"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 189 - AVS Forum
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post #5641 of 72415 Old 08-14-2008, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Indy View Post

I asked because it was stated earlier that in running LARGE for fronts then some bass frequencies that are lower than your speaker is capable of producing is lost. I just thought that double bass would reroute those lower frequencies to my sub which goes into the low 20 hz's and they wouldn't be lost.

Then don't run them large. Since Audyssey measures each speaker individually, I am not concerned about having multiple sources interacting when producing the same signals.

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post #5642 of 72415 Old 08-14-2008, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Why? Do you need more bass? I have never appreciated the need for the 'double-bass' setting unless something in the system is inadequate.

Not necessarily. If one's mains are capable enough*, then running them full range can sometimes yield the significant benefit of smoother upper bass response in the entire listening area.

I know in my room, switching the 4306 to LFE+Main markedly improved bass FR across the entire listening area. (Mean bass level did not increase.) Even with multiple subs. Maybe it helps more in my system than most because my mains are above the room's vertical centerline and thus excite more and different modes than the subwoofers alone do. But every time I've experimented with running LFE+Main/Double Bass in a system with mains capable of significant output above 50Hz or so and controlled rolloff below (low-Q sealed, which in most commercial speakers means stuffing the ports) I've noticed similar results.

Obviously, with 7" 2-ways it's a bad idea. In such a situation, hopefully one has a speaker upgrade planned anyway...

*By "capable enough" I mean "having enough cone area and efficiency to reproduce upper bass with minimal dynamic compression. Lots of speakers can go low, but do so only because they're inefficient, and power compression rears its ugly head whenever one tries to play music with lots of lower midrange and upper bass content through them. I would say a useful minimum is mains with 10" woofers, or double 8's, and 90dB/w/m sensitivity.

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post #5643 of 72415 Old 08-14-2008, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atledreier View Post

I need a little clarification here.

I know that Audyssey won't do any correction below the measured -3dB point of any channel.
My speakers are all detected as fullrange, So I would assume Audyssey will correct all the way down. So what if I set an 80Hz crossover? Will Audyssey still do correction al lthe way down?

The reason I ask is I have some strong peaks at 65Hz and 37Hz for my front channels. Even the 37Hz peak will be above the 75dB target when crossed over at 80Hz, and I would like Audyssey to bring them down, even if they are below crossover.

It seems this post got lost in the small vs large discussion these last pages... Anybody know?

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post #5644 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by jazzbass View Post

I changed it because it seems like it was suggested in this thread somewhere that the main L/R should be around 60hz-80hz and the subwoofer should be set around 120hz no matter what the auto audyssey set-up configures. Is this wrong? It's very possible that I didn't read this. I might be able to hear a difference if I really turned up the volume but at normal listening level, I couldn't really hear a difference. My main concern was that with the sub crossover set so low I was missing some LFE info and not getting the full effect. I like a lot of lows. Thanks very much for your help.

I think listening to a good sound system is like drink fine wine. You have to have developed the acquired taste for it. i.e months/years of experience and tasting to develop your senses.

An audiophile would probably find the best setting would be mains at 80Hz and sub at 120Hz. If your willing to keep listening critically, and try to recognise subtle sounds within the piece your listening to, you may eventually develop an audiophile ear. However, this is a very dangerous thing to acquire. Once you have an audiophile ear, nothing will seem perfect. You will find fault in every system/room. Maybe your better to just leave as is. Enjoy listening to your system, and don't delve into the bottomless depths of becoming an audiophile. So far, I managed to keep my head above these bottomless depths.
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post #5645 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 02:46 AM
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I have a question for Chris which I can't remember ever being addressed here.

After Audyssey has been run (and before you start fiddling with the settings), what range has MultEQ covered on the sub?

Audyssey finds the -3dB for my mains as 150Hz. I am happy to set the Xovers at 150Hz, but I need to know that my sub has been EQed up to that level.
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post #5646 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atledreier View Post

I need a little clarification here.

I know that Audyssey won't do any correction below the measured -3dB point of any channel.
My speakers are all detected as fullrange, So I would assume Audyssey will correct all the way down. So what if I set an 80Hz crossover? Will Audyssey still do correction al lthe way down?

The reason I ask is I have some strong peaks at 65Hz and 37Hz for my front channels. Even the 37Hz peak will be above the 75dB target when crossed over at 80Hz, and I would like Audyssey to bring them down, even if they are below crossover.

OK, first you need to know what "full range" means. It means that the speaker's in-room -3 dB point is below a frequency chosen by the receiver manufacturer. That frequency is 40 Hz in some cases and 80 Hz in others depending on who made your receiver and what frequency they chose at the time they made it. If the manufacturer chose 80 Hz and your speaker measured -3 dB at 75 Hz, it would be classified as full range. Audyssey corrects to the in-room 3 dB point which in this case would be 75 Hz, hardly "all the way down".

So, to your question about a 37 Hz peak and an 80 Hz crossover. There are 3 possibilities:

1- you're running the speaker full range with an 80 Hz crossover and the measured in-room -3 dB point is below 37 Hz. In this case Audyssey will provide correction if you're running double bass but if you have the speaker bass managed it won't be handling that frequency, the sub will, and the sub will be getting Audyssey correction so it still gets corrected.

2- you're running the speaker full range with an 80 Hz crossover and the -3 dB point for the speaker is above 37 Hz. Regardless of whether you're running double bass or not, the speaker will not get correction at 37 Hz because it's below it's measured 3 dB point.

3- you're not running the speaker full range. In this case it isn't handling the 37 Hz frequency because it's below the crossover and all info below the crossover has been handled to the sub so there will be nothing corrected in the speaker at this frequency. The sub is getting correction so it gets corrected there.

Substitute 65 Hz for 37 Hz in those 3 scenarios to deal with your other peak. If the speaker's in-room -3 dB point falls between 37 Hz and 65 Hz, Audyssey will be able to provide correction for 65 Hz for that speaker, if the speaker is handling content below 80 Hz, but the 37 Hz peak won't.

Does that help?
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post #5647 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 04:01 AM
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Yes, I got my clarification, anyway. Thank you.

My exact scenario:

My fronts and center measure good response down to about 30Hz in-room. I have them crossed over at 80Hz. My processordetermine them as large (40Hz). In my listening position there is a severe node at 37Hz. If I run a sweep with the speakers crossed over at 80Hz and a full range 75dB target, the 37Hz peak still end up at about 80dB. Even with the 12dB/oct rolloff from 80Hz. So in my case I would greatly benefit from correction even below the crossover point. Maybe 'double bass' would do more good than harm in my case. I will try it and see.

"Unplugging the signal cable is pretty much the ultimate in component isolation. Now if you removed the AC power and it still did it you should look for the little blond girl saying "they're he-re."
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post #5648 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

You might also note that the sub filter in MultEQ is much higher resolution than the satellite filters, so it can be beneficial to allow more material to be sent to the sub, i.e. raise the crossover higher than MultEQ's original setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I usually think of performance being "affected" as a negative thing, but yes setting a crossover on a LARGE speaker or lowering it if there is already a crossover does affect system performance - it makes it better.

No, just the opposite.

Gary J
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post #5649 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

No, just the opposite.

Do I get credit for being half right?


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post #5650 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Do I get credit for being half right?

As long as you're owing up to the half wrong.

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post #5651 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

As long as you're owing up to the half wrong.

Fair enough.


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post #5652 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atledreier View Post

It seems this post got lost in the small vs large discussion these last pages... Anybody know?

Hi,

It was answered in post #5607

Chris

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post #5653 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

I have a question for Chris which I can't remember ever being addressed here.

After Audyssey has been run (and before you start fiddling with the settings), what range has MultEQ covered on the sub?

Audyssey finds the -3dB for my mains as 150Hz. I am happy to set the Xovers at 150Hz, but I need to know that my sub has been EQed up to that level.

MultEQ will EQ the sub up to the highest frequency it finds it to go. That's why it is so important not to have a low pass filter applied on the sub because it will interfere with that correction.

Chris

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post #5654 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:


Audyssey finds the -3dB for my mains as 150Hz. I am happy to set the Xovers at 150Hz, but I need to know that my sub has been EQed up to that level.


Nothing against MultEQ or Audyssey in general but I still would rather EQ any sub system properly with a Mic, REW (on a PC) and a Sub EQ and let Audyssey just handle all my mains.

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post #5655 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Mark, great condensation of recomendations!!! As Harrison noted, some using multiple subs may run into other issues with placement options. Here is a link to a white paper by Todd Welti:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

And another pretty good link of sub placement:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...or-bass-part-1

Thanks. I added links to those articles.

Mark


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post #5656 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Mark,

Excellent piece of work. The manufacturers should do so well in their manuals!

But, I wonder if the stress on equidistant subwoofer locations is too strong. I moved my second sub from the front wall to a side wall to make it equidistant from my center seat and thereby changed a broad and modest dip above the crossover frequency into three sharper 20 db dips below the crossover frequency.

With the second sub on the front wall my subs differ by about 3 feet at the center seat, more at the left seat and less at the right seat. The phase difference between the sound from the two subs is thus on the order of 1/4 wavelength at or above the crossover frequency. With a 1/4 wavelength difference the signal is down just 30% (a few db) and exhibits a modest phase error. MultEQ easily corrects both.

With the second sub on a side wall where it is equidistant from the center seat, the direct wave from that sub meets with a reflected wave from the opposite wall causing a very deep notch at each of my three seats. Each notch is at a different frequency and all three are below the crossover frequency. MultEQ cannot fully correct them.

While subwoofer placement can't be treated thoroughly in your FAQ, I suggest a rule of thumb that the subs be within about three feet of being equidistant from the center seat. That might avoid users moving their subs to locations that degrade performance. You might also include a link to a site with a good dissertation on sub locations.

Good work. I wish I had thought of doing this.

Harrison

Does anyone have any input on Harrison's thoughts?

Thanks.

Mark


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post #5657 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

After #1, the order of the remaining positions does not matter.

Good point. I added a caveat in the document.

Mark


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post #5658 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Nothing against MultEQ or Audyssey in general but I still would rather EQ any sub system properly with a Mic, REW (on a PC) and a Sub EQ and let Audyssey just handle all my mains.

Does your sub have a low pass filter on the back? If it does then MultEQ can only EQ up to the frequency you have it set to. If it doesn't then you can be sure that MultEQ is EQing up to 500+ Hz as most subs have no problem going that high. So, crossing over at 150 Hz is not an issue. But if your sub only lets you turn up the low pass to, say, 120 Hz then there is potentially an EQ hole between 150 Hz and 120 Hz.

One day sub manufacturers will get with the times and realize that filters on the sub serve no purpose any more. The crossovers should be done digitally in the processor or AVR.

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post #5659 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Nothing against MultEQ or Audyssey in general but I still would rather EQ any sub system properly with a Mic, REW (on a PC) and a Sub EQ and let Audyssey just handle all my mains.

I thought that as well until I removed my Rane PE17 from the .1 and set up Audyssey. Now I have a different definition of "properly."

Just my $.02.

- Jeff


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post #5660 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 09:39 AM
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I thought that as well until I removed my Rane PE17 from the .1 and set up Audyssey. Now I have a different definition of "properly."

Just my $.02.

MultEQ or MultEQ TX

Do you have the before and after FR plots? It would be interesting to see those.

I will have too run my system through MultEQ TX once I pick the right receiver (more importantly get the right price! ).

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Does your sub have a low pass filter on the back? If it does then MultEQ can only EQ up to the frequency you have it set to. If it doesn't then you can be sure that MultEQ is EQing up to 500+ Hz as most subs have no problem going that high. So, crossing over at 150 Hz is not an issue. But if your sub only lets you turn up the low pass to, say, 120 Hz then there is potentially an EQ hole between 150 Hz and 120 Hz.

One day sub manufacturers will get with the times and realize that filters on the sub serve no purpose any more. The crossovers should be done digitally in the processor or AVR.

My subs are all passive and run through amps and a DCX2496.

Now if you have one sub in your system then I would agree the filter on the back might be useless but for some of us that have "sub systems" sometimes its nice to have a filter to control different sets of subs...my monster subs handle 50Hz and below. My "Mid bass" subs handle 50Hz up to around 100Hz and its all EQed and there isnt an EQ out there that will make it flatter or give a better decay plot (I have bought many and tried). It will be interesting to see what happens in terms of MultEQ TX. I think my setup is so custom that its impossible for it to get it right. Obviously that is not the norm.

Still, I would want to see the FR plots and Waterfall measurements from anyone that says "Its better".

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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

MultEQ or MultEQ TX

Do you have the before and after FR plots? It would be interesting to see those.

I will have too run my system through MultEQ TX once I pick the right receiver (more importantly get the right price! ).

MultEQ XT. No plots or graphs. Just decades of audiophile listening under my belt and a keen understanding of what flat bass is.


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post #5663 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 10:15 AM
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I have a Denon AVP-A1HDCI, and use the L/R/LFE subwoofer configuration in my set up. My L/R subs (Velodyne DD-15's) are near my mains, but not right next to them. I seem to recall L/R sub setup guidance that they should be within three feet of each respective main speaker to limit time alignment issues. This advice may have come from Lexicon (for use with their bass enhance feature), but I do not recall for sure.

I used the Velodyne SMS in the DD-15's to determine their optimum locations within my room. I was wondering what the current thinking is regarding the placement of the L/R subs with Audyssey? Should I be going for the optimum placement (smoothest frequency response) no matter their proximity to the L/R mains? Common sense tells me this is correct, but I need a sanity check.

Thanks for any input.

Mark


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post #5664 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 11:16 AM
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I REALLY hope Chris or someone else can help me. I have spent hours reading this thread and any other Audysey/crossover info I can find, but absolutely can not figure this out. I have run Audyssey on my Denon 1909 multiple times, but still get the same problem. Although I have learned what crossover values are, much of what I read in this thread leaves me completely confused.


When I ran Audyssey I got crossover values of 200 hz front, 200 hz center, and 150 hz surround. The Channel levels were FL +8.5, FR +9, C +5.5, SW +12, SL +9, SR +10. On the second try I got the same crossovers and very similar levels. The third time gave me crossover levels of 150 across the board. From reading I gather that these values are way out of line, even though I have small satelitte speakers.


The second time I ran Audyssey I got repeat messages that the "ambient noise is too loud or levels to low" (something to that effect). I did not get this the first time I ran Audyssey (I didn't note any of the levels that time, but reran it since I didn't have my sub on LFE).

I live on a cul de sac with no traffic, had the computer and air off, etc so ambient noise should have been minimal.


I turned the receiver off, read for info on the problem, "straightened the mic cord, replugged it in, etc. I came back again and got the second second and third readings I described without any ambient noise warnings.


FWIW, I didn't pay that much attention to the phase warnings because I read that if everything checked out just skip. I did get a warning the very first time I ran Audyssey, and am fairly sure it was for both my FL and FR speaker. I do not remember what happened the first time I ran Aud. today. The second and third time I ran Aud. today it only showed the FR speaker being out of phase.


As I said, I have a Denon 1909 receiver. My speaker/sub set is the Infinity TSS-750. Here is info on the speakers:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-10-2004.html
http://www.onhometheater.com/product/20041115.htm

My subwoofer is set to LFE, phase 0, crossover frequency 150 (max) and level 12:00.


If anyone can help me I would very much appreciate it. I've spent several hours trying to figure this out and can not. Thank You.


OMeany
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post #5665 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post

I have a Denon AVP-A1HDCI, and use the L/R/LFE subwoofer configuration in my set up. My L/R subs (Velodyne DD-15's) are near my mains, but not right next to them. I seem to recall L/R sub setup guidance that they should be within three feet of each respective main speaker to limit time alignment issues. This advice may have come from Lexicon (for use with their bass enhance feature), but I do not recall for sure.

I used the Velodyne SMS in the DD-15's to determine their optimum locations within my room. I was wondering what the current thinking is regarding the placement of the L/R subs with Audyssey? Should I be going for the optimum placement (smoothest frequency response) no matter their proximity to the L/R mains? Common sense tells me this is correct, but I need a sanity check.

Thanks for any input.

Mark

The basics still apply and "speaker position" is one of them. Aesthetics and practicality usually intercede, but by all means get the smoothest response that you can by moving the speakers.


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post #5666 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by omeany View Post


When I ran Audyssey I got crossover values of 200 hz front, 200 hz center, and 150 hz surround. The Channel levels were FL +8.5, FR +9, C +5.5, SW +12, SL +9, SR +10. On the second try I got the same crossovers and very similar levels. The third time gave me crossover levels of 150 across the board. From reading I gather that these values are way out of line, even though I have small satelitte speakers.

Considering the very small size of the TSS-750 these values seem exactly right. I would be concerned if you were getting values lower than 150 Hz. The difference between 200 Hz and 150 Hz is not huge. It can change if the first mic position is not exactly in the same place. I would go with the 150 Hz setting. The level trims are a little high, but depend on how far the speakers are from your main seat where you place the mic first.


Quote:


The second time I ran Audyssey I got repeat messages that the "ambient noise is too loud or levels to low" (something to that effect). I did not get this the first time I ran Audyssey (I didn't note any of the levels that time, but reran it since I didn't have my sub on LFE).

This is related to the trims being reported high. The level of chirps that are being captured by the mic needs to be at a certain level above the background noise and it seems like you are right on the border.

Quote:


FWIW, I didn't pay that much attention to the phase warnings because I read that if everything checked out just skip.

If you have checked the wiring on the back of the 1909 and each speaker then hit skip.

Quote:


My subwoofer is set to LFE, phase 0, crossover frequency 150 (max) and level 12:00.

Turn the sub level up so that the trim comes in at something less than +12 dB

Chris

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post #5667 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post

I was wondering what the current thinking is regarding the placement of the L/R subs with Audyssey?

Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Thanks. I added links to those articles.

Audyssey or otherwise, I think the best setup guide for multiple subwoofers is found in the GedLee Summa whitepaper on pg. 3.
"The GedLee approach to good low frequency perception is to use multiple low frequency sources spread around the room. This approach is obtaining widespread acceptance as the optimal way to deal with the modal region issues. However, unlike some approaches, GedLee does not recommend identical sources in fixed and symmetric locations. Instead we recommend many low frequency sources generally spread around the room at random.
It is always a good idea to place one of the sources in a corner, and one of the sources above the room's centerline. This tends to make for the smoothest response."


The advantages of the Geddes approach compared to the Welti approach are two, as I have experienced it.

1) Requires one less subwoofer. (Dr. Geddes runs three in his own system.)
2) Superior ULF performance because one sub is corner-loaded.

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post #5668 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 01:11 PM
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Chris,

Thank You very much for the response. I would have saved myself alot of time and frustration if I would have asked you first before trying to figure it out myself. I evidently don't have the basic knowlegde needed to interpret what I read. I initially thought the small size of the speakers might be the reason for my values. I evidently combined different things I read in my head, because I thought I had read this would be wrong even for my small speakers - which is why i said "even though I have small satelitte speakers". I also misunderstood a post you made about "localization" and "blending".


As far as the "ambient noise" issue - I actually have very little noise in the room I am in (as I said, cul de sac, no AC, nothing but receiver and tv on, etc). The first time and last couple of times I ran Audyssey I did not get the "ambient noise" warning (I got it repeatedly on my second overall attempt(s) as I kept retrying). In fact, I don't believe I ever got a 2nd set of louder chirps other than that time. So I would be very surprised if that was the reason for my levels being high. Is there anything else that would cause the levels to be this high?


I was aware that going with such small speakers would involve tradeoffs, especially considering the very large speakers that many of the enthusiasts use on here. For my family, its a matter of balancing form (small size) and performance. Since its a multipurpose room I don't expect "the best", and wouldn't pay a premium for small incremental improvements to get to that level. I would like good solid sound at the best "bang for the buck". FWIW I have the Denon 1909 receiver and Pioneer 5020 plasma if that tells you anything (Many people on here have much bigger, more expensive tvs and receivers, but these were good choices for my needs). I am considering upgrading speakers - with bookshelf speakers for the FL, C, and FR, - and in-ceiling (on a slanted ceiling) aimable speakercrafts for the rear surrounds. Would this setup avoid the 200 hz crossover and overwhelming "localization of content from the sub" that you described? Or would I have to move beyond bookshelf size speakers to get good, solid sound sound?


I realize that it will depend in part on the speakers I choose, but without getting into specifics, I'm just trying to determine if I can significantly improve my setup by moving up to bookshelf speakers (and in ceilings for the rear surrounds). Or perhaps it would require large floor speakers or a large amount of $ that would be overkill for this room (as opposed to a home theater room).


Thank You again for your response. It is very much appreciated. I really want to get the most out of my current setup with the Audyssey features. In fact, it was the great things I read about Audyssey on this forum (and this thread) that convinced me to upgrade to the receiver I chose. Without your explanation I would have likely spent alot more time rerunning Audyssey, looking for explanations, etc.


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post #5669 of 72415 Old 08-15-2008, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Audyssey or otherwise, I think the best setup guide for multiple subwoofers is found in the GedLee Summa whitepaper on pg. 3.
"The GedLee approach to good low frequency perception is to use multiple low frequency sources spread around the room. This approach is obtaining widespread acceptance as the optimal way to deal with the modal region issues. However, unlike some approaches, GedLee does not recommend identical sources in fixed and symmetric locations. Instead we recommend many low frequency sources generally spread around the room at random.
It is always a good idea to place one of the sources in a corner, and one of the sources above the room's centerline. This tends to make for the smoothest response."


The advantages of the Geddes approach compared to the Welti approach are two, as I have experienced it.

1) Requires one less subwoofer. (Dr. Geddes runs three in his own system.)
2) Superior ULF performance because one sub is corner-loaded.

I will read this paper.

Mark


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I am still looking for any input into this document, if anyone cares to comment.

Mark

B. Do not stand in between the speaker and the microphone or anywhere that the sound is either reflected off of you or absorbed by you. The natural room acoustics must be substantially unaffected.

FWIW, I stepped back and crouched to remove myself from the upper, more resonant, half of my room. It's been suggested that I employed a high level of anality, but the results are stunning.


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