"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 193 - AVS Forum
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post #5761 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

That is odd because I find your target curve matches 222M variant that I use. Here is an example of an average result from Audyssey with this compensation that makes a flat line if you a following that house curve. 222M of course has three different variants.

Hi Jeff,

I agree. For the benefit of the thread, SMPTE 222M (also referred to as modified X curve) has the following spec:

Flat to 2 kHz and then 1.5 dB/octave roll-off above that.

A variant of that makes it flat to 4 kHz and then follows a 3 dB/octave roll off

Yet another (rarely used) variant has a low frequency rolloff below 60 Hz.

The SMPTE curve was derived based on very specific listening room acoustical conditions including requirements for critical distance, volume, etc.

Since these conditions are difficult to match in a typical home listening room, the Audyssey curve is somewhere in between:

Flat to 4 kHz, then -2 dB at 10 kHz, then -6 dB at 20 kHz. Very similar to variant #2 above, but with a key difference being the double knee in the roll-off. That decision was based on very long experiments that looked at several competing variables including speaker directivity, critical distance, and perception of the balance between direct and reverberant sound as a function of speaker directivity.

In the MultEQ Pro software, there are some other presets that the installer can use. And with the 3.0 version out this CEDIA, the installer can customize the target curve at will with a drawing tool or by typing in specific frequency adjustments.

We will be showing this at the Curtis Hotel during CEDIA. It would be great if you had time to stop by.

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post #5762 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

...The provided mic may look cheap, but it is within ±2 dB of the industry-standard B&K 1/4". We had to create a special manufacturing process at the factory to reject those that don't meet this spec.
...Chris


That is a valiant effort at this price point, but I find +-2db to be too loose a tolerance for the best sound qualiy. I agree with the following quote from the results of the "Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners invLoudspeaker Tests: A Case Study" by Sean E. Olive, AES Fellow.

Quote:


"The loudspeakers with the flattest, smoothest, and most extended frequency responses received the highest ratings."

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post #5763 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

That is a valiant effort at this price point, but I find +-2db to be too loose a tolerance for the best sound qualiy.

Hi Jeff,

That's why the mic that Audyssey installers use is +/- 0.25 dB.

Chris

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post #5764 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 02:17 PM
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Hello,

I am the owner of a TX NR-905 Onkyo with a 7.1 KEF Speaker System hooked up to it. My speakers areQ

Front L&R- KEF IQ9
Center -----KEF IQ6c
Side Surr-- KEF IQ8ds (dipoles)
Back Surr--KEF IQ3
SUB------- KEF PSW3500

The system has been running perfectly fine and Audyssey had many successful runs till now. Two months a go I moved house so I started playing around again with the settings since the new room the system is placed is different and much bigger. The first time I run Audyssey in my new home was a month ago and everything went smooth.

However, yesterday I tried running Audyssey again and no matter what I do it would fail stating that "Ambient noise is too High" while I was in a dead silent room!!!

I did not pay attention since i was also getting ready to upgrade my 905 3 DSPs firmware and the main firmware to the latest versions and also to correct DTS HD MA issues.So the firmwares were updated successfully and I tested the unit playing back content (Blu-Ray, wavs, CDs etc) and ofc everything was fine. So I went ahead to check Audyssey again and now I get a different error. I have the mic at the center and on a tripod and while the test starts and goes around all the speakers (I can hear the test noise as before playing one time on each speaker) after the subwoofer the test fails!!! I get a Retry or Cancel option and an error detecting the Front Left & Right speakers. (exclamation mark on them).

I checked wiring, moved the mic but nothing!!! What was working fine now does not! Please tell me what to do since this is driving me crazy.
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post #5765 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JargonGR View Post

So I went ahead to check Audyssey again and now I get a different error. I have the mic at the center and on a tripod and while the test starts and goes around all the speakers (I can hear the test noise as before playing one time on each speaker) after the subwoofer the test fails!!! I get a Retry or Cancel option and an error detecting the Front Left & Right speakers. (exclamation mark on them).


In what order do you hear the speakers being pinged?

Chris

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post #5766 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 02:41 PM
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The go in this order--> Front Left-->Center-->Front Right--->Right Surround (Side the dipole)-->Right Back Surround--->Left Back Surround--->Left Surround (Side dipole)---> Subwoofer and the I get the error instead of the move to next position.

The strange thing is that I even inspected the speakers (Front L&R) and playd a lot of music to check and defects but they sound fine.
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post #5767 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post

Thanks. I will change it to 120Hz.
Do you mean center Xover should be in line with main?
As per JBL spec. Ec25 freq. response is 80Hz-20Khz, hence I thought I would set it to 90Hz.)

I always believe that you should totally ignore the written specs of your speakers, but in this case I think you are right and should set the centre's Xover to 90Hz. I think Audyssey is giving you a lower setting due to some loading off your wall. Do you have the centre against the wall or cabinet under the screen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post

I know it is loud, as while watching TV (with DD), at -40db, the things were shaking (while watching Live free or Die hard)

Chris (Audyssey) stated a few posts ago that TV stations mostly ignore lower frequencies in their mixing, probably because they believe that the sound will only ever be heard through cheap speakers within your TV cabinet. This may be what your hearing.
Listen to a few DVDs with good balanced LFE before deciding what to do with your sub. If your still not happy, maybe go through giomania's Audyssey proceedure to see if you accidently did something that's created the excessive LF.
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post #5768 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JargonGR View Post

The go in this order--> Front Left-->Center-->Front Right--->Right Surround (Side the dipole)-->Right Back Surround--->Left Back Surround--->Left Surround (Side dipole)---> Subwoofer and the I get the error instead of the move to next position.

The strange thing is that I even inspected the speakers (Front L&R) and playd a lot of music to check and defects but they sound fine.

That's the right order...I wonder if something happened to your mic or mic cable during the move. Or maybe the mic connector? I would contact Onkyo and ask them for a replacement mic.

Chris

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post #5769 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

It will not. MultEQ doesn't even look at that setting.



You may have to turn it down for some TV content and back up to the standard value for DVDs and HD movies. That's why it's best to do that in the Denon menu. Easy to change to exactly the same value.

Chris

Ok the bass is really out of control. Had some people over and they said - "dude your whole room is shaking, the bass seems really high" and my wife is really giving me a hard time. Of course this was while watching the Olympics again (esp. when they go to commercial and play the Olympics theme).

Audyssey had my sub set at -2.5 dB (most of the other channels were + adjustments including +8.0 for the Center channel, FL, FR and Surrounds were all about +5.0). Fortunately I think Denon lets you save separate speaker settings for each input so I can probably tweak the bass down for just TV (maybe to -7.5). I assume that's the right direction?

And just wanted to confirm that while messing w/ the crossovers (raising them) has no impact on the Audyssey setup, messing w/ the channel settings does, correct? Is there anything I can do to my system (a setting on the Denon or setting the SW volume lower or higher) and then re-run Auto Setup to have it set the bass lower by itself? I would just guess that if I re-run it, I will come out w/ the same settings.
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post #5770 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

That's the right order...I wonder if something happened to your mic or mic cable during the move. Or maybe the mic connector? I would contact Onkyo and ask them for a replacement mic.

Chris



I am coming down to the conclusion that the mic might have crapped out but why does it only exhibit this problem for my front speakers. The rest are detected properly.


EDIT: I am now testing with 2 different main speakers to see how it will do.
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post #5771 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 03:35 PM
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I have a question about the 80Hz crossover settings that are being suggested to be set within the amplifier for the front speakers. I am looking to buy KEF iQ9 speakers, and when I look at the specs for them it says their crossover frequency is 250Hz - 2.8kHz.

Does this mean that changing the setting within the amp to 80Hz for these speakers will not have the right effect because the lowest the speakers have for their internal crossover is 250Hz? Since that internal value is higher, will putting in a lower value like 80Hz in the amp settings have the right effect?
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post #5772 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

That's the right order...I wonder if something happened to your mic or mic cable during the move. Or maybe the mic connector? I would contact Onkyo and ask them for a replacement mic.

Chris


Well i just finished testing with two other speakers I had laying around (Warfadale Diamond 8.2) and those got detected Properly!!! I even hooked one KEF one Diamond at a time and each time the IQ9 returned the error? What could it be? The speakers play fine and there is no visible damage on them and it is really rare to have them both damaged at the same time. Could it be any settings within the Onkyo?
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post #5773 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

I always believe that you should totally ignore the written specs of your speakers, but in this case I think you are right and should set the centre's Xover to 90Hz. I think Audyssey is giving you a lower setting due to some loading off your wall. Do you have the centre against the wall or cabinet under the screen?

It is against the wall, like a couple inches from it.
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post #5774 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JargonGR View Post

Well i just finished testing with two other speakers I had laying around (Warfadale Diamond 8.2) and those got detected Properly!!! I even hooked one KEF one Diamond at a time and each time the IQ9 returned the error? What could it be? The speakers play fine and there is no visible damage on them and it is really rare to have them both damaged at the same time. Could it be any settings within the Onkyo?

It's very possible that they have a damaged driver (usually the tweeter, but could be any driver). Play some pink noise and block each driver with your hand and listen to the other drivers. If one of them is not playing, it could cause this. The fact that the other speakers work fine points to the speakers. All internal Onkyo settings are ignored when MultEQ runs so it's definitely not that.

Chris

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post #5775 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricScott View Post


Audyssey had my sub set at -2.5 dB (most of the other channels were + adjustments including +8.0 for the Center channel, FL, FR and Surrounds were all about +5.0). Fortunately I think Denon lets you save separate speaker settings for each input so I can probably tweak the bass down for just TV (maybe to -7.5). I assume that's the right direction?

And just wanted to confirm that while messing w/ the crossovers (raising them) has no impact on the Audyssey setup, messing w/ the channel settings does, correct? Is there anything I can do to my system (a setting on the Denon or setting the SW volume lower or higher) and then re-run Auto Setup to have it set the bass lower by itself? I would just guess that if I re-run it, I will come out w/ the same settings.


The fact that your sub trim is reported at -2.5 dB and the other channels are high positive numbers tells me that the volume control on your sub is too high. Usually, the LFE input bypasses the volume control. But in this case it may not. So, I would suggest turning the volume control down on the sub to the 1/4 point or so and rerunning MultEQ.

There is not setting in the Denon that you can set prior to running MultEQ. All internal settings are ignored during measurement.

Also, after you run MultEQ make sure you go to the subwoofer settings menu and make sure that you don't have LFE+Main selected as the subwoofer mode.

Also, what mode are you in when listening to the Olympics? Is it Dolby Digital or some other DSP simulation mode?

Have you listened to DVDs? That's really the reference. What you are hearing could be due to other factors including bad decoding in your cable/sat box. Many are known to incorrectly decode LFE, particularly over the HDMI port.

Chris

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post #5776 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricScott View Post

Ok the bass is really out of control. ...

Audyssey had my sub set at -2.5 dB (most of the other channels were + adjustments including +8.0 for the Center channel, FL, FR and Surrounds were all about +5.0). Fortunately I think Denon lets you save separate speaker settings for each input so I can probably tweak the bass down for just TV (maybe to -7.5). I assume that's the right direction? ...

Please read the Subwoofer setup section of the handy guide forum Member giomania has compiled. It addresses this excatly.

Bottom line: turn down your sub about 10db on the sub itself.
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post #5777 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

It's very possible that they have a damaged driver (usually the tweeter, but could be any driver). Play some pink noise and block each driver with your hand and listen to the other drivers. If one of them is not playing, it could cause this. The fact that the other speakers work fine points to the speakers. All internal Onkyo settings are ignored when MultEQ runs so it's definitely not that.

Chris

Well sound is coming from all the drivers and I am 100% sure the bass drivers are perfect. What I hear a bit muddy is the midrange tones but with Uni-Q and that late at night here I can't pump up the volume and check so tomorrow.
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post #5778 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 06:22 PM
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Do you have to be quiet after the chirps/steps when relocating the microphone for each/next reading?

Is it still recording between each miccrophone relocation step?

Husker
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post #5779 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The fact that your sub trim is reported at -2.5 dB and the other channels are high positive numbers tells me that the volume control on your sub is too high. Usually, the LFE input bypasses the volume control. But in this case it may not. So, I would suggest turning the volume control down on the sub to the 1/4 point or so and rerunning MultEQ.

There is not setting in the Denon that you can set prior to running MultEQ. All internal settings are ignored during measurement.

Also, after you run MultEQ make sure you go to the subwoofer settings menu and make sure that you don't have LFE+Main selected as the subwoofer mode.

Also, what mode are you in when listening to the Olympics? Is it Dolby Digital or some other DSP simulation mode?

Have you listened to DVDs? That's really the reference. What you are hearing could be due to other factors including bad decoding in your cable/sat box. Many are known to incorrectly decode LFE, particularly over the HDMI port.

Chris

Thanks Chris.

I am using an "unfiltered LFE" input on my sub but I am pretty sure the volume know still has an impact (the LFE control definitely doesn't). So that makes sense. I will re-run.

I do not have LFE+Main, just LFE - since my speakers are all set to small I don't think that has any impact anyway.

When listening to the Olympics I am using straight DD5.1 (no DSP modes).

Have listened to a couple of DVDs and they sound a little better than TV but still a little heavy on the bass.
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post #5780 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vd0 View Post

I have a question about the 80Hz crossover settings that are being suggested to be set within the amplifier for the front speakers. I am looking to buy KEF iQ9 speakers, and when I look at the specs for them it says their crossover frequency is 250Hz - 2.8kHz.

Does this mean that changing the setting within the amp to 80Hz for these speakers will not have the right effect because the lowest the speakers have for their internal crossover is 250Hz? Since that internal value is higher, will putting in a lower value like 80Hz in the amp settings have the right effect?

The KEF iQ9 speakers are a 3 way design. The LF drivers are a pair of 6.5" units that hand over to a uni-Q 6.5" midrange / tweeter at 280 Hz, with the tweeter taking over at 2.8 kHz. This is all part of the internal crossover network of the speakers design.

This is completely separate with what one does with Receiver or pre-pro setup. I do not know the other specs on this KEF model. I did hear it in operation some time back. Typical good KEF sound.

With the two 6.5" LF drivers that is the equivalent of approx. a single 9" driver in cone area.

I believe the low frequency spec is around 40 Hz. Would seem reasonable.

The point is that with or without Audyssey, if you are employing a true sub that has useful output to something close to 20 Hz (or even lower if your lucky, think HSU and others) then letting that sub take on the heavy duty lifting will almost always improve the sound.

With the KEF iQ9 and with room gain it is very possible that the receiver or pre-pro will take the Audyssey measures and decide that the iQ9 is a "full range" or "large", an outdated term as Chris has pointed out more than once, speaker. That would be a mistake.

To sum up, the internal crossover design of a loudspeaker has nothing to do with a choice of crossover to a system's subwoofer. Other considerations determine that.

Hope this helps.

Joe
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post #5781 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Please read the Subwoofer setup section of the handy guide forum Member giomania has compiled. It addresses this excatly.

Bottom line: turn down your sub about 10db on the sub itself.

Thanks. Read that thread a few times before running Auto Setup but I guess I didn't read carefully enough. Thanks.
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post #5782 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerHarley View Post

Do you have to be quiet after the chirps/steps when relocating the microphone for each/next reading?

Is it still recording between each miccrophone relocation step?

Husker

Only for a few milliseconds. After that it's fine.

Chris

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post #5783 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

Chris (Audyssey) stated a few posts ago that TV stations mostly ignore lower frequencies in their mixing, probably because they believe that the sound will only ever be heard through cheap speakers within your TV cabinet. This may be what your hearing.
Listen to a few DVDs with good balanced LFE before deciding what to do with your sub. If your still not happy, maybe go through giomania's Audyssey proceedure to see if you accidently did something that's created the excessive LF.

I guess you are right. I tried a DVD today (MI-3) and not sounded as loud as it did on TV.
I have reduced the sub about 1.5 db for TV and left the original setting for DVD.
Let's see how it goes.
Thank you very much for these inputs.
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post #5784 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JargonGR View Post

Well sound is coming from all the drivers and I am 100% sure the bass drivers are perfect. What I hear a bit muddy is the midrange tones but with Uni-Q and that late at night here I can't pump up the volume and check so tomorrow.

I'm having a similar problem with my Onkyo TX-SR706 (just picked up today ). The speakers work fine as far as I can tell (Boston VR1 and VRC). I've checked and double checked the wiring and everything looks fine. I've got the mic on a tripod and I step out of the room for the auto-calibration and it just says it can't find the Front-Left speaker.

I guess I'll see what you find before I just assume the mic is bad.

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post #5785 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post

The KEF iQ9 speakers are a 3 way design. The LF drivers are a pair of 6.5" units that hand over to a uni-Q 6.5" midrange / tweeter at 280 Hz, with the tweeter taking over at 2.8 kHz. This is all part of the internal crossover network of the speakers design.

This is completely separate with what one does with Receiver or pre-pro setup. I do not know the other specs on this KEF model. I did hear it in operation some time back. Typical good KEF sound.

With the two 6.5" LF drivers that is the equivalent of approx. a single 9" driver in cone area.

I believe the low frequency spec is around 40 Hz. Would seem reasonable.

The point is that with or without Audyssey, if you are employing a true sub that has useful output to something close to 20 Hz (or even lower if your lucky, think HSU and others) then letting that sub take on the heavy duty lifting will almost always improve the sound.

With the KEF iQ9 and with room gain it is very possible that the receiver or pre-pro will take the Audyssey measures and decide that the iQ9 is a "full range" or "large", an outdated term as Chris has pointed out more than once, speaker. That would be a mistake.

To sum up, the internal crossover design of a loudspeaker has nothing to do with a choice of crossover to a system's subwoofer. Other considerations determine that.

Hope this helps.

Joe

Yes, that helps a lot, thank you very much for that detailed response.

I had read the recommendations to set the low pass filter on the subwoofer to the highest value possible and having the crossover set within the amp. Then when I saw crossover values in these KEF speakers I was confusing that to be the same type of thing, but didn't think about it referring to crossovers internal to the speaker and its drivers. After you explained it, it makes so much sense. Thanks again.
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post #5786 of 71921 Old 08-17-2008, 10:02 PM
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Hello Everyone!

I just finished my very first Audyssey calibration on my first real home theater system. While I'll admit I didn't read every post in this thread, I did browse it in it's entirety and it proved very helpful.

My system is as follows.

Sharp Aquos 46'' 1080p LCD
Denon AVR-888
Klipsch RF-35 Towers (L/R)
Klipsch RC-35 Center
Playstation 3
APC H15 Surge Protector/Line Conditioner
Verizon Fios HD Cable

While this is a bedroom set-up, my goal was to build a quality system without breaking the bank and with the capability of adding or upgrading it as needed.

After the Audyssey calibration, my system does sound better! Of course, I'm new to all of this so it sounded good before the calibration, but the improvement achieved by the calibration is quite impressive.

The settings Audyssey applied are as follows:

Speaker Distances/Size/Crossover:
8.9 ft Front R (Large)
8.8 ft Front L (Large)
8.4 ft Center (Small: 60Hz)

Channel Level Check
FR: +0.5 db
FL: +1.0 db
C: -1.5 db

EQ: Flat

Does all this look acceptable?

I did notice everyone recommends setting the mains to Small, but does this also apply without a sub?

I do plan on ordering a subwoofer and surrounds soon. I'm simply still in the research phase on the sub and looking for some good matches for the surrounds. I think I'm off to a good start though. Much better than any Home Theater In A Box I've ever owned, that's for sure!!
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post #5787 of 71921 Old 08-18-2008, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by srsly View Post

I'm having a similar problem with my Onkyo TX-SR706 (just picked up today ). The speakers work fine as far as I can tell (Boston VR1 and VRC). I've checked and double checked the wiring and everything looks fine. I've got the mic on a tripod and I step out of the room for the auto-calibration and it just says it can't find the Front-Left speaker.

I guess I'll see what you find before I just assume the mic is bad.

Could both of you have problems with the internal cross over wiring in the front speakers ? Each driver may be fine, but what if one of the outputs from the cross over is out of phase - I would hear this as a really bad noise immediately, but then again maybe not in the drivers all covered a different frequency range...
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post #5788 of 71921 Old 08-18-2008, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sll0037 View Post

Hello Everyone!

I just finished my very first Audyssey calibration on my first real home theater system. While I'll admit I didn't read every post in this thread, I did browse it in it's entirety and it proved very helpful.


EQ: Flat

Does all this look acceptable?

I did notice everyone recommends setting the mains to Small, but does this also apply without a sub?

I would set EQ to Audyssey while watching movies and to Flat while listening to music but that's the only change I'd make.

Without a sub, you can't set the front L & R speakers to Small and I'm not certain about the centre but I'd leave them as is. You'll need to run the setup again after getting a sub and the settings may change then. Even if the speaker settings don't change to Small after getting a sub, I'd change them to Small anyway at that time.
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post #5789 of 71921 Old 08-18-2008, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srsly View Post

I'm having a similar problem with my Onkyo TX-SR706 (just picked up today ). The speakers work fine as far as I can tell (Boston VR1 and VRC). I've checked and double checked the wiring and everything looks fine. I've got the mic on a tripod and I step out of the room for the auto-calibration and it just says it can't find the Front-Left speaker.

I guess I'll see what you find before I just assume the mic is bad.

Is the front left speaker connected to the correct speaker connection. It may be connected to a pair of terminals that say Front Left but if your Onkyo has provision for 2 pairs of front speakers which can be switched between (Speakers A and B), do you have it connected to the wrong set of terminals for the front speaker pair you've chosen to run?
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post #5790 of 71921 Old 08-18-2008, 01:54 AM
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As long as he's getting chirps he should be fine?

"Unplugging the signal cable is pretty much the ultimate in component isolation. Now if you removed the AC power and it still did it you should look for the little blond girl saying "they're he-re."
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