"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1779 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-01-2012, 02:54 PM
Member
 
tandy1000rl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Keith, me thinks it's the system integrators at Denon/Oknyo/Integra, etc. that are to be blamed. Audyssey is told to EQ and Audyssey EQs.

Nonetheless, I think we have diverted from the subject of explaining tilted mic vs. HF boost.

I'd also be interested to hear geomania's (Mark's) opinion whether this issue would be needed to be addressed in the setup guide or not. The only thing mentioned in the guide in point III/C is: "Point the microphone at the ceiling."

Mark?

Let me be the first to vote for excluding any mention of tilting the mic in the setup guide! I think it's best left for direct conversation so there's no misconception about it's acceptability or appropriateness for long-term use.

Conversely, I do think room size should be mentioned in greater detail in the setup guide, but I did get a sentence about it at the very end which is a start! ;-)
tandy1000rl is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-01-2012, 02:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,522
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 2195
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


Keith, me thinks it's the system integrators at Denon/Oknyo/Integra, etc. that are to be blamed. Audyssey is told to EQ and Audyssey EQs.

If you pop over to the Pro kit thread and take a look at the graphs I posted there, you can see what a mess Audyssey made of my bass (same problem Craig mentions earlier) and what I had to do to finish their job for them. It's nothing to do with Onkyo in my case - with Pro all the number crunching is done in the laptop and the results just uploaded to the 5509.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


Nonetheless, I think we have diverted from the subject of explaining tilted mic vs. HF boost.

I'd also be interested to hear geomania's (Mark's) opinion whether this issue would be needed to be addressed in the setup guide or not. The only thing mentioned in the guide in point III/C is: " Point the microphone at the ceiling."

Mark?

it's in the separate document.
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 05-01-2012, 04:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If you pop over to the Pro kit thread and take a look at the graphs I posted there, you can see what a mess Audyssey made of my bass (same problem Craig mentions earlier) and what I had to do to finish their job for them. It's nothing to do with Onkyo in my case - with Pro all the number crunching is done in the laptop and the results just uploaded to the 5509.

Yes, I have seen and congratulate you for your hard earned results! Now imagine folks with a consumer version where sub distance tweaking is their only resort.

Quote:
it's in the separate document.

Where can I find that separate document, please?
mogorf is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Tandy and all, you may find some useful information here.
mogorf is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:16 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,522
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 2195
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's linked in the Setup Guide post - as in our sig blocks....

http://www.4shared.com/folder/n-7MZhY5/_online.html

Unfortunately that link doesn't seem to be working.
mogorf is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:25 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,522
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 2195
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Tandy and all, you may find some useful information here.

I think it would have been useful to ask Chris directly how he explains the choice of three different curves in Pro, all related to room size, but no choices in the consumer version. This leaves the question for those without Pro as to how they proceed when they have a very large room (more than 2,500 cu feet) which requires, according to Audyssey, a HF roll-off but which they have no way to achieve. They are given a curve that works well in rooms of less than 2,500 cu feet but overemphasises HF in large rooms.

Why do you think Pro specifically gives users a choice of 3 curves, all based on room dimensions?

I think you gave Chris a loaded question so it's no surprise he gave a loaded answer Saying "the mic is faulty" is an easy answer but for those who do not have a faulty mic, it is no answer at all.
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:26 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,522
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 2195
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Unfortunately that link doesn't seem to be working.

Try it again, Feri. It just worked for me.
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:29 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,393
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's nothing to do with Onkyo in my case - with Pro all the number crunching is done in the laptop and the results just uploaded to the 5509.

IMO, the problem is the fact that Audyssey doesn't re-ping the speakers and sub(s) together as a system AFTER it has concluded it's EQ process. I imagine the reason it doesn't do this is that it would take *significant* processing power to evaluate the "splice" and to figure out how to optimize it. Receivers and pre/pro's just don't have that kind of processing power available.

Still, I would think Audyssey Pro should be able to do it, since it's not limited to the on-board processors in the receiver/pre/pro. It may just be that it's too hard to work out the algorithm for this optimization. It may be that the only good way to do it is with a measurement system and a human brain to evaluate the measurements. Imagine all the iterations/combinations of speakers/subs and crossover possibilities that would need to be evaluated to determine the optimal splice.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think it would have been useful to ask Chris directly how he explains the choice of three different curves in Pro, all related to room size, but no choices in the consumer version. This leaves the question for those without Pro as to how they proceed when they have a very large room (more than 2,500 cu feet) which requires, according to Audyssey, a HF roll-off but which they have no way to achieve. They are given a curve that works well in rooms of less than 2,500 cu feet but overemphasises HF in large rooms.

Why do you think Pro specifically gives users a choice of 3 curves, all based on room dimensions?

I think you gave Chris a loaded question so it's no surprise he gave a loaded answer Saying "the mic is faulty" is an easy answer but for those who do not have a faulty mic, it is no answer at all.

No, I don't think so Keith, an ear bleeding HF boost (just borrowing Tandy's words) does need further investigations. Agree? Although we already know Audyssey is not perfect, but on the otherhand it can't be that bad!
mogorf is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:39 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,522
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 2195
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

No, I don't think so Keith, an ear bleeding HF boost (just borrowing Tandy's words) does need further investigations. Agree? Although we already know Audyssey is not perfect, but on the otherhand it can't be that bad!

So how do you explain it then? Audyssey state that large rooms need a greater HF roll-off. This is provided for in Pro with the three different curves, all designed around room size. So how do you explain what people should do when they a) have a consumer version of Audyssey which does not allow a curve with a higher degree of HF roll-off and b) a large room (>2,500 cu feet) which requires such a roll-off. What's the answer when the mic is not broken?
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:39 PM
QuadMersed in bass!
 
giomania's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,947
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Keith, me thinks it's the system integrators at Denon/Onkyo/Integra, etc. that are to be blamed. Audyssey is told to EQ and Audyssey EQs.

Nonetheless, I think we have diverted from the subject of explaining tilted mic vs. HF boost.

I'd also be interested to hear geomania's (Mark's) opinion whether this issue would be needed to be addressed in the setup guide or not. The only thing mentioned in the guide in point III/C is: "Point the microphone at the ceiling."

Mark?

Feri,

It is addressed in point IV D:

D. Place the microphone at ear height when seated.

1. During the measurement process, do not vary the height of the microphone more than a few inches relative to the first measured position.

2. If you have large dipole line-source speakers (Soundlabs, Innersound/Sanders, Magnepan, Martin Logan, etc.), or unusually tall speakers, please visit AVS member JonFo's addendum on Audyssey setup and measurements for large dipole speakers, located here: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~td...ead.php?t=9401


Mark
giomania is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:41 PM
QuadMersed in bass!
 
giomania's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,947
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

So how do you explain it then? Audyssey state that large rooms need a greater HF roll-off. This is provided for in Pro with the three different curves, all designed around room size. So how do you explain what people should do when they a) have a consumer version of Audyssey which does not allow a curve with a higher degree of HF roll-off and b) a large room (>2,500 cu feet) which requires such a roll-off. What's the answer when the mic is not broken?

I was thinking (along the same lines) that maybe the Pro version has different target curves?

Mark
giomania is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

So how do you explain it then? Audyssey state that large rooms need a greater HF roll-off. This is provided for in Pro with the three different curves, all designed around room size. So how do you explain what people should do when they a) have a consumer version of Audyssey which does not allow a curve with a higher degree of HF roll-off and b) a large room (>2,500 cu feet) which requires such a roll-off. What's the answer when the mic is not broken?

Wish I could explain it. Hopefully in the end we will all be much more knowledgable, eh?

Meantime, a HF roll-off (Audyssey target) is usually used for film contents, while for music the Audyssey Flat curve is recommended. I know you do not listen to music in your room, but let's hear what Tandy (or others) have to say. Again, it's the ear bleeding effect that keeps me wondering why it happens despite following the setup guide.
mogorf is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,503
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Feri,

It is addressed in point IV D:

D. Place the microphone at ear height when seated.

1. During the measurement process, do not vary the height of the microphone more than a few inches relative to the first measured position.

2. If you have large dipole line-source speakers (Soundlabs, Innersound/Sanders, Magnepan, Martin Logan, etc.), or unusually tall speakers, please visit AVS member JonFo’s addendum on Audyssey setup and measurements for large dipole speakers, located here: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=9401


Mark

Hi Mark, what I meant to say is that I do not see any reference in the setup guide to tilt the mic toward the speakers when an ear bleeding HF boost is experienced. Am I wrong here? Or how would you recommend to treat such a HF boost that leads to ear bleeding effects? I know the guide is not a troubleshooting guide, but nonetheless. Thanks in advance!
mogorf is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:57 PM
Senior Member
 
hclarkx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Near Sacramento
Posts: 240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If you pop over to the Pro kit thread and take a look at the graphs I posted there, you can see what a mess Audyssey made of my bass (same problem Craig mentions earlier) and what I had to do to finish their job for them. It's nothing to do with Onkyo in my case - with Pro all the number crunching is done in the laptop and the results just uploaded to the 5509.

Keith, I don't think you have any basis for suggesting that Audyssey is at fault for the alignment problem you had. I believe that in fact Audyssey does align the sub and mains. We know from Chris that this is true but we also know from him that many details of the implementation are up to the receiver manufacturer. It has been reported here that Audyssey does not take into account any timing effects of the high and low pass filters in the receiver (I was assuming otherwise until I was corrected here a few weeks ago). There could be issues with the bass management, maybe even the time that the bass management DSP takes to implement the bass management filters, that are throwing off the blend intended by Audyssey. Since time aligning a sub and main should be very easy from Audyssey's tests, it would be surprising if it was gotten wrong prior to the point where Audyssey hands the filter and distance results off to the receiver. I think it's more logical to conclude that something downstream is upsetting the alignment that Audyssey provides to the receiver (via the pro kit or the Audyssey software running in the receiver).

That said, the problem seems most prevalent when two subs are in use. If there is a bug in the Audyssey system, it seems it might be related to having two subs. However, in my own case a problem at the XO has never arisen and I've had one sub, two subs, XT, XT32, Sound EQ pro and the sub EQ. I know this doesn't prove much other than sometimes Audyssey does get it right, or the receiver does not get in the way.

Audyssey has very little control over the receiver makers. Heck, Chis has been unable to get them to even drop the silly large vs small decision process.

I haven't kept close track, but haven't the several incidences of sub alignment we've seen here been with Onkyo receivers? Has it happened with a Denon? I'm not pointing any fingers here, just looking to get at the root of the problem. If it's common to one receiver brand, maybe some questions should go to that manufacturer. Even if it's an Audyssey problem, that might be the place to go to get the problem addressed.
hclarkx is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 07:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
pbarach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 2,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 102
For all the complaints about Audyssey here, I wonder how often Audyssey gets things right and the problems described here are the exception. All I know from personal experience is that my Audyssey equipment/software improved my SQ significantly and added no problems of its own.

AT&T U-Verse Northeast Ohio

Denon x4000, Samsung LED TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, etc.
pbarach is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:04 PM
QuadMersed in bass!
 
giomania's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,947
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Keith, I don't think you have any basis for suggesting that Audyssey is at fault for the alignment problem you had. I believe that in fact Audyssey does align the sub and mains. We know from Chris that this is true but we also know from him that many details of the implementation are up to the receiver manufacturer. It has been reported here that Audyssey does not take into account any timing effects of the high and low pass filters in the receiver (I was assuming otherwise until I was corrected here a few weeks ago). There could be issues with the bass management, maybe even the time that the bass management DSP takes to implement the bass management filters, that are throwing off the blend intended by Audyssey. Since time aligning a sub and main should be very easy from Audyssey's tests, it would be surprising if it was gotten wrong prior to the point where Audyssey hands the filter and distance results off to the receiver. I think it's more logical to conclude that something downstream is upsetting the alignment that Audyssey provides to the receiver (via the pro kit or the Audyssey software running in the receiver).

That said, the problem seems most prevalent when two subs are in use. If there is a bug in the Audyssey system, it seems it might be related to having two subs. However, in my own case a problem at the XO has never arisen and I've had one sub, two subs, XT, XT32, Sound EQ pro and the sub EQ. I know this doesn't prove much other than sometimes Audyssey does get it right, or the receiver does not get in the way.

Audyssey has very little control over the receiver makers. Heck, Chis has been unable to get them to even drop the silly large vs small decision process.

I haven't kept close track, but haven't the several incidences of sub alignment we've seen here been with Onkyo receivers? Has it happened with a Denon? I'm not pointing any fingers here, just looking to get at the root of the problem. If it's common to one receiver brand, maybe some questions should go to that manufacturer. Even if it's an Audyssey problem, that might be the place to go to get the problem addressed.

I have a Denon 4311, and the sub/sat blend was improved by adjusting the sub distances. I had my Audyssey Pro calibration completed by Mark Seaton, and he did all the measuring and adjusting.

Mark
giomania is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:07 PM
QuadMersed in bass!
 
giomania's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,947
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

For all the complaints about Audyssey here, I wonder how often Audyssey gets things right and the problems described here are the exception. All I know from personal experience is that my Audyssey equipment/software improved my SQ significantly and added no problems of its own.

We all suffer from Audyssey OCD! Seriously, Audyssey is a great tool, but it cannot work miracles, given they only have so much control over the AVR, as noted above.

Mark
giomania is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:09 PM
QuadMersed in bass!
 
giomania's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,947
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi Mark, what I meant to say is that I do not see any reference in the setup guide to tilt the mic toward the speakers when an ear bleeding HF boost is experienced. Am I wrong here? Or how would you recommend to treat such a HF boost that leads to ear bleeding effects? I know the guide is not a troubleshooting guide, but nonetheless. Thanks in advance!

I would say let's see where this current discussion of Tandy's issue takes us, and then decide how to address it. That is my $.02

Mark
giomania is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Skylinestar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 73
what is the meaning of "Audyssey corrects each speaker down to it's measured -3dB point"?
Skylinestar is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
jchong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 864
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

what is the meaning of "Audyssey corrects each speaker down to it's measured -3dB point"?

When Audyssey sends the test chirps it will measure the freq response of your speaker and finds where it starts to roll off at the -3dB point. So if let's say your speaker rolls off at 50Hz, Audyssey will detect that and will only apply the EQ down to 50Hz.

Audyssey will not correct below 50Hz for fear of boosting the lower freq beyond the capabilities of your speaker.
jchong is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 09:45 PM
Senior Member
 
hclarkx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Near Sacramento
Posts: 240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

I have a Denon 4311, and the sub/sat blend was improved by adjusting the sub distances. I had my Audyssey Pro calibration completed by Mark Seaton, and he did all the measuring and adjusting.

Mark

Okay. Sounds like it isn't specific to a receiver brand. One step forward.

Do we know if this is a two-sub problem or has it been reported with a one-sub system?
hclarkx is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 10:00 PM
Member
 
tandy1000rl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think it would have been useful to ask Chris directly how he explains the choice of three different curves in Pro, all related to room size, but no choices in the consumer version. This leaves the question for those without Pro as to how they proceed when they have a very large room (more than 2,500 cu feet) which requires, according to Audyssey, a HF roll-off but which they have no way to achieve. They are given a curve that works well in rooms of less than 2,500 cu feet but overemphasises HF in large rooms.

Why do you think Pro specifically gives users a choice of 3 curves, all based on room dimensions?

I think you gave Chris a loaded question so it's no surprise he gave a loaded answer Saying "the mic is faulty" is an easy answer but for those who do not have a faulty mic, it is no answer at all.

Totally agree with this post.

@mogorf:

At one point I had two 4311CI's in my possession (so two consumer mics there), plus I sent one of those to Audyssey labs in California for it to be measured and a replacement was sent. All three consumer mics produced harsh highs in my large room. At some point, if someone keeps telling you the mic is broken, but you've tried 2 mics and a "perfect" mic from Audyssey itself, a rational person stops believing that a defective mic is the issue. Just repeating it doesn't make it so.

Furthermore, I don't expect Chris to come right out and say the consumer Audyssey technology baked into AVRs doesn't work in rooms greater than 2,500 cubic feet. That could jeopardize a lot of potential sales. Furthermore, it does work--to a point--but it also may require a supplement (i.e. the pro kit) for optimal results. We've heard from several posters who have no problems with the default curve in their large rooms. That wasn't the case for me and some other members, however. But as Keith indicates above, why else would the pro kit offer these additional curves for larger rooms if they are not relevant, and the single default Consumer curve is best for all room sizes?

Study all of page 28 here (page 32 of the pdf). If you still don't believe what is written there, then here's the question to ask Chris if you're so inclined:

I have a large (5000 cubic foot) room. My mic is confirmed good, speakers are fine and well-positioned, and measuring positions follow the recommended guidelines. Is it possible that my calibration using the Audyssey Reference curve baked into my AVR can overemphasize the treble in my large room due to an incorrect balance between direct and reflected sound in the high frequencies? Should the target curve change as room size increases beyond that of a "typical" living room?

If he says no, then please ask him why that is written in the pro kit user manual.

The question to him about tilting the mic is pointless. We all know that sticking a microphone 1" from a tweeter is going to measure much more treble energy than placing the mic on the other side of the room pointed away from that same tweeter. All things equal, more measured treble energy will result in less EQ boost of those frequencies.

I appreciate your continued interest in this topic, but it's starting to bore me (and probably the rest of the forum) because the facts and recommendations are out there for anyone to read. I do not understand why you can't also just accept them and move on to more interesting topics?

Ok, off to watch a movie in my High Frequency Roll Off 2 calibrated theater! I think I'll chose Dynamic Volume = Midnight cause it's getting late! ;-)
tandy1000rl is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 10:05 PM
Member
 
tandy1000rl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

I would say let's see where this current discussion of Tandy's issue takes us, and then decide how to address it. That is my $.02

Mark

No issues here! Silky smooth HF in both rooms. We have a couple members who are having excessive HF issues, though. One in a 2,700 cubic foot room, and the other is using electrostatics I believe. Haven't heard from them in a day or two, though. Morgorf and I have been monopolizing the forum so they probably can't get a word in edge-wise! I think we are nearing the conclusion of our friendly debate however. ;-)
tandy1000rl is offline  
Old 05-01-2012, 10:10 PM
Member
 
tandy1000rl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

No, I don't think so Keith, an ear bleeding HF boost (just borrowing Tandy's words) does need further investigations. Agree? Although we already know Audyssey is not perfect, but on the otherhand it can't be that bad!

I dunno, +6-8db of HF boost is certainly crispy, but ear-bleeding may be a bit of an exaggeration on my part. Let's just call it "bright" go forward. ;-)
tandy1000rl is offline  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:41 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,522
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 2195
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

I was thinking (along the same lines) that maybe the Pro version has different target curves?

Mark

Pro has three different curves that can be applied, based on room size and, of course, the curve editor can be used to do any necessary tweaks, as Tandy has reported he had good success with. It seems pretty clear that room size and HF roll-off is an issue, and it is not addressed in any of the oinsumer versions. So anyone with a large (defined by Audyssey as >2,500 cu feet) room is, by definition, using the wrong curve and they have no way to change it. That, IMO, is what Feri should have asked Chris, not a loaded question about "ear bleeding HF".
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 05-02-2012, 04:05 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,522
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 2195
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Keith, I don't think you have any basis for suggesting that Audyssey is at fault for the alignment problem you had. I believe that in fact Audyssey does align the sub and mains. We know from Chris that this is true but we also know from him that many details of the implementation are up to the receiver manufacturer. It has been reported here that Audyssey does not take into account any timing effects of the high and low pass filters in the receiver (I was assuming otherwise until I was corrected here a few weeks ago). There could be issues with the bass management, maybe even the time that the bass management DSP takes to implement the bass management filters, that are throwing off the blend intended by Audyssey. Since time aligning a sub and main should be very easy from Audyssey's tests, it would be surprising if it was gotten wrong prior to the point where Audyssey hands the filter and distance results off to the receiver. I think it's more logical to conclude that something downstream is upsetting the alignment that Audyssey provides to the receiver (via the pro kit or the Audyssey software running in the receiver).


I take your well-reasoned points, Harrison. But I don't think the end user has to worry about who is 'responsible' for the errors. That is for Audyssey and the AVR manufacturer to sort out. It's not unreasonable, based on Audyssey's claims (as quoted by Tandy above), for the end user to come to the conclusion that Audyssey sets the sub distance appropriately and there should therefore be no need for the user to spend considerable time (and the purchase of measuring equipment) in order to get the subs and the mains blended properly.

I also think Craig's point is valid that Audyssey never even measures the subs and mains when working together. As they clearly will be working together when used for listening this seems an extraordinary omission - possible as Craig speculates because the computing power would be beyond reasonable. This means that the user has to employ additional measuring equipment to get an idea of how the subs and the mains are interacting - and at the least Audyssey might mention this, especially for Pro users who are the most likely to have the necessary equipment.

I was very disappointed that Pro gave me such a poor result the first time around. As with Craig, my bass was weak and thin. If it had not been for the forum members here and in the Pro thread, plus the fact I bought OmniMic some time back, plus a lot of messing about, I would have had to dismiss Pro as ineffective and go back to XT32, which incidentally gave me excellent bass in all respects. That is another question that remains unanswered: why did Pro give such a poor result for the LF when EQ1 and XT32 gave such a good result? My EQ1 graph for both subs was very flat for example. I also wonder why the EQ1 was able to produce a graph for each sub whereas Pro can produce only one? All of this, combined with the 'measurement reload bug' which has still not been fixed does tend to diminish one's confidence, perhaps unfairly, in the Pro kit. Similarly, I still never received a satisfactory answer to my question as to why my Pro preamp seems to be one of only two (packed at the same time) that does not have the mic serial number printed on it.

I apologise if this sounds like me just whining - it is not meant to. I am a huge fan of Audyssey and what it can do but this expectation of excellence from them is diminished by the things I mention above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

That said, the problem seems most prevalent when two subs are in use. If there is a bug in the Audyssey system, it seems it might be related to having two subs.

Which makes it even more important and even more urgent that Audyssey sort it out. One of the big promoted benefits of XT32 and Pro is that they can both handle dual subs properly. If they cannot, and we know there are these very questionable areas, then Audyssey needs to address that IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

However, in my own case a problem at the XO has never arisen and I've had one sub, two subs, XT, XT32, Sound EQ pro and the sub EQ. I know this doesn't prove much other than sometimes Audyssey does get it right, or the receiver does not get in the way.

I am sure there are others like you - but equally there are numerous reports from credible users which state that a satisfactory result at the LF end was only obtained after measuring independently and manually adjusting the sub distance settings. There's no doubt about the efficacy of that - it is shown in the graphs and heard by the ears, as you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Audyssey has very little control over the receiver makers. Heck, Chis has been unable to get them to even drop the silly large vs small decision process.

With respect Harrison (and I do mean that), passing the buck to the AVR manufacturers is not going to wash with customers who have paid several hundred dollars for a system which promises them "proper integration" of the bass and the rest of the system. Either Audyssey should remove those claims from their marketing, or they should caveat them that "YMMV depending on the AVR manufacturer's implementation". Either they produce a fully working product or they don't. If they allow the AVR manufacturer to mess up their product's performance by poor implementation, that is for Audyssey to resolve, not for the end user to tolerate. IMO of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

I haven't kept close track, but haven't the several incidences of sub alignment we've seen here been with Onkyo receivers? Has it happened with a Denon? I'm not pointing any fingers here, just looking to get at the root of the problem. If it's common to one receiver brand, maybe some questions should go to that manufacturer. Even if it's an Audyssey problem, that might be the place to go to get the problem addressed.

It may be Onkyo-specific. That is for Audyssey to take up with Onkyo though, not Audyssey's customers. We're not really meant to do their product development or troubleshooting for them.
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 05-02-2012, 04:14 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,522
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 2195
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

For all the complaints about Audyssey here, I wonder how often Audyssey gets things right and the problems described here are the exception. All I know from personal experience is that my Audyssey equipment/software improved my SQ significantly and added no problems of its own.

You are possibly right. Audyssey may well deliver all that it promises 99% of the time. Forums tend to attract people with problems. But equally, it is the experienced users in these forums who winkle out the problems too. It may well be that many Audyssey users believe they have a good result but do not. How many have the means or the knowledge to use independent measuring gear for example?

My own problems with Audyssey only started with Pro. I was totally delighted with what XT32 did for my system (and the EQ1 before it) and I paid several hundred bucks for the Pro kit in the belief it would enhance those improvements even further. It has, eventually, and after a lot of initial problems with the bass/main splice.

Some people (not directed at you) will defend Audyssey to the death it seems and feel it can do now wrong, where others are more critical. I hope that any criticisms I put forward are seen in a constructive, not destructive, light.
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 05-02-2012, 04:17 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,522
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 2195
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

When Audyssey sends the test chirps it will measure the freq response of your speaker and finds where it starts to roll off at the -3dB point. So if let's say your speaker rolls off at 50Hz, Audyssey will detect that and will only apply the EQ down to 50Hz.

Audyssey will not correct below 50Hz for fear of boosting the lower freq beyond the capabilities of your speaker.

Good question from Skylinestar and good answer from you. I will add this to the FAQ as a ryder to one of the relevant answers there. Thanks!
kbarnes701 is online now  
 

Tags
Audyssey , Receivers Amplifiers , Kef Kht1005 2se 5 1 Subwoofer Satellite System With C4 Subwoofer Gloss White , 5 6 7 1 7 2 Or 8 1 8 2 One Or Two Subwoofer Compatible 16 Banana Post 2 Rca Speaker Wall Plate For H
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off