"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2384 - AVS Forum
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post #71491 of 72388 Old 06-19-2014, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Im about to setup four SVS PB 13 ULTRAS up front, 1/4 in each side wall and two more in-between.
Using the Integra 70.4 which has Sub 1 & Sub 2 EQ, is it best to use the two separates (sub 1 & sub 2) sub EQs or just combine the four subs to Sub 1 only?
The EQ would then only be done as one sub.


I would have thought the distances if all subs are up front and equally spaced should have been connected as one sub only when EQing from the MLP.
How far apart will the subs be? If they are within 3.5' of each other, I would say treat them as one.

If you have the ability to measure your response, why not try both ways and see which gives you the best results?
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post #71492 of 72388 Old 06-19-2014, 08:24 AM
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The easiest way to start a dual sub system is to run a test tone, start at 30hz to each sub at the mlp useing a sound meter adjust the level of each sub so that its the same say 90db one sub at a time, with one sub at 90db turn on the second sub did the meter reading go higher or lower, adjust the phase for strongest output at the mlp. Can use distance as a phase setting to fine tune. Same goes for sub to mains/center/rears/etc. This is just the basics, but you get the idea.. You can do this before and after audyssey. Yes its work and takes a lot of your time. You may find things like the sub in phase with the mains @ 40,50 hz but out of phase @70,80 hz. the same could happen with the center, it can in phase with the sub/mains @80hz but out of phase with the mains @ 100hz but in phase @120 hz The combos are endless, things to listen for are male voices and of course tight clean bass, just to name a few, if it sounds muddy than phase is the first place to look...
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post #71493 of 72388 Old 06-19-2014, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
The easiest way to start a dual sub system is to run a test tone, start at 30hz to each sub at the mlp useing a sound meter adjust the level of each sub so that its the same say 90db one sub at a time, with one sub at 90db turn on the second sub did the meter reading go higher or lower, adjust the phase for strongest output at the mlp. Can use distance as a phase setting to fine tune. Same goes for sub to mains/center/rears/etc. This is just the basics, but you get the idea.. You can do this before and after audyssey. Yes its work and takes a lot of your time. You may find things like the sub in phase with the mains @ 40,50 hz but out of phase @70,80 hz. the same could happen with the center, it can in phase with the sub/mains @80hz but out of phase with the mains @ 100hz but in phase @120 hz The combos are endless, things to listen for are male voices and of course tight clean bass, just to name a few, if it sounds muddy than phase is the first place to look...
Joe, this setup makes too much mess in the phase department, I, for one, wouldn't follow this way.

Cheers, Feri


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post #71494 of 72388 Old 06-19-2014, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Joe, this setup makes too much mess in the phase department, I, for one, wouldn't follow this way.
You don't need to change anything if your happy, its just a test, honestly there really isn't much you can do about it anyway. Speaker polarity and Xover to get out of the bad phase zone, higher Xover will fix/ patch most phase issues. So if your center is good for full range/40hz as good as that might be, a phasing issue may out weigh that,, polarity wiring or/ and go with a higher Xover like 70/120hz may clear things, only if you feel the need to, blue or red pill. Using THX 80hz or higher setting is good cause it doesn't put more speakers in the most sensitive phase zone. One thing I've noticed that small satellite speakers that Xover at 100/150hz seem to sound very clear and clean but not full or loud , there always trade offs. 3 way speaker systems are most prone to crazy phase shifts, a cross over thing in poor 3 way speaker designs? Ported vs sealed speakers and subs have issues of there own. I guess Audyssey can't fix everything..

Last edited by joehonest; 06-19-2014 at 11:11 AM.
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AUDYSSEY 101 IS NOW FULLY OPERATIONAL FOLLOWING SYSTEM CHANGEOVER TO vBULLETIN!

This completes the work on
  • The Audyssey FAQ,
  • The Audyssey 101 and
  • The Audyssey FAQ Addendum
which was required as a result of the changeover from the Huddler platform to vBulletin.

All links have been checked and verified as working with the exception of a few links in the main FAQ which link to other AVS posts. These will be fixed in the next few days.

The Audyssey Pro FAQ is functional but in a bit of a mess. This will be fixed in the next 7 days.

Thanks for bearing with me during this major system update.
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post #71496 of 72388 Old 06-19-2014, 12:56 PM
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Never rule out a bad test mic, just because its working doesn't mean its good. if you feel your not getting good results, try another mic if possible. I've had 4 mics, 2 denon and 2 onkyo same spec units, yet I would swear each one produced very small but audible difference, each one did have its own personality..
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post #71497 of 72388 Old 06-19-2014, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Never rule out a bad test mic, just because its working doesn't mean its good. if you feel your not getting good results, try another mic if possible. I've had 4 mics, 2 denon and 2 onkyo same spec units, yet I would swear each one produced very small but audible difference, each one did have its own personality..
Well noted, thanks.

Cheers, Feri


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post #71498 of 72388 Old 06-19-2014, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

EDIT: I'm also seeing every post as a hyperlink (since yesterday) for some reason?!
Me too.

BTW, I don't see the panel for editing a reply, you know the one that has Bold, Italics, Underline, etc. and the buttons to embed a link or an image... and all that jazz...

Cheers, Feri


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post #71499 of 72388 Old 06-19-2014, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Never rule out a bad test mic, just because its working doesn't mean its good. if you feel your not getting good results, try another mic if possible. I've had 4 mics, 2 denon and 2 onkyo same spec units, yet I would swear each one produced very small but audible difference, each one did have its own personality..
the mics are tested to be within plus or minus 2 dB of the FR curve buit into the system, so it's not exactly a huge surprise that different mics yield subtly different results. That's different, at least technically, from "bad" and in the end one's preference for the results from a particular mic doesn't "prove" the mic is "correct" or "not bad." But those deviations are part of the price for not using $500 - $1000 measurement mics as part of the system. Which has a significant price effect . . . . FWIW.
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post #71500 of 72388 Old 06-19-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
the mics are tested to be within plus or minus 2 dB of the FR curve buit into the system, so it's not exactly a huge surprise that different mics yield subtly different results. That's different, at least technically, from "bad" and in the end one's preference for the results from a particular mic doesn't "prove" the mic is "correct" or "not bad." But those deviations are part of the price for not using $500 - $1000 measurement mics as part of the system. Which has a significant price effect . . . . FWIW.
And then we realize that the +/- 2 dB of the FR curve is pretty much enough for our ears, yet saved us a sizable amount of hard earned money in the range of $500 - 1,000 we can spend elswhere.

Cheers, Feri


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post #71501 of 72388 Old 06-19-2014, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aberslam74 View Post
I have a Denon AVR-X4000, which has Audyssey XT32 and Sub EQ HT.

During the Audyssey setup process, it plays a single test tone to the subwoofer 1 and has you adjust the gain/level of the subwoofer until it is between 72 and 78 decibels. Then it does the same for subwoofer 2.

Does anyone know the frequency of the test tone that is used for setting the gain/level of the subwoofer/s ?

It's not a single frequency, it's a bunch of them, like white noise...

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post #71502 of 72388 Old 06-20-2014, 05:48 AM
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Reran Audyssey XT before watching Man of steel last night (recommended, superman remake). It seems the results turned out better than I last remember. Maybe the speakers/subs have finally broken in or the house being at a higher temperature 78 vs 76. Or just having different expectations from the past runs and being a year older.. It could even be the new softer pillows!
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post #71503 of 72388 Old 06-20-2014, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Reran Audyssey XT before watching Man of steel last night (recommended, superman remake). It seems the results turned out better than I last remember. Maybe the speakers/subs have finally broken in or the house being at a higher temperature 78 vs 76. Or just having different expectations from the past runs and being a year older.. It could even be the new softer pillows!
How'bout humidity Joe? Did you check humidity?

Enjoy!

Cheers, Feri


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post #71504 of 72388 Old 06-20-2014, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Reran Audyssey XT before watching Man of steel last night (recommended, superman remake). It seems the results turned out better than I last remember. Maybe the speakers/subs have finally broken in or the house being at a higher temperature 78 vs 76. Or just having different expectations from the past runs and being a year older.. It could even be the new softer pillows!
Variations between Audyssey runs are usually caused by slightly different (or radically different if you were experimenting) mic positions during the measuring phase. If the mic is positioned differently between runs, then a difference in the calibration is inevitable, and sometimes it will be significant enough to be audible.


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post #71505 of 72388 Old 06-20-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
And then we realize that the +/- 2 dB of the FR curve is pretty much enough for our ears, yet saved us a sizable amount of hard earned money in the range of $500 - 1,000 we can spend elswhere.
Please, Feri, not again.. Even though you have stated it countless times in this thread, it is NOT true that Average Joe cannot hear +/-2dB variations in the frequency response.

Please take a look at these three frequency responses, and tell me, do you honestly believe they will sound the same? They only represent a +/2dB variation, but the differences between them would be very audible.





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PA: April Music Stello S200 (GD1 >130Hz), 2x ICEpower 1000ASP (GD1 <130Hz), 2x ICEpower ASP1000 (Subs), Marantz MM8077 (Rear+Center+Back)
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post #71506 of 72388 Old 06-20-2014, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
I see some still haven't caught up with the subject, yet. It's not about "who set up how many subs", but about phase vs. frequency issues. Once the phenomenon is understood it will help to set up from 1 sub to an infinite number of subs.
Yes, let us talk about phase vs. frequency. First of, you need to understand that your subwoofer does NOT have a flat phase response in itself, nor is it free of group delay. Every loudspeaker has a natural phase shift that follows frequency, that is inevitable.
Thus even with your hated phase-knob at 0 degree, your subwoofer will NOT exhibit zero phase or zero group delay.

I have made two simulations on a well known driver, the LMS-Ultra 5400, to show it to you (and whomever else interested).
Note: The dotted black line in the frequency response graph is the phase of the acoustic output)

Ported enclosure (200 litre, f3 = 23Hz)


Sealed Enclosure (200 litre, f3 = 50Hz)
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post #71507 of 72388 Old 06-20-2014, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjazdk View Post
Yes, let us talk about phase vs. frequency. First of, you need to understand that your subwoofer does NOT have a flat phase response in itself, nor is it free of group delay. Every loudspeaker has a natural phase shift that follows frequency, that is inevitable.
Thus even with your hated phase-knob at 0 degree, your subwoofer will NOT exhibit zero phase or zero group delay.

I have made two simulations on a well known driver, the LMS-Ultra 5400, to show it to you (and whomever else interested).
Note: The dotted black line in the frequency response graph is the phase of the acoustic output)

Ported enclosure (200 litre, f3 = 23Hz)


Sealed Enclosure (200 litre, f3 = 50Hz)
Dear jj, this only goes to show you have a misunderstanding of frequency vs. phase, all in all. Care to look at those graphs you posted again? Ground rule it that until the frequency response is flat the phase response is gonna be just as flat, as well. Once the frequency response starts to slope it will be followed in the same manner by the phase response.

And as frequency vs. phase is a general issue, not limited to HT, or speakers, it will do the same for a magnetron in your microwave oven. Capito?

Cheers, Feri


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Last edited by mogorf; 06-20-2014 at 05:39 PM.
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post #71508 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Reran Audyssey XT before watching Man of steel last night (recommended, superman remake). It seems the results turned out better than I last remember. Maybe the speakers/subs have finally broken in or the house being at a higher temperature 78 vs 76. Or just having different expectations from the past runs and being a year older.. It could even be the new softer pillows!
Keith is right. Mic positions are never the same exactly. I have had experience with many Audyssey calibrations and sometimes even if nothing has physically changed in the room the results can be more desirable. The biggest room improvements you will ever see are the first reflection points on the floor and ceiling. I did an experiment where I put a tough and thin type garage 4x8 rug right in front of my couch. It certainly had much more reflective properties than my plush carpet. After a week I removed it and the improvement was absolutely phenomenal! My ceiling treatment does a good job too

Haven't been here in awhile but I see the same old is still present

Also I am adding heights and wides tomm!
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post #71509 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjazdk View Post
Please, Feri, not again.. Even though you have stated it countless times in this thread, it is NOT true that Average Joe cannot hear +/-2dB variations in the frequency response.

Please take a look at these three frequency responses, and tell me, do you honestly believe they will sound the same? They only represent a +/2dB variation, but the differences between them would be very audible.
With this combo, Audyssey would calculate the speakers output to be a DULL and LIFELESS sounding HT.


If this mic is used in this auto setup


And the natural FR of your speakers in the room is something like this


I know I've been a victim of this scenario, to many times!
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post #71510 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjazdk View Post
Please, Feri, not again.. Even though you have stated it countless times in this thread, it is NOT true that Average Joe cannot hear +/-2dB variations in the frequency response.

Please take a look at these three frequency responses, and tell me, do you honestly believe they will sound the same? They only represent a +/2dB variation, but the differences between them would be very audible.





Prove it please. Prepare 4 audio files that we can download.

1. "As is" with a flat response.
2. The other 3 with filters set as per your graphs.
3. MP3 is ok.
4. Use file names that don't correspond to which is which!

Lookin' forward to the test.

Cheers, Feri


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Last edited by mogorf; 06-21-2014 at 01:43 PM.
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post #71511 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

With this combo, Audyssey would calculate the speakers output to be a DULL and LIFELESS sounding HT.


If this mic is used in this auto setup


And the natural FR of your speakers in the room is something like this


I know I've been a victim of this scenario, to many times!
Joe, I really don't know what you are talking about!

Cheers, Feri


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post #71512 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Prove it please. Prepare 4 audio files that we can download.

1. "As is" with a flat response.
2. The other 3 with filters set as per your graphs.
3. MP3 is ok.
4. Use file names that don't correspond to which is which!

Lookin' forward to the test.
Honestly, its not his job to prove it, but its Audyssey job to fix it!! jjazdk is showing 3 scenarios that are possible going by the +/-2dB variations in the Audysseys mic frequency response.
Maybe the only thing that needs to be proven is the +/-2dB spec for Audyssey mic, I believe it could be much worse!
jjazdk theory sure does answer alot of questions to why does my HT sound like this after auto run, good thing there is the on/ off button..
I'm sure this is true having used 4 different mics with the same HT system.
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post #71513 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Honestly, its not his job to prove it, but its Audyssey job to fix it!! jjazdk is showing 3 scenarios that are possible going by the +/-2dB variations in the Audysseys mic frequency response.
Maybe the only thing that needs to be proven is the +/-2dB spec for Audyssey mic, I believe it could be much worse!
jjazdk theory sure does answer alot of questions to why does my HT sound like this after auto run, good thing there is the on/ off button..
I'm sure this is true having used 4 different mics with the same HT system.
??????????

Cheers, Feri


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post #71514 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 02:23 PM
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Joe, I really don't know what you are talking about!
No one said it would be easy, but it really is.
Basically if the mic reads the room as overly "bright" due to being overly sensitive at the high end.
Audyssey is going to calculate the speakers high end output to be lower in that range, by way to much!
In my case it would make music sound DULL and LIFELESS and Audyssey best left OFF.
I'm sure jjazdk knows what I'm saying / showing cause we're on the same page about this one.

Are there also specs for S/N and sensitivity (volts out) ?

Last edited by joehonest; 06-21-2014 at 02:51 PM.
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post #71515 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jjazdk View Post
... it is NOT true that Average Joe cannot hear +/-2dB variations in the frequency response.
I believe I read that with a simple midrange test tone, most people can hear 1 dB variations, and, with a complex signal (I think they used music, and perhaps square waves?) some people can hear smaller differences.
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post #71516 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 02:58 PM
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I believe I read that with a simple midrange test tone, most people can hear 1 dB variations, and, with a complex signal (I think they used music, and perhaps square waves?) some people can hear smaller differences.
Who are those "most people", please? And who are "some people", please? Where did you "believe" you read all "that"? Do you just think or are you sure they used music? Who the heck listens to square waves? Who are those people who can hear smaller differences, please?

Today I asked my son (22 old) to sit at the MLP and close his eyes while I play music and used the remote to adjust Master Volume up and down by 2 dB. Guess what, he asked me: are you doing anything with that remote?

Why not do your own test and report back, please.
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Cheers, Feri


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Last edited by mogorf; 06-21-2014 at 03:03 PM.
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post #71517 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 03:04 PM
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Today I asked my son (22 old) to sit at the MLP and close his eyes while I play music and used the remote to adjust Master Volume up and down by 2 dB. Guess what, he asked me: are you doing anything with that remote?
There you go, you have your answer, my exwife would of said "stop playing around" !!
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post #71518 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I believe I read that with a simple midrange test tone, most people can hear 1 dB variations, and, with a complex signal (I think they used music, and perhaps square waves?) some people can hear smaller differences.
Yes - it has been well documented in this thread. Some members have short memories. I posted a lot of evidence about it including tests carried out by audio scientists with PhDs. The Just Noticeable Difference (JND) is without any shadow of doubt 1dB. It's honestly not worth arguing all over again - the fantasists will never agree with it and simply ignore any objective evidence which is posted if it contradicts their fantasies.
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post #71519 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
There you go, you have your answer, my exwife would of said "stop playing around" !!
LOL.

English is not my first language, but is it:

1. "would of", or
2. "wood of", or
3. "would have"?

Cheers, Feri


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post #71520 of 72388 Old 06-21-2014, 03:13 PM
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LOL.

English is not my first language, but is it:

1. "would of", or
2. "wood of", or
3. "would have"?
I was JUST quoting my EX WIFE,
if it was me, I would have said
"would have" it is my ex wife who has poor english skills.
Now you see the long term damage of being with the wrong woman to long..

Last edited by joehonest; 06-21-2014 at 03:26 PM.
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