"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1735 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #52021 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 11:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JHAz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,954
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

OK thanks - for clarification, Denon AVRs don't have DSP modes then such as THX Cinema?

Whether they are THX certified or not, of course, they will still use Audyssey with the prime objective of Audyssey which is to set a system up so that at 0dB on the MV it is playing at THX Reference level. I can’t see how that is AVR-specific (assuming the AVR has Audyssey MultEQ).

Keith, amazing work so far.

Most of the Denon receivers will not Have THX re-EQ or other THX based DSP.

AFAIK, all the Denons denote the 2 Audyssey curves as "audyssey" and "Audyssey Flat."

IDK who invented reference, but reference is certainly the same thing on the non-THX Denons as on Onkyos. Denon, of course, does not refer to THX reference . . . nor, IIRC does Audyssey itself. THey just call it "reference level."

FWIW, I think it's potentially confusing to call 85 dB "average." 85 dB is how loud each speaker should be when playing back bandwidth limited pink noise at -20DbFS. I've never seen FilmMixer or anybody else in the business suggest that reference levels tell them anything about how loud "average" ought to be. They do of course place an upper limit on SPL per speaker. A person could pop in V for Vendetta (dialog averages below 80 dB at reference) and think they're improperly calibrated if they're looking fo the SPL meter to show 85 dB at some particular point in the movie.

It might (or might not) be worth mentioning that ARs made before the advent of DynamicEQ (at least, as I understand it, in the Denon line) attempt to make zero on the MV equal to reference, because reference level was not important to any of the pre-DEQ Audyssey technologies. Might say something like "Note: the Audyssey calibration process on older receivers without DynamicEQ may not result in setting the speaker outputs to equal reference levels at master vloume setting = 0."
JHAz is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #52022 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 11:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Here's another interesting thread on: "Why most of Denon's are not THX certified"

Tip: look for post by batpig and Goatse!!

Cheers, Feri


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mogorf is offline  
post #52023 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 11:52 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,203
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1601 Post(s)
Liked: 1823
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Keith, amazing work so far.

Thanks JHAz - appreciate your remarks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Most of the Denon receivers will not Have THX re-EQ or other THX based DSP.

So I now realise. Just checked the Denon site too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

AFAIK, all the Denons denote the 2 Audyssey curves as "audyssey" and "Audyssey Flat."

OK - that is the same as Audyssey's Movie and Music then so I can easily explain what they do in the FAQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

IDK who invented reference, but reference is certainly the same thing on the non-THX Denons as on Onkyos. Denon, of course, does not refer to THX reference . . . nor, IIRC does Audyssey itself. THey just call it "reference level."

I've decided to just call it 'Reference Level' to avoid any possible confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

FWIW, I think it's potentially confusing to call 85 dB "average." 85 dB is how loud each speaker should be when playing back bandwidth limited pink noise at -20DbFS. I've never seen FilmMixer or anybody else in the business suggest that reference levels tell them anything about how loud "average" ought to be. They do of course place an upper limit on SPL per speaker. A person could pop in V for Vendetta (dialog averages below 80 dB at reference) and think they're improperly calibrated if they're looking fo the SPL meter to show 85 dB at some particular point in the movie.

Yes, thanks. It needs to be clear that is is with bandwidth-limited pink noise that is being referenced there. Or Audyssey's -30dBFS when using their 75dB chirps. I'll sort it out when I get round to writing the FAQ and answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

It might (or might not) be worth mentioning that ARs made before the advent of DynamicEQ (at least, as I understand it, in the Denon line) attempt to make zero on the MV equal to reference, because reference level was not important to any of the pre-DEQ Audyssey technologies. Might say something like "Note: the Audyssey calibration process on older receivers without DynamicEQ may not result in setting the speaker outputs to equal reference levels at master vloume setting = 0."

Yes, good point, which hadn't occurred to me. Thanks for the input.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #52024 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 11:54 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,203
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1601 Post(s)
Liked: 1823
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Here's another interesting thread on: "Why most of Denon's are not THX certified"

Tip: look for post by batpig and Goatse!!

Thanks, Feri. I think I will try to give unit-specific issues a wide berth - the last thing I want to have to do is learn all about Denons! Will have a look at the link though.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #52025 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 11:56 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 24,488
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 735 Post(s)
Liked: 1325
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

OK thanks - for clarification, Denon AVRs don't have DSP modes then such as THX Cinema? EDIT: I just checked - a couple do but I am surprised to discover that most don't, including my 'favourite', the 4311.

the only THX certified Denons with Audyssey are the flagship products as JD noted above. All that stuff we talk about with THX RE-EQ are really Onkyo specific issues and how they implemented it.

Quote:


I spotted something called 'Cinema EQ' in the specs which I take to be Denon's own version of RE-Eq or something like it.

basically, yeah, it's a legacy tech which they have had for a loooong time to deal with "harsh" soundtracks translated into the home environment. Really an outdated anachronism at this point. Denon is sometimes slow to remove these types of vestigial options, leading to ever more user confusion....

Quote:


Do Denons have user-selectable Audyssey Reference or Flat curves, like the latest Onkyo's Audyssey Movie/Music curves?

Yes, Denons w/ MultEQ have always implemented the Audyssey / Audyssey Flat / Audyssey Bypass L/R selections.

Quote:


If they have a user-selectable Reference curve then that already has the HF rollof, so without any THX modes, I can't quite see the purpose of Cinema EQ.

Join the club It's just there because... it is.... I suppose there are people who don't use Audyssey who want some method of high-freq roll-off. But anyway, Cinema EQ on Denons really doesn't have anything to do with Audyssey MultEQ.


Quote:


Maybe it's best to delete the reference to THX and call it just 'Reference Level' - that way nobody with a Denon can be confused into thinking it doesn't apply to them.

yes, that's how I would do it.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
batpig is offline  
post #52026 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 12:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 7,412
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 655 Post(s)
Liked: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Hi AJ - I am being slow today - which topics are Onkyo-specific?

Removed--already discussed in sufficient detail.

__________________________________________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
AustinJerry is online now  
post #52027 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 12:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,676
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post


Denon released a hardware/firmware upgrade for the 5308. That is all that changed. in my setup, so XT to XT32 here.

As I said earlier, there have been numerous firmware issues during initial rollouts. Given the general experience that XT32 is typically superior to XT leads me to suspect a firmware issue could be at fault here. After all, you have XT and XT32 graphs to compare and its not looking too good for XT32. I'm fairly confident Audyssey technical support would love to see those graphs.
Gooddoc is online now  
post #52028 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 12:33 PM
Senior Member
 
hclarkx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Near Sacramento
Posts: 240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Except it kind of sucks with XT32 from what I'm seeing.


The first graph here is raw response of a sealed system compared to Audyssey XT32, the second graph is the same system after being EQ'd MiniDSP, then running XT32. I had better results with standard XT, displayed in the third graph. Fortunately, I have a MiniDSP which I used to EQ my subs flat before running audyssey which presented me with some better results, shown in the second graph. Audyssey really had to stretch for this one


Yellow is after Audyssey XT32, green is raw response without Audyssey.


Blue is MiniDSP only, red is MiniDSP then Audyssey XT32


This is an older graph from before I upgraded my receiver with Denon to support XT32. Yellow is raw, green is after running Audyssey XT

I think your results are not difficult to explain. In the first graph you do not see Audyssey raising the sub level at the low end because Audyssey does not EQ to flat below the -3 db point. Your -3 db point is fairly obvious in this graph. Keep in mind that Audyssey is used by thousands of users and has to be safe from a liability standpoint. Forcing higher output below the - 3db point could destroy a subwoofer driver that does not have the Xmax to achieve flat below that.

In the second graph there was not much for XT32 to do, so it didn't do much.

In the third graph, the results are as expected. It seems no -3 db point was found. The rise at the low end remains because I think XT's does not correct that low.

Though the -3 db point is fairly obvious in your first graph, the reference for the -3db point is determined through a fairly complex look at the sub output over its operating range. Hence in most cases it is very difficult to eyeball the - 3db point as identified by Audyssey.

I've found that shifting the mic locations within the listening bubble can significantly affect where the - 3db point is identified. I've had my system (two 15" drivers per side) left with a -3 db point of 28 Hz and then be flat to 20 Hz by just moving the mics a bit or doing less locations (with XT32).

Another consideration is that Audyssey is trying to provide the best listening experience across the listening bubble. Hence the result at any one position is not a good indication of what Audyssey is doing. Additionally, if you mic, say, 10 locations in the listening bubble you must test exactly those same ten locations and integrate the results to assess exactly what Audyssey is doing. This alone explains most complaints about Audyssey not achieving flat response. A truly flat response at multiple listening (or mic'd) locations is not physically possible in a credible theater, home or otherwise.

Tell us, how big is your listening bubble relative to the room size, how many mic locations did you use for the Audyssey setup, and how was your own testing done (number of positions, location relative to Audyssey mic locations, etc.)?

And, of course, your results are far from problematic with or without Audyssey. Your subs are equidistant and it appears you have an excellent room and probably some good room treatments. You haven't left much for Audyssey to help with. Any help Audyssey provides is icing on the cake and is probably limited to spreading any remaining ill effects across the listening bubble so there is no bad seat (though no perfect seat either).

Harrison

Harrison

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hclarkx is offline  
post #52029 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 12:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

As I said earlier, there have been numerous firmware issues during initial rollouts. Given the general experience that XT32 is typically superior to XT leads me to suspect a firmware issue could be at fault here. After all, you have XT and XT32 graphs to compare and its not looking too good for XT32. I'm fairly confident Audyssey technical support would love to see those graphs.

+1. Especially with regards to differences in resolution between the two flavors of Audyssey. XT (for sub) = 128x, XT32 (sub+sats) = 512x. While I'm sure you are aware of the fact that XT32 EQs multiple subs in a different way than XT (read=better).

I would surely contact Audyssey support or maybe Chris Kyriakakis on Facebook Audyssey Tech Talk . With such an aweseome HT room you really deserve a product that works excellently to the brim.

Chime back please, I think we all can learn something new from your case. maybe a good lesson for the Audyssey FAQ currently under construction here.

Take care!

Cheers, Feri


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mogorf is offline  
post #52030 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 12:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
djbluemax1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 2,261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

As I said earlier, there have been numerous firmware issues during initial rollouts. Given the general experience that XT32 is typically superior to XT leads me to suspect a firmware issue could be at fault here. After all, you have XT and XT32 graphs to compare and its not looking too good for XT32. I'm fairly confident Audyssey technical support would love to see those graphs.

Makes me very curious, being that the update is fairly recent, and intended for one of the most expensive non-boutique avr's, I wonder if Audyssey might have slightly redesigned XT32 for it, to specifically limit the normalization so it doesn't occur below the measured F3?

This is something that's been brought to Chris's attention and he's mentioned that it's an idea they've contemplated implementing. The normalization after EQ can potentially lead to subs being overdriven as pre-out graphs have shown up to a 9db boost below F3.

Looking at notnyt's graph, it appears that is where the measured F3 for his subs are.

Hmmm...


Max

P.S. I see Harrison had similar observations and touched on this too while I was typing my reply
djbluemax1 is offline  
post #52031 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 12:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,344
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

I think your results are not difficult to explain. In the first graph you do not see Audyssey raising the sub level at the low end because Audyssey does not EQ to flat below the -3 db point. Your -3 db point is fairly obvious in this graph. Keep in mind that Audyssey is used by thousands of users and has to be safe from a liability standpoint. Forcing higher output below the - 3db point could destroy a subwoofer driver that does not have the Xmax to achieve flat below that.

In the second graph there was not much for XT to do, so it didn't do much.

In the third graph, the results are as expected. It seems no -3 db point was found. The rise at the low end remains because I think XT's does not correct that low.

Though the -3 db point is fairly obvious in your first graph, the reference for the -3db point is determined through a fairly complex look at the sub output over its operating range. Hence in most cases it is very difficult to eyeball the - 3db point as identified by Audyssey.

I've found that shifting the mic locations within the listening bubble can significantly affect where the - 3db point is identified. I've had my system (two 15" drivers per side) left with a -3 db point of 28 Hz and then be flat to 20 Hz by just moving the mics a bit or doing less locations (with XT32).

Another consideration is that Audyssey is trying to provide the best listening experience across the listening bubble. Hence the result at any one position is not a good indication of what Audyssey is doing. Additionally, if you mic, say, 10 locations in the listening bubble you must test exactly those same ten locations and integrate the results to assess exactly what Audyssey is doing. This along explains most complaints about Audyssey not achieving flat response. A truly flat response at multiple listening (or mic'd) locations is not physically possible in a credible theater, home or otherwise.

Tell us, how big is your listening bubble relative to the room size, how many mic locations did you use for the Audyssey setup, and how was your own testing done (number of positions, location relative to Audyssey mic locations, etc.)?

And, of course, your results are far from problematic with or without Audyssey. Your subs are equidistant and it appears you have an excellent room and probably some good room treatments. You haven't left much for Audyssey to help with. Any help Audyssey provides is icing on the cake and is probably limited to spreading any remaining ill effects across the listening bubble so there is no bad seat (though no perfect seat either).

Harrison

The first and third graphs start with identical response, so that pretty much shoots a hole in that theory. Nothing changed between those graphs except XT -> XT32. I tested it with XT32 using one location and multiples. Many runs of each. I've run Audyssey many many times so I'm familiar with the quirks. My -3db point is actually 7.5hz, and what I was expecting to see was more bass cut above 35hz to deal with the rising response typical of sealed enclosures, which it did not do. I'll check for any new firmware updates as well, but I don't think there are any. I'm pretty happy with things as they are. MiniDSP to the rescue.

Anyway, you can see where the subs actually roll off, due to an electronic HPF.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
notnyt is online now  
post #52032 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 12:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

The first and third graphs start with identical response, so that pretty much shoots a hole in that theory. Nothing changed between those graphs except XT -> XT32. I tested it with XT32 using one location and multiples. Many runs of each. I've run Audyssey many many times so I'm familiar with the quirks. My -3db point is actually 7.5hz, and what I was expecting to see was more bass cut above 35hz to deal with the rising response typical of sealed enclosures, which it did not do. I'll check for any new firmware updates as well, but I don't think there are any. I'm pretty happy with things as they are. MiniDSP to the rescue.

Anyway, you can see where the subs actually roll off, due to an electronic HPF.

Hi notnyt, I have to confess this is the first time for me to hear about MiniDSP, and sorry for the unsolicited question, but are you really sure you need that device in the food chain when you have Audyssey XT or even XT32 on board?

Cheers, Feri


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mogorf is offline  
post #52033 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 01:02 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,203
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1601 Post(s)
Liked: 1823
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

the only THX certified Denons with Audyssey are the flagship products as JD noted above. All that stuff we talk about with THX RE-EQ are really Onkyo specific issues and how they implemented it.

Thanks batpig. I've done a little research since the earlier posts and am with it now I think. I’ll exercise caution with the FAQ post on this one

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

basically, yeah, it's a legacy tech which they have had for a loooong time to deal with "harsh" soundtracks translated into the home environment. Really an outdated anachronism at this point. Denon is sometimes slow to remove these types of vestigial options, leading to ever more user confusion....

Yep - I see now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post


Yes, Denons w/ MultEQ have always implemented the Audyssey / Audyssey Flat / Audyssey Bypass L/R selections.

OK thanks - I can cover the differences and purposes of the curves then so long as I mention the alternate names they may go by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Join the club It's just there because... it is.... I suppose there are people who don't use Audyssey who want some method of high-freq roll-off. But anyway, Cinema EQ on Denons really doesn't have anything to do with Audyssey MultEQ.

Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post


yes, that's how I would do it.

Yep - avoids any possible confusion. Thanks for the reply. I am so ingrained into the Onkyo way of doing things that it's easy to forget that not all AVRs are the same. I will bear it in mind though of course.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #52034 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 01:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,344
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi notnyt, I have to confess this is the first time for me to hear about MiniDSP, and sorry for the unsolicited question, but are you really sure you need that device in the food chain when you have Audyssey XT or even XT32 on board?

Yes, it is in line with my subs. Audyssey XT32 alone failed miserably at EQing my subs flat. XT worked much better.

Again, this is before and after XT32



This is before and after XT


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
notnyt is online now  
post #52035 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 01:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Yes, it is in line with my subs. Audyssey XT32 alone failed miserably at EQing my subs flat. XT worked much better.

Again, this is before and after XT32



This is before and after XT

Yes, I've seen these graphs. Arrgh! Nonetheless, while trying to catch up with you, do you mean your system is hooked up like this:

AVR sub line out --> MiniDSP line out --> sub power amp power out --> sub

If I saw correctly on your pictures your subs are not powered subs but you have separate amps with line in level from the AVR and that's where in between you insert the MiniDSP. Do you have 1 MiniDSP for each sub amp?

Cheers, Feri


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mogorf is offline  
post #52036 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 01:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Toknowshita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Does the Denon version of XT32 have you set the sub gain so it measures 75dB prior to running the speaker pings? IOW have you changed the gain setting on your sub between XT vs XT32?

Toknowshita is offline  
post #52037 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 01:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
pbarach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 2,538
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It sure would. But I don't think I know enough about it to do it myself. Could you (or anyone) give me the gist of it? Thanks.

I don't really understand it, but I googled and found a massive thread about dialogue normalization:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=121087

This is a Dolby metadata instruction to the processor that can't be turned off or modified--I did find that out. It seems to be a way of adjusting the overall master volume level for a particular BluRay disc to bring the dialog to a standard listening level, but it's not a dynamic adjustment that changes as the disc plays. It's a one-time setting as the disc starts. It shows up on the dial of some Denon receivers when the player is bitstreaming the audio to the receiver.

It would appear that this generally introduces an offset to reference level so that "reference level" at 0 dB for home listening will be different than 0 dB in the theater. If this is true, then nobody is actually listening at the same reference level in the home with which movies are mastered...

AT&T U-Verse Northeast Ohio

Denon x4000, Samsung LED TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, etc.
pbarach is offline  
post #52038 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 01:55 PM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,048
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Yes, it is in line with my subs. Audyssey XT32 alone failed miserably at EQing my subs flat. XT worked much better.

Then there is something wrong.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is online now  
post #52039 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 01:57 PM
The Truth Hz
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 7,496
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked: 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Yes, I've seen these graphs. Arrgh! Nonetheless, while trying to catch up with you, do you mean your system is hooked up like this:

AVR sub line out --> MiniDSP line out --> sub power amp power out --> sub

If I saw correctly on your pictures your subs are not powered subs but you have separate amps with line in level from the AVR and that's where in between you insert the MiniDSP. Do you have 1 MiniDSP for each sub amp?

you got the signal chain these are certainly not plate amps built into the sub cabinets

There are several different types of MiniDSP that you can choose from. I believe Not' has the 2x8 where it can take 2 rca's in, and individually control the 8 rca's out after you EQ the signal.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

beastaudio is offline  
post #52040 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 02:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,203
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1601 Post(s)
Liked: 1823
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

I don't really understand it, but I googled and found a massive thread about dialogue normalization:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=121087

This is a Dolby metadata instruction to the processor that can't be turned off or modified--I did find that out. It seems to be a way of adjusting the overall master volume level for a particular BluRay disc to bring the dialog to a standard listening level, but it's not a dynamic adjustment that changes as the disc plays. It's a one-time setting as the disc starts. It shows up on the dial of some Denon receivers when the player is bitstreaming the audio to the receiver.

It would appear that this generally introduces an offset to reference level so that "reference level" at 0 dB for home listening will be different than 0 dB in the theater. If this is true, then nobody is actually listening at the same reference level in the home with which movies are mastered...

I think we need Roger D to chime in and explain it in simple terms - he's explained dialnorm before and I think I understand what it is and roughly how it works, but not sure what the implications are for DEQ and reference level, if any. I'll take a look at that thread later - the fact you say it's massive tends to make me think it's going to be complicated Thanks for the link.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #52041 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 02:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
pbarach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 2,538
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 93
^^^
"Massive" it's not, when compared to THIS thread. 17 pages.

AT&T U-Verse Northeast Ohio

Denon x4000, Samsung LED TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, etc.
pbarach is offline  
post #52042 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 02:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,203
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1601 Post(s)
Liked: 1823
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

^^^
"Massive" it's not, when compared to THIS thread. 17 pages.

I just had a look. That 'Big Daddy' dude over there usually has very good contributions. bluray.com is one of my most-used sites.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #52043 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 02:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I just had a look. That 'Big Daddy' dude over there usually has very good contributions. bluray.com is one of my most-used sites.


Bluray.com also has their dudes like our batpig's and jd's, eh?

Cheers, Feri


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mogorf is offline  
post #52044 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 02:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

you got the signal chain these are certainly not plate amps built into the sub cabinets

There are several different types of MiniDSP that you can choose from. I believe Not' has the 2x8 where it can take 2 rca's in, and individually control the 8 rca's out after you EQ the signal.

Interesting! If Not' has the 2x8 MiniDSP kit I suppose he has a signal flow like this:

AVR (Audyssey) on a digital platform --> AVR D/A converter for analog sub out --> MiniDSP RCA IN followed by A/D --> MiniDSP processing on a digital platform --> D/A converter in MiniDSP --> analog line out to each sub power amp...

I wouldn't volunteer to predict what such multiple D/A and A/D convertions with dual DSP'ing can cause, but as Not's results show it seems while XT has no conflict, XT 32 does suffer from such hook-up.

Fingers crossed for Not!

Cheers, Feri


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mogorf is offline  
post #52045 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 02:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,344
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Interesting! If Not' has the 2x8 MiniDSP kit I suppose he has a signal flow like this:

AVR (Audyssey) on a digital platform --> AVR D/A converter for analog sub out --> MiniDSP RCA IN followed by A/D --> MiniDSP processing on a digital platform --> D/A converter in MiniDSP --> analog line out to each sub power amp...

I wouldn't volunteer to predict what such multiple D/A and A/D convertions with dual DSP'ing can cause, but as Not's results show it seems while XT has no conflict, XT 32 does suffer from such hook-up.

Fingers crossed for Not!

It has nothing to do with the MiniDSP. Even with the device out of the loop the issue is still present. It is most likely just Denon's implementation.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
notnyt is online now  
post #52046 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 02:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 4,344
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

Does the Denon version of XT32 have you set the sub gain so it measures 75dB prior to running the speaker pings? IOW have you changed the gain setting on your sub between XT vs XT32?

Yes, I had to lower the gain on my amps to get it to the 75db level. I didn't try running Audyssey with it 10db hotter as it was previously. Previous runs calibrated my subs to -11.5 or so, now it calibrated it to -1.5.

As an aside, after I finished my final EQing, I dropped my sub levels by 10db in the receiver and raised them by 10db on the amp. Everything measured the same, but now I have +24db of gain available from the receiver instead of just 12 when raising my sub levels =]


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
notnyt is online now  
post #52047 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 03:19 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 24,488
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 735 Post(s)
Liked: 1325
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

I don't really understand it, but I googled and found a massive thread about dialogue normalization:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=121087

This is a Dolby metadata instruction to the processor that can't be turned off or modified--I did find that out. It seems to be a way of adjusting the overall master volume level for a particular BluRay disc to bring the dialog to a standard listening level, but it's not a dynamic adjustment that changes as the disc plays. It's a one-time setting as the disc starts. It shows up on the dial of some Denon receivers when the player is bitstreaming the audio to the receiver.

It would appear that this generally introduces an offset to reference level so that "reference level" at 0 dB for home listening will be different than 0 dB in the theater. If this is true, then nobody is actually listening at the same reference level in the home with which movies are mastered...

I find this article pretty good in explaining the concept:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...on-6-2000.html

here's a whitepaper from Dolby: http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreview/trev_293-spath.pdf

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
batpig is offline  
post #52048 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 03:29 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,203
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1601 Post(s)
Liked: 1823
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I find this article pretty good in explaining the concept:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...on-6-2000.html

Now that is clear! Great article.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #52049 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 03:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Yes, I had to lower the gain on my amps to get it to the 75db level. I didn't try running Audyssey with it 10db hotter as it was previously. Previous runs calibrated my subs to -11.5 or so, now it calibrated it to -1.5.

As an aside, after I finished my final EQing, I dropped my sub levels by 10db in the receiver and raised them by 10db on the amp. Everything measured the same, but now I have +24db of gain available from the receiver instead of just 12 when raising my sub levels =]

Just curious notnyt, what are you planning to do with that available +24 dB reserve in the bass department? Blow the neighbourhood? Your 5.8 system with 8 sub-drivers CAN DO!

I get it, you like your bass a teeny-weeny hot, huh? Just kidding!

Kidding apart, how is your Denon 5308 set up for sub? Here are the options from the Manual:






Cheers, Feri


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mogorf is offline  
post #52050 of 72411 Old 03-20-2012, 03:55 PM
Advanced Member
 
ReneV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 539
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Dialog normalization is different from MultEQ's normalization problem. The latter is triggered by room modes and similar narrow frequency-range response humps in the first measurement position. A hump contributes to the SPL that Audyssey sets the channel offsets according to. In the case of a hump, the targeted SPL is above that produced naturally at most frequencies, including at all frequencies below the -3dB point, and Audyssey boosts the signal accordingly. This boost is independent from equalization proper and can go all the way to 0Hz. This can suck up enormous amounts of amplification and excursion for little audible benefit.
ReneV is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Audyssey , Receivers Amplifiers , Kef Kht1005 2se 5 1 Subwoofer Satellite System With C4 Subwoofer Gloss White , 5 6 7 1 7 2 Or 8 1 8 2 One Or Two Subwoofer Compatible 16 Banana Post 2 Rca Speaker Wall Plate For H
Gear in this thread - Kht1005 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off