"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1777 - AVS Forum
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post #53281 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post

Is this a known issues in larger rooms? With opening to the dining area, I would say that the room is about 2700 cubic feet..

From the Audyssey pro kit user guide:

Choose a Target Curve to be used in computing the MultEQ XT Filters
a. Flat - A Flat target curve should be used only in very small rooms, where the listener is situated very close to the speakers. It is also appropriate in a THX system where re-equalization is applied
b. High Frequency Roll-off 1 (Default) - This curve introduces a slight roll-off at high frequencies that accounts for the balance between direct and reflected sound for small to medium size rooms (room volume less than 2500 cu. ft.)
c. High Frequency Roll-off 2 - This curve introduces a slightly greater roll-off at high frequencies that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound for medium to large size rooms (room volume between 2500 and 5000 cu. ft.)
d. SMPTE 202M - An international standard target curve is used for the high frequency roll-off applied in a typical 500-seat movie theater. It is appropriate for professional mixing spaces and dubbing stages that must be calibrated for film sound postproduction. It can also be used in extremely large playback spaces (room volume greater than 5000 cu. ft.)

Target Curves Explained: An audio system that reproduces sound with no coloration from 20 Hz to 20 kHz will not always produce the correct sound when combined with the acoustic response of a room. The main reason for this is that loudspeakers are much more directional at high frequencies than they are at low frequencies. This change in directivity causes the balance of direct sound and reflected (reverberant) sound to vary between the high and low ends of the frequency spectrum. The human ear perceives this imbalance as a brightening or emphasis of the high frequencies. A target curve compensates for this psychoacoustic effect by moderating the high frequency content.


Flat & High Frequency Roll-off 1 are the target curves baked into AVRs. You are right at the threshold where curve 2 (only available via the pro kit) may provider greater HF optimization for your room. However, the difference between curve 1 & curve 2 is fairly slight in terms of additional treble rolloff. If you google "audyssey pro kit setup" you should be able to download a pdf of the setup guide where you can review these various target curves.

In my ~5000 cubic foot room, the default curve was unlistenable (too much HF), while curve 3 was too dull. I'm using curve 2 plus some additional rolloff manually dialed in to the curve editor (-0.25db @ 5kHz, -0.75db @ 10kHz, -1.5db @ 24kHz). The room size effect is real, because in my <2,500 cubic foot room, the default curve sounds wonderful. It's just the larger room that needs special consideration.

As a last resort, after following all of the setup guides, FAQs, etc., one trick you can try is to tilt the microphone about 45 degrees towards the center channel, which will fool Audyssey into thinking your speakers have more HF energy than they do, causing less boost there. Surrounds will be boosted more, however. I do not recommend this other than for experimentation purposes, so you can hear how a properly-balanced Audyssey sounds (for stereo only, of course). If you like it, that may be enough to inspire you to the ultimate solution, which is to upgrade to the pro kit if your AVR supports it.

The tilt trick is frowned upon here, but it was the only way I could make my system even somewhat listenable until I upgraded to the pro kit. Otherwise, I would have moved on to another room correction system. Glad I didn't, as Audyssey in a small room or Audyssey pro in a large room is fabulous! Good luck!
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post #53282 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 11:48 AM
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My room is 23 x 16 x vaulted ceiling 8-11, (3,300) opening into another large room. All hardware including speakers were purchased Dec 2011, and is in perfect condition. I like the final sound as long as either THX Cinema is engaged, or Re-Eq is on. Audyssey Movie and Music modes sound no different to me, after any of my many, many calibrations. Both are bright.

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post #53283 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

As a last resort, after following all of the setup guides, FAQs, etc., one trick you can try is to tilt the microphone about 45 degrees towards the center channel, which will fool Audyssey into thinking your speakers have more HF energy than they do, causing less boost there. Surrounds will be boosted more, however. I do not recommend this other than for experimentation purposes, so you can hear how a properly-balanced Audyssey sounds (for stereo only, of course). If you like it, that may be enough to inspire you to the ultimate solution, which is to upgrade to the pro kit if your AVR supports it.

The tilt trick is frowned upon here, but it was the only way I could make my system even somewhat listenable until I upgraded to the pro kit. Otherwise, I would have moved on to another room correction system. Glad I didn't, as Audyssey in a small room or Audyssey pro in a large room is fabulous! Good luck!

Hi tandy, yes the trick is frowned upon here, because that is plain wrong advice. The calibration file for the Audyssey mic bundled with the avr/pre-pro is factory measured with the mic facing the ceiling. Full stop. Deviating from that position is to be regarded as "unintended use". Even though for you it may have resulted in better SQ, that will surely be either placebo or placebo. You may choose your option. Please don't spread out such news others less experienced may catch up with. My humble advise would be to look into the system set up for a bit of trouleshooting till the final result is achived "as intended". Agree?
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post #53284 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 12:23 PM
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Looking for some help here. Currently I am using 2EQ in my Integra DRT 5.9. I am looking to possibly step up to a new AVR. I found a Onkyo 709 at A4L for about 450 that has Multi EQ XT. I know there is also the XT32 version that is the newest and latest out.

Here is my setup:

TV: 55" Panasonic ST30
AVR: ??
Amp: Carver Av-705x (5 x 125 @ 8 ohm, 4 ohm rating unknown)
Fronts: Polk LSi 15's
Center: Polk LSiC
Surrounds: Polk LSi F/X
Sub: Polk PSW125

Here is my question: How much of a difference is going from XT to XT32? Is that difference worth about 500 bucks (cost difference between models with XT and XT32)?

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post #53285 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 12:43 PM
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xt32 is definately worth the upgrade IMHO.
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post #53286 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

Looking for some help here. Currently I am using 2EQ in my Integra DRT 5.9. I am looking to possibly step up to a new AVR. I found a Onkyo 709 at A4L for about 450 that has Multi EQ XT. I know there is also the XT32 version that is the newest and latest out.

Here is my setup:

TV: 55" Panasonic ST30
AVR: ??
Amp: Carver Av-705x (5 x 125 @ 8 ohm, 4 ohm rating unknown)
Fronts: Polk LSi 15's
Center: Polk LSiC
Surrounds: Polk LSi F/X
Sub: Polk PSW125

Here is my question: How much of a difference is going from XT to XT32? Is that difference worth about 500 bucks (cost difference between models with XT and XT32)?

If you are coming from 2EQ which doesn't EQ the sub channel, IHMO both versions of MultEQ will be jaw dropping for you when it comes to SQ'ing the sub channel. Should you not be on a limited budget then go for XT32 by all means.
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post #53287 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 12:55 PM
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Onkyo's 818 might be a fit for you.
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post #53288 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

If you are coming from 2EQ which doesn't EQ the sub channel, IHMO both versions of MultEQ will be jaw dropping for you when it comes to SQ'ing the sub channel. Should you not be on a limited budget then go for XT32 by all means.

Yeah, I really want XT32, but considering its a 1k jump right now to find a AVR with XT32 over XT (i.e. 709 v. 3009) at this exact moment (818 isnt out yet) I am thinking I will just wait to get XT 32 till later.....

Heck it would probably be better to upgrade my sub rather than spend the extra cash on XT32 (EQ can only help what the speakers can produce).....

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post #53289 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi tandy, yes the trick is frowned upon here, because that is plain wrong advice. The calibration file for the Audyssey mic bundled with the avr/pre-pro is factory measured with the mic facing the ceiling. Full stop. Deviating from that position is to be regarded as "unintended use". Even though for you it may have resulted in better SQ, that will surely be either placebo or placebo. You may choose your option. Please don't spread out such news others less exeprienced may catch up with. My humble advise would be to look into the system set up for a bit of trouleshooting till the final result is achives "as intended". Agree?

Reducing HF boost by 5db is not placebo, especially when folks are complaining of 8db HF boosts after following the setup guides and FAQs to the letter. Novices can do thousands of calibrations to the letter, but if their rooms are large, they will never get to "as intended" because they are using a target curve designed for smaller rooms which by definition allow for more treble energy.

I agree tilting the mic is "unintended use," but so is using the default Audyssey target curve in a large room. Per my post above, quoted straight from the Audyssey Pro Kit user manual, Audyssey intends for a target curve with additional HF rolloff to be used in those large-room situations. Their instructions, not mine. Any disagreement you have on this point is disagreement with Chris and the Audyssey engineers, not me. As I'm sure you can appreciate, I follow their instructions/recommendations regarding room size and they work (imagine that)! And no, 3000+ cubic feet is far from church size. In fact, that's fairly common for an American multipurpose room with vaulted ceilings open to an additional room such as a kitchen, dining room, etc.

For folks in large rooms who cannot upgrade to Pro and are forced to use the incorrect target curve, how else do you recommend they attenuate their treble, even just temporarily, so they can at least evaluate Audyssey technology without fatigue-inducing brightness that is impossible to hear beyond?

Or do you still believe room size doesn't matter, that Audyssey itself is wrong on this point, and that all unexplainable HF boost is due to broken speakers?

We've had this discussion before, and my words nor Audyssey's own text is enough to convince you that room size matters. That is fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, and move on, ok? I will continue to share this phenomenon with newbies, and you can continue to call it placebo and nonsense. That's what makes these forums so valuable...many alternative points of view. All is good! ;-)
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post #53290 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 01:12 PM
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Use a few measurement points at different heights with a correctly oriented mic and see how that does.
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post #53291 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

In my ~5000 cubic foot room, the default curve was unlistenable (too much HF), while curve 3 was too dull. I'm using curve 2 plus some additional rolloff manually dialed in to the curve editor (-0.25db @ 5kHz, -0.75db @ 10kHz, -1.5db @ 24kHz).

Tandy, do you really mean a -1.5 dB at 24 kHz makes a difference for you? Just curious. Curious like a bat.
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post #53292 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 02:17 PM
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Thanks Tandy for taking time and explaining this. I'll try a couple of measurements with different Mic positions.

Speakers: Pioneer/TAD S-1EX, S-7EX, Ascend with RAAL upgrade
Pre/Pro: Onkyo PR-SC5508,Bel Canto Pre-6, Sherwood 972
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post #53293 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post

Thanks Tandy for taking time and explaining this. I'll try a couple of measurements with different Mic positions.

Sam, what exactly do you mean by "different mic positions"?
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post #53294 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Sam, what exactly do you mean by "different mic positions"?

1. Little lover than ear level
2. Angled at 45%

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post

1. Little lover than ear level
2. Angled at 45%

Your not listening, Man!

1. Ear level is a must for best performance. Or do you listen with your knees?

2. Angled? Why? Audyssey mic has the calibration file in the avr measured with mic pointed to the ceiling. Do you want to throw your calibration off with improper mic palcement? Or do you want your system calibrated as per the guide?
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post #53296 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


Your not listening, Man!

1. Ear level is a must for best performance. Or do you listen with your knees?

2. Angled? Why? Audyssey mic has the calibration file in the avr measured with mic pointed to the ceiling. Do you want to throw your calibration off with improper mic palcement? Or do you want your system calibrated as per the guide?

Ribbons or electrostatics are best handled with some variation of the mic height. Jon Fo has a nice how to in a sticky on the Martin Logan forum.
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post #53297 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Your not listening, Man!

1. Ear level is a must for best performance. Or do you listen with your knees?

2. Angled? Why? Audyssey mic has the calibration file in the avr measured with mic pointed to the ceiling. Do you want to throw your calibration off with improper mic palcement? Or do you want your system calibrated as per the guide?

Are you listening to me? I said that with documented process, the treble it too hot(Measured +8db, although I don;t trust RS mic that much, I do trust my ears). I do not want to listen to music with my ears bleeding. If diff. mic positions is going to skewer the sound, then I need to look for some other alternatives than Audyssey.

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post #53298 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Tandy, do you really mean a -1.5 dB at 24 kHz makes a diference for you? Just curious.

No, as you well know I cannot hear up to 24kHz, but in order to ensure a smooth HF rolloff via the target curve editor in the pro kit, I import the following .csv file:

Hz, Db
20, 0
2000, 0
5000, -0.25
10000, -0.75
24000, -1.5

24kHz is the upper limit of curve-editing. This edit introduces just a bit more HF rolloff beyond the extra rolloff I already get using target curve 2 in my large room. After extensive trial and error, I find it to be the best compromise between curve 2 and SMPTE 202M (which I find way too dull in my 5000 cubic foot room--indeed designed for 500 seat commercial theaters).

Notice in my attached before vs after graphs, Audyssey is applying very little boost in the HF in either room; it closely resembles the natural HF rolloff of my speakers at the MLP in the room. This occurs without issue in my small room using curve 1. However, using curve 1 in my large room results in huge (+6-8db) HF boosts. Pure curve 2 is even a little bright. Edited curve 2 is perfect, and is what's shown in the graphs. Makes sense, since I'm right on the threshold between curves 2 & 3 per Audyssey's recommendation.

That said, do you feel that using target curve 2, curve 3, or a hybrid of the two in a large room is preference or reference? Do you feel I am tweaking the sound to how I prefer it, or am I getting my larger room to the same intended Audyssey sound by taking into account known factors that give large rooms a different sonic character? Does it sound feasible to you that all room sizes can be optimized using a single target curve? Could it be that Audyssey Reference is relative, not absolute?

That's what I interpret when the designer of the system takes more and more HF out of the target curve as room size increases. And should that not be continuously variable instead of discreet in an ideal world?
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post #53299 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post

Are you listening to me? I said that with documented process, the treble it too hot(Measured +8db, although I don;t trust RS mic that much, I do trust my ears). I do not want to listen to music with my ears bleeding. If diff. mic positions is going to skewer the sound, then I need to look for some other alternatives than Audyssey.

With due respect, I do fear some user error here. Why not start a little troubleshooting before you finally give up on Audyssey. Me thinks your case is a rare case worth a close scrutiny. When solved all of us will learn something new. Please share your shortcomings in more details. Many here with much more experience than I have will surely chime in with brave ideas you (and I) would have never though of. Deal?
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post #53300 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 03:11 PM
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nothing gets Feri's blood boiling like the tilted mic trick

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post #53301 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post

Thanks Tandy for taking time and explaining this. I'll try a couple of measurements with different Mic positions.

In respect to mogorf, just try the tilt trick for experimentation purposes only, so you can temporarily tame the 8db boost somewhat in order to experience Audyssey without that distraction. I know it is very hard to hear past extreme brightness. You can also vary the degree of tilt to affect the result (point right at space between LF & RF for greatest HF attenuation). If you like what you hear on 2 channel music, a pro kit might be your best long-term solution. Again, this assumes you've followed all of the other setup guide/FAQ recommendations to the letter and you're to the point of giving up on Audyssey entirely.

At 2,700 cubic feet total acoustical volume, though, the room size issue is probably driving only 2-3db of the boost. By comparison, my HF was being driven about 6db too hot in my 5,000 cubic foot room using target curve 1.

It would be nice if Audyssey allowed you to "turn off" correction above a certain frequency. Other competing products allow this. The best we can do with Audyssey, at the moment, is to alter the target curve using trial and error to get the after graphs to match the before graphs as much as possible above 2kHz (minimize the boost). That works very well in my experience, but costs an additional $700 for the pro kit plus an AVR license.
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post #53302 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

nothing gets Feri's blood boiling like the tilted mic trick

Hi batpig, do you think I'm alone with the boil?
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post #53303 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

In respect to mogorf, just try the tilt trick for experimentation purposes only, so you can temporarily tame the 8db boost somewhat in order to experience Audyssey without that distraction.

In respect to tandy, just forget the tilt trick and look for a solution elsewhere. Why listen to tricks that have nothing to do with the original intentions of the creators of Audyssey. Just do as intended and if you have a problem feel free to come back here.
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post #53304 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

In respect to tandy, just forget the tilt trick and look for a solution elsewhere. Why listen to tricks that have nothing to do with the original intentions of the creators of Audyssey.

Do you even read what Tandy is saying? The intensions of the standard Audyssey curve is not to be used in very large rooms... Why is it okay to deviate from this, and not the mic position?

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post #53305 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post

Do you even read what Tandy is saying? The intensions of the standard Audyssey curve is not to be used in very large rooms... Why is it okay to deviate from this, and not the mic position?

Care to show a site where this is explained, i.e very large rooms need to be EQ'd with a tilted mic?
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post #53306 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post


Do you even read what Tandy is saying? The intensions of the standard Audyssey curve is not to be used in very large rooms... Why is it okay to deviate from this, and not the mic position?

As another data point, I have a nearly 8000 cubic foot room using the standard curve and do not feel there is too much treble. As someone already mentioned, the size of the room may account for a couple db, but not 8db like it sounds in this issue. But our hearing and preference does come into play as well.
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post #53307 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Care to show a site where this is explained, i.e very large rooms need to be EQ'd with a tilted mic?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21967939

You're kinda twisting the conclusion a bit, but the point is that very large rooms require a different target curve with greater HF rolloff that is simply unavailable without using the pro kit. Tilting the mic is the only way I know to approach that curve (attenuate the treble) while still retaining all Audyssey processing when one is using the wrong target curve for their room size. So in essence we are substituting one unintended use of the technology (wrong target curve) for another unintended use (tilting the mic).

In all cases I have noted the mic tilt is temporary and for troubleshooting purposes only. The only reason I even say that is to avoid getting your blood boiling, which is not my intention. Clearly even that doesn't work anymore. ;-)

Is it possible for you to go calibrate a 3000-5000 cubic foot room or two without the pro kit and report back with your findings regarding these topics? Let me ask this...have you ever calibrated a large room with Audyssey?

In my experience, calibrating a small room is a no brainer if the guide and FAQ is followed. A bigger room is a lot trickier due to these points being discussed.
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post #53308 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

As another data point, I have a nearly 8000 cubic foot room using the standard curve and do not feel there is too much treble. As someone already mentioned, the size of the room may account for a couple db, but not 8db like it sounds in this issue. But our hearing and preference does come into play as well.

Yes, other posters have shared findings similar to yours, just as others have shared findings similar to mine (that curve 1 is too bright in large rooms).

Curious how far you sit from the front 3 speakers in your very large room? I think some of this difference in experience may also have to do with that metric, since it's what drives the ratio of direct vs. indirect sound heard. Calibrating a 8000 cubic foot room with MLP at 9 feet is probably quite different than doing a 4000 cubic foot room with MLP at 20 feet.

In a "typical" <2500 cubic foot room, there is a lot less potential variability in these ratios given the smaller physical distances involved.

Fascinating subject, really!
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post #53309 of 71913 Old 04-30-2012, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

Yes, other posters have shared findings similar to yours, just as others have shared findings similar to mine (that curve 1 is too bright in large rooms).

Curious how far you sit from the front 3 speakers in your very large room? I think some of this difference in experience may also have to do with that metric, since it's what drives the ratio of direct vs. indirect sound heard. Calibrating a 8000 cubic foot room with MLP at 9 feet is probably quite different than doing a 4000 cubic foot room with MLP at 20 feet.

In a "typical" <2500 cubic foot room, there is a lot less potential variability in these ratios given the smaller physical distances involved.

Fascinating subject, really!

Very true, my main listening position is 12ft feet from the front 3 speakers. Sides and rears are about 9ft away. So the "theater" portion of the room only takes up about 25ft on one end of the room.
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No, as you well know I cannot hear up to 24kHz, but in order to ensure a smooth HF rolloff via the target curve editor in the pro kit, I import the following .csv file:

Hz, Db
20, 0
2000, 0
5000, -0.25
10000, -0.75
24000, -1.5

24kHz is the upper limit of curve-editing. This edit introduces just a bit more HF rolloff beyond the extra rolloff I already get using target curve 2 in my large room. After extensive trial and error, I find it to be the best compromise between curve 2 and SMPTE 202M (which I find way too dull in my 5000 cubic foot room--indeed designed for 500 seat commercial theaters).

Notice in my attached before vs after graphs, Audyssey is applying very little boost in the HF in either room; it closely resembles the natural HF rolloff of my speakers at the MLP in the room. This occurs without issue in my small room using curve 1. However, using curve 1 in my large room results in huge (+6-8db) HF boosts. Pure curve 2 is even a little bright. Edited curve 2 is perfect, and is what's shown in the graphs. Makes sense, since I'm right on the threshold between curves 2 & 3 per Audyssey's recommendation.

Just to close this out, attached is a before vs. after of Curve 1 vs. Curve 2 + additional rolloff (detailed above) which shows how much less HF boost I'm getting by moving to the recommended curve in my large room.

Using Curve 1, in some spots of the HF range I'm +8db vs. the uncorrected signal. Using Curve 2 + the additional rolloff, I'm maybe +1db or +2db vs. the uncorrected signal in all HF spots except immediately above the midrange compensation dip. Removing that incremental 5-6 db of boost in the treble was critical to enjoyment of the system, and makes it sound much closer to the calibration in my smaller room.

It's one thing to EQ an additional db or two of HF energy, but EQing 6-8db of HF boost is quite another. In my opinion, Audyssey should cap the corrections it makes on the HF side of the spectrum just as it does in the low bass region to avoid straining the system.
LL
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