"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2377 - AVS Forum
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post #71281 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 12:35 PM
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Yes, happened to me over the weekend.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

@ a Moderator

The last page of the thread is not showing up in some circumstances (possibly when a post is made which goes onto the next page as the first post of that page). Not sure if this is AVS-wide or just the Audyssey thread. Anyone else seeing this issue?
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post #71282 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post

Yes, happened to me over the weekend.


Same issue here.. Perhaps it is the thread length that is causing an issue for the AVS database?


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post #71283 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by **OptimusPrime** View Post

I have been following the Dynamic EQ vs. no EQ discussions very closely, and not just the most recent ones. smile.gif

I am a music educator and home theater enthusiast. I consider myself knowledgeable in regards to how Dynamic EQ functions, and can absolutely tell the difference between "off" and "on."

I cannot offer any controlled data that will help advance the discussion (I have no measuring equipment), but would like to offer my two cents.

Since becoming an Audyssey user, I have spent most of my listening with Dynamic EQ on. It is almost certainly easier to leave it enabled once the system has been calibrated.

Recently, I took the advice of so many in this thread and disabled it to see if I develop a "preference." Clearly, with Dynamic EQ enabled I hear the loudness compensation. More bass, and more surround. With it off, the opposite. I don't think the issue is whether or not it is happening, but rather the degree to which it is heard and interpreted (subjective).

I can say that for my listening habits, my new preference is to leave it off. In my room, and with my equipment, I interpret what I am hearing as an improvement in center channel clarity, soundstage warmth, and better overall tonal balance between all speakers in my 7.1 system.

Again, no hard evidence to share. Only what I hear on my system. Leave it on, or off - based on your preference. But I would 100% take the advice if time allows to experiment as recommended in this thread.

Thanks for your contribution to the DEQ issue. BTW, may I ask what is your typical listening level (MV setting) for both movies and for music? Just curious. smile.gif
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post #71284 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 12:43 PM
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I agree with mogorf smile.gif. I just picked up the 4520 and I think XT32 does a better job than my Pioneer Elite SC-79 with a SMS-1 combined. But that's my room so who knows biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by ezrangel View Post

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I can´t find a straight answer.

I have a Marantz 8801 pre/pro with Audyssey XT32. Do I need anything alse to EQ my sub (SVS PC12-NSD)? Would I benefit from a Behringer 1124dsp?

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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi,

No need to complicate life from the beginning. Just run Audyssey on the Marantz "as is", but for best results make sure to follow the Audyssey Guide (link in my sig) to the letter.
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post #71285 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post

I agree with mogorf smile.gif. I just picked up the 4520 and I think XT32 does a better job than my Pioneer Elite SC-79 with a SMS-1 combined. But that's my room so who knows biggrin.gif

Bigham, did you also follow the Audyssey Setup Guide to the letter? wink.gifcool.gif
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post #71286 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 12:55 PM
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Yes sir. That is why I believe it sounds better than my old combo. But I haven't tried the 4520 with the SMS-1. It sounded better from the get-to and didn't feel the need for more tweaking (as of right now anyways). Just waiting on my mic for REW so I can learn more about my room.
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Bigham, did you also follow the Audyssey Setup Guide to the letter? wink.gifcool.gif
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post #71287 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post

Yes sir. That is why I believe it sounds better than my old combo. But I haven't tried the 4520 with the SMS-1. It sounded better from the get-to and didn't feel the need for more tweaking (as of right now anyways). Just waiting on my mic for REW so I can learn more about my room.

While you're waiting for your mic you can download REW and play with the "Room Sim". It works for up to 4 subs, just drag them around with mouse and see the effect.

Here's a screen shot of the Sim:



Have fun! smile.gif
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post #71288 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 01:09 PM
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Awesome and thank you!! I printed out the 90+ beginner manual but haven't looked at it yet. Looks intimidating eek.gif
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

While you're waiting for your mic you can download REW and play with the "Room Sim". It works for up to 4 subs, just drag them around with mouse and see the effect.

Here's a screen shot of the Sim:



Have fun! smile.gif
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post #71289 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I think you know the answer to that smile.gif
Honestly, I am pissed my lawn mower doesnt have loudness compensation, or my washing machine for that matter. Actually, basically everything in real life should come with loudness compensation, I can't believe I have had to listen to things wrong my entire life.... What is this world coming to? wink.gifbiggrin.gif
Only if you want to go that extra mile....and/or there is a significant issue that audyssey itself isn't completely able to fix. I personally am a tinkerer, so I love manually eqing and messing around with that type of stuff smile.gif

I can't find a volume control on my lawn mower or my washing machine. So both are always, by definition, at the REAL "reference" and adjustments could only be wrong. Equally true of the fan blowing in the next room, although I doubt it has significant low frequency content . . . .

And while the washing machine is in a static environment, the "surround" effects of my mower doubtless change depending on whether I'm close to the house or near my wood fence or more out in the middle where reflections are going to be lower (because even in the real world, SPL drops with distance . . . . I never notice, even without my in-ears playing music. The sound of my washing machine in the little room it occupies is defined by the room (like John Meyer's solo on "Something LIke Olivia," which sounds like a tiny room (relatively speaking - likely a vocal booth to my ears). In a perfect world, my system would reproduce the sondscape captured (in multichannel classical recordings) or created by the sound designers in movies, regardless of where I play it. That would require, I think, entirely removing room effects in the playback (and perhaps a better playback system (object-oriented surround, anyone?) but I'm not going to get there.

Probably (just as a WAG) if I'm within 10 dB or so of whatever "reference" is, the perceptual changes in frequency response wrought by the fact that I am, AFAIK, human, are not intrusive. But I listen a lot quieter than that a lot of the time, and, for me, with most but not all content, DEQ helps (although I have things offset to yield undercorrection rather than overcorrection . . . . The DTS surround mix of the Return to FOrever reunion concert is too hot in the bass for DEQ to be right, but maybe a touch bass shy without. I pick my poison on an as-I-feel-it basis. The live "The Way Up" BD, on the other hand, is perfectly happy with DEQ, and, to my ears, most days, Jeff Beck Live at Ronnie Scott's is okay with DEQ engaged, if a tad overboosted, (but I do have it offset, as I may have mentioned 60 words ago). But none of those would have been mixed with any specific reference level in mind, so how DEQ behaves is a crap shoot.
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post #71290 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

This also pretty much reflects my experience.

But this, of course, we would never know. tongue.gifwink.gif
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post #71291 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Thanks for your contribution to the DEQ issue. BTW, may I ask what is your typical listening level (MV setting) for both movies and for music? Just curious. smile.gif

Sure.
Movies, typically -25 to -15. Gets very loud beyond that.
Music, generally the same but slightly less. Typically -30 to -20.
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post #71292 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by **OptimusPrime** View Post

Sure.
Movies, typically -25 to -15. Gets very loud beyond that.
Music, generally the same but slightly less. Typically -30 to -20.

Thank you Sir. Appreciate it. If you allow me to enter into some Q & A with you as a music educator, do you from time to time make a recording of the live music you teach? If so, how does it sound compared to live music as regards spectral balance during playback?
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post #71293 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Thank you Sir. Appreciate it. If you allow me to enter into some Q & A with you as a music educator, do you from time to time make a recording of the live music you teach? If so, how does it sound compared to live music as regards spectral balance during playback?

Sure, happy to oblige. But, this is really a complicated question and I'm not sure my opinions will help much here on the Audyssey thread. There are many variables to consider.

Yes, I record all of our concerts. The first variable I consider, is how large/small and loud/soft the performing group is. The second variable, is the room. Everything will sound different in the gym vs. the classroom. Another variable is which equipment should be used for the recording itself. I have found a recording device that works very well for our performances. It is a two-channel, stereo straight to cd recorder called the "super scope." It allows me to set levels and make tweaks based on the group, room, piece, etc. Another variable is the option of processing or distortion. Post-recording, if I wish, I can further make tweaks to "boost" the bass, cut out unwanted audience noise, etc. during playback. Usually, I don't mess with it because I want to use the recording for reflection with my students. We want it as close to "original" as possible. Here is the most important factor, however. The quality of playback depends immensely on the device, speakers, room, etc.

I was once in a band that had recorded some tunes in my bass player's basement. As an audio engineer, he told me that the secret to making a good recording has everything to do with the way it's recorded. If it is recorded well, it should sound "good" no matter what it's played back on. But, with regard to spectral balance - it will never, EVER sound the same. smile.gif

Hope this little digression has in some small way, helped.
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post #71294 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

You just hit the nail on the head beast. Yup even a lawn mower would need loudness control provided it has a volume control.

I use reverse DEQ on my lawn mower: rolleyes.gif I get more suppression of bass when I wear my Bose noise cancellation headphones while cutting the lawn than I do with the $30 ear protector earmuffs I bought at the hardware store.

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post #71295 of 71855 Old 05-27-2014, 11:38 PM
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So tell me what do you do when you hook a power amp up to your integrated/pre amp out audessy amplifier and its putting out with no prob 200+rms because of my front loudspeakers impedance only being 4 ohms -my poor marantz sr5007 amp is struggling to keep up in musical peak outputs with the centre and rear channels and i think they are about 70rms -they are 8ohms impedance how do you tweak it without messing up audessy calibrations etc? is it possible to tweak the volume settings on the various channels without messing up the audessy setting-as I said i can't hear dialouge etc in musical climaxes much anyway at the moment-but any suggestions

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post #71296 of 71855 Old 05-28-2014, 12:48 AM
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Audyssey doesn't care if the amps are in the box or in a different box. And it doesn't care if you are using 50 watts or 200 watts. It's calibrating your speakers to play at a defined level and correcting them to play to a defined target curve. So I'm not really sure what you are asking? If you just want to tweak the speaker levels, sure, the EQ filters are independent.

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post #71297 of 71855 Old 05-28-2014, 01:40 AM
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Thanks thats what i needed to know i wasn't sure if I changed the output levels on the marantz main amplifier-just your centre channel etc whether it would affect the audessy settings I've never owned anything with this feature on it before and I didnt want to have to sit there and mess about putting the mic on a stand in 6 places for an hour again lol if there was any way around it

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post #71298 of 71855 Old 05-28-2014, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Adrenalin View Post
 

Thanks thats what i needed to know i wasn't sure if I changed the output levels on the marantz main amplifier-just your centre channel etc whether it would affect the audessy settings I've never owned anything with this feature on it before and I didnt want to have to sit there and mess about putting the mic on a stand in 6 places for an hour again lol if there was any way around it

It is not clear but, if you are saying that you ran Audyssey without external amp and then added the amp, it is possible that the gain of the added amp will change the volume of the center channel  That will require an adjustment to the center channel volume if you know what the change is or it will require you to run Audyssey again.

 

While Audyssey doesn't care where or what the amps are, you should always run Audyssey with the full and final system configuration in place.


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post #71299 of 71855 Old 05-29-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Adrenalin View Post
 

Thanks thats what i needed to know i wasn't sure if I changed the output levels on the marantz main amplifier-just your centre channel etc whether it would affect the audessy settings I've never owned anything with this feature on it before and I didnt want to have to sit there and mess about putting the mic on a stand in 6 places for an hour again lol if there was any way around it

 

Bit of background in addition to batpig's and Kal's entirely correct responses:

 

From the Audyssey FAQ:

 

a)13. Will Audyssey work if I am using external amplification?

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post #71300 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 12:54 PM
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Still a bit confused on how all of Audyssey's tech works. My basic understanding is that MultEq and its various iterations corrects for how your room sounds. And I am assuming it also corrects for how your speakers sound to whatever extent that it can. Is this correct? I always hear about room correction but not much about speaker correction. Like if you have front towers that are warmer and not as bright as your center and surrounds would it try to help raise the upper frequency on the towers to help get them tonaly matched to the rest of your speakers?

 

My understanding of DynamicEQ is that it works to boost the bass, and surrounds when listening at lower than reference volume. Is this correct.

 

My understanding of Dynamic Volume is that it works basically works to keep anything from playing too loudly. But does it also boost quite stuff to make it easy to hear at low volume? Or is that more in the dynamicEQ department? Is Dyanamic Volume like DynamicEQ in that it does progressively more or less as you get closer to reference volume.

 

Then finally there is Reference Volume Offset which seems to be the most confusing and least documented part of Audyssey. I understand that DynamicEQ does less and less the closer you get to Reference Level, and that you can kind of trick Dynamic volume by turning up you source level input, so that Dynamic volume will think your are listening at a quieter volume than you really are and thus make more adjustments than it normally would at that given volume, but how does this compare to reference level offset?

 

Is Reference Level Offset of 10, say equal to turning up the source level input by 10, turning it down by 10?

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post #71301 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComponentActual View Post

Still a bit confused on how all of Audyssey's tech works. My basic understanding is that MultEq and its various iterations corrects for how your room sounds. And I am assuming it also corrects for how your speakers sound to whatever extent that it can. Is this correct? I always hear about room correction but not much about speaker correction. Like if you have front towers that are warmer and not as bright as your center and surrounds would it try to help raise the upper frequency on the towers to help get them tonaly matched to the rest of your speakers?

My understanding of DynamicEQ is that it works to boost the bass, and surrounds when listening at lower than reference volume. Is this correct.

My understanding of Dynamic Volume is that it works basically works to keep anything from playing too loudly. But does it also boost quite stuff to make it easy to hear at low volume? Or is that more in the dynamicEQ department? Is Dyanamic Volume like DynamicEQ in that it does progressively more or less as you get closer to reference volume.

Then finally there is Reference Volume Offset which seems to be the most confusing and least documented part of Audyssey. I understand that DynamicEQ does less and less the closer you get to Reference Level, and that you can kind of trick Dynamic volume by turning up you source level input, so that Dynamic volume will think your are listening at a quieter volume than you really are and thus make more adjustments than it normally would at that given volume, but how does this compare to reference level offset?

Is Reference Level Offset of 10, say equal to turning up the source level input by 10, turning it down by 10?

You don't sound confused to me! smile.gif Seems you have a very good handle on Audyssey.

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post #71302 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 01:30 PM
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Thanks your right I guess to say I am confused is bit of an overstatement. I

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You don't sound confused to me! smile.gif Seems you have a very good handle on Audyssey.


Thanks. I think I do have a decent handle on the basics. But I am still definitely confused on the reference level offset portion. I found a page on Audyssey's website once that shows of these offsets are essentially above reference level like +10 or +15, and some are below like -5. I forget which is which and I cant find it anymore.

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post #71303 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 01:44 PM
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The technologies are explained both in the FAQ and on Audyssey's website. But to clarify:

1) MultEQ is the EQ correction -- it creates a filter for each speaker to bring it to the desired target curve. The target curve is the same for all speakers, so yes, if one speaker is "warm" with a rolled off treble and the other speaker is "bright" with an elevated treble, the former will get a high freq boost whereas the latter will get high freqs reduced. That's a dramatic simplication though because the actual response IN ROOM will vary greatly from the idealized anechoic measurements. But in principle it's simple, regardless of whether the "problems" are caused by the room or by something fundamental about the speakers -- it measures how the speakers sound at the mic positions you use, and then corrects them to the target curve.

2) DEQ does two things -- the first is a 2-tiered loudness compensation, which adjusts the bass (mostly) and treble (slightly) both based on the volume setting (first tier), and also based on the content (second tier). The other thing it does is boost surround level to maintain "surround immersion" at below reference volumes, but the surround boost is a simpler 1-tier solution (boost is fixed based on volume setting).

3) DV controls swings in volume, both loud and soft. So soft sounds are raised, and loud sounds are reduced. It is not based upon the volume setting, but rather the "strength" setting you choose (the stronger the setting the more it clamps down on volume swings). However, DV builds on top of DEQ, so the compensation of DEQ is factored in to maintain tonal balance and surround immersion hand in hand with DV.

4) The Reference Level Offset affects DEQ -- remember that DEQ is largely based on the volume setting. The further you drop the volume below "reference" (MV = 0) the more it compensates. At MV=0, there is no compensation. Ref Level Offset "tricks" DEQ into doing less compensation by moving the effective "no compensation" point down by the specified amount. So if RLO is set to 10dB, then the reference level is "offset" by 10dB down so now the "no compensation point' is at -10 MV instead of 0.

So, for example, if you listen at -25dB on the master volume, with RLO set to default 0 then DEQ will compensate as though you are a full 25dB below reference. If you adjust the RLO to 10dB, then DEQ will compensate as though you are only 15dB below reference (25 minus 10).
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post #71304 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 01:47 PM
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I find it really surprising that people don't like Dynamic EQ. My Dad always had a surround sound system for our main TV growing up, and I always felt like it wasn't doing as much as it could, because I never heard the rear speakers. I remember always standing on the couch and putting my ear up to them to test if they were on. The best part of that system was the subwoofer, and listening to the Terminator 2 open sequence was always a blast. Later on when I was in college I built a gaming computer and purchased a cheap logitech 5.1 surround sound computer speaker setup for it. When I first hooked up those Logitech computer speakers and played a video game on the PC I was blown away. I had complete surround sound envelopment and could hear enemies from every direction. It was amazing, and as far as I was concerned it completely blew away my Dad's system which cost probably 15x as much, simply because on my system I could actually hear all these speakers not just the one center speaker on-top of the TV. I realize now that it was just due to the content differences between video games and movies, and that video games have a much more even surround sound field than movies which have most of their sound in the front speakers. Now however that I bought my first true home theater surround sound system with a receiver, and have experienced Dynamic EQ, I get that same feeling I did when I first hooked up those logitechs to play video games. That this is what Surrround Sound is suppose to sound like. I can actually hear stuff happening in the background. I am actually getting use of all these speakers placed around the room. I know that next time I visit my Dad I will enable this feature for him too if he has it.

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post #71305 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ComponentActual View Post

I find it really surprising that people don't like Dynamic EQ.

Be advised they are vocal but a vast minority.
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post #71306 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The technologies are explained both in the FAQ and on Audyssey's website. But to clarify:

1) MultEQ is the EQ correction -- it creates a filter for each speaker to bring it to the desired target curve. The target curve is the same for all speakers, so yes, if one speaker is "warm" with a rolled off treble and the other speaker is "bright" with an elevated treble, the former will get a high freq boost whereas the latter will get high freqs reduced. That's a dramatic simplication though because the actual response IN ROOM will vary greatly from the idealized anechoic measurements. But in principle it's simple, regardless of whether the "problems" are caused by the room or by something fundamental about the speakers -- it measures how the speakers sound at the mic positions you use, and then corrects them to the target curve.

2) DEQ does two things -- the first is a 2-tiered loudness compensation, which adjusts the bass (mostly) and treble (slightly) both based on the volume setting (first tier), and also based on the content (second tier). The other thing it does is boost surround level to maintain "surround immersion" at below reference volumes, but the surround boost is a simpler 1-tier solution (boost is fixed based on volume setting).

3) DV controls swings in volume, both loud and soft. So soft sounds are raised, and loud sounds are reduced. It is not based upon the volume setting, but rather the "strength" setting you choose (the stronger the setting the more it clamps down on volume swings). However, DV builds on top of DEQ, so the compensation of DEQ is factored in to maintain tonal balance and surround immersion hand in hand with DV.

4) The Reference Level Offset affects DEQ -- remember that DEQ is largely based on the volume setting. The further you drop the volume below "reference" (MV = 0) the more it compensates. At MV=0, there is no compensation. Ref Level Offset "tricks" DEQ into doing less compensation by moving the effective "no compensation" point down by the specified amount. So if RLO is set to 10dB, then the reference level is "offset" by 10dB down so now the "no compensation point' is at -10 MV instead of 0.

So, for example, if you listen at -25dB on the master volume, with RLO set to default 0 then DEQ will compensate as though you are a full 25dB below reference. If you adjust the RLO to 10dB, then DEQ will compensate as though you are only 15dB below reference (25 minus 10).


Batpig your best, as always you have the most coherent thorough and easily understood responses. However I could have sworn I saw somewhere that one of the 3 Reference Level Offset options actually raises the effective "no compensation" point while the other two settings lower it? Did I dream this?

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post #71307 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 01:56 PM
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Hello. I was on this thread a couple of weeks ago but had to turn my attention to other things, and I feel that I still haven't resolved my issue. I have a Marantz SR7007 receiver and my left surround has become noticeable lower that my right and rear surrounds. I confirmed this when I played my Video Essentials audio level test while using my trusty Radio Shack meter. The left surround is at least 2 db lower than the others. I was just going to increase the level of that channel, but I read in the manual that if any speaker level adjustments are made after running Audyssey, the DynamiEQ won't work. So I feel like I should run the entire set-up again to see if doing that will restore the low left surround channel; or, should I bring up the level of that channel first manually BEFORE re-running Audyssey. Comments? Thanks! One more thought. Should I use all 8 mic positions for best results?

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post #71308 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post


Be advised they are vocal but a vast minority.


??? I feel like you meant to say something else here but a "'n't" or a "not" got left out.

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post #71309 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by William Moore View Post

Hello. I was on this thread a couple of weeks ago but had to turn my attention to other things, and I feel that I still haven't resolved my issue. I have a Marantz SR7007 receiver and my left surround has become noticeable lower that my right and rear surrounds. I confirmed this when I played my Video Essentials audio level test while using my trusty Radio Shack meter. The left surround is at least 2 db lower than the others. I was just going to increase the level of that channel, but I read in the manual that if any speaker level adjustments are made after running Audyssey, the DynamiEQ won't work. So I feel like I should run the entire set-up again to see if doing that will restore the low left surround channel; or, should I bring up the level of that channel first manually BEFORE re-running Audyssey. Comments? Thanks! One more thought. Should I use all 8 mic positions for best results?


If you change your speaker levels it won't erase your audyssey calibartion, but Audyssey is calibrated for the speaker levels it selected so you could be throwing off the calculation if you adjust the speaker levels. If that makes sense. DynamicEQ should still work. Audyssey is usually very good about setting the speaker levels correctly though so maybe you should try running the calibration again, and yes it is very important to use all 8 positions, and to not just run it 8 times in one position. Basically the mic needs to measure several points around the listening positions to get a clear picture of what is going on. Also no need to adjust levels before running audyssey calibration, because Audyssey is going to set the speakers levels on its own anyway, so it will ignore whatever speaker levels you select anyway.

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post #71310 of 71855 Old 05-30-2014, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ComponentActual View Post


??? I feel like you meant to say something else here but a "'n't" or a "not" got left out.

nope. Put another way - most people use and like DynEQ.
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