"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2381 - AVS Forum
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post #71401 of 72289 Old 06-14-2014, 12:21 PM
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With two subs the phase control becomes a very valuable tool.
Care to expand on how it becomes very valuable?
I believe others in this thread have sufficiently answered this question already.
So does this mean you don't know? In #7 Alan says:

"7. Adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)".

Yeah, but how can an SLP meter reveal Group Delay? No way, eh? BTW, REW savvy guys have an advantage here, coz there's a radio button in REW called GD. Why not look into it?
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post #71402 of 72289 Old 06-14-2014, 12:29 PM
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With two subs the phase control becomes a very valuable tool.
Care to expand on how it becomes very valuable?
I believe others in this thread have sufficiently answered this question already.
So does this mean you don't know? In #7 Alan says:

"7. Adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)".

Yeah, but how can an SLP meter reveal Group Delay? No way, eh? BTW, REW savvy guys have an advantage here, coz there's a radio button in REW called GD. Why not look into it?
No, it means I fully agree with the others who have already posted on why subwoofer phase is a useful adjustment in multiple subwoofer setups.

Your response of "I hope it does" shows you do not know or have any experience with this particular issue/discusison, rather are just using other people's posts on the topic. So I'm taking the high road on this discusison.
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post #71403 of 72289 Old 06-14-2014, 12:45 PM
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With two subs the phase control becomes a very valuable tool.
Care to expand on how it becomes very valuable?
I believe others in this thread have sufficiently answered this question already.
So does this mean you don't know? In #7 Alan says:

"7. Adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)".

Yeah, but how can an SLP meter reveal Group Delay? No way, eh? BTW, REW savvy guys have an advantage here, coz there's a radio button in REW called GD. Why not look into it?
No, it means I fully agree with the others who have already posted on why subwoofer phase is a useful adjustment in multiple subwoofer setups.

Your response of "I hope it does" shows you do not know or have any experience with this particular issue/discusison, rather are just using other people's posts on the topic. So I'm taking the high road on this discusison.
Come on prime, you don't need to be like that. We are in discussion of an issue with different standpoints. Nothing wrong with that on a Forum, I hope.

And the reason I said "I hope it does" was because I never measured GD on my system, but at least I didn't introduce more.

Please convince me that I am wrong and make me say " I stand corrected". I'm partner for discussions like this one as long as we can back-up our posts with real technical reasonings. Quotes also accepted.

Deal?

Take care.
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post #71404 of 72289 Old 06-14-2014, 01:07 PM
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I guess you'll just have to keep on hoping then. :-) Look for phase plots of your sub and speakers and I'm sure you will find they are far from constant. Below is just an example, not your speakers, with multiple 90 deg phase shifts.

I looked up Stereophile mag and while the diagram is OK, your explanation on multiple 90 deg phase shifts is "not OK". The solid line is for impedance and the dotted line is for phase. Please note.

Last edited by mogorf; 06-14-2014 at 01:14 PM.
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post #71405 of 72289 Old 06-14-2014, 01:30 PM
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45 to - 45 is 90deg phase change. I'll help you with the math but that is all.
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post #71406 of 72289 Old 06-14-2014, 02:37 PM
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45 to - 45 is 90deg phase change. I'll help you with the math but that is all.
I'm really sorry to say, but your understanding is completely wrong. The chart you posted of a Dali Zensor 1 speaker (or could be any speaker) shows that the phase of voltage waveform is no longer in phase with the current and it should be quoted as +/- 45 degrees and not 90 degrees. At the extreme of 90 degrees (which would never happen with a real world loudspeaker), peak current is being sourced when voltage is 0, which isn’t too far off from the conditions of a short circuit.

But hey, this has nothing to do with the original topic of the effect of the phase knob on the sub or even multiple subs. Please don't derail the discussion with topics not relevant to the original issue. Let's keep discussing how the phase knob introduces (or not) noticeable artifacts when not set to zero and how it affects group delay.

Anyone?
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post #71407 of 72289 Old 06-14-2014, 04:17 PM
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The phase control produces a phase shift that varies by frequency over some frequency range. This can obviously change the resulting summation of the individual subs.

Group delay is just the slope of the phase response by frequency so if you introduce a phase shift then you will alter the slope and hence alter group delay. If this shift removes, or at least softens, a null it will certainly have "improved" group delay at that point massively. Fundamentally then it boils down to the audibility of phase shifts at low frequencies vs frequency response discrepancies. The latter undoubtedly wins and the phase dial can fix things eq can't touch so it is clearly a useful tool. Whether you should use it or not is just a room specific problem.

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post #71408 of 72289 Old 06-15-2014, 12:46 AM
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oh man, i didnt realize setting up dual subwoofers would be so complicated and a whole other learning experience. i am novice at home theater and it looks like dual sub setup is way too much trouble.

i think ill spend $1200 on the denon x4000 to make it easy for me. it can configure two subs and it should be a lot easier than buying spl meter and doing all the things you guys say. at least i wont have to buy another avr for 5 or so years. ill put up my denon 1712 for sale. thanks fellas for your time and effort.

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post #71409 of 72289 Old 06-15-2014, 05:22 AM
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post #71410 of 72289 Old 06-15-2014, 05:53 AM
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oh man, i didnt realize setting up dual subwoofers would be so complicated and a whole other learning experience. i am novice at home theater and it looks like dual sub setup is way too much trouble.

i think ill spend $1200 on the denon x4000 to make it easy for me. it can configure two subs and it should be a lot easier than buying spl meter and doing all the things you guys say. at least i wont have to buy another avr for 5 or so years. ill put up my denon 1712 for sale. thanks fellas for your time and effort.
Don't let the ill-informed and pointlessly argumentative put you off. It isn't all that difficult to set up dual subs and there can be substantial benefits from doing so. If you get a unit that has Audyssey XT32+SubEQ HT, then it will do most of the work for you. The only thing Audyssey cannot do is optimise the frequency response around the crossover region (the splice). It cannot do this because at no time does Audyssey measure the combined response of the subs and the mains when playing together and it obviously cannot optimise that which it doesn’t measure.

The reason this is important is because around the crossover frequency all the speakers are playing the same frequencies. This is because crossover filters act gently - that is they have a 'slope' and are not 'brick walls'. So if you have set a XO of 80Hz, then both your mains and your subs will be playing some of the frequencies around the 80Hz at the same time. You can see that it is therefore important that the subs and mains are in phase with each other at those critical frequencies because if they are not then one speaker will cancel out the effect of another speaker.

It is also important that the subs are in phase with each other, for the same reason, and sometimes this does not happen after you have run Audyssey. Unlike some, who have only a single subwoofer and no experience with setting up duals, I had this exact issue some time back (it is documented in this thread if Search is now sophisticated enough to find it). At the time I was running dual SVS PC12 NSD subs which have continuously variable phase controls from 0 to 180 degrees. After Audyssey XT32 had finished I had very weak bass. At that time I was using OmniMic (now REW) to measure my in-room response and it showed me that if I changed the phase on one of the subs that my bass became much, much better. I had to move the phase control on one sub from 0 to almost 180 degrees before it all snapped in and both my subs were in phase with each other. The audible and measurable difference was very obvious, so please ignore anyone who tells you there is never any need to adjust phase on one sub in a multiple-sub setup because they are just plain wrong.

Once the phase on the subs has been harmonised, then the sub distance tweak procedure can be used to ensure the best integration of the subs and the mains around the XO. If you download the Guide linked in my signature you will see just how spectacularly this can improve FR around the splice. You do, however, need measuring equipment to do this so that is perhaps something for the future for you.
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post #71411 of 72289 Old 06-15-2014, 05:55 AM
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oh man, i didnt realize setting up dual subwoofers would be so complicated and a whole other learning experience. i am novice at home theater and it looks like dual sub setup is way too much trouble.

i think ill spend $1200 on the denon x4000 to make it easy for me. it can configure two subs and it should be a lot easier than buying spl meter and doing all the things you guys say. at least i wont have to buy another avr for 5 or so years. ill put up my denon 1712 for sale. thanks fellas for your time and effort.
BINGO, we have a winner !!
I was going to write how you would balance two subs with a sound meter with some free software, first to make the two subs act a one (HOPEFULLY) maybe. Than after all the work(fun?) and alot of time you would just let Audyssey blend it all together. Having been there and done that, I can tell you, you are saving alot of time and effort at the startup of your new HT, but be warned two subs is like having two girl friends in the same room ! Next is Xover for your mains to subs, placement could very important if you are doing L/R subs. As said Audyssey won't phase the subs to the mains. Are your mains fullrange , 40/50hz ?

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Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post
oh man, i didnt realize setting up dual subwoofers would be so complicated and a whole other learning experience. i am novice at home theater and it looks like dual sub setup is way too much trouble.

i think ill spend $1200 on the denon x4000 to make it easy for me. it can configure two subs and it should be a lot easier than buying spl meter and doing all the things you guys say. at least i wont have to buy another avr for 5 or so years. ill put up my denon 1712 for sale. thanks fellas for your time and effort.
Upgrading to XT-32 is a great idea. If you do decide to try two subwoofers at some point, don't be discouraged by the potential complexity of it. Our systems are as simple or as complex as the time we are willing to spend on them. You can always follow the standard Audyssey set-up guide and see (hear) how you like the results. Then you can gradually decide whether you want to invest additional time and effort in tweaking things a little.

You got excellent advice IMO on a good way to take full advantage of multiple subs, but it would definitely be a somewhat time-consuming process compared to just running Audyssey and enjoying the SQ. So just run Audyssey and go. The more advanced approach will always be there if you ever want to try it.
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post #71413 of 72289 Old 06-15-2014, 06:13 AM
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post #71414 of 72289 Old 06-15-2014, 07:45 AM
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Don't get me wrong Audyssey is good software, but it could be better and do more to make sure the end user gets the basics tested and tuned. I think most will agree speaker phasing is a very important test and is just crazy to be overlooked..
Audyssey does check phase during the calibration run...

b)1. Why is Audyssey reporting that my speakers are out of phase?

(The link may not work at this time due to the problems caused by the changeover to vBulletin)
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post #71415 of 72289 Old 06-15-2014, 08:36 AM
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Don't get me wrong Audyssey is good software, but it could be better and do more to make sure the end user gets the basics tested and tuned. I think most will agree speaker phasing is a very important test and is just crazy to be overlooked..
Audyssey does check phase during the calibration run...

b)1. Why is Audyssey reporting that my speakers are out of phase?

(The link may not work at this time due to the problems caused by the changeover to vBulletin)
I wired the left main 180 from the right main, ran standard phase tests sounds ( ear and mic measurements ). You know the old sound test of the sound between and the outside the mains. Also run test tones 20hz to 20k. Both my ears and mic measurements showed big changes between in phase and out of phase wiring when both speakers were powered. My tests clearly showed that phasing of the mains does make a audible change one can ear and measure. Audyssey didn't flag the error, which tells me it must be working at some other level of sound that humans can't hear, like light we can't see.
Joe, any specific reason you had in mind for raising the polarity check issue amid a discussion of the usefulness of the phase knob on subs or multiple subs? Properly wiring speakers should be a no-brainer, speaker terminals have different colors, speaker wires have marks. Interesting test you made here, but honestly its like looking into your camera not from the viewfinder but from the lens side. Fun test, yet meaningless, reveals nothing we didn't know before the test, eh?

Let's not confuse phase and polarity!

Last edited by mogorf; 06-15-2014 at 08:42 AM.
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post #71416 of 72289 Old 06-15-2014, 09:23 AM
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this thread is being worked on to fix some transition issues, so it may take a long time to load: this is a temporary thing
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this thread is being worked on to fix some transition issues, so it may take a long time to load: this is a temporary thing
Thanks for that info Mark - this would also probably explain why the FAQ post is taking so long to save following some test edits of mine earlier.
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post #71418 of 72289 Old 06-15-2014, 01:10 PM
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Don't get me wrong Audyssey is good software, but it could be better and do more to make sure the end user gets the basics tested and tuned. I think most will agree speaker phasing is a very important test and is just crazy to be overlooked..
Audyssey does check phase during the calibration run...

b)1. Why is Audyssey reporting that my speakers are out of phase?

(The link may not work at this time due to the problems caused by the changeover to vBulletin)
Wasn't it revealed a while back that Onkyo dropped the polarity check portion of audyssey a few years ago?
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post #71419 of 72289 Old 06-15-2014, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Don't get me wrong Audyssey is good software, but it could be better and do more to make sure the end user gets the basics tested and tuned. I think most will agree speaker phasing is a very important test and is just crazy to be overlooked..
Audyssey does check phase during the calibration run...

b)1. Why is Audyssey reporting that my speakers are out of phase?

(The link may not work at this time due to the problems caused by the changeover to vBulletin)
Wasn't it revealed a while back that Onkyo dropped the polarity check portion of audyssey a few years ago?
Yea, I'm sure it was. Watched alot of HD tv this weekend, as HBO was free to ATT UV customers this weekend, I have the 300 package(all but HBO) so it was a good time to catch up and watch some action /sci fi flicks for free. This was a pop corn weekend for me and of course the little tweaker in me needs to play, its been sometime..
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post #71420 of 72289 Old 06-16-2014, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post
oh man, i didnt realize setting up dual subwoofers would be so complicated and a whole other learning experience. i am novice at home theater and it looks like dual sub setup is way too much trouble.

i think ill spend $1200 on the denon x4000 to make it easy for me. it can configure two subs and it should be a lot easier than buying spl meter and doing all the things you guys say. at least i wont have to buy another avr for 5 or so years. ill put up my denon 1712 for sale. thanks fellas for your time and effort.
Don't let the ill-informed and pointlessly argumentative put you off. It isn't all that difficult to set up dual subs and there can be substantial benefits from doing so. If you get a unit that has Audyssey XT32+SubEQ HT, then it will do most of the work for you. The only thing Audyssey cannot do is optimise the frequency response around the crossover region (the splice). It cannot do this because at no time does Audyssey measure the combined response of the subs and the mains when playing together and it obviously cannot optimise that which it doesn’t measure.

The reason this is important is because around the crossover frequency all the speakers are playing the same frequencies. This is because crossover filters act gently - that is they have a 'slope' and are not 'brick walls'. So if you have set a XO of 80Hz, then both your mains and your subs will be playing some of the frequencies around the 80Hz at the same time. You can see that it is therefore important that the subs and mains are in phase with each other at those critical frequencies because if they are not then one speaker will cancel out the effect of another speaker.

It is also important that the subs are in phase with each other, for the same reason, and sometimes this does not happen after you have run Audyssey. Unlike some, who have only a single subwoofer and no experience with setting up duals, I had this exact issue some time back (it is documented in this thread if Search is now sophisticated enough to find it). At the time I was running dual SVS PC12 NSD subs which have continuously variable phase controls from 0 to 180 degrees. After Audyssey XT32 had finished I had very weak bass. At that time I was using OmniMic (now REW) to measure my in-room response and it showed me that if I changed the phase on one of the subs that my bass became much, much better. I had to move the phase control on one sub from 0 to almost 180 degrees before it all snapped in and both my subs were in phase with each other. The audible and measurable difference was very obvious, so please ignore anyone who tells you there is never any need to adjust phase on one sub in a multiple-sub setup because they are just plain wrong.

Once the phase on the subs has been harmonized, then the sub distance tweak procedure can be used to ensure the best integration of the subs and the mains around the XO. If you download the Guide linked in my signature you will see just how spectacularly this can improve FR around the splice. You do, however, need measuring equipment to do this so that is perhaps something for the future for you.
This is the typically problem of such on-line forums where the less technically savvy people have the biggest voice. They "harmonize" their subs without knowing what they are doing just because they picked-up "work-arounds" while massively googling subjects with the lack of understanding what is exactly behind.

Phase has always been an issue engineers had to take care of when it popped-up. Some of the younger ones might not remember the purple-green-ish cast of NTSC televisions in the US that were caused by phase issues of vacuum tubes in the early day, then came the PAL color system in Europe (where PAL stands for Phase Alternation Line), which means every second line in the color channel was an inverse of the first one, thus enabling compensation of any phase alteration of a first line resulting in color fidelity. Good old "hue" control was made to take care of NTSC's phase issues to some extent. But that's history.

Yeap, phase is phase, regardless of it being an audio signal or a video signal, it's there as an issue to be taken care of.

Now, there are still those, who artificially introduce a massive phase shift into their systems with the belief that they are doing it right, yet the only thing they achieve is "Super Preference" with a massive touch of placebo. And as we know there is nothing wrong with preference when it is firstly done by setting up for reference. Motto: phase is your enemy in HT systems. It can only do good for a tremelo guitar amp or the like. See here.

Hope this helps clear matter (for those who don't want to get it wrong).
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post #71421 of 72289 Old 06-16-2014, 05:16 PM
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This is the typically problem of such on-line forums where the less technically savvy people have the biggest voice. They "harmonize" their subs without knowing what they are doing just because they picked-up "work-arounds" while massively googling subjects with the lack of understanding what is exactly behind.

Phase has always been an issue engineers had to take care of when it popped-up. Some of the younger ones might not remember the purple-green-ish cast of NTSC televisions in the US that were caused by phase issues of vacuum tubes in the early day, then came the PAL color system in Europe (where PAL stands for Phase Alternation Line), which means every second line in the color channel was an inverse of the first one, thus enabling compensation of any phase alteration of a first line resulting in color fidelity. Good old "hue" control was made to take care of NTSC's phase issues to some extent. But that's history.

Yeap, phase is phase, regardless of it being an audio signal or a video signal, it's there as an issue to be taken care of.

Now, there are still those, who artificially introduce a massive phase shift into their systems with the belief that they are doing it right, yet the only thing they achieve is "Super Preference" with a massive touch of placebo. And as we know there is nothing wrong with preference when it is firstly done by setting up for reference. Motto: phase is your enemy in HT systems. It can only do good for a tremelo guitar amp or the like. See here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T_L4qYRi7s

Hope this helps clear matter (for those who don't want to get it wrong).
^^^^^ Have you ever installed a multi sub Home Theater system?

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post #71422 of 72289 Old 06-16-2014, 05:17 PM
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^^^^^ Have you ever installed a multi sub Home Theater system?
Have you ever studied phase issues?
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post #71423 of 72289 Old 06-16-2014, 05:22 PM
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Have you ever studied phase issues?
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^^^^^ Have you ever installed a multi sub Home Theater system?
Way to go - answer a question with another question - I haven't studied "phase issues" to the extent the more knowledgeable members in the forum have - but you seem to be in denial regarding proven techniques to maximize multi sub performance.

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post #71424 of 72289 Old 06-16-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post
Way to go - answer a question with another question - I haven't studied "phase issues" to the extent the more knowledgeable member in the forum have - but you seem to be in denial regarding proven techniques to maximize multi sub performance.
gg, those techniques are not proven, they are just a kinda "best practice" folks have come up with on forums like this one, yet lack any electronic rationale. Please don't be confused by so-called "more knowledgeable" members. How do you "measure" their knowledge?
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post #71425 of 72289 Old 06-16-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
gg, those techniques are not proven, they are just a kinda "best practice" folks have come up with on forums like this one, yet lack any electronic rationale. Please don't be confused by so-called "more knowledgeable" members. How do you "measure" their knowledge?
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Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post
Way to go - answer a question with another question - I haven't studied "phase issues" to the extent the more knowledgeable members in the forum have - but you seem to be in denial regarding proven techniques to maximize multi sub performance.
Well - I answered your question regarding experience with "phase issues" but you seem to have danced around my question - Do you have a multi sub system? Have you ever worked on a system with multiple subs? Have you ever tested the "Distance Tweak" process. By the way - I am not confused and there are multiple REW graphs posted on this and other AVS threads documenting the results.

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post #71426 of 72289 Old 06-16-2014, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post
Well - I answered your question regarding experience with "phase issues" but you seem to have danced around my question - Do you have a multi sub system? Have you ever worked on a system with multiple subs? Have you ever tested the "Distance Tweak" process. By the way - I am not confused and there are multiple REW graphs posted on this and other AVS threads documenting the results.
Sorry, you seem to be binded to multi sub systems. Phase is a much broader issue you need to look into before adapting it to multi sub systems. Agree? Forget REW graphs for the time being, please.
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post #71427 of 72289 Old 06-17-2014, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Sorry, you seem to be binded to multi sub systems. Phase is a much broader issue you need to look into before adapting it to multi sub systems. Agree? Forget REW graphs for the time being, please.


This is not about phase relationship between voltage and current, this is about acoustic phase and getting the best summation for multiple subwoofers.

Obviously you have no experience in the matter, yet you continue to play the role of an expert. Your posts are misleading and as others have pointed out, all you do is cite what you have read on the Internet that was written by other people.
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Last edited by markrubin; 06-17-2014 at 02:16 AM.
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post #71428 of 72289 Old 06-17-2014, 02:17 AM
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move on please
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post #71429 of 72289 Old 06-17-2014, 05:29 AM
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It is also important that the subs are in phase with each other, for the same reason, and sometimes this does not happen after you have run Audyssey. Unlike some, who have only a single subwoofer and no experience with setting up duals, I had this exact issue some time back (it is documented in this thread if Search is now sophisticated enough to find it). At the time I was running dual SVS PC12 NSD subs which have continuously variable phase controls from 0 to 180 degrees. After Audyssey XT32 had finished I had very weak bass. At that time I was using OmniMic (now REW) to measure my in-room response and it showed me that if I changed the phase on one of the subs that my bass became much, much better. I had to move the phase control on one sub from 0 to almost 180 degrees before it all snapped in and both my subs were in phase with each other. The audible and measurable difference was very obvious, so please ignore anyone who tells you there is never any need to adjust phase on one sub in a multiple-sub setup because they are just plain wrong.
Wow, Is your experience a common one ? I know one day I will be in the market for a new AVR. I'm sure I would end up with a high end unit, maybe with Audyssey. Audyssey PRO maybe the way to go, because it begs for human intervention.

Last edited by joehonest; 06-17-2014 at 05:38 AM.
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post #71430 of 72289 Old 06-17-2014, 09:19 AM
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FAQ UPDATE NEWS!

The FAQ is now 95% fully functional once more.


I have remade and tested all the 'internal' hyperlinks and they are now all working. I have tested some of the links to external sites and all those I have tested are working. I will test them all asap. Please bear with me while I finalize testing to bring the FAQ back to its usual 100% functionality over the next few days following the changeover to vBulletin software.

The Audyssey 101 is still not working as intended due to spoilers not being translated correctly in the changeover. I will be working on fixing this soon.

Last edited by kbarnes701; 06-17-2014 at 10:17 AM.
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