"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 197 - AVS Forum
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post #5881 of 72498 Old 08-20-2008, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BritInVA View Post


Front crossover is set to 40Hz, sides to 90Hz and Sub at 80Hz.

Is there anything else I need to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Possibly. This will tell you.

Thanks - I started reading from P1 and didn't read backwards - lots of posts in this thread.

So from this looks like I should change my fronts to 60Hz and sub to 120Hz

Will start with that.

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post #5882 of 72498 Old 08-20-2008, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzbass View Post

When would you want to set your front L/R speakers to large? I use two Infinity Beta 40's for the front and when I run Audyssey with my Denon 1909 it's sets them to large. I'm using a sub as well for a 5.1 total. Should I leave them set to large or should I go in and manually set them to small? Everything else seems to be set like I've read is typical.

You should set them to Small at 60 or 80 Hz. The more you give the sub to do the better. Headroom is improved and MultEQ filter resolution in the sub filters is 8x higher so you get better low frequency room correction.

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post #5883 of 72498 Old 08-20-2008, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

You should set them to Small at 60 or 80 Hz. The more you give the sub to do the better. Headroom is improved and MultEQ filter resolution in the sub filters is 8x higher so you get better low frequency room correction.

Chris

Good enough for me...Thanks for the short but informative answer.

HH
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post #5884 of 72498 Old 08-20-2008, 05:56 PM
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warlord260,
I'm going to try tonight and see what happens.

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post #5885 of 72498 Old 08-20-2008, 06:52 PM
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I have a Denon 788 with Klipsch RF-82s as my fronts. After running Audyssey I changed the detected speaker size from large to small and the crossover from 40 to 80. Changing these settings causes the Audyssey indicator light on the Denon's front panel to go from green to red. Am I better off ignoring the red light and changing speaker size and crossover or leaving the detected settings and staying green? Thanks to Chris and everyone else on this thread.

P.S. All other detected settings were left unchanged.

center small Crossover 80
surrounds small Crossover 200
sub LPF 120

"To Live Outside The Law You Must Be Honest"
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post #5886 of 72498 Old 08-20-2008, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzbass View Post

OK. Is there any reason someone would want to have their front L/R speakers set to Large? When I first go the Beta 40's and did the set-up, it had them set at I believe either 40 or 60hz. Now that they've broken in Audyssey sets them to large. They are big speakers and are placed near the wall with the bass being enhanced due to the rear ports.

Setting the speakers to Large turns on double bass if the sub is set to LFE+Main. The Large speakers will then be run full range PLUS everything below their crossover frequency (40 Hz for large speakers if the receiver is a Denon) will also be sent to the sub. If the speakers are set to small they aren't run full range and the sub handles the bass for the speaker below the crossover all on its own.

Double bass is inaccurate. It's not the way the soundtrack was meant to sound. Apart from that, Audyssey won't be providing correction below the speaker's measured in room -3 dB point so while the sub will be getting correction for those very low frequencies, the speaker will not and the speaker's response won't be particularly even due to room acoustics. The sound with the speakers set to Large will certainly have more bass weight but it's impossible to predict just how it will sound since the room's interaction with the speakers at those frequencies will be critical.

You may well like the sound with the speakers set to Large but my feeling is that things definitely sound better with the speakers set to Small though it may well take a few days to adjust to the sound of that setting if you're not used to reasonably accurate bass response.

Bottom line: whether or not you have the speakers set to Large or Small is a matter of personal taste and depends on the sort of sound you prefer. There are no objectively sound reasons for setting the speakers to Large and a lot of objectively sound reasons for setting them to Small, but taste is personal and there's no accounting for it. As far as I know, personal taste is the only reason for keeping speakers that the setup process assesses as Large set to Large rather than changing them to Small.

If you're going to keep them set to Large, experiment with setting the sub to LFE rather than LFE+Main. This will keep the sub from duplicating the below crossover frequency bass from Large speakers which avoids the double bass issue but also leaves the really low frequencies for those speakers without any correction.
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post #5887 of 72498 Old 08-20-2008, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

There are two possible explanations for this:

1) Your front speakers are placed in a location that gives a huge bump at 200 Hz or huge dip a little lower (150 Hz or so). This can happen because of a cabinet or sometimes from the interaction of the speaker with the three walls in the corner. The algorithm sees that and believes that the speaker roll-off is where the downward slope of the bump is.

2) Your front woofers are disconnected or damaged and they are not producing bass. This is easy to check. Sometimes on biwired speakers the connectors on the back come loose, or there may be a disconnected wire somewhere.

Chris

Thanks for replies Chris, Nordo and everybody else. It's been a frusturating evening to say the least. I've toyed with most settings on the receiver... tried setting the fronts to large and disabling the sub, as well as bringing down the crossover for the subs to 80 and 90 Hz to see what the front speakers can do. Still, barely any, if no base at all.

I then took the surrounds (1 woofer, 1 tweeter) off the wall and replaced the front tower speakers (4 woofers, 1 tweeter) with the surrounds.... got a bit more base, but with the frequency range of the surrounds bottoming at 100 HZ, it wasn't impressive I did notice though that the woofer bounced and vibrated a significantly more then it did on the original towers.

I then re-ran Audyssey using the small surrounds as front speakers and it set the crossover frequency for them at 90 (with sub on). I then Unplugged them, plugged the original towers back in, re-ran Audyssey with the sub on and it set the towers all the way to 250!


Does this pretty much conclude that I have defective towers?
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post #5888 of 72498 Old 08-20-2008, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat View Post

I figured as much. It could also be the terrible location of the sub. Until I get into a house I think I'll have to deal with some compromises. I was just hoping there was some way to keep it from overdriving the sub at the low end while keeping the it rocking above there.

Of course I'll eventually upgrade to a bigger/better sub..

In the case of subs, why not just add another identical one instead of bigger/better?? Two subs are much better than one, not just for piston size and the amount of air they move, but also for eliminating alot of the peaks and valleys the Audyssey will attempt to correct.
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post #5889 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 12:40 AM
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vtsteevo: Yes, pretty much. I'd have them checked properly anyway.

"Unplugging the signal cable is pretty much the ultimate in component isolation. Now if you removed the AC power and it still did it you should look for the little blond girl saying "they're he-re."
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post #5890 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzbass View Post

OK. Is there any reason someone would want to have their front L/R speakers set to Large? When I first go the Beta 40's and did the set-up, it had them set at I believe either 40 or 60hz. Now that they've broken in Audyssey sets them to large. They are big speakers and are placed near the wall with the bass being enhanced due to the rear ports.

The question you have to ask yourself is, "what can handle 80Hz down to 40Hz better - your mains or your sub?" Don't look at the specs of your speakers, use your ears. Once you've decided, then set your bass management setup accordingly.

BTW, the LFE in the bass management system for your sub should always be set to 120Hz, and your sub's LPF (low pass filter) on the sub itself should be defeated or set as high as possible.
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post #5891 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by atledreier View Post

vtsteevo: Yes, pretty much. I'd have them checked properly anyway.

Yes, vtsteelo, time to front "The Boss". You know you've been avoiding it. Take a big slug of JB and lay down the law. (maybe give her a big slug of JB before you lay down the law).

Keep in mind you don't have to replace both speakers (unless you want to), just the woofers.

I would try putting a 1.5v battery across your speaker wires and watch the movement of your woofer. There should be quite a distinct movement forward or backward.
A completely blown woofer will not move at all. However, a woofer that has a torn spider or loose voice coil wires will still move.
Probably the best test is to play a stereo piece with good bass through your mains. If you turn the volume up a bit you will quickly get bottoming, or alternatively a very blurry bass. Either will be a sign of a sick woofer.
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post #5892 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtsteevo View Post

Thanks for replies Chris, Nordo and everybody else. It's been a frusturating evening to say the least. I've toyed with most settings on the receiver... tried setting the fronts to large and disabling the sub, as well as bringing down the crossover for the subs to 80 and 90 Hz to see what the front speakers can do. Still, barely any, if no base at all.

I then took the surrounds (1 woofer, 1 tweeter) off the wall and replaced the front tower speakers (4 woofers, 1 tweeter) with the surrounds.... got a bit more base, but with the frequency range of the surrounds bottoming at 100 HZ, it wasn't impressive I did notice though that the woofer bounced and vibrated a significantly more then it did on the original towers.

I then re-ran Audyssey using the small surrounds as front speakers and it set the crossover frequency for them at 90 (with sub on). I then Unplugged them, plugged the original towers back in, re-ran Audyssey with the sub on and it set the towers all the way to 250!


Does this pretty much conclude that I have defective towers?

Yes, if the surrounds-as-mains configuration produces a "bit more base" (sp) than the towers, there is a problem with the towers. And the surround woofer moving "significantly more" than the tower woofers when used as mains would be another sign.
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

the Audyssey curve is somewhere in between: flat to 4 kHz, then -2 dB at 10 kHz, then -6 dB at 20 kHz.

One problem with any calibration system is that the curve used assumes that your hearing is flat from 20Hz to 20kHz. For some people, especially older people who already have hearing loss above 10kHz, further reducing high frequencies may take the life out of the system. Variability in hearing is one reason that one person may like the results with Audyssey and another may not. It is also one reason one person may think speaker X sounds terrific while another thinks speaker X sounds "hot" and yet another thinks speaker X sounds muffled in comparison to speaker Y. One source of dissatisfaction with Audyssey may be such high frequency attentuation. The issue may not be a problem with calibration technique. On the other hand, calibration systems are very valuable for fixing low frequency problems - 200Hz and below - caused by room modes which cause peaks and valleys where the frequency response is significantly ragged and where variability in hearing is minimal. The first step in tuning a room is speaker placement. The second step is treating the room for major flaws using bass traps and absorbtion/diffusion products. The third step is using frequency equalization and time correction for setting phase and smoothing frequency response 200Hz and below. Lastly, smoothing of frequencies above 200Hz should used judiciously rather than religiously to insure that hearing loss is not exacerbated by room correction. This is the area where your ears, and memory of live performances, should be your guide.
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post #5894 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 05:54 AM
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Excellent post, faberryman! I know that Audyssey considers perceptual factors in their design processes, but I am very interested in how they might be addressing the specific issue of hearing loss with aging.
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post #5895 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Swatdude1 View Post

In the case of subs, why not just add another identical one instead of bigger/better?? Two subs are much better than one, not just for piston size and the amount of air they move, but also for eliminating alot of the peaks and valleys the Audyssey will attempt to correct.

I've considered this and may end up doing just that when I move into a house with a bigger room.
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Excellent post, faberryman! I know that Audyssey considers perceptual factors in their design processes, but I am very interested in how they might be addressing the specific issue of hearing loss with aging.

Looking at the bio's from the Audyssey "about us", it appears that most of the major players are no longer youngsters and they must be suffering the aging effects on their ears also (join that old fart's club--huh what did u say? sonny) and I'm sure that they want to hear the best sound from their home systems also. So let's look for some innovation for us with deteriorating hearing.

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Originally Posted by sterryo View Post

Looking at the bio's from the Audyssey "about us", it appears that most of the major players are no longer youngsters and they must be suffering the aging effects on their ears also (join that old fart's club--huh what did u say? sonny) and I'm sure that they want to hear the best sound from their home systems also. So let's look for some innovation for us with deteriorating hearing.


, indeed.
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So let's look for some innovation for us with deteriorating hearing.

A calibration program cannot guess what your hearing frequency response is so no amount of innovation will address the issue automatically. Perhaps offering a choice of several curves to select from and then evaluate would be a step in the right direction.
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I have purchased the Denon 2809 with the assumption that it does have MultEQ XT. Once I get everything setup and figured out I guess I will find a pro close to me that can improve my system even more.

It will be also interesting on how the Audyssey stuff handles my 4 subs! (2 ported, 2 sealed).

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post #5900 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

BTW, the LFE in the bass management system for your sub should always be set to 120Hz

I set LFE LPF to 250Hz, which is the highest setting that my receiver offers. That way, the receiver adds the least amount of roll-off. By comparison, if I set it to 120Hz, then the receiver adds more roll-off, even to frequencies below 120Hz.

Is there a good reason to add more roll-off during playback, considering that a roll-off was already applied during mastering?
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Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

A calibration program cannot guess what your hearing frequency response is so no amount of innovation will address the issue automatically. Perhaps offering a choice of several curves to select from and then evaluate would be a step in the right direction.

The upcoming Pro kit will have the ability to to store and load multiple curves. Coupled with the graphical curve editor this will allow for gee whiz easy customizing of the curves. Short of every Audyssey owner loading their hearing tests into the software, or better yet being fitted with a brain stem HDMI port, this would seem to be the best option.
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Originally Posted by Erik Garci View Post

I set LFE LPF to 250Hz, which is the highest setting that my receiver offers. That way, the receiver adds the least amount of roll-off. By comparison, if I set it to 120Hz, then the receiver adds more roll-off, even to frequencies below 120Hz.

Is there a good reason to add more roll-off during playback, considering that a roll-off was already applied during mastering?

Erik, the advice of the people who are in the movie and A/V industries is that the Low Pass Filter on the Low Frequency Effects channel be set to 120Hz because that is the highest frequency of the channel's content. The filter is not a brick wall, so setting it at that *will* allow 120Hz to pass.
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post #5903 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The filter is not a brick wall, so setting it at that *will* allow 120Hz to pass.

True, it will be passed, but my receiver will make it 5.5dB lower, according to my measurements. So I'm asking if there is a good reason to make it 5.5dB lower during playback.
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Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

One problem with any calibration system is that the curve used assumes that your hearing is flat from 20Hz to 20kHz. For some people, especially older people who already have hearing loss above 10kHz, further reducing high frequencies may take the life out of the system. Variability in hearing is one reason that one person may like the results with Audyssey and another may not. It is also one reason one person may think speaker X sounds terrific while another thinks speaker X sounds "hot" and yet another thinks speaker X sounds muffled in comparison to speaker Y. One source of dissatisfaction with Audyssey may be such high frequency attentuation. The issue may not be a problem with calibration technique. On the other hand, calibration systems are very valuable for fixing low frequency problems - 200Hz and below - caused by room modes which cause peaks and valleys where the frequency response is significantly ragged and where variability in hearing is minimal. The first step in tuning a room is speaker placement. The second step is treating the room for major flaws using bass traps and absorbtion/diffusion products. The third step is using frequency equalization and time correction for setting phase and smoothing frequency response 200Hz and below. Lastly, smoothing of frequencies above 200Hz should used judiciously rather than religiously to insure that hearing loss is not exacerbated by room correction. This is the area where your ears, and memory of live performances, should be your guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Excellent post, faberryman! I know that Audyssey considers perceptual factors in their design processes, but I am very interested in how they might be addressing the specific issue of hearing loss with aging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sterryo View Post

Looking at the bio's from the Audyssey "about us", it appears that most of the major players are no longer youngsters and they must be suffering the aging effects on their ears also (join that old fart's club--huh what did u say? sonny) and I'm sure that they want to hear the best sound from their home systems also. So let's look for some innovation for us with deteriorating hearing.


Hi,

Might I remind you that home theater is not merely a solitary listener planted in the "sweet spot" in the dark. Audyssey is supposed to improve the sound quality of the audience, i.e., a group of listeners, seated in different locations.

So I guess those of us who are older enthusiasts should forget about the listening pleasure of the rest of the audience and adjust the frequency response to suit our hearing? Seems rather ironic to go to the trouble of improving the sound in most seating locations only to destroy it by selfishly catering to our own hearing deficiencies.

Perhaps Audyssey should get into the hearing aide business and tailor a EQ solution to individuals without compromising the sound quality delivered to the entire audience.

Larry
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Originally Posted by Erik Garci View Post

True, it will be passed, but my receiver will make it 5.5dB lower, according to my measurements. So I'm asking if there is a good reason to make it 5.5dB lower during playback.

How about that the film mixer's system is set up that way and the mix is based on that? In fact, it could be argued that you are actually making 120Hz 5.5dB louder than the mixer intended.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi,

Might I remind you that home theater is not merely a solitary listener planted in the "sweet spot" in the dark. Audyssey is supposed to improve the sound quality of the audience, i.e., a group of listeners, seated in different locations.

So I guess those of us who are older enthusiasts should forget about the listening pleasure of the rest of the audience and adjust the frequency response to suit our hearing? Seems rather ironic to go to the trouble of improving the sound in most seating locations only to destroy it by selfishly catering to our own hearing deficiencies.

Perhaps Audyssey should get into the hearing aide business and tailor a EQ solution to individuals without compromising the sound quality delivered to the entire audience.

Larry

I'm going to speculate that the age of the audience has a bell curve distribution around the home theater owner's age.

And in another shameless, but uncompensated, plug for the upcoming Pro kit, the ablity to store and load multiple curves means we could have one for every average age group.
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post #5907 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

How about that the film mixer's system is set up that way and the mix is based on that? In fact, it could be argued that you are actually making 120Hz 5.5dB louder than the mixer intended.

That's possible, but is there any industry standard, or just guesswork?
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post #5908 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I'm going to speculate that the age of the audience has a bell curve distribution around the home theater owner's age.

And in another shameless, but uncompensated, plug for the upcoming Pro kit, the ablity to store and load multiple curves means we could have one for every average age group.

my denon allows me to choose several Audyssey curves, this concept could easily be adjusted to curves for various age groups. Besides those of us with aging ears are usually the ones who foot the bill so is it really all that selfish to have a setting that caters to my specific needs ( i would think not)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sterryo View Post

my denon allows me to choose several Audyssey curves, this concept could easily be adjusted to curves for various age groups. Besides those of us with aging ears are usually the ones who foot the bill so is it really all that selfish to have a setting that caters to my specific needs ( i would think not)

and getting my 14 yo daughter to watch a movie with me(priceless)
hahahahah
have you ever watched teen age chick flicks= painful
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post #5910 of 72498 Old 08-21-2008, 08:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Might I remind you that home theater is not merely a solitary listener planted in the "sweet spot" in the dark.

It is in my house, as is listening to music. My primary point is that variability in hearing, particularly in the high frequencies, may explain why some have expressed dissatisfaction with Audyssey. Rolling off high frequencies from 12mHz to 20mHz by 2db when your hearing is already down who knows how many db may render some of the frequencies inaudible when they were previously audible. In Stereophile-speak, you may lose the air around the instruments or whatever.
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