"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 187 - AVS Forum
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post #5581 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Why would 40Hz be the cutoff when all channels are full range and can contain frequencies well below 40Hz? Dolby states that all channels are 3Hz to 20kHz (http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...y_digital.html).

It seems like speakers should always be set to small for home theatre (unless they go as low as your subwoofer, in which case you probably want a better sub).

What Dolby is talking about is the frequency range of each channel on the recording. What Denon is concerned with in the large/small speaker distinction which they set at 40 Hz is how your speakers perform in your room. I'm not aware of any speaker that can cover the full range from 3 Hz to 20 kHz that Dolby mention. The 40 Hz distincition that Denon are making is their dividing line between allowing the speaker to handle the full frequency range contained in that channel on the source disc and not allowing the speaker to do so and, instead, allowing the sub to handle the content below a set crossover frequency.

Channels are full rangeyou can't change the data on the discbut speakers have limitations. While you can't change the data on the disc, you can allow low frequencies for the speaker channels to be passed to the sub to handle in addition to the LFE channel.

The advice to set all speakers to "Small" is good advice. It allows the sub to handle frequencies where the speaker would be rolling off and where Audyssey can't provide correction without driving the amp into overload, and it allows the sub, which can provide a higher resolution of correction with Audyssey at those frequencies, to handle them a lot better than the speaker would.
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post #5582 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Why would 40Hz be the cutoff when all channels are full range and can contain frequencies well below 40Hz? Dolby states that all channels are 3Hz to 20kHz (http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...y_digital.html).

It seems like speakers should always be set to small for home theatre (unless they go as low as your subwoofer, in which case you probably want a better sub).

I totally agree! We have been on a mission to get manufacturers to abolish Large and Small completely. It is an antiquated notion from the days of manual set up and was intended as a simple "visual" guide for the poor consumer that had no idea what to do with bass management. This terminology has no place in today's products.

We are making some progress. Up until last year everyone used 80 Hz as the decision point and this resulted in huge complaints because most speakers were set to Large (or Full Range) and nothing was being sent to the sub.

Setting the speakers to Small always is something that we strongly recommend. But we don't get to enforce that in the AVR bass management systems...yet.

Chris

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post #5583 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aiken View Post

What Dolby is talking about is the frequency range of each channel on the recording.
...
Channels are full rangeyou can't change the data on the discbut speakers have limitations. While you can't change the data on the disc, you can allow low frequencies for the speaker channels to be passed to the sub to handle in addition to the LFE channel.

Yes, that's exactly my point. The problem is that Denon (and other AVR manufacturers) are setting speakers to large if they can play down to 40Hz. So any low bass on the disk will be lost and not passed to the sub. It's good to see that Audyssey is pushing them to change this, but at least today a lot of people who just run the auto setup and don't question it will be missing out on something.
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post #5584 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Yes, that's exactly my point. The problem is that Denon (and other AVR manufacturers) are setting speakers to large if they can play down to 40Hz. So any low bass on the disk will be lost and not passed to the sub. It's good to see that Audyssey is pushing them to change this, but at least today a lot of people who just run the auto setup and don't question it will be missing out on something.

Thankfully Marantz seem to do this properly - I have very large full size speakers that will "technically" go down to 35hz but my Marantz SR8001 (using AEQXT) sets the sub cross-over to 60hz which produces a really nice soundscape.

Having Always believed that THX's 80hz rule is king; I experimented raising the cross-over to 80z but at some frequencies the sub produces "boomy" bass (cant move sub to diff location) and so AEQXT is obviously detecting this and making use of my LCR's to handle everything above 60hz.

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post #5585 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 04:30 PM
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Just got my Denon 1909 from J&R today and before I start hooking it up and running the auto setup I want to make sure I have my speakers set up properly. I have a Polk Audio RM6600 satellite / sub system w/ the Polk PSW 350 subwoofer - it's probably 6 or 7 years old at this point but still sounds great for the room I use it in.

In any event, the Polk manual (HERE) suggests (basically insists) that rather than using the LFE out on the receiver, that you send the Front L/R outputs from the receiver to speaker inputs on the subwoofer and then connect the Front L/R satellites to speaker outputs on the SW, bypassing the RCA LFE cable entirely (Fig G on pg 15). It then suggests you tell the receiver that your Front L/R speakers are "Large" and that your Subwoofer is "None" even though that is somewhat counterintuitive.

There are basically 4 controls on the back of the subwoofer:

1) Volume Knob - they recommend setting it to 1:00

2) Low Pass (Hz) Knob - they recommend setting it somewhere between 105 and 135 (at least that's what it looks like from the manual) - the knob goes from 80 to 160

3) Phase Switch - either 0 degress or 180 degress (they recommend 180)

4) Power - either On, Off or Auto

So I guess my question is, with the 1909 and the Audyssey Auto Setup, should I wire the speakers up the way Polk strongly recommends? And if so, what should I set each of the controls listed above to?

On pg 25 of the 1909's manual it says:

A) "Defeat the volume and crossover controls if possible" - I don't think that is possible based on the controls listed above is it?

B) "If this is not possible set:
- Volume to 12:00 - that I can figure out
- Crossover Frequency to Maximum/Highest Frequency - which control above is this referencing???
- Low Pass Filter to Off - can I do this???
- Standby Mode to Off - I assume that is the Power switch and I should leave it on "On"?

Sorry for the super specific questions but I really have no idea what the various SW controls do (if you couldn't already tell) and want to make sure I am set up properly before starting auto setup.

Thanks in advance.
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post #5586 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Yes, that's exactly my point. The problem is that Denon (and other AVR manufacturers) are setting speakers to large if they can play down to 40Hz. So any low bass on the disk will be lost and not passed to the sub. It's good to see that Audyssey is pushing them to change this, but at least today a lot of people who just run the auto setup and don't question it will be missing out on something.

I have the new Denon 1909, which set my fronts (JBL E80) to Large and rest to small (a step up from my previous pioneer which was setting almost every speaker as large).

So, as I understand it, no matter what the AVR sets the speakers to (even though they are towers), set them manually to "Small" and that is the best setting. Is this a correct statement?
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post #5587 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post

I have the new Denon 1909, which set my fronts (JBL E80) to Large and rest to small (a step up from my previous pioneer which was setting almost every speaker as large).

So, as I understand it, no matter what the AVR sets the speakers to (even though they are towers), set them manually to "Small" and that is the best setting. Is this a correct statement?

The consensus seems to be yes they should be set as small, as there most certainly could be bass on front L/R audio channels that's lower than your main speakers can reproduce properly. But if you change them to small you have to decide on the crossover frequency, and the best value may depend on whether your receiver supports a different crossover for each speaker. So it's a big minefield, and I'm not claiming to have all the answers .

Also those who listen to two channel music as well as movies may have two different settings. e.g. run all speakers as small for movies and then switch to a two channel mode without the sub for music (if they have large tower speakers).
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post #5588 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricScott View Post

Just got my Denon 1909 from J&R today and before I start hooking it up and running the auto setup I want to make sure I have my speakers set up properly. I have a Polk Audio RM6600 satellite / sub system w/ the Polk PSW 350 subwoofer - it's probably 6 or 7 years old at this point but still sounds great for the room I use it in.

In any event, the Polk manual (HERE) suggests (basically insists) that rather than using the LFE out on the receiver, that you send the Front L/R outputs from the receiver to speaker inputs on the subwoofer and then connect the Front L/R satellites to speaker outputs on the SW, bypassing the RCA LFE cable entirely (Fig G on pg 15). It then suggests you tell the receiver that your Front L/R speakers are "Large" and that your Subwoofer is "None" even though that is somewhat counterintuitive.

The reason for that is (1) the system is old enough that it does not assume there's a real LFE output even though Polk can accommodate it, (2) the specs are very optimistic and (3) the manual is riddled with typos.

Quote:


There are basically 4 controls on the back of the subwoofer:
1) Volume Knob - they recommend setting it to 1:00
2) Low Pass (Hz) Knob - they recommend setting it somewhere between 105 and 135 (at least that's what it looks like from the manual) - the knob goes from 80 to 160
3) Phase Switch - either 0 degress or 180 degrees (they recommend 180)
4) Power - either On, Off or Auto

So I guess my question is, with the 1909 and the Audyssey Auto Setup, should I wire the speakers up the way Polk strongly recommends? And if so, what should I set each of the controls listed above to?

I would say no, especially with your access to Audyssey. OTOH, you can use Polk's recommendations as an alternative. (Boy, I hate companies like Polk, Bose, etc. that use/recommend non-standard configurations!)

Quote:


On pg 25 of the 1909's manual it says:
A) "Defeat the volume and crossover controls if possible" - I don't think that is possible based on the controls listed above is it?

Quote:


B) "If this is not possible set:
- Volume to 12:00 - that I can figure out
- Crossover Frequency to Maximum/Highest Frequency - which control above is this referencing???
- Low Pass Filter to Off - can I do this???

Turn Low Pass up as high as possible.

Quote:


- Standby Mode to Off - I assume that is the Power switch and I should leave it on "On"?

Standby OFF is the same as "On."

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #5589 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Namuk,

It's Onkyo not Audyssey that is setting these. Yes, Onkyo uses information from the Audyssey calibration, but the decision on where to set them is made by Onkyo. It will do the same thing every time you run Audyssey, so that's why you are seeing this.

Yes, you are right to set them to 80 Hz. Full Range is not useful for many reasons.

Chris

yea i not it is not audessy it is onkyo just needed to clear up the settingt the 80hz for speakers

thanks

also that 120hz i have it set in amp at 120hz and the dial on sub at full i.e 120hz phase is off i.e 0 i am right in doing this ? then i run audessy got -05db when sub was new after runin and run audyessy again i got -1.5db on settings due to the sub has slackned off (same volume and settings) distences were bang on
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post #5590 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The reason for that is (1) the system is old enough that it does not assume there's a real LFE output even though Polk can accommodate it, (2) the specs are very optimistic and (3) the manual is riddled with typos.

I would say no, especially with your access to Audyssey. OTOH, you can use Polk's recommendations as an alternative. (Boy, I hate companies like Polk, Bose, etc. that use/recommend non-standard configurations!)


Turn Low Pass up as high as possible.

Standby OFF is the same as "On."


Thanks for the response!

Have been doing some reading on the Polk forums and it seems that most people recommend going w/ the simpler standard LFE connection as long as your AVR has adjustable crossovers. My Denon does and it seems that the ideal crossover setting would be 150 Hz (at -3db the range on the satellites starts at 140 Hz). So I may get an LFE cable and rewire my system - my guess is it will yield better results w/ Audyssey and frankly that's why I bought this receiver in the first place. I just hope that during the Auto Setup, Audyssey sets the crossover at a high enough value and doesn't default to 80 b/c it definitely sounds like my speakers require a higher crossover.

If I go this route, I still don't think I can defeat the crossover controls on the subwoofer so should the settings of the other controls still hold - in other words turn the LFE to the max, turn standby off and put volume at 12:00?

Thanks again.
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post #5591 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricScott View Post

If I go this route, I still don't think I can defeat the crossover controls on the subwoofer so should the settings of the other controls still hold - in other words turn the LFE to the max, turn standby off and put volume at 12:00?Thanks again.

Yes.

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #5592 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Yes.

Thanks!
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post #5593 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 08:18 PM
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Anyone using the Audyssey sound Equalizer? It looks like a very cool product.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #5594 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi,

I would fully recline the Lazy Boy and invest a few dollars in an inexpensive tripod and set the microphone at ear level.

Larry

I am not familiar with tripods. I searched amazon and see they sell tripods for cameras. What type of cheap tripod would work and where can I buy one locally? Also, I assume your suggesting that I recline the lazy boy so it's almost flat and stand the tripod on the seat cushion of the lazy boy? Finally, if I moved the recliner out of the area would that adversely affect the Audyssey settings?
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post #5595 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FatesWarning View Post

I am not familiar with tripods. I searched amazon and see they sell tripods for cameras. What type of cheap tripod would work and where can I buy one locally?

I got this one from microcenter for 10 bucks (doesn't even have to be as good as this one):
http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0206212

to each his own...
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post #5596 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 08:55 PM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post14441194
Is the audyssey on my 606 applicable to this thread?
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post #5597 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 08:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Anyone using the Audyssey sound Equalizer? It looks like a very cool product.

It is an extremely cool product, but you do need to be in an environment with a processor and amplifiers that you can put it in between.
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post #5598 of 72231 Old 08-13-2008, 09:15 PM
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Quote:


It is an extremely cool product, but you do need to be in an environment with a processor and amplifiers that you can put it in between.

Yes, I have separates throughout my house

Im currently testing DIY speakers with a DCX2496 but I spent some time reading info on the audyssey website and I read about this sound equalizer. I do not know if it handles active crossovers though.

My AVRs or Pre/Pros so far do not have MultEQ XT and I do not think the new Emotiva UMC-1 will have it either

I hate to ask what the MRSP on it is though EDIT: MRSP back in 2006 was $2500

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post #5599 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 12:31 AM
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I need a little clarification here.

I know that Audyssey won't do any correction below the measured -3dB point of any channel.
My speakers are all detected as fullrange, So I would assume Audyssey will correct all the way down. So what if I set an 80Hz crossover? Will Audyssey still do correction al lthe way down?

The reason I ask is I have some strong peaks at 65Hz and 37Hz for my front channels. Even the 37Hz peak will be above the 75dB target when crossed over at 80Hz, and I would like Audyssey to bring them down, even if they are below crossover.

"Unplugging the signal cable is pretty much the ultimate in component isolation. Now if you removed the AC power and it still did it you should look for the little blond girl saying "they're he-re."
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post #5600 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatesWarning View Post

I am not familiar with tripods. I searched amazon and see they sell tripods for cameras. What type of cheap tripod would work and where can I buy one locally? Also, I assume your suggesting that I recline the lazy boy so it's almost flat and stand the tripod on the seat cushion of the lazy boy? Finally, if I moved the recliner out of the area would that adversely affect the Audyssey settings?

Hi,

Yes, an inexpensive camera tripod would be fine.

For starters you could recline the Lazy Boy until its lower than ear level. Then place the tripod mounted microphone at ear level, but not too close to the seat back. I would keep it more than a foot away.

Larry
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post #5601 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Anyone using the Audyssey sound Equalizer? It looks like a very cool product.

I have two in two different systems, one with active DEQX crossovers.

In the actively crossed setup I use the Audyssey in front of the DEQX, but only for multichannel feeds. For pure two channel I bypass the Audyssy. You can't really use it after your active crossovers. (Maybe if you used the DCX to cross over to subs you could have one channel of the Audyssey just do the subs post DCX, but then you'd have to get the time alignment with the mids and tweets delayed to match the delay in the Audyssey. It'd be pretty complicated.)

It's a great product. Good user interface with terrific functionality. While you can get good results with a simple "follow the directions" process, you'll get better results through repeated trial and error. In that way it's no different than any other high end gear.
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post #5602 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 06:29 AM
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I'm not sure what was the problem earlier, but I've set the speakers to small and I'm able to change the crossovers and it still sounds great.

Any recommendations on the crossovers (or other settings) with my setup:

Denon AVR-1909

Boston Acoustics:
VRC - center 70 Hz - 20 KHz
VR2's - main 41 Hz - 20 KHz
CR95 - rear 35 Hz - 20 KHz

Outlaw Audio:
LFM-1c - sub 25 Hz - 180 Hz

My room is pretty small (no bigger than 11' X 12'). It is an apartment with very high ceilings and it opens up into the kitchen area. I'm moving into a house some time in the next few months and I'm hoping the new room will be better suited for my HT setup.
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post #5603 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 07:39 AM
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Does the order listening position matters (multieq for denon avr-789), that is having position #2 and #3 to the sides of the main listening position or should it be to the sides of the position in front of the main position. thanks.
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post #5604 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Anyone using the Audyssey sound Equalizer? It looks like a very cool product.

My initial experience with it is: http://www.stereophile.com/musicinth...itr/index.html

I am currently writing up my experiences comparing it with Anthem's ARC and that will appear in the November issue.

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #5605 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 08:49 AM
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Quote:


My initial experience

Kal, Very impressive article and I really like how you explain things!

Maybe someday I will find a used EQ to play around with...Im still using sub $1K Processors because I just do not get a big "WOW" impression of more expensive equipment.

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post #5606 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bagakay View Post

Does the order listening position matters (multieq for denon avr-789), that is having position #2 and #3 to the sides of the main listening position or should it be to the sides of the position in front of the main position. thanks.

After #1, the order of the remaining positions does not matter.
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post #5607 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atledreier View Post

I need a little clarification here.

I know that Audyssey won't do any correction below the measured -3dB point of any channel.
My speakers are all detected as fullrange, So I would assume Audyssey will correct all the way down. So what if I set an 80Hz crossover? Will Audyssey still do correction al lthe way down?

MultEQ doesn't really "care" what each manufacturer uses for a decision point for Full Range (Large). It will create a correction filter down to the frequency where it found the -3 dB point to be. So, if you set your crossover below that frequency you will start to lose the benefits of correction. This is a gradual loss so it's not a sudden drop. You can set it to any frequency above the found -3 dB point and have the full benefit of correction. The tricky part is that not all manufacturers report what MultEQ found as the -3 dB point so there is a little guessing.

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The reason I ask is I have some strong peaks at 65Hz and 37Hz for my front channels. Even the 37Hz peak will be above the 75dB target when crossed over at 80Hz, and I would like Audyssey to bring them down, even if they are below crossover.

I would start with 80 Hz and let the sub correction filters handle the lower octaves.

Chris

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post #5608 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat View Post

I'm not sure what was the problem earlier, but I've set the speakers to small and I'm able to change the crossovers and it still sounds great.

Any recommendations on the crossovers (or other settings) with my setup:

80 Hz is always a good starting point.

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post #5609 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 11:16 AM
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I have Klipsch RF-82s, WC-24, and RW-10d.
My Denon 1909 did an auto setup of my system and it sounds quite good to me.
Should I set my speakers to small and crossover to 80hz if they are not set that way at this point?

to each his own...
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post #5610 of 72231 Old 08-14-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

MultEQ doesn't really "care" what each manufacturer uses for a decision point for Full Range (Large). It will create a correction filter down to the frequency where it found the -3 dB point to be. So, if you set your crossover below that frequency you will start to lose the benefits of correction. This is a gradual loss so it's not a sudden drop. You can set it to any frequency above the found -3 dB point and have the full benefit of correction. The tricky part is that not all manufacturers report what MultEQ found as the -3 dB point so there is a little guessing.



I would start with 80 Hz and let the sub correction filters handle the lower octaves.

Chris

And if the LPF on LFE is above the crossover point, then the Audyssey correction filter(s) for the .1 channel will handle those newly re-routed bass frequencies as part of the channel?

- Jeff
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