"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2382 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
Thread Tools
post #71431 of 73139 Old 06-17-2014, 10:20 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
FAQ UPDATE NEWS!

The FAQ is now 95% fully functional once more.


I have remade and tested all the 'internal' hyperlinks and they are now all working. I have tested some of the links to external sites and all those I have tested are working. I will test them all asap. Please bear with me while I finalize testing to bring the FAQ back to its usual 100% functionality over the next few days following the changeover to vBulletin software.

The Audyssey 101 is still not working as intended due to spoilers not being translated correctly in the changeover. I will be working on fixing this soon.
primetimeguy likes this.

Last edited by kbarnes701; 06-17-2014 at 11:16 AM.
kbarnes701 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #71432 of 73139 Old 06-17-2014, 02:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701
It is also important that the subs are in phase with each other, for the same reason, and sometimes this does not happen after you have run Audyssey. Unlike some, who have only a single subwoofer and no experience with setting up duals, I had this exact issue some time back (it is documented in this thread if Search is now sophisticated enough to find it). At the time I was running dual SVS PC12 NSD subs which have continuously variable phase controls from 0 to 180 degrees. After Audyssey XT32 had finished I had very weak bass. At that time I was using OmniMic (now REW) to measure my in-room response and it showed me that if I changed the phase on one of the subs that my bass became much, much better. I had to move the phase control on one sub from 0 to almost 180 degrees before it all snapped in and both my subs were in phase with each other. The audible and measurable difference was very obvious, so please ignore anyone who tells you there is never any need to adjust phase on one sub in a multiple-sub setup because they are just plain wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Wow, Is your experience a common one ? I know one day I will be in the market for a new AVR. I'm sure I would end up with a high end unit, maybe with Audyssey. Audyssey PRO maybe the way to go, because it begs for human intervention.
I couldn’t say whether it is commonplace or not, but it happens often enough for there to be considerable information on it on AVS. What you need to decide is this: do you follow the advice and suggestions of people with real hands-on experience of setting up multiple subs - including such respected members as Mark Seaton of SeatonSound, Ed Mullen of SVS, Craig John, AustinJerry, gg and many more - or do you follow the advice of people who use a single sub and have no hands-on experience of setting up dual subs at all?

If you download and read the Sub Distance Tweak Guide linked in my sig, you will see that it contains contributions from various of the people mentioned above, together with graphs which show the significant difference that adjusting sub distances/delays can make around the splice. The notion that Audyssey is "set and forget" in this regard is very naive.

Ultimately, the choice is yours of course. You can run Audyssey and sit back and say you're done. Or you can make the adjustments of the kind recently discussed in this thread and obtain significantly superior results, as all of us have done when setting up our multiple subwoofer systems.

There is no doubt that multiple subs can make a huge difference to the smoothness of bass in a given room, creating far less seat to seat variation. The less the seat to seat variation in bass response there is, the better Audyssey can calibrate the system. But setting up multiple subs is more difficult, and requires more effort, than sticking one sub in a corner, running Audyssey and sitting back and thinking you have a great bass response. Suffice it to say, those of us running multiple subs would never go back to just one sub. And guess what - we are not all idiots either and we have learned from others with more knowledge and our own hands-on experience.
RapalloAV, twain250 and jjazdk like this.

Last edited by kbarnes701; 06-17-2014 at 02:19 PM.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #71433 of 73139 Old 06-17-2014, 04:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked: 134
The phase knob that allows continuous settings from 0 to 180 degrees works only for one frequency. This should be common knowledge by now. Hands up please if you know on your sub(s) what this one frequency is. Hands up again if you know how phase is shifted at other frequencies (aka phase vs. frequency). Hands up if you think distance setup by RC (not limited to Audyssey) can set phase/ group delay evenly throughout the frequency band in interest.

Hands up if you understood what I described in my previous post with NTSC television phase issues in relation to purple-greenish cast and how it was solved by PAL.

Hands up if you think such "best practices" will make your system sound not better, but just different.

I don't expect any definite replies.
mogorf is offline  
post #71434 of 73139 Old 06-17-2014, 05:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 8,040
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1144 Post(s)
Liked: 922
AustinJerry is online now  
post #71435 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 02:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Wow, thanks Jerry for agreeing with me with so many hands up. They come handy in a household, eh!
mogorf is offline  
post #71436 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 05:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
joehonest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

""The notion that Audyssey is "set and forget" in this regard is very naive.""

""Ultimately, the choice is yours of course. You can run Audyssey and sit back and say you're done.
And guess what - we are not all idiots either and we have learned from others with more knowledge and our own hands-on experience.""

Which to take ? The BLUE pill or the RED pill, the choice is yours. Audyssey is still a work in progress at any and all levels.

Last edited by joehonest; 06-18-2014 at 05:17 AM.
joehonest is offline  
post #71437 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 05:42 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Which to take ? The BLUE pill or the RED pill, the choice is yours. Audyssey is still a work in progress at any and all levels.
XT32 is probably currently the best automated REQ there is, at anything like sensible money. It is not a work in progress IMO and it does what it does very, very well. But it is not "perfect" and as a result a system can benefit from additional work to improve the sound quality. Some choose to do this work and some choose to believe that Audyssey is perfect. It's an individual choice which way you decide to do it.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #71438 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 06:36 AM
Advanced Member
 
joehonest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
XT32 is probably currently the best automated REQ there is, at anything like sensible money. It is not a work in progress IMO and it does what it does very, very well. But it is not "perfect" and as a result a system can benefit from additional work to improve the sound quality. Some choose to do this work and some choose to believe that Audyssey is perfect. It's an individual choice which way you decide to do it.
Yea, but in your experience with dual subs, I would see it as a total failure. You are someone with much knowledge by experience, you know if its working more or less. From your posts about your initial dual sub auto setup with XT32, Audyssey did more harm than good. Because of your experience you knew what to expect, you took it to the next level because you can. Many others would, simply put, would of been screwed out of the benefits of dual subs. If you can, tell us why the initial dual sub auto setup failed, and what and how you did to fix it. What did you have to do/ change to make XT32 do its magic. How many changes and tweaks from your initial setup did it take to get what you wanted?
Could someone without your experience fix this issue if it happen to them?

Last edited by joehonest; 06-18-2014 at 07:29 AM.
joehonest is offline  
post #71439 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 06:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
joehonest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Subs can have a continuous settings from 0 to 180 or a 0 / 180 switch, would both fix the issue you had?
Did having continuous settings from 0 to 180 cause your problem?
If I was in the market for a new sub(s) what should be my first choice, many high end subs have continuous settings from 0 to 180..
I see many new AVRs now have 0 / 180 sub phase setting in the menu, but than again you got to know what to look and listen for,
its to bad, Audyssey tunes up your system but doesn't take it out for a test ride...
Arrogant is the one word that describes Audysseys marketing

Last edited by joehonest; 06-18-2014 at 07:14 AM.
joehonest is offline  
post #71440 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 07:04 AM
Senior Member
 
KevinG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: S. Jersey
Posts: 462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Subs can have a continuous settings from 0 to 180 or a 0 / 180 switch, would both fix the issue you had?
Did having continuous settings from 0 to 180 cause your problem?
If I was in the market for a new sub(s) what should be my first choice, many high end subs have continuous settings from 0 to 180..
Doesn't *every* sub in existence have a 0/180 switch? All you do is swap the red(+) and black(-) cable and you are 180 degrees out of phase. Right?
KevinG is offline  
post #71441 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 07:11 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Yea, but in your experience with dual subs, I would see it as a total failure. You are someone with much knowledge by experience, you know if its working more or less. From your posts about your initial dual sub auto setup with XT32, Audyssey did more harm than good. Because of your experience you knew what to expect, you took it to the next level because you can. Many others would, simply put, would of been screwed out of the benefits of dual subs. If you can, tell us why the initial dual sub auto setup failed, and what and how you did to fix it. What did you have to do/ change to make XT32 do its magic. How many changes and tweaks from your initial setup did it take to get what you wanted?
Could someone without your experience fix this issue if it happen it them?
You're conflating the general Audyssey setup with the setting up of dual subs. They are not necessarily the same thing. Audyssey XT32 + SubEQ HT sets the levels and distances (delays) of each sub independently and then EQs the subs as a pair. In this it generally does a good job. But setting up dual subs is not a simple plug and play issue. The subs interract with each other and with the room and their placement in the room can be very important in getting the best from the system. We cannot expect Audyssey to work miracles. Most of us have realistic expectations of what it can do and it does work very well for most people. And most people use just a single sub anyway. I’d say that people with dual sub setups generally are the more experienced people: not many, I’d guess, start with multiple subs. Most will set up a system with one sub and then go on from there, using experience acquired over time.

Audyssey did not do "more harm than good" when it set up my system. It just failed to set it up as well as I could myself, with some intervention. It comes back to what you believe - if you believe that Audyssey is perfect then the idea of any sort of manual intervention is going to be anathema to you. But if, like the more experienced and knowledgeable members here, you believe that Audyssey is a good tool but good tools also rely on the skill of the user to get the best out of them, then you will want to try to optimise what Audyssey has done. I am in the latter camp.

I would say to you that if you get a dual sub system and you use XT32 to set it up, the chances are that it will do a good job most of the time. But, not being perfect, it will fail to do the best job some of the time. If this happens to you, please seek advice in this thread when you have a specific query or issue to discuss. Discussing it in the abstract like this is largely a waste of time as every setup and every room is different.
RapalloAV and twain250 like this.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #71442 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 07:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Subs can have a continuous settings from 0 to 180 or a 0 / 180 switch, would both fix the issue you had?
Did having continuous settings from 0 to 180 cause your problem?
If I was in the market for a new sub(s) what should be my first choice, many high end subs have continuous settings from 0 to 180..
I see many new AVRs now have 0 / 180 sub phase setting in the menu, but than again you got to know what to look and listen for,
its to bad, Audyssey tunes up your system but doesn't take it out for a test ride...
Arrogant is the one word that describes Audssey
You won't draw me into agreeing with your negative comments about Audyssey. XT32 is the best, affordable REQ system there is IMO. It is not perfect and enthusiasts can and do improve on XT32 calibrations all the time. This is not the appropriate thread to advise you on the choice of subwoofers.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #71443 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 07:14 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
Doesn't *every* sub in existence have a 0/180 switch? All you do is swap the red(+) and black(-) cable and you are 180 degrees out of phase. Right?
Polarity and phase aren't the same thing.

http://community.calrec.com/phase-an...in-60-seconds/
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #71444 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 08:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
joehonest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I would only guess by now, you and others think I'm down on Audyssey, and that's is a yes and no. I to have much experience with setting up HT with Audyssey like it or not, it needs way more user input/ time than I care to spend on it. I would think the more you spend $$$ the less work you should need to do to get it to work properly, sure tweaks like boosting/ cutting the level of sub or center channel output to your tast is ok by me. Anything more is just a testament to the weakness in its design and the ability to do what it claims. Yes, I'm doing my homework for my next HT....
Thanks to threads like this, I get a heads up, and not just hoping for better.
I try to be positive but it always turns negative, dammit...

Last edited by joehonest; 06-18-2014 at 08:18 AM.
joehonest is offline  
post #71445 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 08:05 AM
Senior Member
 
KevinG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: S. Jersey
Posts: 462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Polarity and phase aren't the same thing.

http://community.calrec.com/phase-an...in-60-seconds/
Okay, but that article also states this:

"Technically the phase reverse, or 180 degree phase button on a console should be labelled ‘polarity inversion’ but convention over time has led some to use this ambiguous term ‘phase’."

Doesn't that mean that a polarity swap yields the same thing as a 180 degree phase shift (albeit across the entire frequency domain, unlike the description of phase knobs here which limits them to a single frequency)?
KevinG is offline  
post #71446 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 08:19 AM
Say No to Auto EQ
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 8,174
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 948 Post(s)
Liked: 1032
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
This is the typically problem of such on-line forums where the less technically savvy people have the biggest voice. They "harmonize" their subs without knowing what they are doing just because they picked-up "work-arounds" while massively googling subjects with the lack of understanding what is exactly behind.

Now, there are still those, who artificially introduce a massive phase shift into their systems with the belief that they are doing it right, yet the only thing they achieve is "Super Preference" with a massive touch of placebo. And as we know there is nothing wrong with preference when it is firstly done by setting up for reference. Motto: phase is your enemy in HT systems.

Hope this helps clear matter (for those who don't want to get it wrong).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
gg, those techniques are not proven, they are just a kinda "best practice" folks have come up with on forums like this one, yet lack any electronic rationale. Please don't be confused by so-called "more knowledgeable" members. How do you "measure" their knowledge?
So I get an entire post wiped off this thread when I ask you to prove your distaste for phase by showing some actual PROOF, yet these two blatant retorts are allowed to remain? Mark, give me a break here man!!!

Not only is this a direct stab at me, I find (completely acceptable) disagreement with these statements, as others do too. I left this thread for obvious reasons along with several other VERY knowledgeable members as we continued to get shot down, only to return to attempt to actually HELP members find the correct way to set up more complex systems where they were at times getting misguided and would likely be spinning in circles with their very nice theater systems.

Every post I have entered has given the OP advice that is accurate, well tested and documented, and not just "well audyssey Chris doesn't suggest it so it must not be good." IF someone comes on here and shows me some definitive proof that I am indeed completely wrong here, I am all ears.

Just like any adjustment in HT, phase can be done very wrong, but if properly implemented, can yield superior results than just plug and play. Same goes for audyssey, you gotta follow the FAQ graciously provided by Keith and you can have a great experience. Same goes for phase, do it right, and the benefits are VERY clear.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread


Last edited by beastaudio; 06-18-2014 at 08:22 AM.
beastaudio is offline  
post #71447 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 08:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,099
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 909 Post(s)
Liked: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
The phase knob that allows continuous settings from 0 to 180 degrees works only for one frequency. This should be common knowledge by now. Hands up please if you know on your sub(s) what this one frequency is. Hands up again if you know how phase is shifted at other frequencies (aka phase vs. frequency). Hands up if you think distance setup by RC (not limited to Audyssey) can set phase/ group delay evenly throughout the frequency band in interest.

Hands up if you understood what I described in my previous post with NTSC television phase issues in relation to purple-greenish cast and how it was solved by PAL.

Hands up if you think such "best practices" will make your system sound not better, but just different.

I don't expect any definite replies.
OK Feri, I'm starting to come around to your way of thinking here.....but I want to prove it to myself!

I'm getting a laptop in a couple days solely so I can run REW easier and will be doing some measurements this weekend (if time allows).

I have the ability to delay each of my 4 subs via MiniDSP. I will most likely have 2 subs up front and 2 in back although I have had all 4 in back at one time with good results.

Could you describe to me in detail how you would set up these 4 subs? I am going to give it a sincere try and I will report my findings here.
Alan P is online now  
post #71448 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 09:33 AM
Senior Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 299
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
So I get an entire post wiped off this thread when I ask you to prove your distaste for phase by showing some actual PROOF, yet these two blatant retorts are allowed to remain? Mark, give me a break here man!!!

Not only is this a direct stab at me, I find (completely acceptable) disagreement with these statements, as others do too. I left this thread for obvious reasons along with several other VERY knowledgeable members as we continued to get shot down, only to return to attempt to actually HELP members find the correct way to set up more complex systems where they were at times getting misguided and would likely be spinning in circles with their very nice theater systems.

Every post I have entered has given the OP advice that is accurate, well tested and documented, and not just "well audyssey Chris doesn't suggest it so it must not be good." IF someone comes on here and shows me some definitive proof that I am indeed completely wrong here, I am all ears.

Just like any adjustment in HT, phase can be done very wrong, but if properly implemented, can yield superior results than just plug and play. Same goes for audyssey, you gotta follow the FAQ graciously provided by Keith and you can have a great experience. Same goes for phase, do it right, and the benefits are VERY clear.
I wish some of the more knowledgeable members of this thread (and you are definitely one of them) had not left, although I have understood your frustration. I wonder, though, if the frustration would be less if you could avoid being drawn into pointless and ultimately unwinnable debates. You and several others offer very insightful advice which is both interesting and helpful. I am sure that I am not alone in appreciating those contributions.

I think sometimes the problem might be becoming too emotionally invested in the discussions, and in the potential misinformation floating around. IMO you rarely (never?) actually win an internet debate; not if winning consists of capitulation by the other participant(s). The most you can do is provide sensible, knowledgeable, and objective information and rely on the perspicacity of the individuals reading the thread to sort it all out. Many of us probably read much more frequently than we post, and you would probably be surprised at how easily we can separate the wheat from the chaff.

I truly wish you and several others would post more often and trust the "silent majority" to appreciate and benefit from your contributions.

Regards,
Mike
Alan P likes this.

Last edited by mthomas47; 06-19-2014 at 08:42 AM.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #71449 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 10:32 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
I would only guess by now, you and others think I'm down on Audyssey, and that's is a yes and no. I to have much experience with setting up HT with Audyssey like it or not, it needs way more user input/ time than I care to spend on it. I would think the more you spend $$$ the less work you should need to do to get it to work properly, sure tweaks like boosting/ cutting the level of sub or center channel output to your tast is ok by me. Anything more is just a testament to the weakness in its design and the ability to do what it claims. Yes, I'm doing my homework for my next HT....
Thanks to threads like this, I get a heads up, and not just hoping for better.
I try to be positive but it always turns negative, dammit...
It's entirely up to you. If you find something that works better for you than XT32, then use it.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #71450 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 10:56 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I wish some of the more knowledgeable members of this thread (and you are definitely one of them) had not left, although I have understood your frustration. I wonder, though, if the frustration would be less if you could avoid being drawn into pointless and ultimately unwinnable debates. You and several others offer very insightful advice which is both interesting and helpful. I am sure that I am not alone in appreciating those contributions.

I think sometimes the problem might be becoming too emotionally invested in the discussions, and in the potential misinformation floating around. IMO you rarely (never?) actually win an internet debate; not if winning consists of capitulation by the other participant(s). The most you can do is provide sensible, knowledgeable, and objective information and rely on the perspicacity of the individuals reading the thread to sort it all out. Many of us probably read much more frequently than we post, and you would probably be surprised at how easily we can separate the wheat from the chaff.

I truly wish you and several other would post more often and trust the "silent majority" to appreciate and benefit from your contributions.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike - as you know I left this thread too, along with many of the thread's most respected contributors, and I am only here temporarily while the changeover to vBulletin is in progress. I will then be gone again other than to post FAQ links and updates as required.

The problem arises when there is so much disinformation spread that some users, myself included, feel compelled to step in and contest it. It is not to try to win an argument as such (there is no value in winning an argument with the perpetually wrong) but rather to stop the disinformation from becoming part of the lore of this thread. Newbies are especially susceptible to being misled and some of us feel a sort of responsibility I guess to try to help newcomers to the hobby, and to Audyssey in particular. We were all newbies once.

I am surprised and saddened that serial perpetrators of disinformation are allowed to get away with it and the thread disruption which inevitably follows from it, but it is not my place to comment on such matters.
KK in CT, ggsantafe and twain250 like this.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #71451 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 11:29 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,277
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Liked: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
You won't draw me into agreeing with your negative comments about Audyssey. XT32 is the best, affordable REQ system there is IMO. It is not perfect and enthusiasts can and do improve on XT32 calibrations all the time. This is not the appropriate thread to advise you on the choice of subwoofers.
The best, affordable automated REQ there is, you mean . For this audience, I would go so far as to say that given the current state of the consumer A/V market in 2014, the presence/absence of Audyssey XT32 is a make or break feature for considering a pre/pro or AVR, due to the full range correction applied to all channels and the filter resolution. Practically speaking, that limits you to D&M offerings today if you want an AIO solution in your processor. I'll skip the rehash of competitive REQ and their shortcomings, which can be found elsewhere (often in your words, Keith). But as a single critical - albeit not the exclusive for all users and configurations - component for REQ, XT32 is the best there currently is within the mainstream consumer A/V market to date.

However, where we disagree is where I would define affordable....if you think of REQ as being a centerpiece of your system, and a long-term value like a car purchase that will supercede other components in your system for life expectancy, as well as your a long-term learning experience to hone your skills for parameter usage and target curve formulation, affordable may take one into the five figures and change the rules....

On the other end of the spectrum are MiniDSP's NanoAVR and 10x10 HD, which offer flexibility with selectable filter parameters, and semi-automation with REW's Auto EQ as the driving force. However, there's a limit as to the number of filters you can use for correction, and you would need analog pre-out as input, meaning separates (or in the case of the NanoAVR, a component such as an Oppo 103 as your HDMI-based input). Plus with the advent of 3D audio, these are limited to 7.1 configurations, and hence may be obsolete for many users in the near future. That's not so true for D&M A/V with Audyssey, or for a Trinnov or Datasat with expandable channel capability.

There's also Dirac RCS, which is a multichannel, mixed phase solution that is PC-only in the "affordable" as well as "available" camp, but there hasn't been conclusive data to suggest that its ability to provide frequency response correction matches Audyssey's.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

The Audyssey FAQ Guide can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/...


Last edited by sdrucker; 06-18-2014 at 11:41 AM.
sdrucker is online now  
post #71452 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 11:37 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
The best, affordable automated REQ there is, you mean . For this audience, I would go so far as to say that given the current state of the consumer A/V market in 2014, the presence/absence of Audyssey XT32 is a make or break feature for considering a pre/pro or AVR, due to the full range correction applied to all channels and the filter resolution. Practically speaking, that limits you to D&M offerings today if you want an AIO solution in your processor. I'll skip the rehash of competitive REQ and their shortcomings, which can be found elsewhere (often in your words, Keith).


However, where we disagree is where I would define affordable....if you think of REQ as being a centerpiece of your system, and a long-term value like a car purchase that will supercede other components in your system for life expectancy as well as your ability to hone your skills with the tool, affordable may take one into the five figures and change the rules....


On the other end of the spectrum is are MiniDSP's NanoAVR and 10x10 HD, which offer flexibility with selectable filter parameters, and semi-automation with REW's Auto EQ as the driving force. However, there's a limit as to the number of filters you can use for correction, and you would need analog pre-out as input, meaning separates (or in the case of the NanoAVR, a component such as an Oppo 103 as your HDMI-based input).
Yes I did mean 'automated'. What I mean by 'affordable' really is 'within the financial grasp of most people'. I don't think that $20,000 REQ systems come into any definition of affordable I can think of but I admire the self-justification for your probable purchase in the not too distant future

The mini-DSP type solutions, while terrific, don't come into my definition of 'automated' in any way, shape or form and IMO are for the more advanced tweaker. But yes, they can be terrific alternatives to Audyssey in the right hands, and also can be used to refine Audyssey's automated results, as detailed in the FAQ Addendum.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #71453 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 01:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 25,085
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1196 Post(s)
Liked: 1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
You're conflating the general Audyssey setup with the setting up of dual subs. They are not necessarily the same thing. Audyssey XT32 + SubEQ HT sets the levels and distances (delays) of each sub independently and then EQs the subs as a pair. In this it generally does a good job. But setting up dual subs is not a simple plug and play issue.
The important thing to keep in mind here though is that the genesis of this whole mess is that the OP does NOT have XT32, and thus does NOT have SubEQ HT. So while I know you aren't directly addressing this (I just pulled your quote because it was topical) all the discussion of XT32 and SubEQ HT is essentially irrelevant.

The question was about multi sub setups WITHOUT the benefit of SubEQ HT, and thus the processor has absolutely no ability to set electrical delays independently for each subwoofer. Thus, you are essentially crossing your fingers and hoping the subwoofers interact well. So while the continuous phase knob may not be a perfect tool, and can introduce some harmful side effects, it is your ONLY tool (short of relocating the subs) in trying to improve the interaction of the two subs in this situation and give Audyssey the best "starting position" to do its magic. This point though is obviously lost on some.
twain250 and IgorZep like this.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is online now  
post #71454 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 01:05 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The important thing to keep in mind here though is that the genesis of this whole mess is that the OP does NOT have XT32, and thus does NOT have SubEQ HT. So while I know you aren't directly addressing this (I just pulled your quote because it was topical) all the discussion of XT32 and SubEQ HT is essentially irrelevant.
Yes, I agree. I was replying to joehonest's issues there really and trying to give him an answer to his concern over his next AVR and what it should or shouldn't do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The question was about multi sub setups WITHOUT the benefit of SubEQ HT, and thus the processor has absolutely no ability to set electrical delays independently for each subwoofer. Thus, you are essentially crossing your fingers and hoping the subwoofers interact well. So while the continuous phase knob may not be a perfect tool, and can introduce some harmful side effects, it is your ONLY tool (short of relocating the subs) in trying to improve the interaction of the two subs in this situation and give Audyssey the best "starting position" to do its magic. This point though is obviously lost on some.
Agreed entirely.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #71455 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 01:21 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,277
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Liked: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The question was about multi sub setups WITHOUT the benefit of SubEQ HT, and thus the processor has absolutely no ability to set electrical delays independently for each subwoofer. Thus, you are essentially crossing your fingers and hoping the subwoofers interact well. So while the continuous phase knob may not be a perfect tool, and can introduce some harmful side effects, it is your ONLY tool (short of relocating the subs) in trying to improve the interaction of the two subs in this situation and give Audyssey the best "starting position" to do its magic. This point though is obviously lost on some.

The best tool to give Audyssey a starting point, yes, but not the only tool short of sub relocation and/or adding additional subs beyond the pair available.

For completion, I would note that the poster might add a MiniDSP unit or an AntiMode to provide an external ability to change the delay and level of each sub individually pre-Audyssey, so that Audyssey can EQ the summated sub response as one (note that the user may still need to adjust the delay within Audyssey to optimize the subwoofer/mains crossover, as many including myself do).

The MiniDSP in particular has binary (but not continuous) 0/180 phase inversion, as well as offering additional PEQ and high/low pass filter capabilities if desired.

However, either of these units would require OmniMic or REW for measuring, as well as a compatible laptop, and a time investment to build a learning curve. Not something for a casual user or a "set and forget" consumer, but ultimately worth the time IMO.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

The Audyssey FAQ Guide can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/...

sdrucker is online now  
post #71456 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 01:30 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 25,085
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1196 Post(s)
Liked: 1611
Thanks Pedantic Stu. I was implicitly assuming a lack of other gear in this context.

Go back to trying to self-rationalize how a five-figure REQ solution is "affordable"

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is online now  
post #71457 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 01:37 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,277
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Liked: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Thanks Pedantic Stu. I was implicitly assuming a lack of other gear in this context.

Go back to trying to self-rationalize how a five-figure REQ solution is "affordable"

Well, I'm wearing my pedantic hat today. You did say ONLY....


That answer would be way OT here, but it's a re-imaging of what a pre/pro or processor represents, and how/what I/O sources feed into it. Or maybe I had too much French wine on my recent business trip to Paris .

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

The Audyssey FAQ Guide can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/...

sdrucker is online now  
post #71458 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 01:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
The best tool to give Audyssey a starting point, yes, but not the only tool short of sub relocation and/or adding additional subs beyond the pair available.

For completion, I would note that the poster might add a MiniDSP unit or an AntiMode to provide an external ability to change the delay and level of each sub individually pre-Audyssey, so that Audyssey can EQ the summated sub response as one (note that the user may still need to adjust the delay within Audyssey to optimize the subwoofer/mains crossover, as many including myself do).

The MiniDSP in particular has binary (but not continuous) 0/180 phase inversion, as well as offering additional PEQ and high/low pass filter capabilities if desired.

However, either of these units would require OmniMic or REW for measuring, as well as a compatible laptop, and a time investment to build a learning curve. Not something for a casual user or a "set and forget" consumer, but ultimately worth the time IMO.
Stu, this whole issue once again boils down to preference. There are "tools" that will yield ruler flat fr response, yet screw up phase vs. frequency which means for the sub(s), in a say 15 - 80 Hz range, even though the magnitude has been rectified, but now lower bass will reach your ears somewhat later that higher bass. When eliminated in Layman's its usually describes as having "tighter bass". I for one would opt for a slight unevenness in fr down at the bass department instead of a messed up (read gradually changing) phase vs. frequency response. But that's just me.

Let's not forget that the variable phase shifters work "variably" at different frequencies causing such anomalies. This point though is obviously lost on some. (Words borrowed from batpig.)
mogorf is offline  
post #71459 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 01:51 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Thanks Pedantic Stu. I was implicitly assuming a lack of other gear in this context.

Go back to trying to self-rationalize how a five-figure REQ solution is "affordable"
LOL! Give him a break - he has to convince himself first. It's practice for the next, and most important stage: convincing his wife.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #71460 of 73139 Old 06-18-2014, 01:55 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 19,672
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2522 Post(s)
Liked: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
The best tool to give Audyssey a starting point, yes, but not the only tool short of sub relocation and/or adding additional subs beyond the pair available.

For completion, I would note that the poster might add a MiniDSP unit or an AntiMode to provide an external ability to change the delay and level of each sub individually pre-Audyssey, so that Audyssey can EQ the summated sub response as one (note that the user may still need to adjust the delay within Audyssey to optimize the subwoofer/mains crossover, as many including myself do).

The MiniDSP in particular has binary (but not continuous) 0/180 phase inversion, as well as offering additional PEQ and high/low pass filter capabilities if desired.

However, either of these units would require OmniMic or REW for measuring, as well as a compatible laptop, and a time investment to build a learning curve. Not something for a casual user or a "set and forget" consumer, but ultimately worth the time IMO.
I wonder who's most qualified in the recent discussions to give advice on multiple sub setup. Would it be, for example, you, batpig, beast, Jerry, Primetimeguy, ggsantafe, Alan P, myself etc etc, all of whom have set up multiple sub systems and fully understand what they are doing? Or would it be someone who has a single sub and has never set up a multiple sub system at all?
twain250 likes this.

Last edited by kbarnes701; 06-18-2014 at 02:00 PM.
kbarnes701 is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Audyssey , Receivers Amplifiers , Kef Kht1005 2se 5 1 Subwoofer Satellite System With C4 Subwoofer Gloss White , 5 6 7 1 7 2 Or 8 1 8 2 One Or Two Subwoofer Compatible 16 Banana Post 2 Rca Speaker Wall Plate For H
Gear in this thread - Kht1005 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off