"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2383 - AVS Forum
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post #71461 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
LOL! Give him a break - he has to convince himself first. It's practice for the next, and most important stage: convincing his wife.
When I tell her it's the "last" pre/pro I buy LOL...or she hears a demo of her favorite music with its own Trinnov preset....plus a LOT of compensatory payback....

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post #71462 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I wonder who's most qualified in the recent discussions to give advice on multiple sub setup. Would it be, for example, you, batpig, beast, Jerry, Primetimeguy, ggsantafe, Alan P, myself etc etc, all of whom have set up multiple sub systems and fully understand what they are doing? Or would it be someone who has a single sub and has never set up a multiple sub system at all?
I see some still haven't caught up with the subject, yet. It's not about "who set up how many subs", but about phase vs. frequency issues. Once the phenomenon is understood it will help to set up from 1 sub to an infinite number of subs.

Let's carry on.
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post #71463 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I wonder who's most qualified in the recent discussions to give advice on multiple sub setup. Would it be, for example, you, batpig, beast, Jerry, Primetimeguy, ggsantafe, Alan P, myself etc etc, all of whom have set up multiple sub systems and fully understand what they are doing? Or would it be someone who has a single sub and has never set up a multiple sub system at all?
There's other context as well: Craig John, Earl Geddes, Mark Seaton, etc. to provide "convergent validity". At the end of the day, the proverbial 100 users preference takes on a reference of its own.

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Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

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PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #71464 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
There's other context as well: Craig John, Earl Geddes, Mark Seaton, etc. to provide "convergent validity". At the end of the day, the proverbial 100 users preference takes on a reference of its own.
Careful, you may toss a wrench in the gears of the "non technical people googling" mythology. It's much easier when you can just pick on Keith.

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post #71465 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I wonder who's most qualified in the recent discussions to give advice on multiple sub setup. Would it be, for example, you, batpig, beast, Jerry, Primetimeguy, ggsantafe, Alan P, myself etc etc, all of whom have set up multiple sub systems and fully understand what they are doing? Or would it be someone who has a single sub and has never set up a multiple sub system at all?
Oh, do not include me in that list...I most certainly do not FULLY understand much of anything about setting up multiple subs. Despite owning quad subs and using REW for almost a year now, I'm still trying to get the best response. In fact, I just ordered a new laptop to make measuring an easier task.

I hope to have some revelations this weekend...but then again, I always assume every REW session is going to end with the perfect calibration. So far, that hasn't happened.

Gonna try setting all my subs to "0" phase (A.K.A. The Feri Method), putting my MiniDSP back in the chain and trying some different sub locations to see what I can come up with. Wish me luck!


The only thing I'm not sure about is how to accurately set the delays in the MiniDSP for the individual subs using REW....anyone have any tips on that front? (i.e. what graphs to look at and what to look for in said graphs; measure one sub at a time or all four; add one at a time and adjust delay; etc.)
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post #71466 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Careful, you may toss a wrench in the gears of the "non technical people googling" mythology. It's much easier when you can just pick on Keith.
If any of the above posters would like to help me setup my dual sub configuration this weekend, any advice would be more than welcomed =)

I have to incorporate:
Onkyo 1010 w/ XT32 and SubEQ
Dual PSA XV15 w/ 0-180 variable phase control
MiniDSP & REW w/ UMIK-1

It's a little daunting to say the least! I'm familiar with the REW basics and the sub distance tweak, but I have no idea if I should use Audyssey first, the MiniDSP first (or if it's even necessary), if I should set the phase for maximum SPL first, etc.

I was just going to do some experimenting and see what works best, but any advice on a general game plan would be most appreciated!

One question I know I do have (and forgive me if this is off topic) but if I set the phase to find the best pre-audyssey response, when Audyssey pings the individual subs to set distance, won't the phase be out of whack at that point and have a different response to EQ? Maybe I'm wrong, still learning!

Thanks!
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post #71467 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Careful, you may toss a wrench in the gears of the "non technical people googling" mythology. It's much easier when you can just pick on Keith.
If any of the above posters would like to help me setup my dual sub configuration this weekend, any advice would be more than welcomed =)

I have to incorporate:
Onkyo 1010 w/ XT32 and SubEQ
Dual PSA XV15 w/ 0-180 variable phase control
MiniDSP & REW w/ UMIK-1

It's a little daunting to say the least! I'm familiar with the REW basics and the sub distance tweak, but I have no idea if I should use Audyssey first, the MiniDSP first (or if it's even necessary), if I should set the phase for maximum SPL first, etc.

I was just going to do some experimenting and see what works best, but any advice on a general game plan would be most appreciated!

One question I know I do have (and forgive me if this is off topic) but if I set the phase to find the best pre-audyssey response, when Audyssey pings the individual subs to set distance, won't the phase be out of whack at that point and have a different response to EQ? Maybe I'm wrong, still learning!

Thanks!
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post #71468 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:36 PM
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@Alanp Obviously start with seeing if having all subs equidistant from your MLP works well. Odds are you don't have that much flexibility but it is certainly convenient to do so if at all possible. Past that, just start messing with each sub's distance/delay settings and see how it affects the FR adding one in at a time. it takes some time and massaging the settings to get it all to work well, but once you get it there, man is it impressive

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post #71469 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:48 PM
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Thanks Beast - what do I look for in the FR graphs specifically? Just trying to get as flat as possible as I add each sub into the mix?
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post #71470 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by chadwick537 View Post
If any of the above posters would like to help me setup my dual sub configuration this weekend, any advice would be more than welcomed =)

I have to incorporate:
Onkyo 1010 w/ XT32 and SubEQ
Dual PSA XV15 w/ 0-180 variable phase control
MiniDSP & REW w/ UMIK-1

It's a little daunting to say the least! I'm familiar with the REW basics and the sub distance tweak, but I have no idea if I should use Audyssey first, the MiniDSP first (or if it's even necessary), if I should set the phase for maximum SPL first, etc.

I was just going to do some experimenting and see what works best, but any advice on a general game plan would be most appreciated!

One question I know I do have (and forgive me if this is off topic) but if I set the phase to find the best pre-audyssey response, when Audyssey pings the individual subs to set distance, won't the phase be out of whack at that point and have a different response to EQ? Maybe I'm wrong, still learning!

Thanks!
Obviously from my recent posts, I'm about to try something new, but here's the procedure that's worked for me in the past:

Set the gain on both subs to the same level - around 12:00-2:00 on the gain knob is a good starting point.

1. Connect sub #1 only and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #1
3. Place sub #1 in that position
4. Connect both subs and place sub #2 at the MLP (with sub #1 playing as well)
5. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #2
6. Place sub #2 in that position
7. Adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)
8. Run Audyssey, first mic position only, and "calculate"
9. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -5db ideally
10. Adjust the gain on both subs by the same amount up or down as needed to achieve #8
11. Repeat 8-10 until you get the sub trim around -5db
12. Run the full Audyssey calibration
13. Bump up the sub trim from 3db to 6db to your preference
14. Enjoy!

You may want to skip the sub phase adjustment steps. I believe XT32 adjusts distance for both subs during calibration, but I could be wrong.

I would use the MiniDSP post-Audyssey. After you get everything calibrated with Audyssey, run some REW sweeps and see if you even need the MiniDSP. If you have some pretty good humps in your response, you can easily bring them down with REW's EQ function and the MiniDSP. If you have any nasty dips in the FR there's not much you can do about those with the MiniDSP.
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post #71471 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 03:00 PM
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Good call. Yes, with XT32 it will measure two different subs separately and in that case step 7 can be bypassed. In a situation where xt32 is not available to measure two different subs, you must look elsewhere to make the subs blend seamlessly, external DSP being a fantastic option, but if your only option is phase adjustment, then by all means give it a shot.

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post #71472 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
@Alanp Obviously start with seeing if having all subs equidistant from your MLP works well. Odds are you don't have that much flexibility but it is certainly convenient to do so if at all possible. Past that, just start messing with each sub's distance/delay settings and see how it affects the FR adding one in at a time. it takes some time and massaging the settings to get it all to work well, but once you get it there, man is it impressive
OK, there's something I just can't wrap my brain around.

When do I set delays in the MiniDSP, pre or post Audyssey?

Then, how does that affect the sub distance setting that Audyssey came up (comes up) with?

Then, which subs need the extra, MiniDSP induced delay - the closer (to MLP) subs, or the further subs?
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post #71473 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 03:09 PM
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Your pre-audyssey routine is to ensure JUST the two subs are working together, not against each other. Get them right so at the MLP they appear as a single entity, you then run audyssey to set the distance it reads, and start from there. At this point it is not making the two subs play well together as you already did that, now it is how well the subs blend with your mains.

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post #71474 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Your pre-audyssey routine is to ensure JUST the two subs are working together, not against each other. Get them right so at the MLP they appear as a single entity, you then run audyssey to set the distance it reads, and start from there. At this point it is not making the two subs play well together as you already did that, now it is how well the subs blend with your mains.
NOTE: I have 4 subs.

So, how do I get them to "play well together"??

Here's a quote from the MiniDSP page on setting up multiple subs:

"The calibration tone should be much louder with all subwoofers playing. Note that if two subs playing together don't sound louder than a sub playing alone, there could be a driver polarity issue, with the subwoofers actually playing out of phase. Interestingly, the 2-Way Advanced Crossover plugin can be used to reverse the polarity of each output signal, using the "Invert" button in the Delay/Gain/RMS blocks."

This is exactly my experience. When I add more than one sub to the mix, my overall output drops unless I adjust phase. Does this mean there is something amiss with my (4 identical) subs? Another person with multiples of these same subs has had the same experience as well.

So, I'm assuming to get them to "play well together" pre-Audyssey, I will have to adjust phase (polarity). Would this be better accomplished on the sub (variable) or in the MiniDSP (Normal/Reverse)?
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post #71475 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:07 PM
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I would guess the MiniDSP has the ability to adjust the phase anywhere in between 0 and 180 degrees. I don't have experience with the MiniDSP but have gleaned quite a bit of its processing ability from much reading around here. I get clowned all the time for my prehistoric Behringer DCX2496 but it does this and I would assume the Mini can too As well as general distance/delay adjustments but I will leave that with someone who knows the software a little better. If in fact I am correct, you just need to run REW sweeps and see what adjusting either does to your response. distributed subs are great for smoothing room modes and decreasing the seat to seat variations in freq response, but it is all for not if you aren't getting improved output somewhat. Co-location of subs should always yield (with equivalent added amp power) some added dB, but distributing them around the effect is not as great. Have a read of this question and answer from a juggernaut in the speaker design world, Tom Danley. First two posts here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...-loudness.html

I will also suggest not getting into a subwoofer enclosure....Even in the name of science...Haha

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post #71476 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:07 PM
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Double post

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post #71477 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I would guess the MiniDSP has the ability to adjust the phase anywhere in between 0 and 180 degrees. I don't have experience with the MiniDSP but have gleaned quite a bit of its processing ability from much reading around here. I get clowned all the time for my prehistoric Behringer DCX2496 but it does this and I would assume the Mini can too

I have the MiniDSP 10x10 HD, and your choices with phase are binary: 0 (no inversion) or 180 (phase inversion). It's literally just a box to check, not a continuum. My old Klipsch subwoofer in the 1990's had the continuum, but OTOH my HSU ULS-15 pair is also either 0 or 180. I don't know for sure but I think the 2x4 units work the same way.

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post #71478 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:41 PM
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Yup, the MiniDSP 2x4 which I have also has an INVERT on/off radio button for POLARITY.

My question is; is it better for any reason to use the MiniDSP or the phase switch on the sub?
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post #71479 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:42 PM
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Double post.
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post #71480 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
I have the MiniDSP 10x10 HD, and your choices with phase are binary: 0 (no inversion) or 180 (phase inversion). It's literally just a box to check, not a continuum. My old Klipsch subwoofer in the 1990's had the continuum, but OTOH my HSU ULS-15 pair is also either 0 or 180. I don't know for sure but I think the 2x4 units work the same way.
But why would you even need variable phase control? Isn't there a digital delay setting, which I think we all acknoweledge is a superior option as it shifts the full signal without introducing any unneeded group delay? Isn't that one of the advantages of using a tool like MiniDSP, that it allows you to time align the subs without having to resort to the suboptimal use of a variable phase control?

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post #71481 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:48 PM
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DUH! Thanks BatPig....I just can't get adjusting phase out of my head as one of the things you have to do to set up multiple subs. You are of course correct that with the MiniDSP phase adjustments are completely unnecessary!
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post #71482 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I would guess the MiniDSP has the ability to adjust the phase anywhere in between 0 and 180 degrees. I don't have experience with the MiniDSP but have gleaned quite a bit of its processing ability from much reading around here. I get clowned all the time for my prehistoric Behringer DCX2496 but it does this and I would assume the Mini can too As well as general distance/delay adjustments but I will leave that with someone who knows the software a little better. If in fact I am correct, you just need to run REW sweeps and see what adjusting either does to your response. distributed subs are great for smoothing room modes and decreasing the seat to seat variations in freq response, but it is all for not if you aren't getting improved output somewhat. Co-location of subs should always yield (with equivalent added amp power) some added dB, but distributing them around the effect is not as great. Have a read of this question and answer from a juggernaut in the speaker design world, Tom Danley. First two posts here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...-loudness.html

I will also suggest not getting into a subwoofer enclosure....Even in the name of science...Haha
Thanks for the link - one important point I took away from that is; avoid corner-loading unless you absolutely need the extra room gain as it "maximizes the magnitude of the room modes" - good to know!

I currently have 2 subs corner loaded and am not really happy with the sound. When I do my calibration session this weekend I think I'll go back to 2 up front and 2 in back, all subs at about 1/3 distance from the outer walls. I've had it setup like that before and was happiest with the FR and the sound, BUT I never adjusted delay with the DSP in that configuration. I expect great results!
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post #71483 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
But why would you even need variable phase control? Isn't there a digital delay setting, which I think we all acknoweledge is a superior option as it shifts the full signal without introducing any unneeded group delay? Isn't that one of the advantages of using a tool like MiniDSP, that it allows you to time align the subs without having to resort to the suboptimal use of a variable phase control?
+1 to bp. Finally we get to mutual understanding of the subject discussed at quite a length in the last few days. Hope "we acknowledge" means "most" of us. I think I'm gonna have a beer now, a cold one!

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post #71484 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 05:13 PM
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+1 to bp. Finally we get to mutual understanding of the subject discussed at quite a length in the last few days.
Not really. I (and I'm sure everyone else besides you) am taking the more moderate stance that it's a sub-optimal solution, whereas you are taking the absolutist stance that it's worse than useless (i.e. harmful in any circumstance, never to be used).

In the case of the original discussion, as I noted above, the OP had no ability to independently adjust digital delay, as he lacked XT32+SubEQ HT and didn't have any external tool like MiniDSP. I don't think anyone was saying that variable phase was an IDEAL solution, and certainly not superior to a digital distance adjustment... just that it was a tool that could be used to help optimize dual subs prior to running Audyssey in the absence of other, better tools.
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post #71485 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
But why would you even need variable phase control? Isn't there a digital delay setting, which I think we all acknoweledge is a superior option as it shifts the full signal without introducing any unneeded group delay? Isn't that one of the advantages of using a tool like MiniDSP, that it allows you to time align the subs without having to resort to the suboptimal use of a variable phase control?

It's a feature, but one I've never used much in practice except for comparative purposes. Time aligning the subs with control over delay through the MiniDSP is more effective IMO, so that's what I do with the 10x10 HD.


At this point, for me the MiniDSP is almost superfluous in an Audyssey setting, since my subs are equidistant and have almost identical delay in the MiniDSP after the post-Audyssey distance tweak - and I generally apply the tweak, except for very fine tuning, at the "upper" level for the subwoofer as a whole, with only minor if any changes to the delay for the individual subs. When I used to use the two subs with just Sub EQ and XT32, their distances were at most about 0.4 feet of one another in the same location. Although if I eventually get a MBM (mid-bass module) it will be helpful for managing the whole thing into a single sub response.


As you might remember, I picked up the MiniDSP mostly so I could try to improve on the results I have from the Sherwood R-972's Trinnov lite, using REW and the Auto EQ for both subs and mains as a "post-calibration" tweak. Currenty it's only subs only, for reasons outside of this thread.


But since the R-972 only has one sub pre-out, the MiniDSP comes in a little handier. I have separate presets on the MiniDSP for "Audyssey" and "Trinnov", with more of a distance tweak needed on the "Trinnov" preset to smooth the splice region. Probably not surprising because Audyssey is multi-position measurement (8 to 12 for me typically) and the Trinnov lite is a single measurement in MLP.


At any rate, it's all superfluous if I go to a pro Trinnov 12 (vs. an 8) channel answer later this year, since I'll have all the channels I need in that unit. I'm going to probably keep the 4311 with Audyssey around in one form or another for "old time's sake", and to scratch the itch of comparing full Trinnov vs. Audyssey.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

The Audyssey FAQ Guide can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/...


Last edited by sdrucker; 06-18-2014 at 05:26 PM.
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post #71486 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
I see some still haven't caught up with the subject, yet. It's not about "who set up how many subs", but about phase vs. frequency issues. Once the phenomenon is understood it will help to set up from 1 sub to an infinite number of subs.

Let's carry on.
We all know who is right and who is wrong in this discussion. Carry on with your single sub and MultEQ XT. Sorry, I forgot, it's not even that is it? MultEQ I think. Anyway, carry on
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post #71487 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 05:28 PM
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[quote]Not really. I (and I'm sure everyone else besides you) am taking the more moderate stance that it's a sub-optimal solution, whereas you are taking the absolutist stance that it's worse than useless (i.e. harmful in any circumstance, never to be used). [unquote]

Correct. No trouble at all, but correct.

[quote]In the case of the original discussion, as I noted above, the OP had no ability to independently adjust digital delay, as he lacked XT32+SubEQ HT and didn't have any external tool like MiniDSP.[unquote]

Then in that case the best the OP can do is level match the subs (with an SPL meter or even a cell phone app) and place them equidistant form MLP. Distance in this case is vital coz of no tools to set distance, eh? If its not an option then its better to give up due to already known reasons of variable phase boo-boos spoiling overall SQ.


[quote]I don't think anyone was saying that variable phase was an IDEAL solution, and certainly not superior to a digital distance adjustment... just that it was a tool that could be used to help optimize dual subs prior to running Audyssey in the absence of other, better tools.[unquote]

Workarounds, eh?

Last edited by mogorf; 06-18-2014 at 05:33 PM.
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post #71488 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 10:32 PM
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Audyssey Sub EQ HT level frequency?

I have a Denon AVR-X4000, which has Audyssey XT32 and Sub EQ HT.

During the Audyssey setup process, it plays a single test tone to the subwoofer 1 and has you adjust the gain/level of the subwoofer until it is between 72 and 78 decibels. Then it does the same for subwoofer 2.

Does anyone know the frequency of the test tone that is used for setting the gain/level of the subwoofer/s ?
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post #71489 of 73111 Old 06-18-2014, 10:48 PM
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Question but first:


I have two problems with the new forum is it the same for others?


1. The back button on my brouser no longer works when Im in a forum.


2. All the links to a new post on my email notifications no longer link, they are not in blue to click through since yesterday. (see)



Now back to Audyssey......


Im about to setup four SVS PB 13 ULTRAS up front, 1/4 in each side wall and two more in-between.
Using the Integra 70.4 which has Sub 1 & Sub 2 EQ, is it best to use the two separates (sub 1 & sub 2) sub EQs or just combine the four subs to Sub 1 only?
The EQ would then only be done as one sub.


I would have thought the distances if all subs are up front and equally spaced should have been connected as one sub only when EQing from the MLP.

Last edited by RapalloAV; 06-18-2014 at 10:50 PM.
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post #71490 of 73111 Old 06-19-2014, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Question but first:


I have two problems with the new forum is it the same for others?


1. The back button on my brouser no longer works when Im in a forum.


2. All the links to a new post on my email notifications no longer link, they are not in blue to click through since yesterday. (see)
I have the same issue with back button in my browser (IE 10...don't ask why I use IE). For number 2 I would guess it has to do with the broken links issue that Keith reported regarding the FAQ. It wasn't exactly clear from his update whether he manually fixed all of them or if there was some intervention from AVS staff but I think it was more of the former.

EDIT: I'm also seeing every post as a hyperlink (since yesterday) for some reason?!
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