"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2387 - AVS Forum
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post #71581 of 71855 Old 06-23-2014, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
I haven't listened to the test tones yet, but wanted to comment on using our laptops for listening. They just don't play bass. when I go here http://www.seventhstring.com/tuningfork/tuningfork.html and push the waveform slider all the way to the left (a pure sine wave) the C below middle C, at about 130 Hz is so close to inaudible as to be effectively inaudible. If I put a little sawtooth wave in, I can hear all the way down to the next octave, at about 65 Hz, easily. but I am hearing zero 65 Hz tone, my brain is interpolating the fundamental from the harmonics present in the sawtooth wave. Certainly I am rolling off in the lows from middle C at about 260 Hz down to the inaudible, or nearly so, C one octave down. Whatever I perceive as different between samples on my laptop HAS to be happening above 130 Hz . . . likely well above . . . I'd wager that no laptop really reproduces anything significantly below 100 Hz, so you miss the bottom two plus octaves entirely.
Only use sine waves for speakers !!! Why would anyone use a sawtooth wave, it maybe very harmful .
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post #71582 of 71855 Old 06-23-2014, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Only use sine waves for speakers !!! Why would anyone use a sawtooth wave, it maybe very harmful .
Won't be harmful, unless you try to saw with it!
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post #71583 of 71855 Old 06-24-2014, 12:25 PM
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FAQ UPDATE!

I have finished editing the last bunch of links to other parts of the AVS site and have now tested every FAQ link and all are working properly. This now completes the work on updating the Audyssey FAQ following the changeover to vBulletin forum software.

This means that the FAQ, the '101' and the Technical Addendum are now all fully functional again. The work on the Audyssey Pro Kit FAQ will be completed asap.
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post #71584 of 71855 Old 06-24-2014, 05:09 PM
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Does anyone know if DEQ affects the dialog when playing 5 db less than ref?
I find with DEQ engaged the speech seems deeper with my THX Klipsch horn tweeters, I prefer the speech with it on.
When I turn off DEQ the speech does seem a lot brighter, I didn't think DEQ affected that range of audio...
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post #71585 of 71855 Old 06-24-2014, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Only use sine waves for speakers !!! Why would anyone use a sawtooth wave, it maybe very harmful .
Horse crap. Don't play cellos or anything with a moog synth. Seriously. Get a grip
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post #71586 of 71855 Old 06-24-2014, 09:03 PM
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What could possibly cause a -4.0 subwoofer level one day and a -8.0 the next? I preformed the Audyssey setup procedure the same each time and didn't change anything with my equipment. Any ideas?
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post #71587 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 06:58 AM
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Have you moved anything in the room? Have a door or something open that was previously closed during calibration? Anything like fridges, clothes washers or dryers, etc running in the background? Live near a highway or airport? All things that could contribute differences. Heck, even the garbage truck lumbering by could cause an anomaly.

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post #71588 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post
What could possibly cause a -4.0 subwoofer level one day and a -8.0 the next? I preformed the Audyssey setup procedure the same each time and didn't change anything with my equipment. Any ideas?
Slightly different mic positions. Ambient noise is only a problem if you get an error message to that effect.
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post #71589 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
Slightly different mic positions. Ambient noise is only a problem if you get an error message to that effect.
Another tip can be a slight mis-adjustment of the gain knob on the sub, even by accident like during cleanup or dusting (by non-qualified personnel, LOL). Some put a piece of Scotch tape on the gain knob to prevent such mis-haps.
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post #71590 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Does anyone know if DEQ affects the dialog when playing 5 db less than ref?
I find with DEQ engaged the speech seems deeper with my THX Klipsch horn tweeters, I prefer the speech with it on.
When I turn off DEQ the speech does seem a lot brighter, I didn't think DEQ affected that range of audio...

Yes, DEQ is doing it's thing unless you are at 0db MV (with "0" RLO). However, DEQ only boosts the subs and surrounds when you are below reference.

What you are hearing is the dialogue content in your subwoofer channel. You are either running a pretty high crossover, your subs are running fairly hot or the dialogue you are listening to has some pretty low content. If so, this is completely normal.
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post #71591 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, DEQ is doing it's thing unless you are at 0db MV (with "0" RLO). However, DEQ only boosts the subs and surrounds when you are below reference.

What you are hearing is the dialogue content in your subwoofer channel. You are either running a pretty high crossover, your subs are running fairly hot or the dialogue you are listening to has some pretty low content. If so, this is completely normal.
Dyn EQ boosts ALL bass, not just in the subs, but all channels. If you look at charts it can start as high as 300hz. Granted it is minimal at that point and depends on volume level. But you probably can hear the difference with male voices for sure.
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post #71592 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 09:56 AM
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Thanks for that primetimeguy, I stand corrected!
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post #71593 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 11:12 AM
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I didn't move anything in the room and it's an open living room, so no doors. And the sub's control panel is not accessible.

I tried to put the mics as close as possible each time. Every other level was identical except the subwoofer.

Thanks guys... Any other ideas?
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post #71594 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post
I didn't move anything in the room and it's an open living room, so no doors. And the sub's control panel is not accessible.

I tried to put the mics as close as possible each time. Every other level was identical except the subwoofer.

Thanks guys... Any other ideas?
No pets? No toddlers? No Lego inside the sub?
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post #71595 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Does anyone know if DEQ affects the dialog when playing 5 db less than ref?
I find with DEQ engaged the speech seems deeper with my THX Klipsch horn tweeters, I prefer the speech with it on.
When I turn off DEQ the speech does seem a lot brighter, I didn't think DEQ affected that range of audio...
Are you sure you mean brighter with DEQ off? It will boost higher frequenices with DEQ enabled, see graph,
so I find it strange it should be brighter when disabled at -5.
Or do you mean that it is brighter with both DEQ+MultEQ off vs DEQ On?

Also, the bass boost can start as high as 600hz.
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post #71596 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
Are you sure you mean brighter with DEQ off? It will boost higher frequenices with DEQ enabled, see graph,
so I find it strange it should be brighter when disabled at -5.
Or do you mean that it is brighter with both DEQ+MultEQ off vs DEQ On?

Also, the bass boost can start as high as 600hz.
Thanks for tracking down that chart, I was lazy. :-)

The lack of bass will bring out the high freq an it will sound less full so my guess is that is what he means with brighter with DEQ off. Often times it can be hard to tell if one end of the spectrum is boosted or the other reduced.
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post #71597 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 12:04 PM
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Has anybody done measurement sweeps of the various DEQ levels on surrounds? Just curious to see what sort of boost they receive..

My laptop only supports 2 channels on REW, so I can't test it.

Thanks
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post #71598 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
No pets? No toddlers? No Lego inside the sub?
Haha pets were in the garage both times and the kids weren't home! Didn't check for Legos though.
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post #71599 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 12:49 PM
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Was there a recent change with Audyssey to allow the use of Dynamic Volume without engaging Dynamic EQ, or was this specific to Denon (and maybe Marantz)?

I recently bought a Denon X2000 and noticed I can turn on Dynamic Volume independetly of Dynamic EQ (which is good, because I don't like Dynamic EQ)...

I was not able to do this on any other receivers I've owned that had Audyssey: Denon 991, Denon 1910, Marantz 6005, Marantz 1402. For those, if Dynamic EQ was turned off, Dynamic Volume was automatically off as well.

Anyone know at what point this change happened, and whether it's an Audyssey change or a change with the implementation in Denon (and Marantz?) receivers?
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post #71600 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 01:06 PM
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If Audyssey detects on any of these it will try to create correction filters for them and this will clearly adversely affect your results. Remember, just because you can't hear the noise doesn't mean that Audyssey can't. If Audyssey detects the noise level is too high, it will raise the level of the chirps and try again. It will do this three times before giving up and displaying the error message. So long as the error message is not displayed, Audyssey will cope with the ambient noise level and deliver a good calibration.

If you get the error message and you have ensured that everything is turned off, you might want to try the calibration later at night when external noise is usually much lower. If you still get the error message despite that, then there is a chance that you have a fault. Often the mic may be faulty or have become damaged. Mics can be damaged by static electricity for example. If this is the case, you will need to obtain the correct replacement for your mic and then try again. If your unit has a factory reset procedure, it may be worth trying that before you blame the mic.

It is worth noting that you do not need to be paranoid about background noise levels. Chris Kyriakakis has stated (Ask Audyssey 14 July 2012) "If you are not getting a noise error then the data collected is perfectly fine." In other words, the calibration is not somehow 'improved' by having a very quiet background noise level. Just keep the noise levels as low as you can when calibrating."



My question is, will you get the same calibration results if there are a few sudden noises (car horn etc) as you would with absolute silence?

To me, parts of these paragraphs contradict themselves as written. It says, "if you are not getting a noise error message then the data is perfectly fine." Then in the first paragraph it states, "If Audyssey detects on any of these it will try to create correction filters for them and this will clearly adversely affect your results."

Why would it create correction filters if the system is designed to re-chirp faulty sessions or show an error message if there is ambient noise present - thus, repeating the process until it goes through.

"The reason we take 10 chirps per speaker is to overcome the effects of transient noise. They will be averaged out if they only happened during one of the chirps."

If the chirps are averaged out, does this mean that 7 clean chirps are averaged out against 3 poor chirp-readings?

"the calibration is not somehow 'improved' by having a very quiet background noise level."

If the 10 chirps are averaged out, then wouldn't it be better to have 10 chirps in silence?

I am just trying to get a consistency about this, as getting a quiet environment is the biggest challenge of Audyssey.

Thanks guys!

Last edited by Napoleon D; 06-25-2014 at 01:18 PM.
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post #71601 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, DEQ is doing it's thing unless you are at 0db MV (with "0" RLO). However, DEQ only boosts the subs and surrounds when you are below reference.

What you are hearing is the dialogue content in your subwoofer channel. You are either running a pretty high crossover, your subs are running fairly hot or the dialogue you are listening to has some pretty low content. If so, this is completely normal.

Ok then obviously DEQ doesn't affect the front 3 channels at all if its only tied to the subs and surrounds. All my crossovers are set to 80Hz and my subs are not run hot, they are left at the same 75db I first set them to.


It must then be my imagination the fronts sound warmer with DEQ engaged. I run 5db less than ref.
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post #71602 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Thanks for tracking down that chart, I was lazy. :-)

The lack of bass will bring out the high freq an it will sound less full so my guess is that is what he means with brighter with DEQ off. Often times it can be hard to tell if one end of the spectrum is boosted or the other reduced.
Yes precisely that's what I mean. When I don't have DEQ engaged the speech seems much brighter, I don't like it with my Klipsch fronts.
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post #71603 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Ok then obviously DEQ doesn't affect the front 3 channels at all
That's not correct. I responded to Allan P's post and he acknowledged the correction.
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post #71604 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post
Was there a recent change with Audyssey to allow the use of Dynamic Volume without engaging Dynamic EQ, or was this specific to Denon (and maybe Marantz)?

I recently bought a Denon X2000 and noticed I can turn on Dynamic Volume independetly of Dynamic EQ (which is good, because I don't like Dynamic EQ)...

I was not able to do this on any other receivers I've owned that had Audyssey: Denon 991, Denon 1910, Marantz 6005, Marantz 1402. For those, if Dynamic EQ was turned off, Dynamic Volume was automatically off as well.

Anyone know at what point this change happened, and whether it's an Audyssey change or a change with the implementation in Denon (and Marantz?) receivers?
It's not an audyssey change, it's a D&M change. I think it happened a couple of years ago but not sure exactly when (it was never announced or documented), and AFAICT it's only possible using the web interface.

Different manufacturers implement things differently. Like Onkyo I think now allowing DEQ without MultEQ engaged! Or scrapping the polarity check during calibration, or doing SubEQ wrong (measuring the subs independently instead of summed) on the first iteration.

Audyssey is not happy about as using each of their techs without "layering" as intended isn't how they are designed.
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post #71605 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
It's not an audyssey change, it's a D&M change. I think it happened a couple of years ago but not sure exactly when (it was never announced or documented), and AFAICT it's only possible using the web interface.

Different manufacturers implement things differently. Like Onkyo I think now allowing DEQ without MultEQ engaged! Or scrapping the polarity check during calibration, or doing SubEQ wrong (measuring the subs independently instead of summed) on the first iteration.

Audyssey is not happy about as using each of their techs without "layering" as intended isn't how they are designed.

What AVR brand uses Audyssey correctly as it was intended?
Do any set up the subs spliced properly with the mains?
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post #71606 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 05:19 PM
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Well, any brand using Audyssey can be set up as "intended" whether or not the manufacturer allows some things that Audyssey would prefer they hadn't. Run MultEQ using all positions, afterwards set all speakers to "small", choose the Audyssey Reference target curve, and turn on Dynamic EQ. That is Audyssey "as intended".

These days, since Onkyo has abandoned Audyssey, it's pretty safe to say that D&M has the closest relationship and is most dedicated to Audyssey technologies.

AFAIK, there is no receiver that measures the speakers+subwoofer splice as part of Audyssey, although the Pro Kit has some additional filtering calculated depending on the crossover that is loaded.

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post #71607 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 05:42 PM
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Well, any brand using Audyssey can be set up as "intended" whether or not the manufacturer allows some things that Audyssey would prefer they hadn't. Run MultEQ using all positions, afterwards set all speakers to "small", choose the Audyssey Reference target curve, and turn on Dynamic EQ. That is Audyssey "as intended".

These days, since Onkyo has abandoned Audyssey, it's pretty safe to say that D&M has the closest relationship and is most dedicated to Audyssey technologies.

AFAIK, there is no receiver that measures the speakers+subwoofer splice as part of Audyssey, although the Pro Kit has some additional filtering calculated depending on the crossover that is loaded.

Maybe I should have rephrased that....
I meant to say does any brand use Audyssey as intended by Audyssey, without manual intervention to make it right?
Since we only have D&M using it now, maybe its time for Audyssey to bring out a super new version to replace XT32. Maybe then they would have something brilliant to entice the others on-board.

Last edited by RapalloAV; 06-25-2014 at 05:59 PM.
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post #71608 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 05:51 PM
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Was anything I described (other than potentially having to adjust bass management) involve "manual intervention to make it right"? No receiver has given bass management over to Audyssey (only the Pro Kit suggests crossovers and loads them to the AVR as part of calibration) so that's sort of a moot point. The rest of it is basically out of box functionality. If I go and buy a Denon receiver, take it home, and run Audyssey, after I'm done I will get what I described -- MultEQ active on the Audyssey Reference target curve, with Dynamic EQ enabled.

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post #71609 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
there is no receiver that measures the speakers+subwoofer splice as part of Audyssey,.

Did Audyssey ever intend this to be or not?
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post #71610 of 71855 Old 06-25-2014, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
It's not an audyssey change, it's a D&M change. I think it happened a couple of years ago but not sure exactly when (it was never announced or documented), and AFAICT it's only possible using the web interface.
No web interface needed... at least with the X1000 and X2000.
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