"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 201 - AVS Forum
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post #6001 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post

Thanks Tocaje..

So if I understand it right, what you have done is first ran Audyssey so as to get sub trim as "0 db" on Denon. Marked this position on the sub for its volume knob. Then you turned back (to lower side) this physical volume knob on the sub to your liking.

Could you please confirm this? I am about to re-run the Audyssey and would like to follow the steps towards "Audio Heaven"

Curious as well. I re-ran Auto Setup on my 1909 to get the sub as close to 0 as possible. Then I thought people said the best way to reduce the bass is to manually adjust the sub trim through the Denon (which you can set separately for each input). However, whenever I get really boomy bass, even tweaking the SW trim to -12.0 db (the minimum) doesn't seem to help much (if at all). So I settled on basically leaving the SW at -4.0 (vs. the Auto Setup level of +1.0), which seemed somewhere in the middle of the range. But it definitely hasn't fixed the boomy bass.

Otherwise I love the sound - amazing surround sound details.
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post #6002 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

A cheap camera tripod would be best. The threading on the mic is made for this. The stool and stack of books is greatly affecting the measurements and should be avoided at all cost.

Chris

Ok thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Since the consumer mics shipped with receivers have the same threading as camera bodies do, a photography tripod makes an easy to find solution.

Even better is a pro-sound mic-stand that would hold the mic over seats.

See choices:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/catego...cessories.html

Use this adapter to mount the Mic to the boom:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Clip_with.html

You will need to find a 1.5" long knurled 5/16" thread knob to thread through this into the Mic to hold it on. A search on hardware sites should yield something.

there are also other mic adapters that might include angled adjsutment AND a 5/16 thread already. Look around.

That adapter doesn't look like it would fit the mic,or am i looking at it wrong?

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post #6003 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sterryo View Post

would you recommend stacking or side by side

From a delay viewpoint that would be the same thing. But I would first recommend asking the manufacturer to explain further about how this setup gets around group delay issues. Perhaps they have reasons for recommending split subs.

Chris

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post #6004 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I'm not sure I understand how this would work. The frequencies below 40 Hz will be arriving later than the frequencies above 40 Hz. That is called group delay and it can be very audible, particularly with bass drum or bass guitar that will appear smeared as parts of it arrive from two different locations. If you must have two boxes, then the only way to blend them properly is to have them time aligned to each other. That can be done by digital delay or by physically placing them in the same location.

Can you time align them manually if at least one has a continuously variable phase control? (Unfortunately that won't help with Hsu subs that tend to have only a switch for 0 or 180 degrees.)
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post #6005 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Can you time align them manually if at least one has a continuously variable phase control? (Unfortunately that won't help with Hsu subs that tend to have only a switch for 0 or 180 degrees.)

Well then I might not get another HSU, how do you fine tune the time alignment with a variable phase control? The only tool I have is a SPL meter, would a BFD do the trick and if so how would I get the results I would need. Any assistance on this would be greatly appreciated......
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post #6006 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

From a delay viewpoint that would be the same thing. But I would first recommend asking the manufacturer to explain further about how this setup gets around group delay issues. Perhaps they have reasons for recommending split subs.

Chris

Well if I could generate more sales I would always recommend split subs (increased revenue is always a strong motivator)....
But not to knock Dr. Hsu as he was responding to my placement question ( I went to him first for assistance( and like the help I receive from Chris, I also appreciate the time that a manufacturer takes to answer individual questions), It seems that customer service is not dead in the HIFI world ( except for Onkyo)
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post #6007 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sterryo View Post

Well if I could generate more sales I would always recommend split subs (increased revenue is always a strong motivator)....
But not to knock Dr. Hsu as he was responding to my placement question ( I went to him first for assistance( and like the help I receive from Chris, I also appreciate the time that a manufacturer takes to answer individual questions), It seems that customer service is not dead in the HIFI world ( except for Onkyo)

Absolutely. It's because they make good products that I recommended checking with them again. I am sure there must be a reason that this is a split box design.

And to answer the other question: No, it's impossible to time align with a phase control knob. That only acts at one frequency and the misalignment is at multiple frequencies.

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post #6008 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by srsly View Post

DING DING DING.

Swapped the speakers as Nordo suggested and it went through the whole test this time unable to find the right speaker. Looks like I know what to do from here. Thanks everyone.

great news and a follow up in case anyone is having a similar problem still.

i took it in to where i bought the speakers since they're still under warranty (w00t Boston 5yr warranty) and had the dude check them out. he hooked them up to a demo system they had going and listened for a bit and couldn't find anything wrong with them. nothing obvious that suggested crossover problems or blown drivers since it sounded like there was a full range of sound. he suggested unplugging the receiver to reset the computer inside and if that didn't work maybe it's bum receiver since there didn't appear to be anything wrong with the speakers.

i got home and unplugged the receiver while i was wiring the speakers back in and then re-ran the Audyssey setup. it worked. i'm thinking either the brain just needed a reset or i may have had a stray wire grounding something out. i made sure to check my wiring for stray touches but didn't see any so i dunno. in any case it's working now and was able to find all my speakers. sounds great

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post #6009 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sterryo View Post

Well then I might not get another HSU, how do you fine tune the time alignment with a variable phase control? The only tool I have is a SPL meter, would a BFD do the trick and if so how would I get the results I would need. Any assistance on this would be greatly appreciated......

Unfortunately the BFD doesn't have a programmable delay, which is a pity because it can EQ two subs independently, so it would be nice to be able to time align them as well. But somewhat more expensive units do have delay capability (can't comment on them as I only own a BFD).

I was assuming that the phase control on a sub is effectively changing the delay on the signal just as if you changed the distance setting in your receiver. So first you can set the distance of one sub with the receiver, then with an SPL meter manually get the other sub in phase with the first one. To get the two subs in phase play a sine wave test tone at the crossover frequency (40Hz on your case), and adjust the phase control until you get maximum SPL at the listening position.

As Chris pointed out this isn't a true time delay that acts the same on all frequencies, but I would assume it's better than nothing. You certainly want to make sure the two subs are not out of phase at the crossover or they will cancel each other.

Since Hsu is pushing the concept of one sub for low bass and another for mid bass, it seems a pity they include a way to time align them, especially as they recommend the mid-bass module be close to the listener (for maximum impact) while the low-bass sub be in a different location (e.g. a front corner). Having a second sub in the near field (e.g. right behind your seat) does produce an interesting effect, you feel it much more. And you can always add a separate delay unit if you want to.
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post #6010 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Absolutely. It's because they make good products that I recommended checking with them again. I am sure there must be a reason that this is a split box design.

And to answer the other question: No, it's impossible to time align with a phase control knob. That only acts at one frequency and the misalignment is at multiple frequencies.

Chris

they make great subs, I've owned 4 of their subs so far.....
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post #6011 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 11:07 PM
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Hmm, if there is someone from Audessy here, how about telling us what the correction windows are for high and low frequencies, etc.

I wonder how this matches Linkwitz's approach, for instance.

James D. (jj) Johnston
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post #6012 of 72494 Old 08-23-2008, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Rob,

As far as I know, the Iasys system is based on an implementation of the TDS theory proposed by Dick Heyser several years ago. Audyssey room measurement algorithms are based on an impulse response approach and focus on methods for combining multiple measurements to generate a room representative FIR filter for each channel.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I see your point.

Iasys depends on gathering data in orthogonal (thanks again, jj) domains (time, energy, freq, etc. (whoops, etcetera not "energy time curve" )) within the limits of the installed environment (ambient noise, loudspeaker bandwidth and power limits, and amp power limits).

The most interesting feature if Iasys is the ability to determine "centroids" of all the measured data and adapt the measuring limits "on the fly"; reducing measurement time and improving granularity of the data by re-ranging (the notorious fuzzy logic part of Iasys).

The resulting data didn't give distance data for the sake of adjusting the difference between drivers to "repair" the situation of listener offset in the stereo field, but rather to allow for alignment between drivers in a common channel (woofs, mids, tweets) as well as for rejection of everything except the first arrival cluster, insuring the ability to descriminate between that which is non-minimum phase (not fixable with eq) and minimum phase (fixable with complementary eq).

In your case it seems that you've taken a different tack..."to generate a room representative FIR filter for each channel". I'm assuming that this is from the measurement microphone's perspective, encompassing the room as it is excited by the individual loudspeakers.

If the assumption is correct, is this a safe model to employ in a non-minimum phase environment?

Thank you for answering,

rob r.

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post #6013 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 01:32 AM
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I am getting a seperate amp soon and will use my 905 as a pre-pro. Do I need to re-run Audyssey in this case? Or will the results from running with just the 905 be the same as if using as a pre-pro with a seperate amp?
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post #6014 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 01:59 AM
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I would imagine that the relativities of the settings for the speaker channels will be the same so your current setup should work to a large degree.

The sensitivity of the amp may differ from that of the Onkyo's amp stages so you may get different SPLs for the same pre-amp output level and that could put the overall volume levels out. They may be louder or softer than what you currently get with the Onkyo. Since the sub isn't driven from the amp, that would mean the balance between the sub and the speakers will change so you should run setup again in order to keep that balance correct.
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post #6015 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Since the consumer mics shipped with receivers have the same threading as camera bodies do, a photography tripod makes an easy to find solution.

Even better is a pro-sound mic-stand that would hold the mic over seats.

See choices:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/catego...cessories.html

Use this adapter to mount the Mic to the boom:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Clip_with.html

You will need to find a 1.5" long knurled 5/16" thread knob to thread through this into the Mic to hold it on. A search on hardware sites should yield something.

there are also other mic adapters that might include angled adjsutment AND a 5/16 thread already. Look around.

You are on the right track. A microphone stand is the best because a mic boom arm is needed to position the mic where a listener's ears would be. And to adapt the mic stand to the camera mount one needs something like this. And this adapter has the flexibility needed for those of us who made slight orientation changes between speaker tests to ensure grazing.
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post #6016 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post

Hmm, if there is someone from Audessy here, how about telling us what the correction windows are for high and low frequencies, etc.

I wonder how this matches Linkwitz's approach, for instance.

Hi JJ,

The correction resolution varies continuously as a function of frequency. It starts with the highest resolution in the low frequencies where most of the problems occur and then gradually relaxes as it gets to higher frequencies.

Chris

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post #6017 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob r. View Post

Hi Chris,

I see your point.

Iasys depends on gathering data in orthogonal (thanks again, jj) domains (time, energy, freq, etc. (whoops, etcetera not "energy time curve" )) within the limits of the installed environment (ambient noise, loudspeaker bandwidth and power limits, and amp power limits).

The most interesting feature if Iasys is the ability to determine "centroids" of all the measured data and adapt the measuring limits "on the fly"; reducing measurement time and improving granularity of the data by re-ranging (the notorious fuzzy logic part of Iasys).

The resulting data didn't give distance data for the sake of adjusting the difference between drivers to "repair" the situation of listener offset in the stereo field, but rather to allow for alignment between drivers in a common channel (woofs, mids, tweets) as well as for rejection of everything except the first arrival cluster, insuring the ability to descriminate between that which is non-minimum phase (not fixable with eq) and minimum phase (fixable with complementary eq).

In your case it seems that you've taken a different tack..."to generate a room representative FIR filter for each channel". I'm assuming that this is from the measurement microphone's perspective, encompassing the room as it is excited by the individual loudspeakers.

If the assumption is correct, is this a safe model to employ in a non-minimum phase environment?

Thank you for answering,

rob r.

Hi Rob,

MultEQ uses fuzzy logic in the following way: Multiple room measurements are taken and then a set of pattern recognition rules is applied to group them into clusters. After each cluster is formed the membership functions are calculated (these assign a probability of membership to each measurement and how "well" it fits within each cluster) and then a representative response is created for each cluster. The benefit of this approach is that the representative responses in each cluster contain the appropriate weighting based on the similarity of the acoustical problems--the assumption being that more common problems are more serious. The representative responses are then clustered again to produce a single room representation for each speaker and then an FIR filter is created that inverts that weighted representation.

Coming up with this method took about 5 years of research at my lab in the USC Electrical Engineering Dept. What we found very early in this work was that a single position measurement is hopeless in providing enough information to a room correction system. There is a common misconception that if you have one listener (e.g. a mixer) then you should put the mic next to them. Our work showed that this may provide some smoothness in the high frequencies (some times), but often makes things worse in the low frequencies. So we focused on methods that allow us to combine multiple measurements and our algorithms are based on these findings.

Simple averaging of measurements can offer some improvement over the single position case, but can also get you into trouble for two reasons: (1) it is an RMS average of the magnitude responses and thus ignores any time domain effects and (2) it assumes, by definition, that each response is weighted the same when in fact certain problems are clearly more important than others.

After figuring out how to combine measurements, we worked on the measurement process itself. Pink noise and other stationary signals are limited to frequency response results only. They are basically time blind. So, we decided to focus on an impulse response method using a deterministic signal that has the same spectrum as pink noise, but is based on a time domain representation. Once the signal is collected from each measurement, an analysis is performed to separate the minimum phase components from the excess phase components and each are treated differently for the exact reasons you mention in your message. Mourjopoulos and others have shown that the contribution of the excess phase is directly related to the reverberant field and requires different methods from what the minimum phase components need.

Chris

PS. I have read your AES papers (and JJ's) and I think there is great overlap in our research interests.

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post #6018 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

You are on the right track. A microphone stand is the best because a mic boom arm is needed to position the mic where a listener's ears would be. And to adapt the mic stand to the camera mount one needs something like this. And this adapter has the flexibility needed for those of us who made slight orientation changes between speaker tests to ensure grazing.

Can't i just use any regular old tripod?
i mean thanks to the both of you and audyssey for some tips but....
and i was thinking of heading down to ether best buy, or a music store today and getting a cheap one.

home theater addict
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post #6019 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Can't i just use any regular old tripod?
i mean thanks to the both of you and audyssey for some tips but....
and i was thinking of heading down to ether best buy, or a music store today and getting a cheap one.

If you can get a camera tripod to hold the mic where it needs to be, then it will work. A mic boom does that oh so easily.
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post #6020 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Can't i just use any regular old tripod?
i mean thanks to the both of you and audyssey for some tips but....
and i was thinking of heading down to ether best buy, or a music store today and getting a cheap one.

Yes. Any simple tripod will do. The less bulky the better.

Chris

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post #6021 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

This is a warning to Audyssey users.

I have run Audyssey several times and had never been really impressed. I was running it again last night after adding another sub to my 7.1 system.
THIS time I checked Re-EQ and Late Night Function. Both are supposed to be OFF by default. However, I found them ON.
Turned them off and suddenly I had wonderful dynamic balanced sound. I didn't even bother to adjust my volume trims after running Audyssey.

Audyssey is great. Just make sure everthing else is correctly set up.

Can somebody explain this further? it has me scared RE-EQ? where can i find that?
i have the 705.......oh boy.

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post #6022 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 11:49 AM
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"A microphone stand is the best because a mic boom arm is needed to position the mic where a listener's ears would be. "

You can do that with a camera tripod by setting uneven leg lengths to angle the mike over where you want it.

Noah
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post #6023 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Can somebody explain this further? it has me scared RE-EQ? where can i find that?
i have the 705.......oh boy.

Re-EQ is part of THX processing. It applies a high frequency roll-off that is intended to translate the mix from the dubbing stage to the home. It is engaged when you are in THX mode only. Onkyo automatically switches to the Audyssey Flat mode when you turn THX on and so everything is as it should be. Perhaps Nordo has a personal preference for a bumped high frequency region and hence his earlier comment. But the correct reference curve when in THX mode is achieved with Audyssey Flat and Re-EQ on. In any case, there is a Re-EQ button on your remote that allows you to turn it on and off.

Having Night Mode engaged is a bigger problem. It is an antiquated implementation of a simple single-band compressor that adds pumping artifacts and takes the life out of the mix.

Chris

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post #6024 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"A microphone stand is the best because a mic boom arm is needed to position the mic where a listener's ears would be. "

You can do that with a camera tripod by setting uneven leg lengths to angle the mike over where you want it.

That is true to a certain point, at which time the tripod becomes unstable.
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post #6025 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Re-EQ is part of THX processing. It applies a high frequency roll-off that is intended to translate the mix from the dubbing stage to the home. It is engaged when you are in THX mode only. Onkyo automatically switches to the Audyssey Flat mode when you turn THX on and so everything is as it should be. Perhaps Nordo has a personal preference for a bumped high frequency region and hence his earlier comment. But the correct reference curve when in THX mode is achieved with Audyssey Flat and Re-EQ on. In any case, there is a Re-EQ button on your remote that allows you to turn it on and off.

Having Night Mode engaged is a bigger problem. It is an antiquated implementation of a simple single-band compressor that adds pumping artifacts and takes the life out of the mix.

Chris

Ok thanks now i have another question( i dont know why i even bothered touching the damn thing anyway)
is the re-eq off by default? i cant remember what it was on before i touched it

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post #6026 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

You are on the right track. A microphone stand is the best because a mic boom arm is needed to position the mic where a listener's ears would be. And to adapt the mic stand to the camera mount one needs something like this. And this adapter has the flexibility needed for those of us who made slight orientation changes between speaker tests to ensure grazing.

For those who would like to know, I use the following method, so that the mic is at exact position and ear height.

1. Any available camera tripod.
2. A long enough plastic or wood strip. (I used on the wall plastic casing from lowes which was lying around).
3. Tie this long strip to the tripod top using velcro or twine.
4. You can now set the tripod on the ground in front of the couch which the strip extended towards backrest of couch.
5. Adjust the height of the tripod for ear height position.
6. You can mark the 2 feet distance positions on this strip for moving the mic exactly.
7. Just rest the mic on this strip, first on near to backrest (this being main listening position), run the measurement, move it towards front of the couch at your 2 feet marker and take measurement for the second postion.
8. Repeat above for remaining four/six positions.

Hope this helps.
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post #6027 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post

For those who would like to know, I use the following method, so that the mic is at exact position and ear height.

1. Any available camera tripod.
2. A long enough plastic or wood strip. (I used on the wall plastic casing from lowes which was lying around).
3. Tie this long strip to the tripod top using velcro or twine.
4. You can now set the tripod on the ground in front of the couch which the strip extended towards backrest of couch.
5. Adjust the height of the tripod for ear height position.
6. You can mark the 2 feet distance positions on this strip for moving the mic exactly.
7. Just rest the mic on this strip, first on near to backrest (this being main listening position), run the measurement, move it towards front of the couch at your 2 feet marker and take measurement for the second postion.
8. Repeat above for remaining four/six positions.

Hope this helps.

Ingenuity and materials like this on hand will trump raw cash outlays for fancy gear every time. If I had not happened to already have the mic stand and boom, I would have taken a route like this.
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post #6028 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post

For those who would like to know, I use the following method, so that the mic is at exact position and ear height.

1. Any available camera tripod.
2. A long enough plastic or wood strip. (I used on the wall plastic casing from lowes which was lying around).
3. Tie this long strip to the tripod top using velcro or twine.
4. You can now set the tripod on the ground in front of the couch which the strip extended towards backrest of couch.
5. Adjust the height of the tripod for ear height position.
6. You can mark the 2 feet distance positions on this strip for moving the mic exactly.
7. Just rest the mic on this strip, first on near to backrest (this being main listening position), run the measurement, move it towards front of the couch at your 2 feet marker and take measurement for the second postion.
8. Repeat above for remaining four/six positions.

Hope this helps.

I dont have any couches in my room just a bed so would i still need a boom?
i can just put the tripod with the mic on top in the middle in front of my tv right?

home theater addict
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post #6029 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I dont have any couches in my room just a bed so would i still need a boom?
i can just put the tripod with the mic on top in the middle in front of my tv right?

Yes. You do not need the boom.

The steps I mentioned are mainly useful for the couch/sofa seating. Because it's almost impossible to keep the tripod on couch and make it leveled at exact ear position (not height-wise, but horizontally). It invariably be in the middel of the seat.
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post #6030 of 72494 Old 08-24-2008, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Ingenuity and materials like this on hand will trump raw cash outlays for fancy gear every time. If I had not happened to already have the mic stand and boom, I would have taken a route like this.

Thanks.

Thought, it would be helpful for folks getting their mic lined up correctly.
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