"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2380 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-13-2014, 03:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, you will need a Y-splitter.

I'm making the assumption you have 2 identical subs.

Set the gain on both subs to the same level - around 12:00-2:00 on the gain knob is a good starting point.

1. Connect sub #1 only and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #1
3. Place sub #1 in that position
4. Connect both subs and place sub #2 at the MLP (with sub #1 playing as well)
5. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #2
6. Place sub #2 in that position
7. Adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)
8. Run Audyssey, first mic position only, and "calculate"
9. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -5db ideally
10. Adjust the gain on both subs by the same amount up or down as needed to achieve #8
11. Repeat 8-10 until you get the sub trim around -5db
12. Run the full Audyssey calibration
13. Bump up the sub trim from 3db to 6db to your preference
14. Enjoy!

Hope this helps!
Hi Alan, good instructions, indeed. My only nit is point #7 . Phase on sub is generally best when defeated. If sub has an input like LFE that by-passes all internal circuitry then go for it. If not then phase at 0 is best. Audyssey (for best results) doesn't like additional electronics or on-board filters or phase shifters messing up the calibration route.

Last edited by mogorf; 06-13-2014 at 03:31 PM.
mogorf is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-13-2014, 03:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 5,530
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2285 Post(s)
Liked: 1237
Not my experience at all Mogorf. I've found that adjusting phase in multiple sub configurations to be very beneficial. In fact, I would go so far as saying it is absolutely necessary for proper bass with multiple subs.
kbarnes701 likes this.
Alan P is offline  
Old 06-13-2014, 03:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 5,530
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2285 Post(s)
Liked: 1237
I should qualify my above post with this; if the subs are close enough together to be mutually coupled (3.5') then phase adjustment should not be necessary.
Alan P is offline  
Old 06-13-2014, 03:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Not my experience at all Mogorf. I've found that adjusting phase in multiple sub configurations to be very beneficial. In fact, I would go so far as saying it is absolutely necessary for proper bass with multiple subs.
No trouble Alan. Although your principle (and experience) is against theory, i.e. letting Audyssey do its thing without anything in its way (in Layman's), you are right when it comes to preference. Each his own, eh?

Take care.
mogorf is online now  
Old 06-13-2014, 03:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I should qualify my above post with this; if the subs are close enough together to be mutually coupled (3.5') then phase adjustment should not be necessary.
Not quite sure what you mean by "subs are close enough together to be mutually coupled (3.5')". Care to expand? Nice to talk to you.
mogorf is online now  
Old 06-13-2014, 03:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 5,530
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2285 Post(s)
Liked: 1237
I believe in laying the best foundation possible for Audyssey (via placement, gain and phase), not "getting in it's way".
Alan P is offline  
Old 06-13-2014, 03:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I believe in laying the best foundation possible for Audyssey (via placement, gain and phase), not "getting in it's way".
Mutually coupled? Me puzzled, but that's just me.
mogorf is online now  
Old 06-13-2014, 04:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 5,530
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2285 Post(s)
Liked: 1237
Geez Feri, are you just being pedantic? You've been around here long enough to know what I'm talking about.
Alan P is offline  
Old 06-13-2014, 04:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Geez Feri, are you just being pedantic? You've been around here long enough to know what I'm talking about.
Pedantic or not, just trying to scrap out #7 .
mogorf is online now  
Old 06-13-2014, 04:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
ggsantafe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Solar Powered in the Land of Enchantment
Posts: 819
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Geez Feri, are you just being pedantic? You've been around here long enough to know what I'm talking about.
"Mutually coupled" as in "Co-located"

ggsantafe is online now  
Old 06-13-2014, 04:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post
"Mutually coupled" as in "Co-located"
Guys, I think neither "mutually coupled", nor "co-located" are the proper words for describing the setting up of more than 1 sub in a room. Without going into details, there is much more to it, indeed.
mogorf is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 01:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Luisfc1972's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: los angeles, california
Posts: 1,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 15
thanks guys this makes it much easier to understand, except two things.

two guys who obviously know what they are talking about, are disagreeing about #7 so im stuck there . second, what does mlp mean? i dont understand that acronym i dont know what it means.
Luisfc1972 is offline  
Old 06-14-2014, 01:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Luisfc1972's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: los angeles, california
Posts: 1,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked: 15
yes two identical subwoofers.

thanks guys this makes it much easier to understand, except two things.

you two guys going back and forth obviously know what you are talking about, are disagreeing about #7 so im stuck there for now. second, what does mlp mean? i dont understand that acronym i dont know what it means.

Last edited by Luisfc1972; 06-14-2014 at 01:50 AM.
Luisfc1972 is offline  
Old 06-14-2014, 05:24 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 23,787
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5212 Post(s)
Liked: 3779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Not my experience at all Mogorf. I've found that adjusting phase in multiple sub configurations to be very beneficial. In fact, I would go so far as saying it is absolutely necessary for proper bass with multiple subs.
Agreed. It is also what the sub distance tweak is all about, which has improved response around the XO in every case that I have seen. Audyssey never gets the splice right (except by chance) because it never measures the combined response of the sub and mains, so getting the phase adjustment right is bound to be hit or miss. In my own setup, when I had subs which allowed for phase adjustment, I had to alter one sub by a full 180 degrees to deliver the best bass. The difference was immediate and totally obvious, both on listening and on measuring. So I commend your method to the thread.
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 05:30 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 23,787
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5212 Post(s)
Liked: 3779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post
thanks guys this makes it much easier to understand, except two things.

two guys who obviously know what they are talking about, are disagreeing about #7 so im stuck there . second, what does mlp mean? i dont understand that acronym i dont know what it means.
MLP = main listening position.

There's no doubt that checking and adjusting phase relationships of multiple subs can, and does, yield great benefits. Alan P is right on that. Audyssey is pretty good at most things but it can't really be all that good at something it never measures in the first place

If you have measuring tools it is very easy to check what an adjustment of sub phase does. If you don't have measuring gear it is easy enough using Alan P's method, especially if you have a SPL meter (or can download a free one for your smartphone - good enough for this purpose). It is vital that all speakers reproducing the same frequency range are in phase with each other (ie mains and all subs).
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 05:34 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 23,787
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5212 Post(s)
Liked: 3779
PLEASE NOTE THAT SINCE THE CHANGEOVER TO VBULLETIN SOFTWARE, ALL LINKS TO FAQ ANSWERS ARE POTENTIALLY BROKEN. SO ARE ALL HYPERLINKS IN THE FAQ ITSELF.

The Huddler team, vBulletin team and AVS are working on restoring things to their former smooth operational mode, so please bear with me and these guys until the work has been completed. Thanks.

You can still reach the FAQ from the link in my sig for some reason though.




kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 07:10 AM
Ace of Bass
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 9,665
Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2001 Post(s)
Liked: 1545
Alan p is 100% good with his suggestion on #7 and is dead correct with needing to adjust phase with subwoofers BEFORE audyssey runs it's course. Doing this ensures that the subs are not fighting against each other and are phase linear. After calibration you may (probably) still need to do the distance tweak to get your subs properly in phase with your mains.

To suggest not using this phase adjustment for a multi sub/not co-located setup is ignorant, and will yield sub optimal results bottom line.

Fwiw mutually located or co-located subs are close enough together in the room that their responses are near identical, creating a singular entity. This provides a dB advantage but may not work as well smoothing room modes as subs strategically placed around the room.
kbarnes701 and twain250 like this.
beastaudio is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 07:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Before this subwoofer phase issue gets totally out of control I'd really like to suggest to those interested to use the "search this thread/advanced search" and username: "Audyssey" feature.

You will find the subject discussed in details way down this thread when Chris Kyriakasis was a regular member here and explained things like this:

Qte

"The analog phase control knob on the back of the sub is basically, well... useless. It only operates on one frequency and often will cause more harm than good by introducing group delay. I highly recommend leaving it at 0.

The problem of summing two subs is a complex one. What we found is that it is best to first time align them either by digital delay or by placing them at the same distance from the listening position. Then, you need to level align them. After that, the best results are obtained by summing the two subs and creating a single room correction filter for the time- and level-aligned combination. This is only possible with the stand-alone subwoofer processors.

If it's not possible to place the subs at the same distance, then just feed them with a y-cord from the AVR subwoofer output and let MultEQ try to correct the anomalies due to phase (time) and the room.

Chris"

Unqte

Link here:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
mogorf is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 09:34 AM
Ace of Bass
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 9,665
Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2001 Post(s)
Liked: 1545
While I agree standalone digital delay is more than likely a better solution, the op has at his disposal the phase adjustment on his subs, and likely doesn't own an outboard dsp of some sort. With that said, the phase knob is his only option to align his two subs properly before implementing audyssey.

I disagree with the last part where chris suggests to let audyssey "try" to iron out the issues via eq. This is a flawed approach and yields absolutely no benefit to your system in the time domain, which chris clearly stated is the best way to handle it in the first place.
kbarnes701 likes this.
beastaudio is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 09:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Thumbs up

To the OP again:

"The analog phase control knob on the back of the sub is basically, well... useless. It only operates on one frequency and often will cause more harm than good by introducing group delay. I highly recommend leaving it at 0."
mogorf is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 09:42 AM
Ace of Bass
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 9,665
Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2001 Post(s)
Liked: 1545
Also, placing the subs at the same distance from your seating position while in reality would be nice, it rarely is the best spot for your subs. I got lucky in my space but I also am running an almost full front wall of subs... Located at 1/4 points in from side walls and floor/ceiling to not excite any major room modes. This yields a response that requires virtually no eq, and subs fortunately for me are already time aligned with themselves. I still require the audyssey distance tweak after calibration however.
beastaudio is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 09:52 AM
Ace of Bass
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 9,665
Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2001 Post(s)
Liked: 1545
I am not going to play cat and mouse here again. Luis, Alan p gave you a great way to start to set up your multi sub approach and I have experience assisting many other members on multi sub approaches. Reach out of you need some guidance.
beastaudio is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 10:34 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 23,787
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5212 Post(s)
Liked: 3779
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I am not going to play cat and mouse here again. Luis, Alan p gave you a great way to start to set up your multi sub approach and I have experience assisting many other members on multi sub approaches. Reach out of you need some guidance.
Agreed. Good advice to the OP. Pretty much everyone whose view is worth taking into consideration would agree with this approach. The alternative of just placing god-like trust in Audyssey to get it right is pretty much guaranteed to give a sub-optimal result. Everyone who has set up multiple subs knows this.
kbarnes701 is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 11:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post
yes two identical subwoofers.

thanks guys this makes it much easier to understand, except two things.

you two guys going back and forth obviously know what you are talking about, are disagreeing about #7 so im stuck there for now. second, what does mlp mean? i dont understand that acronym i dont know what it means.
Hi Luis,

Should you be still interested in #7 , let's dig a bit deeper into the subject. As we know by now setting phase knob on the sub(s) to other than 0 will cause so-called "group delay". Why is this bad?

Qte

Originally Posted by craig john

What does "group delay" sound like? How does one measure it?

Craig


Chris K:

Hi Craig,

Group delay is defined as the change in phase as a function of frequency. Ideally, one would want nearly constant phase as a function of frequency. Jens Blauert showed (in a 1970's paper) that the audibility of group delay is on the order of 2-3 ms in the low frequencies. That means that if the lower frequencies are delayed by 2-3 ms relative to those above them the average listener will notice artifacts. The most common of these is in transient sounds that cover multiple frequencies. The very low frequencies do not arrive at the same time as the ones higher up and this sounds like smeared transients.

Unqte

Link here: "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

Surely this is not what you want, eh?
mogorf is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 11:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 4,220
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 377 Post(s)
Liked: 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Ideally, one would want nearly constant phase as a function of frequency.
Does your sub or speakers exhibit this?
primetimeguy is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 11:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Ideally, one would want nearly constant phase as a function of frequency.
Does your sub or speakers exhibit this?
Why the question? I hope it does. I have the phase shift feature on my sub by-passed completely. So surely I do not introduce to my system such artifacts than can be attributable to the "phase shift at one frequency" dilemma.

BTW, the Audyssey Setup Guide (compiled by geomania) says:

E. If the subwoofer has a phase control (in addition to the polarity control), set it at “0”.

1. Phase controls on subwoofers apply "delay" at one frequency rather than the needed group delay that is frequency-independent. So, it is best to just leave them at “0”.

Agree?

Last edited by mogorf; 06-14-2014 at 12:01 PM.
mogorf is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 12:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 4,220
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 377 Post(s)
Liked: 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Ideally, one would want nearly constant phase as a function of frequency.
Does your sub or speakers exhibit this?
Why the question? I hope it does. I have the phase shift feature on my sub by-passed completely.

BTW, the Audyssey Setup Guide (compiled by geomania) says:

E. If the subwoofer has a phase control (in addition to the polarity control), set it at “0”.

1. Phase controls on subwoofers apply "delay" at one frequency rather than the needed group delay that is frequency-independent. So, it is best to just leave them at “0”.

Agree?
I guess you'll just have to keep on hoping then. :-) Look for phase plots of your sub and speakers and I'm sure you will find they are far from constant. Below is just an example, not your speakers, with multiple 90 deg phase shifts.


Your quote from the setup guide is indeed accurate.....for a single sub. With two subs the phase control becomes a very valuable tool.
primetimeguy is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 12:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
With two subs the phase control becomes a very valuable tool.
Care to expand on how it becomes very valuable?
mogorf is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 12:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 4,220
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 377 Post(s)
Liked: 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
With two subs the phase control becomes a very valuable tool.
Care to expand on how it becomes very valuable?
I believe others in this thread have sufficiently answered this question already.
kbarnes701 likes this.
primetimeguy is online now  
Old 06-14-2014, 12:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 670 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
With two subs the phase control becomes a very valuable tool.
Care to expand on how it becomes very valuable?
I believe others in this thread have sufficiently answered this question already.
So does this mean you don't know? In #7 Alan says:

"7. Adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)".

Yeah, but how can an SLP meter reveal Group Delay? No way, eh? BTW, REW savvy guys have an advantage here, coz there's a radio button in REW called GD. Why not look into it?
mogorf is online now  
 

Tags
Audyssey , Receivers Amplifiers , Kef Kht1005 2se 5 1 Subwoofer Satellite System With C4 Subwoofer Gloss White , 5 6 7 1 7 2 Or 8 1 8 2 One Or Two Subwoofer Compatible 16 Banana Post 2 Rca Speaker Wall Plate For H
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off