"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 186 - AVS Forum
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post #5551 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 11:54 AM
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Edit: 15 Aug 08: This project is ongoing. The most current version may be found later in the thread.
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post #5552 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 11:55 AM
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Hi all - I have a 3808 Denon and I'm interested in the 'pro' kit. Would anyone that purchased one PM me how they managed to purchased the kit?

I'm willing to pay the bucks - even to have someone that's 'certified' come out the first time but as I change things I don't want to keep paying them to come back.

Thanks!
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post #5553 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

I am still looking for any input into this document, if anyone cares to comment.

Mark

Hi Mark,

This is very helpful. I would also add a link to the FAQ on the Audyssey page that covers some of this and some other questions that we often get.

http://www.audyssey.com/faq/index.html

Thanks
Chris

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post #5554 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 05:32 PM
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mmm after calibration the speakers are set too full range

Lowering the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting is not recommended. why is it not recommended?
??

was told on here too set too 80hz

is this right my sub is at 120hz


and this off audessy faq


Why does Audyssey set my speakers to Large (or Small) when I know they are not?
MultEQ does not set the speakers to Large or Small. This is a decision made by each individual AVR manufacturer and each uses a different speaker roll-off frequency to make this decision. Audyssey recommends the decision should be made using 40 Hz as the roll- off frequency. That is to say, if a speaker is found to roll-off below 40 Hz it should be called Large and all other speakers should be called Small.

If your AVR manufacturer sets your speakers to Large then all content below the crossover frequency is lost as it is not redirected to the subwoofer. Audyssey recommends changing the speaker setting to Small manually after the calibration is finished.


2 very differant views here at the moment i am doing the audessy way .. giomania is saying opposite
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post #5555 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namuk View Post

mmm after calibration the speakers are set too full range

Lowering the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting is not recommended. why is it not recommended?

Because if you go below the frequency that MultEQ found the room correction will not be applied there. Switching from Full Range to Small is not the same as lowering the crossover frequency. It simply means that bass management is applied at the frequency you select and content below that is sent to the subwoofer. In the Full Range case there is no bass management and low frequencies that can't be reproduced by your main speakers are lost forever.

Quote:


was told on here too set too 80hz

is this right

yes, this is good advice

Quote:


my sub is at 120hz

No, it's not. The LFE setting has nothing to do with crossovers. Your sub is set to the exact same frequency as what you select for the main speakers. If you select 80 Hz then your sub is set to 80 Hz as well. 120 Hz only applies to the content that is found on the LFE track on DVDs and HD content. It is not the same thing as the low frequency content found in your 5 channels that is directed to the subwoofer. LFE is additional content put there by the content maker to give extra boom. It is limited to 120 Hz.

Quote:


2 very differant views here at the moment i am doing the audessy way .. giomania is saying opposite

I don't think these are different views. In products where the manufacturer has not yet moved to 40 Hz as the decision point between Large and Small, you should manually set the speakers to Small. In products where 40 Hz is already used as the decision point, you should go with the settings that are found.

Chris

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post #5556 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Because if you go below the frequency that MultEQ found the room correction will not be applied there. Switching from Full Range to Small is not the same as lowering the crossover frequency. It simply means that bass management is applied at the frequency you select and content below that is sent to the subwoofer. In the Full Range case there is no bass management and low frequencies that can't be reproduced by your main speakers are lost forever.



yes, this is good advice



No, it's not. The LFE setting has nothing to do with crossovers. Your sub is set to the exact same frequency as what you select for the main speakers. If you select 80 Hz then your sub is set to 80 Hz as well. 120 Hz only applies to the content that is found on the LFE track on DVDs and HD content. It is not the same thing as the low frequency content found in your 5 channels that is directed to the subwoofer. LFE is additional content put there by the content maker to give extra boom. It is limited to 120 Hz.



I don't think these are different views. In products where the manufacturer has not yet moved to 40 Hz as the decision point between Large and Small, you should manually set the speakers to Small. In products where 40 Hz is already used as the decision point, you should go with the settings that are found.

Chris


well when i run audessy me sub is set too 120 hz (not touched i no this by audessy) only thing is touched in sub is DB level ... after calibrition the speakers are at full range front \\ rears and centre I am right to set them all to 80hz YES? the distences are bang on

thats the only thing i touch in the setup after alll the rest is audessy
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post #5557 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namuk View Post

well when i run audessy me sub is set too 120 hz (not touched i no this by audessy) only thing is touched in sub is DB level ... after calibrition the speakers are at full range front \\ rears and centre I am right to set them all to 80hz YES? the distences are bang on

thats the only thing i touch in the setup after alll the rest is audessy

I am curious; what is the specified frequency range of all your speakers?

Mark
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post #5558 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

I am curious; what is the specified frequency range of all your speakers?

Mark

mine are the ae 1 and 3

http://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/Abo..._1%202%203.asp
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post #5559 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 09:01 PM
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I'm having a problem where my LCR speakers are all noticeably quieter than the surrounds, to the point that dialogue and other sounds appear to come from behind or beside me. Any suggestions? I could tweak the speaker settings but I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Here are some details, I'm not sure what is relevant

- Denon 2809 Receiver running the default calibration + all speakers set to small
- Ran it twice with the same problem
- I used 8 positions as suggested in this thread with mic pointed up at ear level
- When I set it to Pure (Audyssey off) the problem goes away
- All the distance measurements appear correct
- It set most of my surrounds at around -2 and the LCR at about +1
- Fronts are Paradigm Studio 100s, surrounds are much smaller Paradigm Monitors
- My side surrounds are set back from the main listening position by about 2'
- The room is roughly 12'x22', and the main listening position is about 10' from the screen.
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post #5560 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namuk View Post

well when i run audessy me sub is set too 120 hz (not touched i no this by audessy) only thing is touched in sub is DB level ... after calibrition the speakers are at full range front \\ rears and centre I am right to set them all to 80hz YES? the distences are bang on

thats the only thing i touch in the setup after alll the rest is audessy

Namuk,

It's Onkyo not Audyssey that is setting these. Yes, Onkyo uses information from the Audyssey calibration, but the decision on where to set them is made by Onkyo. It will do the same thing every time you run Audyssey, so that's why you are seeing this.

Yes, you are right to set them to 80 Hz. Full Range is not useful for many reasons.

Chris

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post #5561 of 73229 Old 08-12-2008, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9volt View Post

I'm having a problem where my LCR speakers are all noticeably quieter than the surrounds, to the point that dialogue and other sounds appear to come from behind or beside me. Any suggestions? I could tweak the speaker settings but I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Here are some details, I'm not sure what is relevant

- Denon 2809 Receiver running the default calibration + all speakers set to small
- Ran it twice with the same problem
- I used 8 positions as suggested in this thread with mic pointed up at ear level
- When I set it to Pure (Audyssey off) the problem goes away
- All the distance measurements appear correct
- It set most of my surrounds at around -2 and the LCR at about +1
- Fronts are Paradigm Studio 100s, surrounds are much smaller Paradigm Monitors
- My side surrounds are set back from the main listening position by about 2'
- The room is roughly 12'x22', and the main listening position is about 10' from the screen.

If you have movie dialog coming from the surrounds at all (at any level) then you are in the wrong decoding mode. When you switch to Pure Direct, it goes away because it probably defaults to a more standard decoding mode.

What mode are you in when listening to DVDs? (e.g., Dolby Digital, DTS, All Channel Stereo, etc.)

Chris

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post #5562 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

If you have movie dialog coming from the surrounds at all (at any level) then you are in the wrong decoding mode. When you switch to Pure Direct, it goes away because it probably defaults to a more standard decoding mode.

What mode are you in when listening to DVDs?

I think you are right, I may have been in 7 channel stereo mode or something like that. I wasn't seeing an obvious DD/DTS/etc setting and probably had it set incorrectly. I'll double check tonight. Thanks for the help.
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post #5563 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The smaller the room, the greater the acoustical problems.

So are you recommending Audyssey MultEQ XT over Audyssey MultEQ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlaavenger View Post

So are you recommending Audyssey MultEQ XT over Audyssey MultEQ?

Bigger, badder, faster - of course!
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post #5565 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlaavenger View Post

So are you recommending Audyssey MultEQ XT over Audyssey MultEQ?

Of course, but it's your pocket book.

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #5566 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 09:43 AM
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I just got a Denon 1909 so I'm new to the Audyssey world. I'm very happy with the sound after the auto-seup (very easy). I have a question about the crossovers.

It set my mains & surrounds to Large. The Center was set to Small w/ 120Hz crossover. The Sub has a 120Hz crossover.

I tried changing the speaker config (setting the mains & rears to small w/ their own crossovers) and it really changed the sound. Something is defintely missing from the original setup sound. If I restore it back under the Auto settings the great sound comes back. I understand changing the crossovers will change the sound, but I didn't expect it to be so dramatic. Am I missing something? It is almost like the MultiEQ is no longer working with the new crossovers.

I guess I don't mind leaving the speakers set to Large, but I was hoping to play around with the crossovers to see what sounded best.
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post #5567 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat View Post

I just got a Denon 1909 so I'm new to the Audyssey world. I'm very happy with the sound after the auto-seup (very easy). I have a question about the crossovers.

It set my mains & surrounds to Large. The Center was set to Small w/ 120Hz crossover. The Sub has a 120Hz crossover.

I tried changing the speaker config (setting the mains & rears to small w/ their own crossovers) and it really changed the sound. Something is defintely missing from the original setup sound. If I restore it back under the Auto settings the great sound comes back. I understand changing the crossovers will change the sound, but I didn't expect it to be so dramatic. Am I missing something? It is almost like the MultiEQ is no longer working with the new crossovers.

I guess I don't mind leaving the speakers set to Large, but I was hoping to play around with the crossovers to see what sounded best.

What speakers and sub do you have?

When you had your speakers to Large, was LFE+Main selected as the subwoofer mode?

Chris

PS. The $1 penalty for putting an "i" in MultEQ is waived because you are new to Audyssey

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post #5568 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlaavenger View Post

So are you recommending Audyssey MultEQ XT over Audyssey MultEQ?

What Kal is saying is that room problems are most severe in the low frequencies and small rooms suffer more from low frequency problems. MultEQ XT has higher resolution filters and this benefit is most apparent in the low frequency correction of the main speakers.

Chris

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post #5569 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

What speakers and sub do you have?

When you had your speakers to Large, was LFE+Main selected as the subwoofer mode?

Chris

PS. The $1 penalty for putting an "i" in MultEQ is waived because you are new to Audyssey

Sorry about the spelling.

I have Boston Acoustics:
VRC - center 70 Hz - 20 KHz
VR2's - main 41 Hz - 20 KHz
CR95 - rear 35 Hz - 20 KHz
Outlaw LFM-1c - sub 25 Hz - 180 Hz

The Auto setup set them to Large and it was set to LFE (not LFE+Main)

Edit: I am running a 5.1 setup (bi-amping the mains with the two unused channels).
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post #5570 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 10:24 AM
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Is there a list of Audyssey MultEQ XT AVRs or Pre/Pros?

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #5571 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Is there a list of Audyssey MultEQ XT AVRs or Pre/Pros?

http://www.audyssey.com/products/index.html
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post #5572 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat View Post

Sorry about the spelling.

I have Boston Acoustics:
VRC - center 70 Hz - 20 KHz
VR2's - main 41 Hz - 20 KHz
CR95 - rear 35 Hz - 20 KHz
Outlaw LFM-1c - sub 25 Hz - 180 Hz

The Auto setup set them to Large and it was set to LFE (not LFE+Main)

Edit: I am running a 5.1 setup (bi-amping the mains with the two unused channels).

Denon properly uses 40 Hz as the criterion for Large or Small. MultEQ very likely reported 40 Hz as the roll-off for your fronts and rears and so they were set to Large. The Center was correctly set to Small.

Can you describe more what you mean by "something is missing" when you set the speakers to Small? Is your sub functioning properly? All that should happen when you switch to Small is that the bass from those channels is sent to the sub. So, if what is missing is the bass then the sub would be the first suspect.

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post #5573 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Denon properly uses 40 Hz as the criterion for Large or Small. MultEQ very likely reported 40 Hz as the roll-off for your fronts and rears and so they were set to Large. The Center was correctly set to Small.

Can you describe more what you mean by "something is missing" when you set the speakers to Small? Is your sub functioning properly? All that should happen when you switch to Small is that the bass from those channels is sent to the sub. So, if what is missing is the bass then the sub would be the first suspect.

Chris

It really isn't the bass. It is kind of hard to describe the difference. It just doesn't sound as dynamic. Almost as it would sound if I turned the MultEQ off without changing the crossovers.

I tried setting the crossovers at 40 Hz for the mains and rears, which should sound close to having them set to Large right? But it didn't...
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post #5574 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Mark,

This is very helpful. I would also add a link to the FAQ on the Audyssey page that covers some of this and some other questions that we often get.

http://www.audyssey.com/faq/index.html

Thanks
Chris

Thanks Chris. I will add that link.

Edit: I modified the first few lines...see post at the top of this page.

Mark
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post #5575 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 12:56 PM
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I will be running Audyssey tomorrow for the first time with my Onkyo 805 and 5.1 Klipsch Heresy III system w/Epik Knight sub. The head rest of my lazy boy tops out about 6 inches higher than my head. Should I set the mic on top of the lazy boy headrest and duct tape it pointed towards the ceiling for the tests?

Another idea is to set up a regular wood chair in that position with stacked boxes to set the mic at the same height that my head normally rests. I don't own a tripod. Any advice would be great. Thx.
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post #5576 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FatesWarning View Post

I will be running Audyssey tomorrow for the first time with my Onkyo 805 and 5.1 Klipsch Heresy III system w/Epik Knight sub. The head rest of my lazy boy tops out about 6 inches higher than my head. Should I set the mic on top of the lazy boy headrest and duct tape it pointed towards the ceiling for the tests?

Another idea is to set up a regular wood chair in that position with stacked boxes to set the mic at the same height that my head normally rests. I don't own a tripod. Any advice would be great. Thx.

Hi,

I would fully recline the Lazy Boy and invest a few dollars in an inexpensive tripod and set the microphone at ear level.

Larry
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post #5577 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Denon properly uses 40 Hz as the criterion for Large or Small. MultEQ very likely reported 40 Hz as the roll-off for your fronts and rears and so they were set to Large.

Why would 40Hz be the cutoff when all channels are full range and can contain frequencies well below 40Hz? Dolby states that all channels are 3Hz to 20kHz (http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...y_digital.html).

It seems like speakers should always be set to small for home theatre (unless they go as low as your subwoofer, in which case you probably want a better sub).
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post #5578 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

It seems like speakers should always be set to small for home theatre (unless they go as low as your subwoofer, in which case you probably want a better sub).

I am 1000% with you on this. If you only listen to music, then there are "full range" speakers. For home theater use, there are none - at least none that most of us can afford.
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post #5579 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Thanks Chris. I will add that link.

Edit: I modified the first few lines...see post at the top of this page.

Mark

Mark,

Excellent piece of work. The manufacturers should do so well in their manuals!

But, I wonder if the stress on equidistant subwoofer locations is too strong. I moved my second sub from the front wall to a side wall to make it equidistant from my center seat and thereby changed a broad and modest dip above the crossover frequency into three sharper 20 db dips below the crossover frequency.

With the second sub on the front wall my subs differ by about 3 feet at the center seat, more at the left seat and less at the right seat. The phase difference between the sound from the two subs is thus on the order of 1/4 wavelength at or above the crossover frequency. With a 1/4 wavelength difference the signal is down just 30% (a few db) and exhibits a modest phase error. MultEQ easily corrects both.

With the second sub on a side wall where it is equidistant from the center seat, the direct wave from that sub meets with a reflected wave from the opposite wall causing a very deep notch at each of my three seats. Each notch is at a different frequency and all three are below the crossover frequency. MultEQ cannot fully correct them.

While subwoofer placement can't be treated thoroughly in your FAQ, I suggest a rule of thumb that the subs be within about three feet of being equidistant from the center seat. That might avoid users moving their subs to locations that degrade performance. You might also include a link to a site with a good dissertation on sub locations.

Good work. I wish I had thought of doing this.

Harrison
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post #5580 of 73229 Old 08-13-2008, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Mark,

Excellent piece of work. The manufacturers should do so well in their manuals!

But, I wonder if the stress on equidistant subwoofer locations is too strong. I moved my second sub from the front wall to a side wall to make it equidistant from my center seat and thereby changed a broad and modest dip above the crossover frequency into three sharper 20 db dips below the crossover frequency.

With the second sub on the front wall my subs differ by about 3 feet at the center seat, more at the left seat and less at the right seat. The phase difference between the sound from the two subs is thus on the order of 1/4 wavelength at or above the crossover frequency. With a 1/4 wavelength difference the signal is down just 30% (a few db) and exhibits a modest phase error. MultEQ easily corrects both.

With the second sub on a side wall where it is equidistant from the center seat, the direct wave from that sub meets with a reflected wave from the opposite wall causing a very deep notch at each of my three seats. Each notch is at a different frequency and all three are below the crossover frequency. MultEQ cannot fully correct them.

While subwoofer placement can't be treated thoroughly in your FAQ, I suggest a rule of thumb that the subs be within about three feet of being equidistant from the center seat. That might avoid users moving their subs to locations that degrade performance. You might also include a link to a site with a good dissertation on sub locations.

Good work. I wish I had thought of doing this.

Harrison

Mark, great condensation of recomendations!!! As Harrison noted, some using multiple subs may run into other issues with placement options. Here is a link to a white paper by Todd Welti:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

And another pretty good link of sub placement:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...or-bass-part-1

Ray

 

"Listen with an open heart and mind."

 

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