"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 72565 Old 01-12-2008, 11:20 PM
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While waiting for my OP SC 855, I have pondered about the following, which I have not seen mentioned in this or other threads about room EQ.

1. Most common building materials and furniture are subject to the daily and hourly variations in the environment as are some of out sealed speaker systems. There are numerous reports of variations in room equalizations from run to run when there is no noise to affect the measurements. Has the affect of moisture on drywall (sheet rock), other wall materials, carpets, and furniture been considered? Is it a dry heating season? Is it raining outside? Is someone cooking? Did someone take a shower? Has the "swamp cooler" been running? All of these conditions can result in significant variations in the moisture content of the walls and furniture, which can affect the material density and audio properties. Atmospheric pressure variations may also affect the response of sealed speakers in a very short time as weather fronts move through. Seems to be more than a few variables that could affect the room EQ results from run to run even over a short time period.

2. I have yet to see anyone mention the acoustic properties of the 110-250 pound listener. In the acoustic calibration of large music halls, the audience is simulated using acoustic dummies in each seat. Should we TH calibrators be doing the same for our 1-8 seat home theaters during the calibrations? Maybe we should calibrate with actual people silently sitting in each normally used position. Now where do we place that mike at ear level? Or possibly pillows and cushions could substitute.

Thoughts, comments?
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post #632 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Dale,

The Audyssey Pro installation has several benefits. One is the fact that the installer uses an individually-calibrated mic (by serial number) as compared to the bulk calibration that we do for the mics included with the receivers. Another benefit is that the installer has the ability to take more measurements (up to 32 for challenging rooms) and also to select from more target curves that what is found in the built-in version.



Regards,
Chris

Chris,

I think the OP was looking to have pro calibration of the Integra-based internal version. Is it possible to use the pro calibration kit on the internal version? I would think not, having gone through the process on the stand-alone unit.

Bill
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post #633 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_Morr View Post

Chris,

I think the OP was looking to have pro calibration of the Integra-based internal version. Is it possible to use the pro calibration kit on the internal version? I would think not, having gone through the process on the stand-alone unit.

Bill

The 8.8 is Audyssey "Pro" capable, just Like the Integra 9.8 I'm doing my second "Pro" calibration on right now.
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post #634 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

The 8.8 is Audyssey "Pro" capable, just Like the Integra 9.8 I'm doing my second "Pro" calibration on right now.

Is that just a matter of forking over some more $$$ for software and (hopefully) documentation, or does one need some certification/licensing?

What happened on your "first" calibration.
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post #635 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Is that just a matter of forking over some more $$$ for software and (hopefully) documentation, or does one need some certification/licensing?

What happened on your "first" calibration.

Yes it requires a certifed installer. You need to buy the license for the specific unit and have it calibrated with the Installers kit and software which runs on a lap-top.

As to why I'm doing a second calibration, basically when I ran it the first time I used the same curve, with mid-range compensation turned off, I used with the stand alone SEQ I had before without trying any other options.

The results I got ended up being slightly different so I want to try with the MRC and some other curve options.
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post #636 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 01:54 PM
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I noticed that Chris (and others) refer to selecting from a range of "Target Curves" after running the MultiEQ of Audyssey that is integrated in your receiver. As Chris syas, the Pro standalone Audyssey has many curves to choose from, but the integrated version still has several.

I have an Onkyo 805 and cannot find any selection of curves or settings that I can pick from, apart from the ability to manually vary a single set of results, and also the option (in another area of the menu) to turn the Audyssey settings off.

Does anyone know if the Onkyo has the options of picking from a range of Audyssey settings?
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post #637 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 02:07 PM
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My surrounds and backs are mounted 1.2m (4') above the ear level. They are aimed down toward the lisening area but, because of the limitations of the mounting brackets, are actually aimed approximately 0.45m (18") above the ear level. A few years ago this was one of the recommendations for mounting surrounds.

My worry is that in some of my testing positions within the listening area, the mic, even when pointed at the speaker (for grazing reception), can be up to 60deg off the axis of the drivers in the nearest surround speaker. Chris has already mentioned elsewhere that being so far off axis can cause Audyssey to boost the high freq of the offending surround to compensate for what it thinks is a deficiency of high freq from the speaker. Chris has suggested to not test in that position, but the test location is within the listening area.

Anyone have any suggestions?
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post #638 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 02:33 PM
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I am confused by some results of my testing. Audyssey sets the Xovers of my mains (my best speakers) at 150Hz, my centre at 60Hz, my surrounds at 60Hz, and my backs at 150Hz. The resultant trims are all within 1db of each other.
All speakers are high quality 2 way direct firing speakers in sealed cabinets. The surrounds and backs are all identical. All speakers use high quality Vifa drivers and individually designed quality Xovers. The room is a dedicated HT with full range absorbers at the first reflection points of the fronts. The room has thick carpet and soft furnishings.

I am confused by the enormous difference in the results. I tested at 8 locations within the listening area, all well away from walls. In all locations the mic had a clear view of the tested speaker with no nearby refective surfaces, etc.

Can anyone suggest what I should do? Chris advises not lowering any of the resultant Xovers.
If I keep the Xovers as they are, what Xover should I set the sub on?
Thanks
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post #639 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

snip..
Does anyone know if the Onkyo has the options of picking from a range of Audyssey settings?

The Onkyo receiver automatically selects the Audyssey Reference curve (slight rolloff at 10 kHz and a little steeper out to 20 kHz). When the receiver is put in THX mode then the Audyssey Flat curve is automatically selected in order to allow THX re-eq to operate as it was intended. Other manufacturers decided to allow the user to switch between Audyssey Reference and Audyssey Flat manually, but Onkyo does it automatically.

Regards,
Chris

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post #640 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

I am confused by some results of my testing. Audyssey sets the Xovers of my mains (my best speakers) at 150Hz, my centre at 60Hz, my surrounds at 60Hz, and my backs at 150Hz. The resultant trims are all within 1db of each other.
All speakers are high quality 2 way direct firing speakers in sealed cabinets. The surrounds and backs are all identical. All speakers use high quality Vifa drivers and individually designed quality Xovers. The room is a dedicated HT with full range absorbers at the first reflection points of the fronts. The room has thick carpet and soft furnishings.

I am confused by the enormous difference in the results. I tested at 8 locations within the listening area, all well away from walls. In all locations the mic had a clear view of the tested speaker with no nearby refective surfaces, etc.

Can anyone suggest what I should do? Chris advises not lowering any of the resultant Xovers.
If I keep the Xovers as they are, what Xover should I set the sub on?
Thanks

Hi,

Having identical speakers does not at all guarantee that the -3 dB rolloff point will be the same. The reason is that their placement in the room greatly influences their low frequency behavior. I would not be too concerned about this unless there is something that you are hearing that is wrong. The values you list sound reasonable, but you could also lower them if you believe your speakers are rated to lower frequencies.

Regards,
Chris

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post #641 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The Onkyo receiver automatically selects the Audyssey Reference curve (slight rolloff at 10 kHz and a little steeper out to 20 kHz). When the receiver is put in THX mode then the Audyssey Flat curve is automatically selected in order to allow THX re-eq to operate as it was intended. Other manufacturers decided to allow the user to switch between Audyssey Reference and Audyssey Flat manually, but Onkyo does it automatically.

Regards,
Chris


Chris, thanks for all the info you have been providing. One question, I have a 4306, so it allows Audyssey, Flat, Front & Manual settings. I understand that selecting Audyssey puts in a HF roll-off to compensate for the brightness in movies. In your opinion, when listening to music, either multi-channel or two channel, would the user still select Audyssey or is the HF roll-off not as critical with music as it is with movies?

BTW, Audyssey does an amazing job for me with increasing the sense of envelopment, equalizing the bass, and integrating the speakers. Turning it off after using it all this time and it seems that soundfield collapses.

Thanks
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post #642 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_Morr View Post

Chris,

I think the OP was looking to have pro calibration of the Integra-based internal version. Is it possible to use the pro calibration kit on the internal version? I would think not, having gone through the process on the stand-alone unit.

Bill

The Audyssey Pro calibration is only possible on products that have special firmware that allows them to talk to the Audyssey PC software application. You can check which products have this capability on our website, under Audyssey-Enabled products. Look for the ones that are installer-ready (from Denon, Integra, NAD, Crestron).

Regards,
Chris

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post #643 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdS View Post

Chris, thanks for all the info you have been providing. One question, I have a 4306, so it allows Audyssey, Flat, Front & Manual settings. I understand that selecting Audyssey puts in a HF roll-off to compensate for the brightness in movies. In your opinion, when listening to music, either multi-channel or two channel, would the user still select Audyssey or is the HF roll-off not as critical with music as it is with movies?

BTW, Audyssey does an amazing job for me with increasing the sense of envelopment, equalizing the bass, and integrating the speakers. Turning it off after using it all this time and it seems that soundfield collapses.

Thanks

Hi,

It's very hard to answer this because the music industry does not follow any consistent mixing standards. In movie production the target curve during mixing and reproduction in movie theaters is a standard. The Audyssey curve helps translate that for the home. But for music you will have to experiment. Please keep in mind that Manual is not a supported Audyssey mode. It is a simple parametric equalizer with a few bands. Audyssey is turned off when you select that.

Regards,
Chris

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post #644 of 72565 Old 01-13-2008, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi,

It's very hard to answer this because the music industry does not follow any consistent mixing standards. In movie production the target curve during mixing and reproduction in movie theaters. The Audyssey curve helps translate that for the home. But for music you will have to experiment. Please keep in mind that Manual is not a supported Audyssey mode. It is a simple parametric equalizer with a few bands. Audyssey is turned off when you select that.

Regards,
Chris

Thanks Chris, I mostly use Audyssey for movies and select Flat for music, though I understand your point about music not being mixed to any standards. Levels, bass, highs tend to be all over the place depending on the disc you're listening to.
-Ed
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post #645 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 12:36 AM
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Just bought the ONKYO PR-SC885 preamp replacing Aragon Stage One.

I followeed exactly the instructions , I did 8 points calibration, and I 'm completely unsatisfied with the result.

The bass has gone for real. I have to admit The dedicated room I have, is completely sound proofed with no reflections. That means that it is acoustically dead! This may confuse the mic (is it reliable?) and make wrong measurements. The second strange thing is that the speakers levels after calibration are strange enough: L,R speakers at -12db, Center at -8 etc... all speakers are in minus db!! i don't know what might be wrong but I prefer the sound with the Audyssey Off.
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post #646 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The Onkyo receiver automatically selects the Audyssey Reference curve (slight rolloff at 10 kHz and a little steeper out to 20 kHz). When the receiver is put in THX mode then the Audyssey Flat curve is automatically selected in order to allow THX re-eq to operate as it was intended. Other manufacturers decided to allow the user to switch between Audyssey Reference and Audyssey Flat manually, but Onkyo does it automatically.

Regards,
Chris

Incidentally, you can hear what Flat sounds like on the Onkyos by picking a THX mode and then hitting the RE-EQ button to turn off the THX rolloff. However, this setting isn't persistent, so you would have to hit RE-EQ every time you turn on the receiver if that ends up being your preferred mode of listening.

"Never believe any quote you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
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post #647 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasos View Post

Just bought the ONKYO PR-SC885 preamp replacing Aragon Stage One.

... The second strange thing is that the speakers levels after calibration are strange enough: L,R speakers at -12db, Center at -8 etc... all speakers are in minus db!! ...

It sounds like you could have started with your subwoofer volume turned up too high on setup. Try lowering the volume on the sub and running it again.
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post #648 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasos View Post

Just bought the ONKYO PR-SC885 preamp replacing Aragon Stage One.

I followeed exactly the instructions , I did 8 points calibration, and I 'm completely unsatisfied with the result.

The bass has gone for real. I have to admit The dedicated room I have, is completely sound proofed with no reflections. That means that it is acoustically dead! This may confuse the mic (is it reliable?) and make wrong measurements. The second strange thing is that the speakers levels after calibration are strange enough: L,R speakers at -12db, Center at -8 etc... all speakers are in minus db!! i don't know what might be wrong but I prefer the sound with the Audyssey Off.

Trust me, your room is not acoustically dead; unless you have a LOT of bass traps, you *do* have reflections - at bass frequencies. And if you are accustomed to hearing your room with the peaks from the reflections reinforcing certain frequencies, then hearing your room/system without those, i.e. flat, could be interpreted as "gone."

From experience, hearing truly flat bass for the first time can easily cause the comment "my bass is gone."

Just my $.02.
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post #649 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 12:47 PM
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Chris,

I am using the Audyssey EQ with a Denon AV-A1XV (european AVR-5805) using firmware version 9, so the problem with Audyssey not equalizing the sub properly should be fixed (this was done in version 3).
I have room-nodes at 34 and 38 hz of about +12 db, on both the sub and the mains L+R.
I expected Audyssey to temper or completely remove these large room resonances, but it seems not to touch them at all!
I did an RTA measurement with Audyssey off and Audyssey flat, but the 2 peaks are almost the same.
Is this normal, or is there any specific reason Audyssey did not attempt to correct these large peaks?
Is there a way to tame those peaks using Audyssey?
I did several 8 position measurements of the main listening position, 1 meter left, 1 meter right, another 3 about 1.5 meter in front of the first 3 positions and a final 2 about half way between the first and second sets.

Adri.
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post #650 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The Onkyo receiver automatically selects the Audyssey Reference curve (slight rolloff at 10 kHz and a little steeper out to 20 kHz). When the receiver is put in THX mode then the Audyssey Flat curve is automatically selected in order to allow THX re-eq to operate as it was intended. Other manufacturers decided to allow the user to switch between Audyssey Reference and Audyssey Flat manually, but Onkyo does it automatically.

Regards,
Chris

Thanks Chris
BTW, instead of you wasting so much of your valuable time on forums, do you have a web site with FAQs and hints, etc for the integrated Audyssey?
Don't get me wrong. We all really really appreciate all your help and your patience.
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post #651 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepysurf View Post

Chris, for those of us with in-ceiling surrounds, in many cases (certainly mine) the mic is nearly pointing directly at those ceiling speakers during some measurements. Should we try to quickly alter the mic angle for those measurements (i.e. right after the front speaker tones), or are some measurements still being recorded after the previous front speaker warble tone?

Unless your speakers are directly above the mic, I would not worry about the angle of the surrounds too much. Hopefully, the surrounds are slightly behind you and so they see the mic at a slight angle. Maybe not grazing angle, but still probably good enough to not worry about moving the mic during calibration.

Chris,
Could you answer this question from the perspective of those of us who DO have speakers directly above some of the seating positions? Is it fair to assume that there are no measurements during the silence between test tones? Is it fair to take from your "unless" comment that perhaps we SHOULD try to adjust the angle of the mic during the quite periods to attempt to get more of 90° angle to the speaker? Some of us do have very challenging rooms that prevent more ideal layouts. We may be the ones that Audyssey appeals to most.

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post #652 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Chris,
Could you answer this question from the perspective of those of us who DO have speakers directly above some of the seating positions? Is it fair to assume that there are no measurements during the silence between test tones? Is it fair to take from your "unless" comment that perhaps we SHOULD try to adjust the angle of the mic during the quite periods to attempt to get more of 90° angle to the speaker? Some of us do have very challenging rooms that prevent more ideal layouts. We may be the ones that Audyssey appeals to most.

Darin
From what I've understood from Chris, the mic should be adjusted between "chirps" to ensure grazing reception from the next speaker to be tested. However, while making the adjustments (and then quickly ducking out of sight, acoustically), you should be relatively quiet as the mic is picking up ambient noise beween "chirps" and makes adjustments. If the next "chirp" is at a higher frequency than the last, then you know you made too much noise. I had this problem because of my leather seats. I solve it by covering them with a blanket and being more careful when adjusting the mic.
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post #653 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 02:00 PM
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Thanks Nordo... I'm not so much concerned about noise I make, but the noise that will be transmitted to the mic just from adjusting the tripod. One of the most frustrating things I've found with doing the set-up is that there's no way to re-do a reading if something happens to contaminate a test. You just have to start over from scratch, which is very time consuming.

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post #654 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 05:43 PM
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It would be slick if Audyssey (working with the receiver manufacturers), could implement a PAUSE option during the measurements so we can optimally adjust the mic/grazing angle for difficult or atypical situations (i.e. in-ceiling speakers). Seems to me that would be a fairly simple feature to add.

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post #655 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepysurf View Post

It would be slick if Audyssey (working with the receiver manufacturers), could implement a PAUSE option during the measurements so we can optimally adjust the mic/grazing angle for difficult or atypical situations (i.e. in-ceiling speakers). Seems to me that would be a fairly simple feature to add.

That is an excellent idea. Whenever it became known that the little "re-aim/de-aim the mic dance" was needed, this should have been incorporated.
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post #656 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 09:02 PM
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does anyone have specific directions for using Denon 4308Ci Audyssey setup with a Velodyne DD-10? Should I reset the DD-10 to defaults, turn off low pass filter, set to preset 5 (flat), and run Audyssey (ignoring the DD-10s capabilities)?
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post #657 of 72565 Old 01-14-2008, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Trust me, your room is not acoustically dead; unless you have a LOT of bass traps, you *do* have reflections - at bass frequencies. And if you are accustomed to hearing your room with the peaks from the reflections reinforcing certain frequencies, then hearing your room/system without those, i.e. flat, could be interpreted as "gone."

From experience, hearing truly flat bass for the first time can easily cause the comment "my bass is gone."

Just my $.02.

My room is acoustically dead indeed. All walls, ceiling are covered with a soundproofed material just like a recording studio. There are no reflections at all! That's why I don't have booming although the two powered subs. I wish you could visit me and see/hear it. As for bass, I have a real flat bass using the Velodyne SMS-1 . In my opinion it's another thing a flat bass and another thing a very low level bass.

Audyssey, simply turn down the sub volume at the point you think that there is no subwoofer installed! This is not acceptable to me.
At the other hand, I didn't buy 2 X RSW12 to hear them like a small 8" drive.
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post #658 of 72565 Old 01-15-2008, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Tasos View Post

My room is acoustically dead indeed. All walls, ceiling are covered with a soundproofed material just like a recording studio. There are no reflections at all! That's why I don't have booming although the two powered subs. I wish you could visit me and see/hear it. As for bass, I have a real flat bass using the Velodyne SMS-1 . In my opinion it's another thing a flat bass and another thing a very low level bass.

Audyssey, simply turn down the sub volume at the point you think that there is no subwoofer installed! This is not acceptable to me.
At the other hand, I didn't buy 2 X RSW12 to hear them like a small 8" drive.

OK, I understand that you're unhappy. How thick is the soundproofed material and what, specifically, is it? Are you using bass traps and, if so, how many and what kind are they?

Did you know that electronic correction - EQ - can only correct response at one listening position and does so at the detriment of other positions? Did you know that EQ cannot correct nulls - at all?
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post #659 of 72565 Old 01-15-2008, 05:56 AM
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Sure i understand, but the point is, with blind test, if i turn off the subs you cannot tell the difference. I speak for that kind of difference. When i turn off Audyssey, the subs are alive!
And this is not my imagination. I have tested several times with my colleagues.
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post #660 of 72565 Old 01-15-2008, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasos View Post

Sure i understand, but the point is, with blind test, if i turn off the subs you cannot tell the difference. I speak for that kind of difference. When i turn off Audyssey, the subs are alive!
And this is not my imagination. I have tested several times with my colleagues.

Taso,

I suspect you are suffering from a very common issue that arises from the way bass management is implemented in receivers. Are your speakers set to "Large" after MultEQ runs? The manufacturer requires Audyssey to set the speakers to Large (or Full Band) if MultEQ finds them to rolloff below a certain frequency. When that happens, bass from those channels is NOT sent to the subwoofer because the system thinks that the speakers should be reproducing it. It's a good theory, but it fails in practice. Regardless of their physical size, most speakers should be set to Small so that the subwoofer can kick in to reproduce the lowest frequencies. If the speakers are truly capable of reproducing low frequencies they should be used in addition to the subwoofer. There is a mode to do that called Double Bass in the Onkyo products or LFE+Main in the Denon products.

So, please check and if the speakers are set to Large then change them to Small and try listening to the sub.

Regards,
Chris

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