"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2385 - AVS Forum
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post #71521 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:16 PM
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And then there are the ones who massively "google" any subject they pick up on threads looking for a lot of evidence, yet never bother to do their own simple homemade tests. Forum life, indeed. Gotta live with it.
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post #71522 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
I was JUST quoting my EX WIFE,
if it was me, I would have said
"would have" it is my ex wife who has poor English skills.
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post #71523 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Yes - it has been well documented in this thread. Some members have short memories. I posted a lot of evidence about it including tests carried out by audio scientists with PhDs. The Just Noticeable Difference (JND) is without any shadow of doubt 1dB. It's honestly not worth arguing all over again - the fantasists will never agree with it and simply ignore any objective evidence which is posted if it contradicts their fantasies.
Some memebers can only hear phase differences and not volume differences apparently.
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post #71524 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
And then there are the ones who massively "google" any subject they pick up on threads looking for a lot of evidence, yet never bother to do their own simple homemade tests. Forum life, indeed. Gotta live with it.
Let me get this straight... you are pitching asking your son to listen to you fiddling with the remote control in your living room against a university research department conducting tests led by a PhD-qualified acoustician? Seriously?

If so, then it would do you some good to use google to research the subject.
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post #71525 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Some memebers can only hear phase differences and not volume differences apparently.
Some members do not introduce unnecessary phase differences to their systems, yet some advise it as a workaround. Some don't even bother to do their own listening test but quote scientific "proof". Forum life again on a slow Saturday, eh?
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post #71526 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Let me get this straight... you are pitching asking your son to listen to you fiddling with the remote control in your living room against a university research department conducting tests led by a PhD-qualified acoustician? Seriously?

If so, then it would do you some good to use google to research the subject.
Again, as I've said before, there is nothing wrong with university research departments conducting such tests, yet it would (or wood, LOL) do you good if you did conduct your own tests. When done report back please.
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post #71527 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Prove it please. Prepare 4 audio files that we can download.

1. "As is" with a flat response.
2. The other 3 with filters set as per your graphs.
3. MP3 is ok.
4. Use file names that don't correspond to which is which!

Lookin' forward to the test.
Unnecessary. Anyone with the ability to tailor their FR to these curves (like me) can tell you that they'll sound very different, indeed.
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post #71528 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Unnecessary. Anyone with the ability to tailor their FR to these curves (like me) can tell you that they'll sound very different, indeed.
Sorry RUR, not convinced. Test is test, words are just words. I'm ready to say: 'I stand corrected" should it be the case. Let's do it!
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post #71529 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Some members do not introduce unnecessary phase differences to their systems, yet some advise it as a workaround. Some don't even bother to do their own listening test but quote scientific "proof". Forum life again on a slow Saturday, eh?
And your proof is where?
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post #71530 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Sorry RUR, not convinced. Test is test, words are just words. I'm ready to say: 'I stand corrected" should it be the case. Let's do it!
Can you here the difference between Audyssey Flat and Reference curves? Reality is there is only a couple db difference in most setups.
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post #71531 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:45 PM
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No matter, I know what those curves sound like because I've listened to them. You're speculating based upon zero real world experience.
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post #71532 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Can you here the difference between Audyssey Flat and Reference curves? Reality is there is only a couple db difference in most setups.
Doing A/Bing and if you do listen and know what your listening for, then yes, if you don't care, then what difference does it make, right.
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post #71533 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Again, as I've said before, there is nothing wrong with university research departments conducting such tests, yet it would (or wood, LOL) do you good if you did conduct your own tests. When done report back please.
OK. You are challenging my credibility, I see that.

So let’s talk about conducting our own tests.

Not so long ago you spent a lot of time arguing about the differences between an XT calibration and an XT32 calibration.

But you do not have XT32. You do not even have XT. You have a Denon 2310 which has MultEQ - one up from the entry level version of Audyssey.

Yet you felt comfortable challenging Igor Zep, who had conducted the very tests you are now advocating, and you said that you did not hear the effects that he heard when comparing the results of an XT32 calibration against those of an XT calibration. Did it not occur to you that it would have been miraculous if you had heard these effects, given that you have no hands-on experience of XT or XT32? Yet you present yourself repeatedly as an 'expert' on the different versions of Audyssey.

Similarly, you have recently felt comfortable challenging several members who have multiple sub setups and who have conducted "their own tests" extensively. You are putting a lot of faith now in these "own tests" yet when other members conduct such tests you argue with their findings.

But you do not have multiple subs. You have a single subwoofer. Moreover, it is placed inside a wall cabinet designed to house it. So you do not even have hands-on experience of optimising its performance in your room using placement to do so. Similarly, you have no hands-on experience of setting up multiple subwoofers yet you feel comfortable telling those who do that they are wrong and you set yourself up as an "expert" on setting up multiple subwoofers.

Now many of us have conducted our "own (extensive) tests" using REW. I know that you have REW and that you know how to use it. Yet you have never once posted a single graph showing the in-room response of your system. So you demand that others show the results of their "own tests", as you just demanded of jjazdk (a degreed engineer who earns his living from his involvement with audio systems) yet you post none of your own results of your measurements. Some might consider this suspicious, and their suspicion might be that you dare not post your results because they are so execrably bad, thus seriously diminishing your self-appointed status as an "expert" on every aspect of Audyssey and acoustics. If I am wrong here, then please post the results of your in-room measurements, showing us just how good MultEQ can be with a non-placement-optimised single subwoofer.

I will leave it for others to judge who has credibility here and who does not.
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post #71534 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
No matter, I know what those curves sound like because I've listened to them. You're speculating based upon zero real world experience.
+1 on this, since I've not only heard Rur/Ken's (and Curt Hoyt's) pro Trinnov system but watched them make at-will target curve edits, filter calculations, and comparisons with both two channel and multichannel material I know well. A subtle 2 db difference at an area of a FR curve is quite noticeable.

Last edited by sdrucker; 06-21-2014 at 03:56 PM.
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post #71535 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
And your proof is where?
What proof do you need for not introducing unnecessary issues that do not need to be introduced? I don't get it!
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post #71536 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
What proof do you need for not introducing unnecessary issues that do not need to be introduced? I don't get it!
Where is your personal graph that shows it is an issue rather than reading about it on in the internet?
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post #71537 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
So let’s talk about conducting our own tests.
Yeah, let's talk. Looking' forward to results of your own tests conducted.
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post #71538 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Where is your personal graph that shows it is an issue rather than reading about it on in the internet?
Huh? What personal graph are you looking for, please? When you adapt theory into practice you don't look for odd solutions, do you?
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post #71539 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Huh? What personal graph are you looking for, please? When you adapt theory into practice you don't look for odd solutions, do you?
Once again, when asked to show your proof and experience it does not exist. I'm out of another pointless discussion with you.
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post #71540 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Who are those "most people", please? And who are "some people", please? Where did you "believe" you read all "that"? Do you just think or are you sure they used music? Who the heck listens to square waves? Who are those people who can hear smaller differences, please?

Today I asked my son (22 old) to sit at the MLP and close his eyes while I play music and used the remote to adjust Master Volume up and down by 2 dB. Guess what, he asked me: are you doing anything with that remote?

Why not do your own test and report back, please.
I read the article I'm referring to in about 1980, but have not heard any scholarly contradictions of the notion that a JND in the midrange = about 1 dB, or less, in the 34 years since. Naturally I don't remember the author/title, but it may have been in the giant paperback 50 Seminal Papers in Human Hearing. The "most people" referred to most of the people in their research. "Some people" referred to those in their samples who could discern less than a 1 dB difference when complex stimuli were used. Yes, I'm sure that music was used in some of their studies. They -- the experimenter(s) and their subjects -- are people who listened to square waves, at least for the research.

Re: JND, if I can be pardoned for using Google , I might suggest checking the following source, although it might shake us all up. I suspect that the JND they are referring to was found at higher SPLs than those at which we listen to music, and I'm not prepared to say I agree with them, but here is a quote from the end of the first paragraph: "The "just noticeable difference," or JND for amplitude — that is, the minimal perceptible change in amplitude — varies by the starting amplitude and frequency, but in general it ranges between 0.2 and 0.4 dB."
http://www.indiana.edu/~emusic/etext...loudness.shtml
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post #71541 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Once again, when asked to show your proof and experience it does not exist. I'm out of another pointless discussion with you.
Bye-bye.
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post #71542 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I read the article I'm referring to in about 1980, but have not heard any scholarly contradictions of the notion that a JND in the midrange = about 1 dB in the 34 years since. Naturally I don't remember the author/title, but it may have been in the giant paperback 50 Seminal Papers in Human Hearing. The "most people" referred to most of the people in their research. "Some people" referred to those in their samples who could discern less than a 1 dB difference when complex stimuli were used. Yes, I'm sure that music was used in some of their studies. They -- the experimenter(s) and their subjects -- are people who listened to square waves, at least for the research.

Re: JND, if I can be pardoned for using Google , I might suggest checking this source, although it might shake us all up.
http://www.indiana.edu/~emusic/etext...loudness.shtml
Nice link - thanks for posting that.
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post #71543 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I read the article I'm referring to in about 1980, but have not heard any scholarly contradictions of the notion that a JND in the midrange = about 1 dB, or less, in the 34 years since. Naturally I don't remember the author/title, but it may have been in the giant paperback 50 Seminal Papers in Human Hearing. The "most people" referred to most of the people in their research. "Some people" referred to those in their samples who could discern less than a 1 dB difference when complex stimuli were used. Yes, I'm sure that music was used in some of their studies. They -- the experimenter(s) and their subjects -- are people who listened to square waves, at least for the research.

Re: JND, if I can be pardoned for using Google , I might suggest checking the following source, although it might shake us all up. I suspect that the JND they are referring to was found at higher SPLs than those at which we listen to music, and I'm not prepared to say I agree with them, but here is a quote from the end of the first paragraph: "The "just noticeable difference," or JND for amplitude — that is, the minimal perceptible change in amplitude — varies by the starting amplitude and frequency, but in general it ranges between 0.2 and 0.4 dB."
http://www.indiana.edu/~emusic/etext...loudness.shtml
Gary, believe me I do hear you, yet IMHO it's not worth to have such heated discussions on exact threshold of nuances down to decimal dB's audible or not. Healthy ears by each individual will surely vary within a tolerance, yet IMHO not worth discussing further on coz it won't make any of our HT systems better. Do you agree?
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post #71544 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Nice link - thanks for posting that.
Livin' on links, eh?
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post #71545 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
A subtle 2 db difference at an area of a FR curve is quite noticeable.
Stu, engineers don't use words like "subtle" in front of a dB value. Please don't be mislead by wrong use of words (adjectives). Hope this helps.
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post #71546 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 05:29 PM
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Congrats! Glad you're enjoying it. Did you end up boosting the sub trim post-Audyssey at all?
Alan: sorry for the delay in replying, but somehow I got "caught in a wormhole" during the change to the revised format and for more than a week, I was unable to log in or post. I have no idea why, but somehow, finally, I was able to reset my password and login. Evidently my username was different than what I thought it was, too. strange goings on!

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post #71547 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Sorry RUR, not convinced. Test is test, words are just words. I'm ready to say: 'I stand corrected" should it be the case. Let's do it!
Nobody believes you nor should they. You got caught red handed with a direct quote from Chris Kyriakakis stating explicitly that F3 is a standard industry term and you still refused to admit you were wrong. Peer reviewed published studies are hand waved away as google links. It's getting ridiculous.

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post #71548 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Gary, believe me I do hear you, yet IMHO it's not worth to have such heated discussions on exact threshold of nuances down to decimal dB's audible or not. Healthy ears by each individual will surely vary within a tolerance, yet IMHO not worth discussing further on coz it won't make any of our HT systems better. Do you agree?
So you are allowed to say things which are completely false, but when someone posts clear evidence contradicting your claim all of a sudden the discussion is not worth having?
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post #71549 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 08:43 PM
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Hands up if you are tired of the hypocrisy that has been demonstrated in this thread over the last several days.

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post #71550 of 71855 Old 06-21-2014, 09:03 PM
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This thread is wayyy too divisive...
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