"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2380 - AVS Forum
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post #71371 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post
cant seem to find an answer to this or how to videos on setting up dual subwoofers

how do i run dual subwoofers with a denon 1712?

i know i have to buy one of these.

http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-UL...fer+y+splitter

do i run audyssey for each subwoofer separately to +/- 3db and when done connect both with the splitter? or do i run audyssey with just one subwoofer, get it tuned and then set gain on the other sub exactly the same as the audysseyed sub, then connect with y splitter? not sure how to do this
Yes, you will need a Y-splitter.

I'm making the assumption you have 2 identical subs.

Set the gain on both subs to the same level - around 12:00-2:00 on the gain knob is a good starting point.

1. Connect sub #1 only and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #1
3. Place sub #1 in that position
4. Connect both subs and place sub #2 at the MLP (with sub #1 playing as well)
5. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #2
6. Place sub #2 in that position
7. Adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)
8. Run Audyssey, first mic position only, and "calculate"
9. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -5db ideally
10. Adjust the gain on both subs by the same amount up or down as needed to achieve #8
11. Repeat 8-10 until you get the sub trim around -5db
12. Run the full Audyssey calibration
13. Bump up the sub trim from 3db to 6db to your preference
14. Enjoy!

Hope this helps!
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post #71372 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, you will need a Y-splitter.

I'm making the assumption you have 2 identical subs.

Set the gain on both subs to the same level - around 12:00-2:00 on the gain knob is a good starting point.

1. Connect sub #1 only and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #1
3. Place sub #1 in that position
4. Connect both subs and place sub #2 at the MLP (with sub #1 playing as well)
5. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #2
6. Place sub #2 in that position
7. Adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)
8. Run Audyssey, first mic position only, and "calculate"
9. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -5db ideally
10. Adjust the gain on both subs by the same amount up or down as needed to achieve #8
11. Repeat 8-10 until you get the sub trim around -5db
12. Run the full Audyssey calibration
13. Bump up the sub trim from 3db to 6db to your preference
14. Enjoy!

Hope this helps!
Hi Alan, good instructions, indeed. My only nit is point #7 . Phase on sub is generally best when defeated. If sub has an input like LFE that by-passes all internal circuitry then go for it. If not then phase at 0 is best. Audyssey (for best results) doesn't like additional electronics or on-board filters or phase shifters messing up the calibration route.

Last edited by mogorf; 06-13-2014 at 03:31 PM.
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post #71373 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 03:35 PM
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Not my experience at all Mogorf. I've found that adjusting phase in multiple sub configurations to be very beneficial. In fact, I would go so far as saying it is absolutely necessary for proper bass with multiple subs.
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post #71374 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 03:38 PM
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I should qualify my above post with this; if the subs are close enough together to be mutually coupled (3.5') then phase adjustment should not be necessary.
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post #71375 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Not my experience at all Mogorf. I've found that adjusting phase in multiple sub configurations to be very beneficial. In fact, I would go so far as saying it is absolutely necessary for proper bass with multiple subs.
No trouble Alan. Although your principle (and experience) is against theory, i.e. letting Audyssey do its thing without anything in its way (in Layman's), you are right when it comes to preference. Each his own, eh?

Take care.
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post #71376 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I should qualify my above post with this; if the subs are close enough together to be mutually coupled (3.5') then phase adjustment should not be necessary.
Not quite sure what you mean by "subs are close enough together to be mutually coupled (3.5')". Care to expand? Nice to talk to you.
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post #71377 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 03:50 PM
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I believe in laying the best foundation possible for Audyssey (via placement, gain and phase), not "getting in it's way".
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post #71378 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 03:53 PM
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I believe in laying the best foundation possible for Audyssey (via placement, gain and phase), not "getting in it's way".
Mutually coupled? Me puzzled, but that's just me.
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post #71379 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 04:03 PM
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Geez Feri, are you just being pedantic? You've been around here long enough to know what I'm talking about.
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post #71380 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Geez Feri, are you just being pedantic? You've been around here long enough to know what I'm talking about.
Pedantic or not, just trying to scrap out #7 .
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post #71381 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Geez Feri, are you just being pedantic? You've been around here long enough to know what I'm talking about.
"Mutually coupled" as in "Co-located"

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post #71382 of 72532 Old 06-13-2014, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post
"Mutually coupled" as in "Co-located"
Guys, I think neither "mutually coupled", nor "co-located" are the proper words for describing the setting up of more than 1 sub in a room. Without going into details, there is much more to it, indeed.
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post #71383 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 01:46 AM
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thanks guys this makes it much easier to understand, except two things.

two guys who obviously know what they are talking about, are disagreeing about #7 so im stuck there . second, what does mlp mean? i dont understand that acronym i dont know what it means.
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post #71384 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 01:46 AM
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yes two identical subwoofers.

thanks guys this makes it much easier to understand, except two things.

you two guys going back and forth obviously know what you are talking about, are disagreeing about #7 so im stuck there for now. second, what does mlp mean? i dont understand that acronym i dont know what it means.

Last edited by Luisfc1972; 06-14-2014 at 01:50 AM.
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post #71385 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Not my experience at all Mogorf. I've found that adjusting phase in multiple sub configurations to be very beneficial. In fact, I would go so far as saying it is absolutely necessary for proper bass with multiple subs.
Agreed. It is also what the sub distance tweak is all about, which has improved response around the XO in every case that I have seen. Audyssey never gets the splice right (except by chance) because it never measures the combined response of the sub and mains, so getting the phase adjustment right is bound to be hit or miss. In my own setup, when I had subs which allowed for phase adjustment, I had to alter one sub by a full 180 degrees to deliver the best bass. The difference was immediate and totally obvious, both on listening and on measuring. So I commend your method to the thread.
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post #71386 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post
thanks guys this makes it much easier to understand, except two things.

two guys who obviously know what they are talking about, are disagreeing about #7 so im stuck there . second, what does mlp mean? i dont understand that acronym i dont know what it means.
MLP = main listening position.

There's no doubt that checking and adjusting phase relationships of multiple subs can, and does, yield great benefits. Alan P is right on that. Audyssey is pretty good at most things but it can't really be all that good at something it never measures in the first place

If you have measuring tools it is very easy to check what an adjustment of sub phase does. If you don't have measuring gear it is easy enough using Alan P's method, especially if you have a SPL meter (or can download a free one for your smartphone - good enough for this purpose). It is vital that all speakers reproducing the same frequency range are in phase with each other (ie mains and all subs).
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post #71387 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 05:34 AM
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PLEASE NOTE THAT SINCE THE CHANGEOVER TO VBULLETIN SOFTWARE, ALL LINKS TO FAQ ANSWERS ARE POTENTIALLY BROKEN. SO ARE ALL HYPERLINKS IN THE FAQ ITSELF.

The Huddler team, vBulletin team and AVS are working on restoring things to their former smooth operational mode, so please bear with me and these guys until the work has been completed. Thanks.

You can still reach the FAQ from the link in my sig for some reason though.




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post #71388 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 07:10 AM
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Alan p is 100% good with his suggestion on #7 and is dead correct with needing to adjust phase with subwoofers BEFORE audyssey runs it's course. Doing this ensures that the subs are not fighting against each other and are phase linear. After calibration you may (probably) still need to do the distance tweak to get your subs properly in phase with your mains.

To suggest not using this phase adjustment for a multi sub/not co-located setup is ignorant, and will yield sub optimal results bottom line.

Fwiw mutually located or co-located subs are close enough together in the room that their responses are near identical, creating a singular entity. This provides a dB advantage but may not work as well smoothing room modes as subs strategically placed around the room.
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post #71389 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 07:39 AM
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Before this subwoofer phase issue gets totally out of control I'd really like to suggest to those interested to use the "search this thread/advanced search" and username: "Audyssey" feature.

You will find the subject discussed in details way down this thread when Chris Kyriakasis was a regular member here and explained things like this:

Qte

"The analog phase control knob on the back of the sub is basically, well... useless. It only operates on one frequency and often will cause more harm than good by introducing group delay. I highly recommend leaving it at 0.

The problem of summing two subs is a complex one. What we found is that it is best to first time align them either by digital delay or by placing them at the same distance from the listening position. Then, you need to level align them. After that, the best results are obtained by summing the two subs and creating a single room correction filter for the time- and level-aligned combination. This is only possible with the stand-alone subwoofer processors.

If it's not possible to place the subs at the same distance, then just feed them with a y-cord from the AVR subwoofer output and let MultEQ try to correct the anomalies due to phase (time) and the room.

Chris"

Unqte

Link here:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
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post #71390 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 09:34 AM
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While I agree standalone digital delay is more than likely a better solution, the op has at his disposal the phase adjustment on his subs, and likely doesn't own an outboard dsp of some sort. With that said, the phase knob is his only option to align his two subs properly before implementing audyssey.

I disagree with the last part where chris suggests to let audyssey "try" to iron out the issues via eq. This is a flawed approach and yields absolutely no benefit to your system in the time domain, which chris clearly stated is the best way to handle it in the first place.
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post #71391 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 09:42 AM
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Thumbs up

To the OP again:

"The analog phase control knob on the back of the sub is basically, well... useless. It only operates on one frequency and often will cause more harm than good by introducing group delay. I highly recommend leaving it at 0."
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post #71392 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 09:42 AM
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Also, placing the subs at the same distance from your seating position while in reality would be nice, it rarely is the best spot for your subs. I got lucky in my space but I also am running an almost full front wall of subs... Located at 1/4 points in from side walls and floor/ceiling to not excite any major room modes. This yields a response that requires virtually no eq, and subs fortunately for me are already time aligned with themselves. I still require the audyssey distance tweak after calibration however.
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post #71393 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 09:52 AM
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I am not going to play cat and mouse here again. Luis, Alan p gave you a great way to start to set up your multi sub approach and I have experience assisting many other members on multi sub approaches. Reach out of you need some guidance.
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post #71394 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I am not going to play cat and mouse here again. Luis, Alan p gave you a great way to start to set up your multi sub approach and I have experience assisting many other members on multi sub approaches. Reach out of you need some guidance.
Agreed. Good advice to the OP. Pretty much everyone whose view is worth taking into consideration would agree with this approach. The alternative of just placing god-like trust in Audyssey to get it right is pretty much guaranteed to give a sub-optimal result. Everyone who has set up multiple subs knows this.
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post #71395 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post
yes two identical subwoofers.

thanks guys this makes it much easier to understand, except two things.

you two guys going back and forth obviously know what you are talking about, are disagreeing about #7 so im stuck there for now. second, what does mlp mean? i dont understand that acronym i dont know what it means.
Hi Luis,

Should you be still interested in #7 , let's dig a bit deeper into the subject. As we know by now setting phase knob on the sub(s) to other than 0 will cause so-called "group delay". Why is this bad?

Qte

Originally Posted by craig john

What does "group delay" sound like? How does one measure it?

Craig


Chris K:

Hi Craig,

Group delay is defined as the change in phase as a function of frequency. Ideally, one would want nearly constant phase as a function of frequency. Jens Blauert showed (in a 1970's paper) that the audibility of group delay is on the order of 2-3 ms in the low frequencies. That means that if the lower frequencies are delayed by 2-3 ms relative to those above them the average listener will notice artifacts. The most common of these is in transient sounds that cover multiple frequencies. The very low frequencies do not arrive at the same time as the ones higher up and this sounds like smeared transients.

Unqte

Link here: "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

Surely this is not what you want, eh?
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post #71396 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Ideally, one would want nearly constant phase as a function of frequency.
Does your sub or speakers exhibit this?
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post #71397 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Ideally, one would want nearly constant phase as a function of frequency.
Does your sub or speakers exhibit this?
Why the question? I hope it does. I have the phase shift feature on my sub by-passed completely. So surely I do not introduce to my system such artifacts than can be attributable to the "phase shift at one frequency" dilemma.

BTW, the Audyssey Setup Guide (compiled by geomania) says:

E. If the subwoofer has a phase control (in addition to the polarity control), set it at “0”.

1. Phase controls on subwoofers apply "delay" at one frequency rather than the needed group delay that is frequency-independent. So, it is best to just leave them at “0”.

Agree?

Last edited by mogorf; 06-14-2014 at 12:01 PM.
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post #71398 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Ideally, one would want nearly constant phase as a function of frequency.
Does your sub or speakers exhibit this?
Why the question? I hope it does. I have the phase shift feature on my sub by-passed completely.

BTW, the Audyssey Setup Guide (compiled by geomania) says:

E. If the subwoofer has a phase control (in addition to the polarity control), set it at “0”.

1. Phase controls on subwoofers apply "delay" at one frequency rather than the needed group delay that is frequency-independent. So, it is best to just leave them at “0”.

Agree?
I guess you'll just have to keep on hoping then. :-) Look for phase plots of your sub and speakers and I'm sure you will find they are far from constant. Below is just an example, not your speakers, with multiple 90 deg phase shifts.


Your quote from the setup guide is indeed accurate.....for a single sub. With two subs the phase control becomes a very valuable tool.
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post #71399 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
With two subs the phase control becomes a very valuable tool.
Care to expand on how it becomes very valuable?
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post #71400 of 72532 Old 06-14-2014, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
With two subs the phase control becomes a very valuable tool.
Care to expand on how it becomes very valuable?
I believe others in this thread have sufficiently answered this question already.
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