your 1st question above, there are no right and wrong settings for DV, so choose the one that you prefer. There isn't a degradation of the sound quality - as the FAQ explains, DV does not affect the tonal balance, and it can't change the SQ in any other way. I suspect you just prefer one setting over the other. This link takes you directly to the relevant part of the FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...count=51803#g1

Q2 - I don't know how to explain it more clearly than the FAQ. DV compresses dynamic range. The amount of compression depends on the setting you choose (Day, night etc). DV attempts to 'equalise' the soft and loud sounds to keep them in the range you have chosen when you set the MV. In that sense, the MV setting obviously affects the way DV's adjustment is made. I'm not sure what you want to know. Pick a MV that you are comfortable with and set DV to Day. If that smooths out the soft and loud sounds to your liking, you're done. If you want to smooth them out even more, set Night and DV will be more aggressive in the way it works.

Q3. Where you set RLO has nothing really to do with the MV setting - they are not directly linked in that sense. As the FAQ says, when you set a RLO of 10dB, then DEQ ceases to have any effect at -10dB on the MV, If you set RLO of 15dB then DEQ ceases to have any effect at -15dB on the MV.

If you usually listen at -15dB and you set a RLO of 15dB then you may as well have DEQ turned off because it is not doing anything. The RLO is designed to adjust DEQ for content not mixed to movie reference level. For movies leave it at 0dB. For other content, see the FAQ here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...count=51803#g3
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post #51928 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

If unclear, then send a question. Feel free.

It may be that the FAQ doesn't properly answer the question of course. Over time, user feedback like Lou99's will be incorporated into the FAQ. In this particular case, I personally can see the answers to his questions in the FAQ as it stands, but if he can't then it's the FAQ that is at fault, not Lou99!

Of course the FAQ isn’t intended to answer every query anyone could make, nor to answer in great depth, and as you rightly say, everyone is free to ask a question if they need further elaboration. I've had another go at Lou99's questions but I am still not quite sure what he is asking.

I like the way we can hyperlink directly to the relevant question number in the FAQ - cool eh?
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post #51929 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FAQ updated. Now with hyperlinks.

This is dealt with in the Audyssey FAQ Linked Here

Looks great! Excellent job Keith!


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post #51930 of 73140 Old 03-18-2012, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It may be that the FAQ doesn't properly answer the question of course. Over time, user feedback like Lou99's will be incorporated into the FAQ. In this particular case, I personally can see the answers to his questions in the FAQ as it stands, but if he can't then it's the FAQ that is at fault, not Lou99!

Of course the FAQ isn't intended to answer every query anyone could make, nor to answer in great depth, and as you rightly say, everyone is free to ask a question if they need further elaboration. I've had another go at Lou99's questions but I am still not quite sure what he is asking.

I like the way we can hyperlink directly to the relevant question number in the FAQ - cool eh?

Totally and completely agree Keith, while in another post today I tried something like suggesting the FAQ to be comprehensive enough to be somewhere between Layman's and a PhD level, well a bit closer to Layman's, nonetheless. I think a bit of reasoning will be more than appreciated by readers of the FAQ.
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